USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V3

[Moutemoute]

Bisharp to A+

I think Bisharp is fine in A and I definitively don't think it should rise to A+. Even if Offense got better thanks to it, Bisharp lacks of Defensive utility and has a lot of common checks like Hydreigon, Krookodile, Cobalion, Terrakion, Infernape, Kommo-o.. All this Pokemon can effectively deal with Bisharp which means you didn't need some dedicated Pokemon to deal with Bisharp because most of the time, your will already have inside of your team smth which can naturally check Bisharp. I think, Bisharp is fine in A. It's a really good Pokemon but A+ is a little bit too high for it.

Blissey to A

Blissey is such a splashable Pokemon which can feets in a lot of archetype and brings so much utilty to a team. Besides the fact that Blissey can almost 1v1 every Special Sweeper in the tier, it can support a team thanks to its amazing Movepool including Wish, Healing Wish, Heal Bell / Aromatherapy, Stealth Rock, Toxic etc.. Blissey is a staple in Stall or Fat builds but it can also fits in Balanced and even in some Offense. Without a doubt, Blissey is a threat and you need to be careful when you build if you don't want to be blocked by it.

Primarina to A

I'm on the fence for the rise of Primarina. Even if it's one of our scariest Wallbreaker and its defensive set is really good and useful, I think it kinda struggle in the current metagame where Blissey and Empoleon are really common. I also think that the introduction of Zeraora in the tier isn't really an advantage because Volt-Turn are even more common now. Of course, Volt-Turn is good to bring Primarina on the field but in the same way, it pressures a lot Primarina. Yeah Primarina can counter almost any kind of Hydreigon but Hydreigon can U-Turn on it which means you take some cheap damages and your opponent can bring smth to deal with Primarina. I don't know if a rise is a good thing atm or if we should wait a bit more.

Toxicroak to C+

I strongly disagree with a drop of Toxicroak. This Pokemon deals so well with Tentacruel, Empoleon, Suicune, Alomomola or even Blastoise-Mega that its niche is in my opinion enough to keep it in B-. Even if Pokemon like Slowbro and Jellicent are more common right now, it definively does not change the fact that Toxicroak is a really good and underrated Pokemon. Yeah it struggles with Ground Types but the fact that it can deal on its own with the majority of UU Bulky Water Pokemon is in my opinion enough to not drop it.

Tsareena to B

As itsjustdrew said. Primarina has a huge 4 MSS which sucks a lot for a Pokemon like that. The main problem on Tsareena is that it can't do all that you would like it to do. Power Whip and Rapid Spin are essential and then you just have 2 more slots and it's a problem because you would like to fit so much in this 2 slots : Knock Off to punish Amoonguss / Gligar ; U-Turn to keep some Momentum ; Synthesis which allows to Tsareena to keep a good Staying Power ; High Jump Kick to deal with Bisharp or even Aromatherapy for utility etc.. Even if Tsareena is a great pick, I don't know if its 4 MSS is just too much of a pain to let it rise to B.

Steelix-Mega to B+

Hell yeah make that big boy rise ! Steelix-Mega is an amazing pick in the current metagame. It's typing allows it to reliably check Pokemon like Zeraora, Latias, Bisharp, Altaria-Mega etc.. It's amazing Stealth Rocks user and its Curse set allows it to be a pretty good Win Con. Not gonna repeat what I said in my previous post except that Steelix-Mega is definitively a B+ rank material.

 

[Freeroamer]

Hold up, when did Rapid Spin become essential on Tsareena when it’s best set is the CB set which should pretty much never run Spin. For sure you can run Spin and run into the flaws that have been mentioned above but ranking Tsareena based on this set rather than the CB set wouldn’t reflect the metagame at all. This isn’t to say that CB Tsareena is A rank or anything like that, far from it, stuff like Amoonguss Altaria and Togekiss are big hindrances for it but as I’ve now seen 2 posts that seem to not acknowledge this as a set, let alone discuss it I felt it needed to be pointed out. I don’t think this has got any worse btw, an unconditional revenge killer for Scizor (CB HJK shreds all but bulky af Zor) and Bisharp will always be welcome, and it’s not particularly hard to support (Rotom-H creates a nice VoltTurn core with this, particularly with further support vs Dragons or even twave rotom itself). It’s seen some variety with sets in snake also, with Pak recently explaining how he used Lum berry so he could use the benefits of Tsareena as his grass while not fearing burns from Scald as much.

 

[ehT]

Moutemoute Re: Your Prima reasoning. Special walls are everywhere yeah but part of the reasoning I initially gave in suggesting Primarina rise is that Specs (can't speak for defensive but one time I ran into it w/ Blastoise offense and got smashed lol) makes stupidly good offensive cores w/ our like 90 Fighting-types. Consistent Prima answers are so limited and so easy to pressure with the Spikes builds that are everywhere rn that I think its chief flaw as an offensive mon is pretty easy to cover for. All that the core of Spikes mon + Specs Prima + CB Terrak / Taunt Kommo-o / NP Ape needs really is like some anti-offense stuff (Rotom-H, Aero, etc) and you're golden. Honestly Primarina's real biggest problem is how damn slow and delicate it is. It's bulkier than it looks but a lot of the time it can feel like using Crawdaunt without the priority, which I agree can be a problem when it's your best switch-in to a Hydreigon spamming U-turn. Again, though, I think that's easy enough to compensate for between our removal options + how stupid its typing is + how easy it is to prey on the flaws of its best answers.

 

[revelations]

Making a VR post at 12 in the morning at a hotel on a tiny phone lmao so I prolly won't be able to cover too much and can't get sprites lol.

Stakataka to B : Agreed
I've never liked Trick Room as an archetype, as it's always super setup based and is akward in general. Like BAYB said, Diance or any other SR mon right now outclasses it's SR set. The rise of the fighting types such as Lucario rising rn doesn't help it either. Overall, Staka doesn't fit the B+ criteria sitting next to stuff like Lucario and sticks out oddly.


Blissey A- -> A: Agree
Hell yes. This thing is a freaking monster on stall; it's what keeps stall apiece being a monster special wall and like itsjustdrew said, stall wouldn't be half as good. It's the literal bread and butter of modern stall and fuck yeah rise this thing now.


Here's a nom of my own:

Lucario to A-

I know this thing just rose, but make it rise again lol. This thing is an insane stallbreaker rn, both it's physical and special set are insane. Even 1 SD/NP makes it's attack go to behemoth breaker, and even if it doesn't OHKO it's dual priority STABs easily pick off anything that's weakened and it's Z can nuke anything that isn't immune It is an absolute beast and deserves A-.

Thanks for reading my 1AM post . Peace.

 

[SilvioGuacamole]

I haven’t written a VR post in a hot minute, so here we are

Bisharp A -> A+: Disagree - I think A is fine for Bisharp at the moment. As others have mentioned, it’s checks are numerous and common so I really don’t think it has the warping effect on teambuilding that the mons that make up A+ have. Balance and BO seems to be adjusting pretty well to the influx of spikes and the fact that mons like Gligar and Rotom-Heat are steadily getting better really hurts Bish, so until something major changes Bish doesn’t warrant A+.

Blissey A- -> A: Strongly Disagree - I think that a lot of posts have been looking at this the wrong way: Blissey has always been the face of SM UU stall and no one is disputing that stall would be anywhere near as effective as it is now without Blissey. We should be debating whether stall itself has gotten better (because let’s face it, Blissey is ranked largely based off how well stall is doing at the time) or whether Blissey has developed at sizeable niche outside of stall. If anything, in the recent weeks stall has gotten worse with the increased usage of mons like Terrak, Lucario, NP Infernape, Celebi and mixed Kommo-o, as well as the revival of spikes offense with Bisharp’s reintroduction. I also don’t think Blissey has developed a much more significant niche outside of stall. Chansey currently sits at A- in the OU VR, and if anything has more of a niche outside of stall than Blissey does. Chansey is the face of stall in OU, similar to Blissey down here, but is also used frequently as a cleric and rocks setter on offense. Chansey offense is a viable archetype by itself, and while Blissey has seen a small uptick in usage outside of stall I don’t think it deserves A rank.

Primarina A- -> A: Agree - Prim is in a really good spot right now, enjoying great synergy with rising mons like Rotom Heat and as mention, Terrak and Kommo-o. The fat set is possibly the most consistent Hydrei answer around (flash cannon neutrality is a godsend) and the difference between the two sets means incorrectly guessing which Prim you’re facing can put you in a horrible spot. Just rise it

Tsareena B- -> B: Agree - This thing loves the balance cores running around at the moment, spinning comfortably on staple rockers like Hippo, Empoleon and Pert. Bisharp’s drop has also helped it a ton, as it fits really well on spikes offense and checks Bish nicely too. It’s 4MSS has also been exaggerated a little imho, at least for the band set. While Knock is appreciated for ghosts, Lati and Amoongus, banded u-turn punishes the latter two while the former take a fuckton from power whip (and Chandy and Gengar saw negative usage in snake so there’s that) and as Freeroamer mentioned, Spin is far from mandatory on teams with strong removal already. Meadow Plate/Fight Z synth spinner does suffer somewhat from 4MSS but it still keeps me off vs most balance builds, and does so far more reliably than banded. Anyway this is versatile, strong and appreciates meta trends a ton so tbh I wouldn’t be against a rise to B+ so I’m fully behind a rise to B

Yeaaaa that’ll do me for now, I don’t play enough with/have no opinion on the other mons on the slate so might come back and add to this later

 

[Twilight]

So I wanted to make a VR post to give my opinion on most of these but also make a nom myself.

Primarina A- --> A: Agree - I have been using a ton of Primarina lately and I agree it's in a fantastic spot with the common trends in the meta especially due to it's raw power and fantastic typing. There are very few fairy types in the tier that can provide so much defensive utility checking Kommo-o, Mega Sharpedo, Crawdaunt and to an extent Terrakion which not to mention are all rising in popularity, thanks to the surge in viability of Spikes HO. The bulky set is an excellent Stallbreaker that can effectively PP stall a lot of annoying walls like Empoleon as well as being an effective status absorber. While I have a lot of experience using the bulky set, I still acknowledge how devastating Specs Primarina is. If there are no secure counters to this thing it will tear apart squads lol. All in all it's warranted a rise.

Mega-Steelix B --> B+: Agree - MegaLix is amazing rn, it is a great if not better answer to Latias, Bisharp and Zeraora than Mega Aggron. While it's ability isn't all that effective it trades this off for a very valuable Ground typing instead allowing it to not care about Electrium-Z Latias which not many Pokemon can reliably wall. While I don't have much experience with MegaLix it serves a similar role as Aggron as an effective hazard setter and deserves a spot alongside it.

Lucario B+ --> A-: Agree - Lucario is an incredible stallbreaker especially it's Nasty Plot varient. Unlike the other common NP Fighting type Infernape, Lucario doesn't have the issue of breaking past common Fairy types found on almost every team. Not to mention it's typing, while frail, allows it to handle huge threats like Bisharp which recenty dropped. It's stab priorirty allows it to sweep or pick up the KO on any weakened foe which makes up for it's base 90 Spe. While I have no experience with the SD set I'm sure it is just as effective especially with the abundance of dark types in the tier in combination with Steadfast.

Bisharp A --> A+: Disagree - I also don't believe Bisharp should rise while it is a staple and has allowed HO to become a much more reliable archetype there are an abundance of checks to it and minimal amounts of sets it can. Both BO and Balance have easily adapted to the drop of Bisharp with Pokemon like Chesnaught rising in popularity. While there are a lot of experimental sets out there Bisharp suffers greatly by dropping coverage for Low Kick or Pursuit as in return you usually must sacrifice it's wallbreaking potential by forgoing SD. While it has had a lot of presence in the UU tier I think it's fine where it is.

Volcanion B+ --> B: Agree - So this was mentioned a little while back but I just wanted to bring attention to it. Just like Primarina, Specs and Z Volcanion can be an absolute monster for teams to switch into, but I agree that it's very inconsistent and is hard to fit onto a team unless explicitly building around it. Not to mention with dragon types like Hydreigon rising in usage as well as Scarf Krookodile being everywhere it has a tough time breaking through and is very easily revenge killed due to it's lackluster Speed + weakness to SR. It seems very out of place imo and for now should drop until something drastic enough brings it back into the limelight.

Stakataka B+ --> B: Agree - Again another Pokemon in B+ I think is very out of place. Trick room is a very niche style in the UU tier which can only be so effective which really doesn't help Stakataka out. Not to mention Kommo-o and Gligar are rising in usage which hard check this thing. There is also not much reason to warrant using this thing as a defensive SR over MegaLix, Aggron etc. Not much else i'm gonna say about this thing but definitely should drop.

As for the rest of these noms I don't use Blissey or Toxicroak at all so I won't comment on them, and i also agree with Tsareena rising to B but I posted about that before. Anyway here is the Pokemon I think deserves a rise:

Cobalion A --> A+ - Honestly this thing deserves to sit in A+ with it's muskateer brother, Terrakion. While unlike Terrak, which focuses on its raw power Cobalion brings so much to a team both offensively and definsively. With the recent drop of Bisharp it's become one of the best answers to it as well as Pokemon such as Mega-Sharp, Scizor, Crawduant and to an extent Hydreigon due to it's incredible dual typing. Cobalion is also extremly splashable on almost any team due to it's ability to set-up Stealth Rock and to check the threats mentioned above, but unlike most Pokemon it doesn't become "dead-weight" after this because of it's access to Swords Dance. It becomes a phenomonal breaker that can muscle past common walls like Swampert, Tentacruel, Amoonguss, Aggron, Primarina etc. with either Fightinium or Steelium-Z.
It also has access to a wide variety of utility moves such as Taunt and Volt Switch which in certain scenarios can be beneficial, as well as Rock Polish which can turn it into a potent cleaner on HO teams. It isn't reliant on a Z-move either with it effecitvely pulling off Rocky Helmet to chip at Scizor or Shuca Berry to lure Scarf Krookodile or get the potential 2OHKO on Mamoswine etc. Another option I personally love is Stone Edge which is an effective way to lure and remove Moltres as well as 2OHKO Rotom-H or OHKO at +2.

For all of these reasons I think Cobalion merits a rise as it works extremly well in this current meta, though I am curious to hear what you guys think, that is about it for me sorry for the long post lol ^_^

 

[Sabbio]

Coming out of the shadows to share some of my thoughts.

Bisharp A to A+: Disagree

While Bisharp is a very very good 'mon, I don't really think it deserves a rise. This is mainly for three reasons:

• Despite having the ability defiant, I don't feel like it actually punishes defoggers. Despite one may very well argue that the fact that forcing defoggers to click their attacking moves instead of Defog is more than enough, considering that the more common defoggers in the tier are Empoleon, Rotom-H, Moltres, Hydreigon and Altaria, the latter generally only on stall/stallish teams, Bisharp doesn't really want to come in directly on any of those to actually take advantage of the defiant boost. To risk Bisharp to get a +2 from Defog and instead get Scald burned by Empo or to take an Overheated by Rotom-H, a Flamethrowed by Moltres or even a Fire Blast from Altaria/Hydra is reckless to say the least, which is why personally think that this limits his role as a defog deterrent.
• The tier adapted very strongly to it. Silvio Guacamole expressed my thoughts exactly, so I won't bore you with them.
• It's not, as of now, very splashable. Despite having a very good typing able to punish Krook locked into Knock/Pursuit, Scizor locked into BP or Hydra locked into Dark Pulse or into -2 Draco Meteor (which is very scary being Bisharp such a threatening 'mon) I found it hard to justify it over Scizor or other Steels or even Dark-types on bulkier builds like balance/bulky offense. Not being able to take advantage of its Steel typing is pretty annoying during building, and I personally found it awkward to fit into teams that are not HO/Heavy Offense. This lack of splashability, especially considering that A+ mons are all very splashable (with exception being Terrak), doesn't make it for now A+ in my eyes. I can see though that in a month or two more Bisharp spike-based balances or semi stalls could start to pop up, "wishkiller-ish" is what I have in mind. (TL,DR: Basically what Moute said but hey I try)

Primarina A- to A: Agree

Specs Prima is an immense threat for every team that doesn't have both Empo and Amoong in team, able to take very easily advantage of its typing by coming in on common mons like Hydra and non-PJab Kommoo sets ( :clanger: ) and wreck havoc is outright terrifying. Takes a bit of prediction to do so more times than not but is still a giant threat. Also fat Primarina is so good to check actual monsters like Crawdaunt, NP Nape and Dragonium Lati other than act as a fighting-type check and a status sponge in general. Its stall matchup is also very nice.

Mega-Steelix B to B+: Agree

Being able to come in and actually not care about every Latias set, Bisharp, no Superpower Scizor among the others is massive for every bulkier team. The Brave Curse set is absolutely lethal, expecially when coupled with Wish support from Florges. If sand is up something is generally dying from a +1 STAB. Its bulk is comparable to Mega Aggron too when taking Filter into account, therefore being a Steel actually being able to stand its ground (heh) against Electrium Lati with basically as much bulk as Aggron (Special Defense speaking) is why I prefer Lix more often than not.

Lucario B+ to A-: Agree

Luke is so good. I'm a huge fan of Luke and I've used it a number of times. Its NP sets decimate every balance team lacking Tentacruel (Slowbro dies to +2 All-Out Pummeling after rocks) or Moltres, both of which aren't hard to wear down, the latter especially. Being able to beat the two most common scarfers like Krook and Hydra makes it somewhat hard to rk too. To be able to always beat Sharpedo thanks to Vacuum Wave is also huge. I didn't really use SD but it sounds very scary versus offense. Doesn't quite pack the same breaking power but it can sweep way easier.

Volcanion B+ to B: Agree

Not much to say on this, yeah specs does a ton to everything but its slow and I'd rather use other stuff to break; relies on two inaccurate moves and is sr weak. I agree with all Twilight said.

Stakataka B+ to B: Agree

The rise of Fighting-types like Luke and Chesnaught really hurts this thing, also the tier is just as flooded with Water-types and even more slow Steel/Ground-types as it always was makes Stakatakatakatakataka's job that much harder. Offensive has to run Rockium Z which can be pretty burdensome for many teams. I can see it having a niche on stall as a Moltres check, but that's really it. It's still very threatening with the right team members and when some conditions are met, though these are often hard to achieve.

Mienshao B- to B: Agree

I haven't used it very much but I think that its rise to B is due. It still has its flaws though but I've come to love Lix+Shao+Water-type balanced cores. TSpikes are also very nice as its able to rack up poison damage very quickly thanks to Fake Out and by Knocking off lefties from fighting resists like Tenta and Amoong, even though they might be hard to fit.

 

[Pak]

Cobalion A --> A+ - Honestly this thing deserves to sit in A+ with it's muskateer brother, Terrakion. While unlike Terrak, which focuses on its raw power Cobalion brings so much to a team both offensively and definsively. With the recent drop of Bisharp it's become one of the best answers to it as well as Pokemon such as Mega-Sharp, Scizor, Crawduant and to an extent Hydreigon due to it's incredible dual typing. Cobalion is also extremly splashable on almost any team due to it's ability to set-up Stealth Rock and to check the threats mentioned above, but unlike most Pokemon it doesn't become "dead-weight" after this because of it's access to Swords Dance. It becomes a phenomonal breaker that can muscle past common walls like Swampert, Tentacruel, Amoonguss, Aggron, Primarina etc. with either Fightinium or Steelium-Z.
It also has access to a wide variety of utility moves such as Taunt and Volt Switch which in certain scenarios can be beneficial, as well as Rock Polish which can turn it into a potent cleaner on HO teams. It isn't reliant on a Z-move either with it effecitvely pulling off Rocky Helmet to chip at Scizor or Shuca Berry to lure Scarf Krookodile or get the potential 2OHKO on Mamoswine etc. Another option I personally love is Stone Edge which is an effective way to lure and remove Moltres as well as 2OHKO Rotom-H or OHKO at +2.

For all of these reasons I think Cobalion merits a rise as it works extremly well in this current meta, though I am curious to hear what you guys think, that is about it for me sorry for the long post lol ^_^

I just wanted to briefly touch on this since when I made that post a couple weeks ago, I had originally planned to mention a Cobalion drop. However, I realized right before that Bisharp had just dropped, but I think my initial reasoning does a decent job of explaining why I think Coba should stay where it is. I talked a bit about this with Pearl a decent while back but yeah, I'll be hitting on 2 main faults with the fighting goat thing.

Cobalion: remain A
1) Awkward defensive typing - While there are definitely aspects of Fighting / Steel that are useful, such as effectively hard checking Scizor, Bisharp, and Mega Shark like you mentioned, it can also be difficult to justify defensively when putting it as the Steel-type on your team. It doesn't resist any of Flying, Fairy, or Psychic, all of which are much much appreciated out of a Steel. You don't even soft check mons like NP Togekiss, the returning DD Mega Altaria, and the big one being Latias. Even with a number of soft checks to Latias alongside Cobalion, like Krookodile or your own Mega Altaria, I legit never feel comfortable against it without another, more defensively oriented Steel on the team. But at that point, with another Steel and the usual Rotom-H (which helps handle stuff like Alt/Toge) alongside it, I just generally prefer something like Terrak that can get way more immediate pressure out of that team slot. Coba is weak as hell initially and can struggle to make progress early, sometimes making it hard to justify.

2) Indirect rises of strong counterplay - Terrakion's huge rise in popularity has ironically hurt Cobalion's offensive capabilities a lot in the process. Strong Fighting checks in Gligar, Pallosand, and mainly (Mega) Slowbro have all seen a good amount of usage lately, as evidenced by Snake 2's UU stats. I touched on it earlier, but Cobalion can struggle to do much damage early, especially against formidable answers possessing reliable recovery. Without a Z move at its disposable (@ rocky helmet/shuca berry), it is a really tall task. Sure, the sandcastle and Gligar take a sizable chunk from boosted Steelium Z, but running that means you are worse off versus other stuff like Hippowdon, Mega Aggron, and Swampert, as well as worsening its matchup against one of its main defensive selling points in checking Scizor.

Fitting it on functional teams can be pretty awkward at times and the rise of stronger Terrakion counterplay has definitely taken a toll on its offensive capabilities. Picking between a bunch of items you want can be really annoying as well. While it is obviously still a strong Pokemon in the current meta, it has some flaws that prevent it from rising any further in my mind.

 

[relicofficial]

My ideas

Roserade: C to C+: Roserade's utility with Spikes (4th fastest available and one of the only viable ones in UU), good Spe and SpA, 3 solid abilities and so much set variety, making it hard to predict

Metagross: C+ to B- (at least): God I adore AgiliGross! Oh yeah, it has relatively solid bulk, a moderately good typing, decent coverage and all that good stuff.

Venomoth: C- to C: Moth is so underrated.

Aerodactyl-Mega: A+ to S: Mega Aero is a great mon that should be considered for nearly all teams. TauntRock sets are great for catching your opponent off-guard.

EDIT: Sorry if my ideas aren't good. I'm still relatively new to competitive

 

[avarice]

My ideas

Roserade: C to C+: Roserade's utility with Spikes (4th fastest available and one of the only viable ones in UU), good Spe and SpA, 3 solid abilities and so much set variety, making it hard to predict

Metagross: C+ to B- (at least): God I adore AgiliGross! Oh yeah, it has relatively solid bulk, a moderately good typing, decent coverage and all that good stuff.

Venomoth: C- to C: Moth is so underrated.

Aerodactyl-Mega: A+ to S: Mega Aero is a great mon that should be considered for nearly all teams. TauntRock sets are great for catching your opponent off-guard.

Roserade doesn’t appreciate scizor being omnipresent, and while fast, is still outsped by plenty of mons capable of killing it. Klefki is a better spikes setter generally while toxic spikes are used better by Tentacruel and Nidoqueen. At one point I built around CB Daunt + Spikes Roserade and Roserade as the spiker was just really limiting.

I haven’t seen or used Metagross recently, and for good reason. Moltres is a big threat to it and Metagross can’t do much of anything back as an offensive steel (Scizor has QA and Cobalion has stone edge). Metagross doesn’t like the popularity of slowbro either at all.

Venomous is one of my favorite mons but it’s pretty much unusable outside of veil. Linoone, a consistent veil abuser, is in the same rank as venomoth so I think they’re fine where they are. The settlers of veil are also low on the VR as the playstyle struggles with the popularity of hippo.

Aerodactyl is a consistent threat in the tier thanks to its high attack and speed stats, however it isn’t very versatile and struggle a lot with bulky waters. Taunt + Rocks is just a waste of potential as itd much rather run a all out attacking trapping set. Utility sets like Taunt + Rocks are very team specific.

 

[Twilight]

My ideas

Roserade: C to C+: Roserade's utility with Spikes (4th fastest available and one of the only viable ones in UU), good Spe and SpA, 3 solid abilities and so much set variety, making it hard to predict

Metagross: C+ to B- (at least): God I adore AgiliGross! Oh yeah, it has relatively solid bulk, a moderately good typing, decent coverage and all that good stuff.

Venomoth: C- to C: Moth is so underrated.

Aerodactyl-Mega: A+ to S: Mega Aero is a great mon that should be considered for nearly all teams. TauntRock sets are great for catching your opponent off-guard.

While Maero is extremly good I disagree with it rising to S. These are my main reasons why:

1. While it provides a lot of speed and power to a team it really isn't all that versatile. Maero is extremly predictable in terms of the sets it can run usually being AoA or Hone Claws. You have also brought up a very cool set but while you can be a nuisance to shut down certain walls like Hippo or Gligar you innevitably have to give up coverage to do so. In general Maero struggles breaking past a lot of bulky Pokemon and cores such as Mega Aggron and Slowbro. Imo it also isn't as versatile as the other S-tier Pokemon in the sense that they are all extremly splashable on almost any archetype while Maero isn't. Maero is only really effective on HO and BO, maybe occasionally Balance but that doesn't make it splashable enough

2. The next huge reason is due to a certain Pokemon that also sits in S-tier being Scizor. Scizor is on almost every team you run into and for good reason. No matter what Maero set you are running you will always be revenge killed by this monster which is another reason I don't think it is in a spot to rise.

3. My last thing is about the lack of utility or presence it can provide unlike the S-tier pokemon. Maero while having a bolstering Atk stat it has no way to effectively be a good sweeper or cleaner unlike the power provided from SD Scizor or CM Latias. Defensively it also can't give much to a team other than switching into Moltres for example. While it does have access to Pursuit imo CB Scizor and Krookodile just do this role better without using up a Mega slot, i'm not saying Pursuit Maero isn't good but it struggles to compete with these Pokemon in this instance unless it fits the team requirments. Which isn't the case for the other two mentions as they are so splashable on squads.

As for the other Pokemon I have no experience with them other than Roserade. While maybe it could rise with hazard stacking being good, it faces a lot of competition with Klefki and the up and rising Chesnaught. I also don't see how Agility Metagross will allow it to break through it's common checks of bulky water and fire types. It also doesn't like the large amount of Fighting and Dark spam as of right now. As for venomoth idk anything about that Pokemon. So the main two I disagree with are Metagross and Maero rising, the others I can't speak much about.

 

[dingbat]

Stay in A: Although its impact on offense teams cannot be understated, I don't see Bisharp as a threat on par with the A+ ranks right now due to the influx of Fighting-types, all of which either outspeed Bish + resist Sucker Punch or just straight up doesn't give two shits about its attacks (mainly Chesnaught), and as mentioned earlier (by Pak iirc), some of the big non-Fighting threats also generally have a good matchup.

Stay in A-: Fighting-types, rise in offense, etc; I also don't think its presence outside of stall teams is enough to push it past A- right now because imo its success there hasn't been proven enough yet.

B+ --> B: Literally the only half decent set worth using right now is Brave Nature Choice Band (idk why no one uses it still), which even imo isn't b+ worthy; otr is weak as dicks atm.

C --> C-: Niche af

C- --> UR: Full tr is dead again

Other notes:

• Agree that Terrakion > Cobalion in general because CB terrak is stupid af
• Mega Aero isn't S rank, but I disagree with a couple of the points (which may or may not be nitpicky). Versatility/team fit has never really been a huge issue for it as its biggest asset almost always lies in its ability to bully weakened/relatively frail 'mons at a level of efficiency that's second to none, and its seen a sustained level of success in every team archetype (although M-Aero stall is definitely rare nowadays)
• Make :clanger: great

 

[Zapcre]

Noob here, but I will make a nomination
Heliolisk to C+
Heliolisk's niche comes from dry skin and an amazing movepool. It can use surf and ohko or 2hko Krookodile and 2hko Hippowdon. It can also chunk anything that resists electric with STAB Hyper Voice and the volt switch both hurts like hell and build momentum. Here are some low elo replays (but u get the idea)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-824318208
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-824334582
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-825292189
I'm Zapcre obviously
fun fact heliolisk has a 4% usage in ru 1760 but around 1.5 in ru 1630

 

[dingbat]

Gonna address the Heliolisk nom since I’ve actually been testing out the said LO set out of curiosity.

Heliolisk blurb

Personally I’m not completely sold on whether Heliolisk should actually be ranked; while it definitely has qualities that do separate it from its most direct competitors in Megaman/Zeraora, my main concern with Lisk is whether top players actually consider its niche as something usable. One thing going in its favor is that its secondary normal typing actually matters quite considerably, since it gives Lisk an avenue to deal respectable damage to most Ground-types with a fairly spammable STAB as opposed to some coverage move; additionally it only really needs Thunderbolt/Hyper Voice/Surf in order to optimally cover much of this meta, so moveslots are not an issue here unlike Zeraora. I'll also agree that Dry Skin is kinda cool too if it can catch something like Prima or Volcanion locked into their water moves. However, it suffers from some (very obvious) big issues that the two direct competitors in Zeraora and Mega Manectric either suffer to a much lesser extent or not at all. Aside from the very situational use of Dry Skin, defensive utility is basically absent on it, which is a massive liability. Its paper thin physical defense makes it much more easily revenge killed/pursuit trapped; even worse is that it gets 2hko’d by CB Scizor’s Bullet Punch, despite it being a resisted move. While 109 speed is decent, it falls short of two huge benchmarks in Latias and 115s (Starmie, M-Doom, etc.), the former of which is a huge issue if it's running Calm Mind. It also can't really afford not to run Life Orb due to its lack in initial power; running Choice Specs compromises its biggest asset as an offensive threat and running any other item means it's straight up weaker than Mega Manectric. If it does end up getting ranked (again, I'm not completely sold), C- is the absolute highest it will go.

Power comparison/CB BP calcs:
252 SpA Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 130-154 (32.4 - 38.4%)
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 153-180 (38.1 - 44.8%)
252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 169-200 (42.1 - 49.8%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heliolisk: 135-159 (50.9 - 60%)

Other shit I've formed some sort of opinion on:

A- --> A: Literally hate this annoying pos, but I definitely agree with this; both specs and defensive have benefitted considerably from the rise in the fighters.

B+ --> B: 50-50 on this since I could very well be inaccurate on this, but some of the trends that lifted Chesnaught up are starting to fade just a little (mainly due to Bisharp/Zeraora fully settling into this meta); while it still performs extremely well against the significant balance/BO cores involving 'mons like Hippo, Pengu, and Krook, some old threats like Mega Manectric that were impacted by the drops and gave Chesnaught some degrees of issues are starting to re-emerge. Additionally, the big fighters are all generally running sets right now that Chesnaught in one way or another has trouble checking.

Idk, are people really still using this on stall? If yes, I guess leave this as is, but if not, then ya may as well nuke this with Cresselia.

 

[Hilomilo]

Just a few ideas incoming. It's been a while since I posted and there's some stuff I'd like to address. Hope you guys enjoy reading! :)

Rises

Froslass C- -> C+/C: Froslass Spikes has received a lot of exploration and proven success on ladder in recent weeks, and I think that its strength as an archetype would be better reflected by rising Froslass to be above a fellow Spikes setter in Roserade or at least alongside it in C. Froslass's unique tools all come together super nicely for it to function as arguably the most reliable suicide lead the tier has to offer. Between its Ghost-typing, Taunt, and STAB on Ice-type attacks, it can very easily deter attempts from a lot of popular removers, like Hydreigon, Empoleon, Gligar, and Starmie, to remove its Spikes. Destiny Bond is also a massive boon that if played correctly, can allow you to permanently prevent the opponent from removing hazards if used against a foe like Rotom-H or Hydreigon. It also has a lot of utility as a solid way of punishing Pokemon that think they've been invited in by Froslass for free setup, like Bisharp and Terrakion, and is a decent tech alongside Icy Wind for taking out stuff like Zeraora and scarfed Krook. Overall I just think that this thing has a lot going for it and can currently capitalize on its several handy tools really well in the metagame, and this has been reflected by its more frequent inclusion on a lot of HOs in recent weeks.

Drops

Hippowdon A -> A-: Hippowdon still does its job well, but I think that a drop is appropriate right now considering that it isn't so much the premier defensive Ground-type it used to be. Gligar, Nidoqueen, and Palossand have all received a lot of recent exploration that has earned them more inclusion on Water-/Ground-type cores often seen on balanced builds, giving Hippowdon a fair amount of competition and more heavily pronouncing some of its shortcomings, like being a shakier answer to Terrakion and Zeraora than the aforementioned Pokemon. With moves/abilities like U-turn and Sheer Force in their arsenal, some of Hippowdon's competitors are also more well equipped to punish or at least maintain momentum against a lot of common Ground-type switch-ins, like Hydreigon, Latias, Togekiss, and even Rotom-H, which despite having a shakier matchup than the other listed examples, partially eats into Hippo's niche as well as a relevant Electric-type that can more comfortably take it on through proper prediction and tech than, say, Mega Manectric. Right now, while still great, the recent rise in Electric-types more capable of taking Hippowdon on alongside the niches its increasing competition can edge it out with in some scenarios makes A- reasonable in my eyes.

Suicune A- -> B+: Suicune still has the potential to be a really annoying Pokemon for a lot of different archetypes to deal with, though it's felt a lot more outside of the metagame than placement in A- would currently suggest. Mega Slowbro has given it a healthy amount of competition and proven more worthwhile in some scenarios due to the perks of Regenerator pre-mega and simply being a better check to a wider variety of meta-relevant threats. Celebi gradually occupying more of a space for itself in the last couple months, Zeraora's introduction, and a lot of other Water-types, like Tentacruel and Empoleon, proving worthwhile in tournament play has also eaten into its niche some. While I'm not totally sure on this change, I just don't think Suicune's current relevance and teambuilding impact is reflective of where it's ranked when compared to stuff like Infernape and Kommo-o, especially considering its pretty lackluster usage in most respects.

Rotom-C B+ -> B: I LOVE me some mowtom and it hurts me to have to nom it down, but right now I don't think the meta favors it very much. Rotom-H provides it with a lot of competition and generally provides more meta-relevant niches that Electric-types are fitted on teams for these days. Heat's typing is just more applicable in a metagame where Flying-types, Scizor, and Mamoswine are all fairly important for offenses and balances to fit checks on their teams too. Rotom-C's biggest niche as an Electric-type, its ability to punish Grounds efficiently, is also less relevant now that Hippowdon is really the only common Ground-type it can take advantage of super reliably, given that Gligar, Krookodile, Nidoqueen, and Mamoswine can all punish it to varying degrees of success. It just feels like a less reliable pick with niches over its main competition, Rotom-H, that simply aren't as advantageous as in metagames past. A drop sounds due.

Talonflame B- -> C+: Big Linda adequately takes advantage of Scizor still, but I don't really know what else it has going in its favor for B- to be reasonable anymore. It really struggles doing anything of worth to either Slowbro form, doesn't put up well with Rotom-H and Zeraora being popular picks, faces more opportunity cost in a metagame where Moltres is a consistently strong pick, and struggles for setup opportunities more than in metagames past given that it doesn't take advantage of the tier's pool of top threats nearly as well as when Breloom and Serperior were around. I still think it can be a deadly sweeper under the right circumstances, but those circumstances have become harder for it to achieve and it's had generally lacking usage for a long time now. I think it's fair ranking it alongside stuff like Feraligatr and Cofagrigus.

Metagross C+ -> C: This guy really struggles for a niche and its weaknesses that were already present in the metagame have been further compounded by Bisharp coming down. It both competes for a teamslot with Bisharp and struggles to perform any of its designated roles as well with it in the tier in general. Overall its lacking power, continuous struggle to find a definitive niche, increasing competition, and general awkwardness is enough for me to believe that not even C+ accurately represents how mediocre and hard to justify it is in the current metagame.

As far as some other opinions people have voiced in the thread go, I really don't think now is the best time to drop Chesnaught. The arguments brought up in favor of lowering it were fair but I still think Chesnaught Spikes builds have a lot of merit due to the utility its typing and moveset allows it to provide in nearly every matchup. Zeraora and Bisharp are still very important parts of the metagame, while checking other present threats in Krookodile, Crawdaunt, Sharpedo, and a decent amount of Scizor sets. It maintains solid general matchups against a lot of different popular archetypes and its utility still has the same value as when it rose to B+, so for now I'd wait to see if meta trends disadvantage it more than they do since I don't know that anything's changed enough for dropping to be fair just yet. Stakataka is meh right now and really shouldn't be in the same rank as Aggron, and Mienshao's niche has definitely become well pronounced in this metagame but B is the highest I'd raise it since it still runs into issues regarding its matchups against bulkier builds and prominent stuff like Togekiss and Altaria.

That's it from me regarding VR stuff! I'd like to close by just saying that this is my 500th post on Smogon, and I'm really grateful for some of the things this site has done for me that I really wouldn't have ever thought it would do. Don't wanna make this post much longer and wanna try keeping this relatively short and sweet so imma acknowledge some people in a hide box:

ty frens

palkia246 Nuked eht Sage vivalospride Amane Misa Kink Eyan Highways A Cake Wearing A Hat martha Xayah GMars Leo Martin Corporal Levi OP Nineage vooper Jox PD MK007 Fille crusty Quote Rakan Colonel M Pearl Gummy Drew itsjustdrew bebo7788 pokeisfun faded love Juuno Panther-T Adaam Accelgor Hogg dodmen DraconicLepus dingbat BackAtYouBro sam-testings MeButYou82 Altariel von Sweep Plas sparrow Jordy there are honestly probably some people I'm forgetting but I'd like everyone tagged here and more to know that you have been great friends, mentors, or teammates for me at some point in my time on this site and I've appreciated being given the opportunities to work with you, talk with you, and receive help and advice from you. You've all played important roles in allowing me to greatly enjoy my stay on this site and while a lot of us aren't really in contact anymore, I just hope you know that you've all positively impacted me in one way or another, be it through helping me grow or even just providing me with an easy person outside of my real world to talk to, befriend, and confide in. You're all amazing and part of why I'm where I'm at now. Thanks everyone :)

 

[Darksafadao]

Hey, I'd like to share some rankings I think could change

B-->B-

I believe this is a natural decline right after Hydreigon become S rank worthy. Chandy can be a really fearsome breaker and has an interesting typing, but recently the Hydreigon spam has really hurt it from what I can see, mainly as now Hydreigon stall is somewhat popular, hurting its main niche as a stallbreaker. Being a poor Scizor answer due to being rocks weak and not really bulky also doesn't help it.

B+-->B

Daunt is still very hard to switch into, but I believe the meta learnt how to adapt to it a bit, with the Hydreigon spam hurting it too and balance teams with Hippo+Empo finding ways out of it, such as Altaria.. Also Kommo-o's recent rise in usage doesn't do it any favors.

B+-->B

With the Daunt, Zeraora, and Bisharp hype dying (the latter one not as much as the other two), Chesnaught kinda feels awkward to me, as it allows many scary breakers to come in and setup into it, such as Lati, Togekiss, Moltres, Nidoking, and Celebi (which usually can nab a kill on the archetypes Chesnaught fits at) and I dislike how it allows many Defoggers to come into it and remove its Spikes which usually are very important for teams that rely on it for them, examples of those being Gligar, Moltres, and Altaria. (I talk a bit more about this here)

 

[dingbat]

A few more interesting noms I wanna make/address before I take my foot from the gas pedal here:

A+ --> S: At this point, there's no questioning the fact that Terrakion has become one of the most centralizing forces in this meta. Its unparalleled combination of speed + wallbreaking ability has carried it to the point that it now consistently threatens to mow through teams with either its Choice Band set or its Swords Dance sets, no matter the team archetype the opponent utilizes. Although it lacks the defensive pedigree that the current S ranks bring to the table, it's imo definitely heads and shoulders above the rest of the A+ threats right now and as such, I think it's due one more raise :).

A- --> A: Nasty plot, among Infernape's arsenal of really usable sets right now, is crazy good right now, as it has not only been able to effectively pressure most of the defensive mons in this meta (or straight up abuse teams that lack good resists like mega alt/tentacruel/fat Primarina), but also hold strong even against offense as Vacuum Wave/Mach Punch currently has good coverage against much of the faster relevant threats. Overall, another mon I'm seeing as a step higher than the rest of its subrank right now.

A- --> A: Gonna bring up :clanger: gang again because this meta has continued to do it tons of favors. Its mixed set in particular has continued to impress at dismantling cores and despite the defense drops that its strongest moves may cost Clanger, it's still one of the most annoying threats to actually kill, which speaks a lot for its overall durability on its own despite lacking recovery moves.

B+ --> A-: 50-50 on this nom as well. The main thing going for it right now is clearly the rise of Spikes offense as it continues to be an important staple in a good portion of those teams, and its ability to spread status along with the Spikes is always appreciated with the meta shifting a bit more offensively.

C+ --> C: Even with the Zeraora hype slowly dying down, things continue to trend downhill for Raikou as it still finds itself largely unable to keep up with this current meta.

Kinda indifferent about Hippo since I've really enjoyed builds with Sandstorm support lately, but I also agree that Gligar's rise has definitely compromised Hippo's influence in this meta to a certain degree.

Lass imo is definitely more reflective of C+ than C atm

 

[Moutemoute]

From A to A-

I agree that Hippowdon isn't as good as before. The rise of Primarina does not help it and it's almost forced to Run Toxic if it wants to beat Rotom-Heat (which runs a lot Toxic on its own) on 1v1. In the other hand, Gligar deals with it if it runs Toxik just as Scizor which can use it to SD+Roost. I feel like Hippowdon has a really huge 4 MSS in the current Metagame and it doesn't allows it to shine as much as it used to. It also struggles a lot vs Roost + Taunt Hydreigon which is more common than before as well as Mixed Kommo-o which is insanely good at the moment. There is in my opinion to much trends against it.

From A- to B+

In my opinion, Suicune is a really underrated threat that can 1v1 a lot of match thanks to its VinCune set or CroCune/RoarCune sets. Even if Celebi is more common at the moment I feel like that Suicune has a plethora of opportunities to set up. Even if it struggles vs Tentacruel and Empoleon, their lack of recovery and the fact that they are pretty easy to pressure and chip allow Suicune to fulfil its role with more ease than you may think.

From B to B-

Chandelure really struggles in the current UU. The fact that Hydreigon and Krookodile are very does not help it at all. There is too much Pursuit support in the current Metagame and a lot of Pokemon can deal with Chandelure like Hydreigon, Kommo-o, Terrakion, Krookodile, Primarina, Empoleon etc.. It's definitively too rough for it and it should drop for this reason.

From A+ to S Just ban it already

Terrakion is probably the scariest Pokemon to deal with and the best way to pressure Bulky archetypes which are really common atm. It has an insanely good MU vs a lot of defensive staples like Empoleon, Togekiss, Steelix-Mega, Blissey or Rotom-Heat and its sheer force allows it to break through a lot of Pokemon like Sylveon, Tentacruel, Altaria-Mega, Hippowdon, Alomomola, Amoonguss etc.. SD + Sub is without a doubt its best set because it punishes so hard Switch-in vs it. Rockium Z and Fightinium Z give it an insanely powerful nuke which can tears apart almost the whole tier. It's also super hard to send an answer vs it because Rockium Z and Fightinium Z have different checks which almost force you to scout for its Z-Move if you don't want to throw away a Pokemon. The fact that there is basically one Pokemon to deal with (to a certain extent) shows how centralizing Terrakion is. I think it definitively deserves S rank because like Scizor, Hydreigon or Latias, you need to have something to deal with. Terrakion is definitively above all A+ ranks.

From A- to A

As I already said it, the metagame is really Bulky atm and Mixed Taunt Kommo-o has a incredible potential among this metagame by being able to pressure almost every defensive Pokemon thanks to its great mixed STABs and access to Taunt. Thanks to its typing, it can check Pokemon like Zeraora, Rotom-Heat, Bisharp, Terrakion to a certain extent but also Infernape, Cobalion, Krookodile and Crawdaunt. This Pokemon brings some much offensive and defensive utility to a team that it should definitively rise to A. It's probably the only Pokemon which can act as a really good Stealth Rocks setter while still being able to pressure Pokemon thanks to Taunt / Close Combat and (Z-)Clanging Scales.

From A- to B+

I feel like this Pokemon is better on paper than anything else. I found it really mediocre in the current tier even if Plasma Fist allows it to threaten Pokemon like Empoleon or Tentacruel. It has a huge 4 MSS and struggles a lot to break through some Pokemon without Life Orb. However, with Life Orb, it is really easy to shut it down. Most of the time, I really struggle to make it work. It's not a bad Pokemon for sure, but it definitively lacks of power and it's a main issue for a Pokemon like that. Also, the fact that Altaria-Mega is super good and common at the moment make it worse for Zeraora because it can't beat Altaria-Mega without smth like Life Orb Iron Tail or Bulk Up Z-Bounce and it's not really worth to run this moves because this lowers so much its ability to pressure other key threats.

 

[Roseguardin]

From A- to B+

In my opinion, Suicune is a really underrated threat that can 1v1 a lot of match thanks to its VinCune set or CroCune/RoarCune sets. Even if Celebi is more common at the moment I feel like that Suicune has a plethora of opportunities to set up. Even if it struggles vs Tentacruel and Empoleon, their lack of recovery and the fact that they are pretty easy to pressure and chip allow Suicune to fulfil its role with more ease than you may think.

So sorry if I'm not understanding, but are you advocating for a drop for Suicune with this post?

Edit: nevermind, turns out I missed the nomination somehow! Sorry!

 

[sims796]

I believe the poster disagrees with the notion that Suicune should drop based on the given assessment.

 

[MunchlaxAndChill]

Blissey A- -> A Disagree. I find Blissey difficult to fit on most teams since it often hurts team synergy. The stall options in the current UU meta are not very good so if anything I would like to see this go down to B+ or stay A-. Trying to fit it on balance is often difficult since it slows down the rest of the team (hitting back on the issue of synergy) and it often has difficulty coming in, overall leading to giving away momentum to the opponent.

Primarina A- -> A Agree. Primarina is currently one of the most useful pokemon in the metagame. Specs is very good, but in recent months the defensive rest talk set has emerged as a great option and it fits rather easily on most teams. It is very capable of checking numerous threats in the metagame, such as the notorious clanger (clanger deserves to be at least A ranked btw).

Palossand C -> C+ Agree. Palossand's typing and great bulk are very useful in the current UU metagame. So much has been said about how broken Terrakion is, and this pokemon is as good as it gets for walling terrakion. It is immune to CC and resists Edge, it can come in rather easily and get up rocks, and along with its good defensive stats it has access to reliable recovery in shore up. I think C+ is a fair spot for a bulky rocker with access to recovery, status moves like toxic, and a typing that is capable of dealing with pokemon like terrakion, coballion, and stakataka well.

 

['sei.]

hi again

been a bit since i posted anything on the forums, but id been planning on gettn more active and theres no better time to do that than now i suppose. a couple of things i agree and disagree with so i figured id try to make my case. ill try making my posts as legible as possible for all my intellectuals out there.

Discussion Points​

A- to A Agree
This thing's got two sets going for it, and both are potent in their own right. Looking at the company it has in A-, I'd say it consistently outperforms a majority of them, given that it fulfills its role (whichever it may be) pretty effortlessly with the incredible typing it was graced with.​

A- to B+ Agree
Suicune's still good, and that's a fact. But most of its peers to-be in B+ are equally good in their own right in my opinion, and I don't particularly think it stands its ground being in the same rank as Celebi, Rotom-H, and (hopefully formerly) Primarina given what they can do in our current meta-game. Suicune is still a prominent threat but I feel like some of the tier's newer additions in M-Bro and Zera just aren't doing it any favors.​

Nominations​

B to B+ / A-
In my eyes this mon is criminally underrated at B; it does well vs. some on-meta trends rn, including CB Terrak (w support), NP Celebi (most non-ep variants, which is trending), Togekiss, M-Aerodactyl, Rocks Taunt Kommo-o, and Lucario, just to name afew. This mon is by no means versatile, but can be utilized on any playstyle in my eyes, ranging from HO to Stall bc of the defensive utility that its typing can provide as well as offensive utility it can provide given its support. No reason for Doub to be B when it outperforms most of its B peers in my opinion.​

B to B+
Another pick I feel is underrated here is Gar. People running it are fully aware of how this pursuit-crazed meta can hinder it so fail safes are built in, you face a sub Gar and it'll have a similar effect to sub Nidok. They're both scary in their own right, but sub Gar prevails at getting a sub up and getting rid of some good counterplay, from Scarf Krook to Sucker Punch Bisharp. That argument in of itself is by no means Gengar's main attraction, I just think it's fair to point out this mon having more to offer than its already variable line-up, especially in this meta-game.​

 

[Sickist]

I've been noticing that Terrakion has been nommed for S alot recently, However, I feel it's not quite worthy of S rank. Although I can agree it is above A+ mons, but it's not versatile enough to be S. S- seems more the place for Terrakion as it has very few checks, Huge offensive capabilities, a stellar, barely resisted type combination, and Blazing attack and speed stats. However, Terrakion is very 1 dimensional and only has 2-3 sets, which are all predictable. That being said, I would get behind Terrakion being moved to S- rank, but not pure S rank.

Edit: This is not a nomination, this is just my personal thoughts, just to be exact.

 

[Schpoonman]

Versatility has not and never will be a requirement for S, only pure efficacy. The ability to run multiple sets can improve viability, but rank is not dependent on it. Terrakion is clearly better than every other Pokemon in the tier in dealing damage, and it deserves its spot in S for it.

 

[Taptricity]

Prepare your anuses buckos because I got a nomination that’ll rock your world. (along with a couple others but they’re kinda/maybe irrelevant compared to this one)

Latias to A+
Alright here’s the big one fellow brethren. You might be asking, “Ewwwww BAYB we already had two shitty meme noms involving the S rank why do you think we should drop Latias???” but hear me out, I have my reasons. I have been finding it to be increasingly difficult to justify a slot for Latias. There is a difference between a mon’s presence influencing the entire tier and then a mon having so many answers that it gets overwhelmed, and I find Latias to be shifting into the second option. The Pursuit heavy meta combined with Hydreigon’s presence and getting caught in the crossfire of rising Fairy usage due to Hydreigon’s presence has overwhelmed Latias. I’ve also found Latias’s more offensive sets to be more useful over support sets.

This brings me to another point in Latias dropping: consistency in the variety of sets. Scizor and Hydreigon have found multiple sets to still remain consistent that make it immensly difficult to determine what they are at team preview. Latias has lost this sort of virtue as the Scarf and the Defog set to an extent have fallen out of favor. When you see a Latias, it shouldn’t be hard to already know that it’s an offensive variant and it shouldn’t be difficult either to scout whether it’s Calm Mind or BoltBeam.

I’ve also found Hydreigon’s overall support for a team to be far better in the long run. Hydreigon has found itself pulling off Scarf and Defog sets that Latias sadly cannot safely do anymore. Hydreigon is also far more unpredictable with the experimentation of multiple Z-Moves on the Defog Roost/Taunt Roost sets. The only thing that should really surprise me from a Latias is Surf to handle checks like Mega Steelix and other Steels.

I just don’t believe that Latias shouldn’t be S anymore and that the metagame has stomped on its splashability and versatility a little bit. Again, don’t get me wrong, Latias is still really really really good but it’s just not S rank in my eyes.

I know that this nomination opens up a Pandora’s Box of controversy but I firmly believe that Latias doesn’t deserve its placement.

The other noms:

Mamoswine to A-
Now I really like Mamoswine but if we’re going to be nomming stuff like Mega Manectric and Hippowdon down due to them facing much rougher competition, then why not Mamoswine? Mamoswine has currently been facing tough competition against the Clanger as it is far more effective at preventing opposing hazards and then getting yours on the field. I do believe that LO Mamoswine shouldn’t be setting up rocks but then it’s damage output is underwhelming. The current basic HO team also incorporates Clanger over Mamoswine. Overall the increase of competition and dropping of it on main HO teams warrants a drop.

Rotom-Mow to B/B-
Retired metagame trends called, they want their lawn mower back. Seriously me and many people can agree that you will hardly ever use Mowtom over its toasty counterpart. The only time I’ve ever seen it being used is tournaments is when you need the lawn mower to counter your opp’s teambuilding habits. You could even make a case for this mon to B- because it’s pretty ass atm but I think B is a good start for its descent down the VR.

Well time for the VR to be active as fuck for the next week...