UU Nominations (Round 4)

[JabbaTheGriffin]

It's the time you've all been waiting for! The time has come to choose new BL Suspects based on Smogon's criteria for banning Pokemon from a metagame. As a reminder, these criteria are:

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

1. You can nominate as many suspects as possible, provided you give good reasoning. Please Bold the Pokemon you nominate as Suspects.
2. While we will not be imposing a limitation on the number of Suspects you choose to nominate, we ask you to keep it to a reasonable number of nominations in your post.
3. Use your own reasoning and not something like "I believe that Rotom is BL because JabbaTheGriffin says so".
4. You can't nominate against a Pokemon, that is, you can't say "I don't want Honchkrow to be a Suspect".
5. Do not reply to other people's posts in this topic.
6. Depending on the quality of your arguments, your vote might not be counted. However, votes will be evaluated on a less technical, more common-sense basis than in previous Suspect nominations.
7. Only make one post. Edit all your Suspect nominations into that post.
8. Any posts that aren't nominating suspects will be deleted.
9. If you have any questions, please PM JabbaTheGriffin or reachzero.
10. Votes will not be counted until after this thread is closed.
11. While any and all users are open to nominations we ask for the sake of the integrity of the process that these votes be based on adequate experience and testing. Unlike previous tests, we will be utilizing Suspect Experience data (SEXP), so please do not attempt to nominate a Pokemon that you have not used or played against.
12. Don't be afraid to nominate Pokemon that have already been nominated.
13. It is an acceptable vote to bold vote "no Suspects". If you believe strongly that there are no Suspects in the current UU metagame, you may vote for no Pokemon to be Suspects.
14. This thread will remain open until December 2nd, 2009.

RAIKOU, FROSLASS AND GALLADE ARE AUTOMATICALLY GOING TO BE VOTED ON, PLEASE DO NOT NOMINATE THEM.

 

[petrie911]

Well, with Froslass already spoken for, I guess I have just one nomination to make.

Honchkrow--Offensive Characteristic

Honchkrow@Life Orb
Adamant 252 Atk/252 Spd/4HP
-Brave Bird
-Superpower
-Sucker Punch
-Roost/Pursuit/Night Slash

Honchkrow was decidedly not broken back when it was a suspect last time. But that was when it had no STAB above 80 power. With Brave Bird in its arsenal, Honchkrow has become a whole new beast. Few things can stand up to Brave Bird, and those that can Honchkrow can handle on its own.

Let's look at the things that resist Flying. We have Electric, Rock, and Steel. First, Electric-types. Since no Electric-type resists both Superpower and Night Slash, every electric-type here needs to be able to outspeed Honch to avoid the 2HKO.

68/0 Raikou
383 Atk vs 186 Def & 338 HP (120 Base Power): 172 - 203 (50.89% - 60.06%)

252/0 Rotom
383 Atk vs 190 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 169 - 199 (55.59% - 65.46%)

252/160+ Rotom
383 Atk vs 253 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 127 - 150 (41.78% - 49.34%)

So, both electric-type switch-ins take more than 50% just by switching in. Considering neither has a reliable recovery, this is really quite good, especially since Rotom risks switching into an OHKOing Night Slash. While Raikou is a good switch-in, sub/CM is a lot harder to pull off at less than 50% HP.

Next we have Rock- and Steel-type switch-ins. There are certainly more of those, but they all have a similar problem: Superpower. Not a single Rock or Steel type in UU is neutral to fighting; you have to go all the way down to Lunatone/Solrock before you find that. Damage calculations on common UU Rocks/Steels switching into Brave Bird then taking a Superpower.

0/0 Rhyperior--67% 2HKO after SR, 100% 2HKO after 1 spikes layer
383 Atk vs 296 Def & 371 HP (120 Base Power): 108 - 128 (29.11% - 34.50%)
383 Atk vs 296 Def & 371 HP (120 Base Power): 217 - 256 (58.49% - 69.00%)

252/0 Regirock--Always survives with Leftovers, 100% chance to 2HKO coming in on Superpower
383 Atk vs 436 Def & 364 HP (120 Base Power): 74 - 87 (20.33% - 23.90%)
383 Atk vs 436 Def & 364 HP (120 Base Power): 198 - 234 (54.40% - 64.29%)

252/0 Registeel--86% to 2HKO after SR, 100% to 2HKO after 1 spikes layer
383 Atk vs 336 Def & 364 HP (120 Base Power): 95 - 112 (26.10% - 30.77%)
383 Atk vs 336 Def & 364 HP (120 Base Power): 254 - 300 (69.78% - 82.42%)

252/252+ Omastar--84% to 2HKO after SR, 100% to 2HKO anything less than 252/196+
383 Atk vs 383 Def & 344 HP (120 Base Power): 84 - 99 (24.42% - 28.78%)
383 Atk vs 383 Def & 344 HP (120 Base Power): 224 - 264 (65.12% - 76.74%)

252/252+ Aggron--100% OHKO with Superpower after SR
383 Atk vs 504 Def & 344 HP (120 Base Power): 31 - 37 (9.01% - 10.76%)
383 Atk vs 504 Def & 344 HP (120 Base Power): 340 - 404 (98.84% - 117.44%)

4/0 Kabutops--100% 2HKO with Brave Bird, 100% OHKO with Superpower
383 Atk vs 246 Def & 262 HP (120 Base Power): 130 - 153 (49.62% - 58.40%)
383 Atk vs 246 Def & 262 HP (120 Base Power): 348 - 410 (132.82% - 156.49%)

So, yeah, things aren't looking good for Rock- or Steel- type switch-ins. None of them can come in on Superpower, and Brave Bird+Superpower at least completely cripples even Regirock/Steelix, which opens the door for so many other sweepers.

Lastly, lets consider generally high defense Pokemon. For example, let's use 252/252+ Donphan, the most physically defensive Pokemon in the tier that does not resist Flying

252/252+ Donphan--23% to 2HKO with SR
383 Atk vs 372 Def & 384 HP (120 Base Power): 172 - 204 (44.79% - 53.13%)

Yeah, and that's 252/252+ Donphan, a build that very few people use, since it leaves Donphan with rather poor offensive abilities. Only 23% of people even used Impish, which is required for Donphan to survive.

And that's it. Go to the UU list and order it in terms of defense. You'll find that every other Pokemon on the list is outsped and 2HKO'd by Brave Bird, if not OHKO'd outright. Faster things that can take a Brave Bird sacrifice too much bulk to be faster, and will end up at extremely low HP in order to take it. If they try to finish Honch off, Sucker Punch finishes them.

Probably the worst part about Brave Bird is that it opens up Honch to use Roost, letting it offset the recoil and keep coming back to punch more holes in the opposing team. Of course, it can still do a number on said team even without Roost, but it means a Stall team won't be able to stall out the Life Orb, making Honch that much more potent.

Basically, Honch is broken because once it comes in, you're going to lose a Pokemon, if not more than one. It's just way too much for the tier.

EDIT: Heysup pointed out my Registeel calc is wrong, and apparently defensive Omastar run 252 EVs rather than the 176 suggested in the analysis. Redid calcs, and it seems Omastar and Registeel now have a small chance to survive. Also added Donphan, to demonstrate how good Honch's damage output is.

 

[Huntofthelion]

Guess since the other three are auto-nominated I only need to nominate Honchkrow under the support characteristic. He is able to switch in rather easily, and once he's in at least one Pokemon on my opponents team died. Brave Bird + One of my Coverage moves literally 2HKO'd everything I came in contact with. I don't have any damage calculations to back this up or anything (and I would assume there is something out there that can be ridiculously specialized to take 2 hits), so this is based solely off experience.

The only downfall to Honchkrow is that to achieve everything it can, it usually dies in the process (Unless you run roost but even then it's still a pretty suicidal mon.) It is able to switch on on either Ground-type or Psychic-type attacks without taking damage, and it has nice defensive stats to be able to switch in on it's several resistances. His abilities are also pretty impressive, one giving him immunity to sleep and the other boosting his chance of landing a critical hit.

Honchkrow's move pool is enough to suffice. Brave Bird is going to be found on every set just for the fact that it severely damages almost everything. Superpower hit's Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon super effective (The best two resists to brave bird.) Sucker Punch gives Krow the priority it needs to be able to revenge kill as well as prevent itself from being revenged. Pursuit gives it a means of trapping frailer Pokemon that can't touch him. Roost allows for 50% recovery, which is important given Brave Bird's recoil and the SR weakness. Most Honckrow's will run a set of Brave Bird / SuperPower / Sucker Punch / Filler , with the filler move occasionaly being a Hidden Power used for additional coverage. Krow's impressive base 105 spA often goes overlooked, but it allows it to occasionly go mixed depending on what people are trying to counter it with.

So to sum it up, I think Krow needs to be voted due to it's ability to punch a hole in any team that allows for much easier sweep by his teammates. Let's face it, any time you can take away one or more Pokemon from your opponents team free of chagre, the rest of the match is much easier.

 

[Flashstorm1]

I'd like to nominate Honchkrow under the support characteristic for BL.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

The set in particular that makes Honchkrow BL is:

Honchkrow @ Life Orb
Trait: Imsomnia
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Superpower
- Roost / Night Slash / Hidden Power Grass

Ever since I've been using Honchkrow in the UU tier, I've been finding that it lures in specific key Pokémon, even being able to take them out in the process, as well as being able to blast through everything else with little to no difficulty. The most important factor in Honchkrow's ability to fulfill the noted tasks is all due to one move: Brave Bird. I've been finding that Brave Bird 2HKOes pretty much everything that doesn't resist Flying-type attacks, while even those that do still take a bunch from it (especially if they are frailer sweepers like Raikou).

From my observations, the most common switch-ins to Honchkrow have been Rhyperior, Steelix, Arcanine, and Registeel. However, all of these supposed counters bar Arcanine are hit super effective by another common move in Honchkrow's moveset: Superpower. Even though most of them will survive a Brave Bird followed by Superpower, depending on their EV Spread, they will be left too weak to be able to counter anything else.

Essentially, my argument for the nomination of Honchkrow for BL is that it opens up specific holes in the opponent's team for other sweepers to take advantage of, and if said counters (to Honchkrow) are not present on the opponent's team, then Honchkrow will have an extremely easy time firing off Brave Birds with little to no consequence. Basically, factoring in the counters from the previous paragraph, you'll find a list of some pretty common and strong Pokémon that can easily sweep once Honchkrow's counters are gone. A good example of such a Pokémon is Raikou. From the previous list, Steelix, Registeel, and even Rhyperior (occasionally) can counter Raikou; outside of that list, Chansey is pretty much the only thing that is guaranteed to beat it one-on-one, assuming Raikou is running Extrasensory to beat Venasaur and such. As such, due to Honchkrow having lured in Raikou's counters (since anything else gets KOed by Brave Bird) and having left them heavily crippled, Raikou would now be free to run through the opponent's team.

Another important factor to consider about Honchkrow is its frailty and very low longevity. However, Honchkrow does have access to Roost to replenish its health and repeat the cycle of wearing down the opponent's team with Brave Bird all over again. Since Honchkrow forces a lot of switches, particularly when it comes in after something else on the team has fainted, Honchkrow essentially gets a free turn to Roost, else the opponent risking being KOed by Brave Bird or Sucker Punch. From my experience, Honchkrow also got plenty of switch-ins into Venasaur, since Imsomnia pretty much nulled Sleep Powder and Honchkrow resists Grass and is immune to Earthquake.

That's basically it. Honchkrow for BL!

 

[Darkmalice]

I'm pretty sure I speak for most UU battlers when I nominate Honchkrow under the support characteristic. He is able to (at the very least) severely weaken opposing Pokemon, making it substantially easier for other Pokemon to sweep.

Honchkrow @ Life Orb
Trait: Imsomnia
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Superpower
- Night Slash / Pursuit

Honckrow can easily come in early game, when one of your Pokemon is killed, or by abusing its immunities to Ground- and Psychic-type attacks and Sleep (through Insomnia).

Nothing can swap into this without taking severe damage. Brave Bird easily 2HKOs most of the metagame, and almost 2HKOs every Pokemon not resistant to it. For example, max/max Slowbro is 2HKOed by Brave Bird after Stealth Rock damage 99.41% of the time.

Those that do resist Brave Bird are either Electric-type Pokemon, and those commonly used are all 2HKOed, like Raikou. These are then easily finished off with Sucker Punch (more on Punch later). The most common way for dealing with Honchkrow is sending in a Rock- or Steel-types - Rhyperior, Steelix, Registeel, or Regirock. All of these are weak to Superpower. Whilst they are not 2HKOed by Brave Bird + Superpower (usually), they all take severe damage from the combo, and will be too weak to counter anything else. With these checks gone, it is significantly easier for other Pokemon to sweep, for example, Swellow and Raikou, as these Pokemon are also usually checked by these Rock- and Steel-types. If these checks are removed prior to Honchkrow coming into play, then Honchkrow itself will find it much easier to blast holes into your opponent's team.

Honchkrow is very difficult to handle by sending in a faster Pokemon to OHKO it. It has to take massive damage from one of Honchkrow's attacks (cough Brave Bird), but this rarely works due to Sucker Punch. Even if the Pokemon comes in on a failed Sucker Punch or after Honchkrow nets a KO, the threat of Sucker Punch still exists. Even if the Pokemon survives Sucker Punch, it will take a large amount of damage in the process, and it may be too weak to check other Pokemon. Many Pokemon may, however, be KOed after this Sucker Punch. Attempts to bypass Sucker Punch are difficult, and these attempts usually become mindgames. If the Honckrow user suspects a non-attacking move, it can use a non-Sucker Punch move to hit the Pokemon. Every non-attacking move is at risk with this (Substitute will take its toll on the user). Sucker Punch also makes a great check for many Pokemon, especially against rain teams, protecting the team from offensive threats. Honchkrow's presence then poses an immediate threat to your opponent.

Very few Pokemon can reliably counter Honchkrow (the most common case is max/max Arcanine with Morning Sun, but even that isn't reliable in any non-Sun weather). Without one of these Pokemon, Honchkrow will leave holes in your opponent's team.

Despite the recoil from LO + Brave Bird, Honchkrow always has time to leave big dents in your opponent's team (partially thanks to its 100 base HP stat, but mostly because it deals too much damage too quickly).


Honchkrow just avoided being sent to the BL tier last time, but with Brave Bird, it is now truly able to easily rip holes in the opposing team that can be easily exposed by other Pokemon, making Honchkrow BL under the support characteristic.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

It's that time again...

Nominating Honchkrow under the Support Characteristic.

To start off with, looking at Honchkrow's extensive list of positive traits, it's not hard to see why it is a prime threat in UU. On the defensive side of things, it has a relatively high HP stat and very low defences, balancing out to give an overall defensive capability comparable to Froslass. This is not by any means special, but it is sufficient to allow Honchkrow to take a hit or two. On the offensive side of things, Honchkrow has Heracross's Attack stat and Mismagius's Special Attack stat, along with a good number of moves to take advantage of both to the full extent. Not only that, but Honchkrow also has two very good abilities, Insomnia allowing it to make a very good check to the common Venusaur as well as Super Luck heightening the power of its Night Slash.

Looking at what is currently, I think, the most popular set:

name: Physical Life Orb
move 1: Brave Bird
move 2: Sucker Punch
move 3: Superpower
move 4: Roost / Night Slash / Hidden Power Grass
item: Life Orb
ability: Insomnia
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

Honchkrow appears to have a move for any occasion. Brave Bird knocks massive holes into Milotic and Slowbro that try to switch in, 2HKOing both with Stealth Rock, which gives Fire- and Fighting-types such as Blaziken and Hariyama an easier time with the opponent. Sucker Punch is also a very powerful tool to revenge-kill faster threats, or else take a chunk of damage off a faster threat that attempts to revenge-kill Honchkrow itself, and even the threat of Sucker Punch can give Honchkrow a breathing space. Access to Superpower is also critical, as it gives Honchkrow a way to counter the common Steelix, Registeel and Regirock that try to stop it. These three Pokemon will take a large chunk of damage if they are your opponent's answer to Honchkrow, which is significant as they are used by many as the answer to a wide variety of threats, such as Scyther, Mismagius, Raikou, etc, and if they are weakened thus then the opponent's sweepers will almost always be much harder to stop.

Thus is Honchkrow's great skill - the ability to lure out, check, weaken or beat outright so many of the walls and Pokemon critical to many a team's defence against the powerful sweepers of Underused play in one. A hypothetical defensive core of Registeel, Milotic, Venusaur and Claydol, all used on the same team, all checking each other's weaknesses for the most part, can all be weakened or beaten outright by the average Honchkrow. Sucker Punch is another hole-opener, since most teams will find the best way to be rid of Honchkrow is either to revenge-kill it or let it grind itself down over time thanks to Brave Bird and Life Orb recoil, so Honchkrow has the magnificent opportunity to take down or weaken these faster threats, lessening the threat to the sweepers lategame.

In the last slot, Honchkrow can cement its place. Roost offsets all recoil, Stealth Rock and Life Orb damage, so waiting for Honchkrow to die is simply not a viable option, as it can heal itself and come back for more carnage later. It also rather helpfully gets rid of Honchkrow's Rock, Ice and Electric weaknesses for one turn, which can be useful against less powerful users of these moves such as Milotic and Claydol, although it does make you more susceptible to Venusaur. Night Slash is a more reliable choice to use alongside Sucker Punch for Dark-type STAB, but in most cases Brave Bird is sufficient as reliable STAB goes. The really interesting options here are Pursuit and Hidden Power Grass. Pursuit ensures that that weakened Uxie is going nowhere fast, while also ensuring that you will get rid of other, faster, weakened threats, such as CB Dugtrio locked in on Earthquake. Hidden Power rids you of cocky Rhyperior that can take a Superpower, opening another free hole in your opponent's stronghold.

Honchkrow is, simply put, one of the best wallbreakers in Underused, and its ability to stop both defensive and offensive threats is remarkable. Using Honchkrow can easily be used to win games, thanks to its tendency to work in very many situations, and while this is not, perhaps, banworthy in itself, Honchkrow certainly can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other Pokemon to sweep, and therefore I believe it is eligible for BL voting.

(Will edit with further reasoning later)

 

[phalanx]

I also nominate Honchkrow under the offensive Characteristic
the main problem with honchkrow is really the diversity, its one of those few pokemon that can run either ability and be efficiant, only other poke that has this sort of ability is bronzong, and that doesnt have the damage output to do as much harm, i know its not OU we are talking about, but it is a key factor in how it functions you can be punished heaviliy for predicting super luck only to waste a sleep.

and now to the other factors of honchkrow, the attack stats AND moves, it can run special or phyiscal even mixed to nail its counter, as shown in previous posts with hidden power grass with the other key points, it has some very powerful attacks to play with its 125 base attack in brave bird, superpower, pursuit, night slash, and if recoil is a problem drill peck, and of course it runs sucker punch is, of course stabbed and can work around the the base 71 speed to still do heavy damage.

while the pokmeon reminds me of the infernape in OU, with good attacks stats, lightish defences and some very good stabs and powerful attacks to go with them, what makes this stand out is the fact it has roost something which allows it to stay out even longer, while eliminating electirc rock and ice weaknesses, of course it gains bug and fighting, but there isn't really anything to take advantage of this, but unlike the infernape in OU, which is an awesome wall breaker, there is no sure fire poke that can just come in outspeed and remove it with little return thanks to sucker punch and of course, roost.
i wouldn't really put it in support, its capable of sweeping on its own

now for my second nomination, and this really needs doing.
I nominate Registeel under the defencive Characteristic
I dont see why this has been thus far overlooked as a nomination, while not doing much damage with its attacks, with the immence defence stats, it can easily just status most of your team, raise its attack and defence with curse, and then rest off damage, while this alone is not really a strong case, the fact is, the ammount of setting up it requires to dent, and you cant lower its defences as it has clear body.
now for some calcs (using metalkids so if they are wrong its the calculator)
now i know that registeel is supposed to counter some of these but these are very powerful pokes, and with toxic on your pokes.
all these calcs are on the UU set on the smogon page, i will try and get a decent spread of pokes here, highest SpA in the tier, highest attack, and common pokes
(252 HP 0 def and 156 spdef)
alakazam@modest 252SpA and choice specs
Hidden Power Fighting/fire 70 Damage Per Hit: 148 - 176 / 40.7% - 48.4%
Focus Blast Damage Per Hit: 254 - 300 / 69.8% - 82.4%
not a OHKO, and alakazam has the top special attack in the tier and a base 120 super effective move which is unreliable, hidden power is only a 3HKO

mismagius@modest 252SpA and life orb
Hidden Power Fighting/Fire 70 - Damage Per Hit: 110 - 130 / 30.2% - 35.7%
a 4 hit KO at best

Ryperior@adamant 252atk choice band
Earthquake Damage Per Hit: 402 - 474 / 110.4% - 130.2%
a OHKO but of course there is no EV's in defence on the registeel build for UU listed on smogon, and this a max attack base 140 with STAB, which is the highest attack stat IN UU, and of course this isn't taking into consideration any stat boosts.
Ryperior@adamant 252atk choice band
Registeel with +1 defence
Earthquake Damage Per Hit: 270 - 318 / 74.2% - 87.4%
no longer a OHKO and a strong drop in damage, registeel at +3 is barely a 2HKO
Gallade@adamant 252 ATK life orb
Close Combat Damage Per Hit: 380 - 450 / 104.4% - 123.6%
again huge attack and a huge STAB attack, a OHKO.
now for a poke without STAB
Honchcrow@adamant, 252 atk life orb
superpower Damage Per Hit: 254 - 300 / 69.8% - 82.4%


another poke with high attack but this time no STAb and it doesn OHKO, but while these calcs show clearly registeel can be beaten by physical, the metagame is already built to cover most of the physical attackers that would otherwise threaten registeel, slowbro, milotic, ghosts.
these calcs cover a 1v1 situation with strong attacks with no status boosts in play, have to consider curse in all of this of course and the damage output toxic brings, as well as Twave and screens, it outclasses chancey in every way, for me there is very little that can deal with this which can mean running pokes specefically to deal with it.

 

[Despotar]

As has everyone else,
I'm Nominating Honchkrow under the Support Characteristic.
His ability alone gives Honchcrow great promise,
along with stats, tuping, and movepool,
I think it's a bit much for UU.
With access to Sucker Punch, Brave Bird, and Superpower,
it's hard to stop.
It's hard to add to what every has said, but once again,
I nominate Honchkrow under the Support Characteristic.

 

[Scruffy]

I'ld like to nominate Honchkrow for the Support Characteristic. Everyone has made a pretty good arguement for why Honchkrow should be nominated, but I'ld just like to reiterate what they're saying from my own experiences:

1) 120 BP Brave Bird + STAB singly handedly takes out much of the UU metagame, or puts them into KO range for other pokemon on the team. Drill Peck never 2hko Donphan or Milotic (the most common switch-ins pre-HG/SS), but with Brave Bird, those pokemon cannot switch in safely or else they risk the 2hko. Honchkrow was a pretty good offensive force before, but BB is taking out its old counters, meaning an even better sweep for itself or other members of the team with the same counters (such as the UU fighters or offensive bulky waters like Feraligatr).

2) Honch is able to get into a match at any point in the game really thanks to its typing and ability (insomnia). Being able to come in on Psychic or Ground attacks for free means that Honchkrow has a pretty good chance of entering the battle many times during the match. Insomnia also makes Honch easier to switch in, and arguably the most common switch in to Venasaur. The chance to scare off threats and Roost on the switch means that Honchkrow can also start out fresh and start the rampage all over again.


Counterarguement:

1) We all know Honchkrow is frail, that's something everyone knows. But, with his access to Roost and ability to take resisted attacks (his huge base 100 HP lets him do that) means he'll be sticking around longer than it should. You could attack it, but then you suffer the obvious STAB Sucker Punch. I'm not saying Honchkrow is Jesus or anything, as you can try playing around it (in the same sense as playing around Mixmence in OU), but it usually dents huge holes in your team and takes out at least 1 pokemon.

2) Honchkrow is SR weak. This helps wear him down pretty fast as with BB recoil and SR, Honch won't survive much of the match if it continually switchs in. Now, this is a good point for keeping Honch UU; it has the potential to be out of the match really early. However, Roost can remedy this pretty successfully if played right as we all know Honchkrow tends to force a ton of switches since he can take out so many pokemon. LO recoil also adds to Honchkrow's longevity (or lack of), but again, being able to Roost it off means Honch has the chance to start all over again. And, just to be mentioned, even if the player doesn't want Honch to roost off damage and just decides to play suicidal with it, it is still going to put holes in your team. I personally believe Honchkrow is BL simply because little prediction is required to use him in order to use him effectively.

Anyways, I hope I touched on some key elements on why Honchkrow is definitely worthy of being considered BL and why I believe it is BL.

 

[franky]

Offensive characteristics:

I nominate Moltres under this category as it embodies the criteria. Moltres can quite literally sweep a portion of the metagame once it is brought in. A simple Life Orb set that looks like this can sweep a portion of the metagame.

Moltres @ Life Orb
Pressure
Modest / Timid Nature
252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe

- Fire Blast
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power Grass
- Roost

Moltres has fantastic bulk backed up with one of the highest Special Attack stat in the UU metagame. Its typing is a double-edge sword, as it brings some useful x2 resistances to Fighting-, and x4 resistances to Grass- and Bug-type moves but an awful x4 weakness to Rock-types and Stealth Rock. However, it does have a neat immunity to Ground-type hits. Taking all of this into account, this allows Moltres to threaten a portion of the Fighting-types, Grass-types, and Ground-types in this metagame. It also gives Moltres a free turn to use Roost to heal off Stealth Rock damage on the switch out. His type coverage is impressive, sporting good dual STABs backed up with Hidden Power Grass to deal huge amounts of damage of bulky waters.

With that being said, Moltres can now fire off its attacks and there is no such thing as a "surefire" switch in. With spikes support, Moltres can literally bypass its usual checks. Regardless, without spike support, Moltres still hits quite hard and can 2HKO any switch in with the right moves. Here are some damage calculations from a Modest Fire Blast:

Fire Blast

vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Chansey - 32.29% - 38.07%
vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro - 41.88% - 49.49%
vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic - 28.17% - 33.50%
vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumaril - 40.35% - 47.52%
vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Regirock - 26.65% - 31.59%

Most of these calculations are typical switch ins to Fire Blast. However, Moltres can easily 2HKO most of these guys with Hidden Power Grass. This isn't even with Stealth Rock in account. Again, with Spikes support, Moltres can dispose its usual checks with relative ease. Here are some calculations with Hidden Power Grass:

Hidden Power Grass

vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic - 44.67% - 52.79%
vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Regirock - 42.31% - 50.00%
vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill - 62.87% - 74.26%
vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro - 64.47% - 76.14%

That's just a gist of what Moltres can do with its attacks. Air Slash is another back up move on sticky situations and at certain times that additional flinch could hurt. So far, its safest check is Chansey and Azumarill as Chansey can survive by percentages but it can't do much in return. The number of Chansey's who hold Thunder Wave is very small. Seismic Toss does nothing to Moltres as it can easily Roost off the damage. Chansey can't Softboil or Wish for too long because of Moltres' ability Pressure. Azumarill is the best check at the cost of 40-47%. Moltres can simply switch in and next time around, Moltres can possibly OHKO with SR/Spikes support.

 

[Sc4rfCh0mp]

I believe that in the current UU metagame there are no Suspects. I have found through several battles that there is no real overcentralizing threats in the metagame that require a certain Pokemon to take it out. Most of the Pokemon that are currently being put up for Suspects can be beaten in the same way that Salamence is beaten in OU- prediction and careful switching. I see no reason why any of the suspects should be classified as BL, since they can not single-handedly (no previous damage taken) threaten a significant portion of UU from what I can see.

 

[Banedon]

Pre-note: I've played Pokemon seriously for like ... 2 months at most, so I don't have as much experience as some, but I'd still like to offer my 2 cents.

I'd like to nominate Honchkrow under the offensive characteristic. The reasons have largely been covered by the earlier posters, but I'll repeat them ...

Honchkrow kills too much in the metagame too easily. There are precious few Pokemon that can switch into Honchkrow safely and then threaten him away. Honchkrow's attacks hit for massive damage and his coverage is such that steel types for example (which would normally wall Dark + Flying) die to him anyway.

Go through the counters to Honchkrow available:

1. Sacrifice something to Honchkrow, then revenge him - The problem with this is that while it's normally reliable, Honchkrow has Sucker Punch. That's a base power 80 priority move coming off STAB and 125 base attack. If you have to eat this attack you'll be severely dented.
2. Sacrifice something to Honchkrow, then switch something with a priority attack in - this works if you have a faster Pokemon with a priority attack. There are a few Pokemon who can do this (Arcanine, Blaziken, Linoone).
3. Sacrifice something to Honchkrow, then switch something in faster than Honchkrow, has attacks to threaten Honchkrow and Substitute. Here you go in, fake an attack and make Honchkrow attempt Sucker Punch, then Substitute. Guarantees you a kill. There are also a few Pokemon that can do this (Alakazam, Mismagius, Raikou). It can be beaten by mind games, but to be fair the advantage is on the side with the Substituting Pokemon.
4. Have a Pokemon with Intimidate. Problem with this is that you usually need to sacrifice something to get the Pokemon in, and you might need to sacrifice some more to get multiple Intimidates off.
5. Switch in something on a resisted attack, and has enough bulk to survive one of Honchkrow's moves. There're few Pokemon that can do this. Two of the best walls in UU - Uxie and Registeel - both die to Honchkrow's STAB attacks.
6. Don't let him switch him in the first place. Tough to do, and impossible when you KO a Pokemon yourself.

Of course anything that involves sacrificing something to Honchkrow is less than ideal, which makes Honchkrow really tough to counter. I think it's fair to say that once Honchkrow switches in safely it's going to deal massive damage. He'll score kills and / or seriously hurt the other team. He's very effective indeed compared to other wall breakers, e.g. Mixfable is perhaps the most powerful wall breaker around, but Mixfable dies horrible deaths to anyone faster than her (which is pretty much any sweeper) since she lacks a priority move and has to gimp her speed to support the two attack spectrums. Blaziken isn't very fast either, and Vacuum Wave despite being a priority move has only 40 base power. Honchkrow just has too many strengths.

******

I'd also nominate Snover under the "something else" characteristic (or defensive characteristic I suppose, if I have to pick one of the three). He doesn't aid other Pokemon in sweeping but he aids other Pokemon in stalling. The obvious example is Walrein, whose 32 turns of guaranteed stall certainly qualifies under the "walls a significant part of the metagame" part of the defensive characteristic. But Walrein can only do his stall in hail, and permanent hail can only be summoned by Snover. Now if Snover's hail weren't permanent then Walrein would be a lot easier to beat, but this "if" is meaningless since it is permanent.

Mixed attackers are the first answer to stall teams. Of these, Mixedfable is the single best counter to hail stall I've found; this guy will almost single-handedly sweep all six Pokemon. The problem: he's so good a counter it's almost as though if you have him you win, but without him you lose (or have a good chance of losing). I don't think a metagame polarized around having such a Pokemon is a good thing. Other mixed attackers have their own problems: they often require Life Orbs. Since hail stall usually has multiple Pokemon all with Protect, you'll quickly be stalled out of health (hail + Life Orb recoil + your opponent switching to resisted attacks), or be brought down to easy KO range. Also: they die to Toxic Spikes / Toxic / Poison Point fast if they get hit by them, and there's entry hazards to consider as well.

The lesser answers to stall (Taunt, Torment, Encore, Stealth Rock to a lesser extent) still work, but you've still got to go out there and score kills to win games. You need to lay down entry hazards - Stealth Rock especially since it's effective on Ice Pokemon - then force switches. But hail stall being stall will have its own entry hazards, which you can't remove (Froslass blocks Rapid Spin). It could be that hail stall without Froslass will be manageable, but I haven't played in such a metagame so I can't rightfully say.

I think if Snover isn't to be nominated then Walrein certainly should be. There're few things that break Walrein's stall chain, and even fewer that break it without being vulnerable to Toxic (Spikes) / Hail. It's either nominate Snover or nominate Walrein, although nominating Walrein is rather like blaming person A (Walrein) for a crime person B (Snover) commited.

Just my opinion.

 

[LoveHate]

Before I begin I wish to apolagize for any mistakes I make in format this is my first time nominating.


The Offensive Bird:
I would like to nominate Moltres under the offensive category as it is able to muscle its way through the tier or rather flap its way. With great coverage / atk power, a healing move, and good bulk Moltres can sweep a greator part of the tier. The best example of this is in Life Orb Moltres.

Moltres @ Life Orb
Pressure
Modest / Timid Nature
252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Fire Blast
Air Slash
Hidden Power Grass
Roost

Besides his rocks weakness, Moltres has great bulk, one of the highest specail attackes in the UU tier, and speed to place it well above most of the common speed tiers in the UU. With such bulk and typing priority can't even take him down as he resists bullet punch, mach punch, vaccum wave, and can play around sucker punch. As seen he resists some of the most common forms of priority only having to be weary of Aqua Jet. Furthermore its typing allows it to resist fighting, grass, and ground which are some of the most used attacks in the UU metagame ground, fighting, and grass.
Examples: Average Movesets Statistics and Moves Used in the UU Metagame (September and October)
Earthquake 17.7% number one move in UU (Ground)
Superpower 6.0% still in the top twenty paired with close combat many times to come in on these fighting moves

Using these resistances Moltres can threaten the fighting, grass, and ground metagame. It is through raw power and resistances that Moltres can force switches. The switches allow him to compensate for his stealth rock weakness.
Side Note on Stealth Rocks as they are the main reason Moltres isn't OU:
Rapid Spinning has become easier in the past metagames. Through the use of yawn or foresight spinners are getting past the ghosts and getting rid of the rocks. Plus Rapid Spin is increasing in use as it is easier to pull off. Rapid Spin 6.4% Average Movesets Statistics and Moves Used in the UU Metagame (September and October)

Now that Moltres' bulk has been discussed and his Stealth Rock problem is easier to prevent; let's move on to the Offense that makes him broken. Having an amazing Specail attack stat coupled with two fantastic dual STABS for UU; Moltres can cover almost if not every pokemon in UU with the addition of Hidden Power Grass that allows it the severly dent many pokemon one would consider counters.

Now how do you go about countering this Ledgendary Bird? This is quite a difficult question.

Without spike support

1.Chansey would be the guess as she is the specail defensive princess (Blissey is queen). However with the great ability of pressure Moltres can stall Chansey out of her utility as she can do very little to Moltres in return. Furthermore Moltres is able to take a clean 35% of Chansey's health.

2. Bulky Waters: Milotic or Slowbro. Oh wait Hidden Power Grass 2HKOs them both

3. Offensive Bulky Water: Azumarill is the "best" counter to Moltres. However Azumarill is only a counter at full health as if he falls below 75% he is taken out by HP grass. Not really a counter when it must be at 100%


Well thats it with the key flaw of stealth rocks much easier to deal with, great specail attack, unwallable moveset, enough bulk to get the job done, and the speed to beat out the critical speeds of the tier Moltres has broken the metagame.

I am not sure if I need calculations of mine as Franky has listed several of the key ones to show the power of Moltres.

 

[Itsuki]

Honchkrow

I would like to nominate Honchkrow under the offensive characteristic and the support characteristic. Honchkrow's is able to power through many teams opening holes for others to sweep. Teams must be prepared to take on Honchkrow or else they'll often get dented by Honchkrow's arsenal of attacks. One set in particular that teams must be prepared for is Brave Bird / Sucker Punch / Superpower / Roost. Honchkrow's typing and ability, Imsomnia allows it to come in on most attacks without receiving little to no damage. It is immune to Psychic and Ground attacks, and can come in on Sleep Powder, Hypnosis, Shadow Sneak, Shadow Ball, etc.

Honchkrow's main form of attack comes in Brave Bird, which enables it to OHKO-2HKO a vast majority of Pokemon in the UU metagame. Even Pokemon that resist it can be 2HKOed such as Raikou and Kabutops who both support a good amount of bulk for such offensive Pokemon. True Brave Bird is often called a suicidal attack but due to Honchkrow ability to force switches it often finds time to Roost off damage. I often found Honchkrow's Brave Bird as an attack that does not take much to no effort.

Common switch ins to Honchkrow are Intimidate Arcanine, Rhyperior, Omastar, Steelix, Registeel, and Regirock. However most of these switch ins often fail to Superpower. Hidden Power Grass is also used on some Honchkrow in order to deliver swift KOs to Omastar and Rhyperior. So most players facing Honchkrow are often forced to play around it by switching until they can take it out. Then again I did mention Roost...However with these defensive walls gone or weakened, teams become vulnerable to the Pokemon that those walls were used to counter: Swellow, Gallade, Mismagius, etc. hence why I suggest it for the support characteristic.

Faster Pokemon also suffer the same fate. They can take on Honchkrow to an extent, that is if they retain a reasonable amount of health after switch into Brave Bird. Sucker Punch helps Honchkrow pick off weakened faster Pokemon making him harder to take on if the opponent is forced to that situation. The only real way for a faster Pokemon to switch in on Honchkrow is to switch into Sucker Punch, Superpower (if you take little to no damage), or Roost or switch in after a Pokemon faints, which backs up the reason for the support characteristic

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Honchkrow:

Honchkrow @ Life Orb [Adamant]
Ability: Super Luck
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
-Brave Bird
-Sucker Punch
-SuperPower
-Roost

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Honchkrow can severely damage any Pokemon in UU thanks to unresisted coverage between its 3 main attacking moves. Practically nothing can switch in and kill it without taking at least 40 - 50+% damage from an attack.

There is nothing that can switch into Brave Bird and not take a large amount of damage from it besides Flying-resistances. Steel, Electric, and Rock are therefore the only safe switch-ins to Brave Bird.

vs. Min HP / Min Def Raikou
Brave Bird: 53.58% - 63.24%

vs. Max HP / Max Def Bold Rotom (is outsped by Honchkrow)
Brave Bird: 37.83% - 44.74%

vs. Max HP / Min Def Steelix (common case)
Brave Bird: 20.90% - 24.58%
SuperPower: 55.93% - 66.10%

vs. Max HP / Min Def Registeel
Brave Bird: 26.10% - 30.77%
SuperPower: 69.78% - 82.42%

vs. Min HP / Min Def Rhyperior
Brave Bird: 29.11% - 34.50%
SuperPower: 58.49% - 69.00%

And Honchkrow can still dent said Flying-resistances. Even though Honchkrow cannot 100% OHKO a number of Pokemon at full health, it has the ability to shave off a lot of their HP, which is enough to open up a sweep from another Pokemon. Honchkrow outspeeds most of the Pokemon who resist Brave Bird and can SuperPower (Brave Bird / Sucker Punch in Rotom's case) to tear gaping holes in them before dying or being crippled. While a Honchkrow user won't necessarily always just use Honchkrow to kamikaze on walls, the fact remains that that option is always open to them.

Essentially, Honchkrow's extremely powerful Brave Bird leaves little options for good switch-ins to it. The majority of those options take a number from SuperPower, and Honchkrow has access to Sucker Punch for anything faster than it.

Honchkrow's sheer power allows it to break walls effectively, easily opening up sweeps for other Pokemon, which is why I think it fulfills the Support Characteristic

 

[Heysup]

Ok, here is my largely redundant Honchkrow nomination.

I think that Honchkrow is BL under both the Offensive and Support Characteristics. I'm nominating it under two different characteristics because it has options to do both.


Honchkrow @ Life Orb
Trait: Imsomnia
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Superpower
- Hidden Power Grass / Roost

Applies to both characteristics:

Honchkrow's ability to switch in is very underrated, mostly because of its poor defenses. Speaking of poor defenses, since when was anything with base 100 HP called "frail". It really isn't frail, Honchkrow can switch into a whole slew of resisted attacks and even some unstabbed neutral attacks.

Honchkrow's main aspect that allows it to switch in so easily is its typing. Flying is one of the best types to have, and "NO STEALTH ROCK" is a silly argument. With Earthquake being the most common attack in the metagame, I think it's safe to say Honchkrow will be able too switch in quite often. Considering the fact that Spikes are stupidly common in this metagame as well means Honchkrow will have a far easier time switching in than most of the metagame. Dark adds a whole other immunity to Honchkrow, as well as the important resistance to Dark- and Ghost-type attacks (Spiritomb isn't hurting anything). The kicker is Insomnia. This allows Honchkrow to switch into physical Venusaur too easily, as well as anything else that relies on Sleep.

Support:

Instead of spamming calculations at you guys (I'm sure you've memorized them by now heh), I will just simply state why Honchkrow is able to fulfill the support characteristic.

Honchkrow, being an easy Pokemon to switch in, will almost always get a chance to completely beat the shit out of one of the foes walls. As shown by calculations, Honchkrow can destroy almost any Pokemon with minimal prediction, and can take the chance to destroy walls such as Registeel, Steelix, and others just by simply kamikazing itself. If the foe doesn't send in a wall, they will undoubtedly lose a Pokemon since Honchkrow OHKOes almost every other Pokemon.

This shows that Honchkrow is able to remove walls too easily, allowing Pokemon such as Raikou, Sceptile, and Swellow the chance to sweep a significant portion of the metagame with essentially zero work.

Offensive:

Now let's take the same scenario, and instead of suiciding Krow, we simply switch it out. No wall is safe switching into Honchkrow's onslaught once, but twice? Once Honchkrow comes in again, since it's such a great wall breaker, it will often just destroy its counters on the spot. "Counters".

Honchkrow is build to be able to manhandle any sort of offensive team lacking a semi-strong fast priority attacker. Sucker Punch will OHKO a huge portion of the metagame, and almost all of the offensive metagame. The ones it doesn't OHKO with just SR, it will easily OHKO with Spikes...which are easily provided.
---------------------

Overall Honchkrow is clearly broken under Offensive and Support characteristics, albeit only one at a time.