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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
I feel that while pokémon themselves weren't the protagonists of BWs story, that they had an important function in the plot because of team plasma/N. It's a more human centric story because it's about humans ideals and their place in the world alongside pokémon, so they need to be more featured. You're right about dppt though lol
I agree this is a big flaw abt more recent pokespe arcs. The older ones weren't that great, it's a simple shounen manga etc etc but the pokemon of the protags were as much of characters are the protags themselves. Red's entire team, Greens charizard, blue's jiggly & ditty, yellows entire team again, Gold's aibo/exbo/sunbo, silvers sneasel & murkrow, crys mega and archy. They all had at least one pokémon that was involved in their character development and story.
Things start falling a bit with rse imo. While ruby and emerald were given teams that have a lot of thought put into them, sapphire got the short end of the stick just like her. Her pokemon were less developed and often only had one or two showcases in battles, but not much else. They still get decent stuff, but her starter Toro for example falls really flat compared to Ruby's zuzu and emerald's sceptile.
By dppt, the pokémon slowly became more of backgrounds/tools. Each dexholder was assigned one partner pokémon that would be more present in the arc (Pearl with Chatler, dia with Lax, Platinum with Piplup). But the rest of their teams feel more like random catches that they get for battling (Pearl literally grabs 3 random mons to fill his team in the middle of the battle and they're Never addressed or developed).
BW is. weird. Black harks back to the older arcs better development of his pokemon, but in compensation white sets the standard of the ENTIRE team being nothing more than means to an end. As soon as she loses her tepig, not a single mon in her team has any kind of charm, development or spotlight. And when she gets gigi back, we don't even get to see any character growth from her.
BW2 is weird because both dexholders basicially only have One mon and everything else is more so just legendaries/random borrows, so like, I guess their entire team is developed? Considering whi-two has One mon in foongy, and Lack-two has just dewott and then 3 legendaries for the plot.
After XY it's over. While the mons will sometimes be important in a backstory, sometimes a plot point, 99% of the time they will lose all relevance and the arcs become just about the dexholder themselves. All they're there for is the pokemon battles, or to fit a certain theming (Y has a fletchinder because shes a sky battle person. X has a bunch of mega mons because hes the mega evolution guy. Sun has a litten and a meowth because hes got a cat face, Moon has a bunch of poison mons because shes a chemist etc). It is such a pokemon-less pokemon product that it's kinda astounding
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
In large part I think this is also down to how BW onwards the arcs have stuck so much more rigidly to the game story. There simply hasn't been the room for stuff to develop in the way the older chapters did. The RBGY and GSC arcs in particular meandered a lot, with loads of little side-stories and semi-standalone chapters akin to filler episodes in anime - you'd get an issue that was devoted to capturing a particular Pokemon, or the training/evolution of an existing team member. This happens much less in the later arcs. I'm reading XY atm and it's so tightly constrained; nearly every single thing that happens serves the central arc, and there's barely any time to breathe. BW is a bit better for this but it's where this trend started.
Not to mention that in the older chapters captures tended to take more time and effort, but there's an unfortunate tendency in the later arcs for characters to obtain Pokemon very quickly and effortlessly. Y decides she needs a Pokemon capable of Mega Evolving: boom, she finds and captures an Absol. Pearl gets told "fill up your team" by Wake, and quickly captures three Pokemon. The Plusle and Minun Ruby and Sapphire partner with are recurring characters; contrast that to how, in the ORAS chapter, Sapphire has already caught a Kirlia and it evolves into Gallade basically straight away. And then is barely used. This did happen in the older chapters too, but as noted they generally took a lot more time to flesh out at least some team members. Emerald very awkwardly gets three new team members at once, but we'd spent a lot of time with his original three before that (and let's be real his new three were only ever there to be paired with other dex holders' team members and make Gen IV babies).
Lack-Two has a blade-themed team btw (he has Kabutops, Gliscor, and Escavalier in addition to his others, and they all have a Serious nature). But yeah, they're barely fleshed out and are only relevant inasmuch as they contribute to a theme.
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
I like how everybody refers to Blake and Whitley by their original names for how unbelievably absurd they are
Imagine if they did a PLA arc lmao
Casey and Henry are so jarring. Now we are using real names for main characters!? Goddamnit, I hate the English version.
---
While we are talking about Pokémon Adventures, I wish people stop calling the manga dark, because it made me expect more deaths in the narrative.
I get it's Pokémon and it should still be family-friendly and blah blah blah, so clearly, I must be in a minority for believing the manga should have a few more permanent deaths here and there. Not necessarily in every arc, but maybe once in a while.
And yes, I did write "permanent deaths". Because two things that really bother me in Adventures are:
- The lack of deaths even among villains.
- Deaths being undone.
In short, most villains actually survived. Some of them did get properly defeated, but several others didn't. I'm still baffled at Will and Karen joining the Johto Elite Four in the HGSS arc, for example.
For the second point, the lack of permanent death, the Ruby and Sapphire arc's finale immediately comes to mind:
Hoenn is badly damaged by a fight between two kaijus? Several named characters died on-screen?
Celebi goes brrr. We all hate it, the classic reset button ending that was not properly foreshadowed at all.
Celebi goes brrr. We all hate it, the classic reset button ending that was not properly foreshadowed at all.
Seriously, in the Emerald arc, it is established that Archie's and Maxie's bodies are falling apart, so they were offered a magical suit of armor by a character whose mere existence piss me off to this day. Anyway, Archie kills Maxie and takes the armor. So Maxie is dead.
Then, at the end of the Emerald arc, Archie loses his armor and couldn't suit up again before disappearing into light. So Archie is also dead.
AND YET FOR SOME REASON THEY ARE STILL ALIVE SEVERAL ARCS LATER!?!? And there's LITERALLY ZERO EXPLANATION FOR NOW THEY FUCKING SURVIVED!??!§? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!
KalosianPorygon is having technical difficulties. Please stand by.
Then, at the end of the Emerald arc, Archie loses his armor and couldn't suit up again before disappearing into light. So Archie is also dead.
KalosianPorygon is having technical difficulties. Please stand by.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
"Pok" and "Leg"? Or perhaps just two random names starting with P and L. Peter and Laura. Percival and Liliana. Porush and Linda. Prakash and LaWanda.
I'll stop now. Realistically if there'd been a PLA arc I imagine it'd have been Diamond and Platinum in Rei and Akari's outfits ala Crys/Lyra in the HGSS chapter (and Pearl probably shoehorned in somewhere too)
On a slight tangent I just tried to remember what the canon names for the protagonists in ScVi are and I could not have done it with a gun to my head. Finally gave up, checked Bulbapedia and they're... Florian and Juliana?! Yeah no, never would have gotten that. Glad we're back to colours and they'll just be called Scarlet and Violet in the Adventures manga.
EDIT:
Well, only where we don't have colours. "Sword" and "Shield" would be really jarring first names even by the standards of the manga imo.Casey and Henry are so jarring. Now we are using real names for main characters!? Goddamnit, I hate the English version.
I mean, not to entirely disagree but in the RS chapter I did think that the deaths themselves were dark. Like, to me the impact of that moment was something I recall being really shocked by, just because it felt like a massively brutal upping of the stakes compared to the RBY and GSC chapters.---
While we are talking about Pokémon Adventures, I wish people stop calling the manga dark, because it made me expect more deaths in the narrative.
I get it's Pokémon and it should still be family-friendly and blah blah blah, so clearly, I must be in a minority for believing the manga should have a few more permanent deaths here and there. Not necessarily in every arc, but maybe once in a while.
And yes, I did write "permanent deaths". Because two things that really bother me in Adventures are:
The lack of deaths first. No really, who actually died in the manga? All I could think of are Archie, Maxie, Malva, and Orm, a member of Team Rocket appearing in the FRLG arc. I thought of Lysandre at the end of the XY arc, but apparently he survived with a broken spine.
- The lack of deaths even among villains.
- Deaths being undone.
In short, most villains actually survived. Some of them did get properly defeated, but several others didn't. I'm still baffled at Will and Karen joining the Johto Elite Four in the HGSS arc, for example.
For the second point, the lack of permanent death, the Ruby and Sapphire arc's finale immediately comes to mind:
But the Archie and Maxie situation in the ORAS arc actually, genuinely pissed me off.Hoenn is badly damaged by a fight between two kaijus? Several named characters died on-screen?
Celebi goes brrr. We all hate it, the classic reset button ending that was not properly foreshadowed at all.
Seriously, in the Emerald arc, it is established that Archie's and Maxie's bodies are falling apart, so they were offered a magical suit of armor by a character whose mere existence piss me off to this day. Anyway, Archie kills Maxie and takes the armor. So Maxie is dead.
Then, at the end of the Emerald arc, Archie loses his armor and couldn't suit up again before disappearing into light. So Archie is also dead.
View attachment 571551AND YET FOR SOME REASON THEY ARE STILL ALIVE SEVERAL ARCS LATER!?!? And there's LITERALLY ZERO EXPLANATION FOR NOW THEY FUCKING SURVIVED!??!§? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!
The fact that they were reversed kind of stands apart from that. I personally really liked the ending even with the time reset: yeah it's a pretty lame asspull, but the character development makes the happy ending feel earned: Courtney reforming (slightly), Ruby mending ties with his father, and Hoenn getting back to normal carries some genuine emotional weight. Which makes it annoying that the remake chapter undoes a lot of that (I hate the ORAS chapter for how it handled Team Aqua/Magma in particular) but that doesn't detract from the RS chapter itself. On its own merits, it's strong.
By contrast the Pokedex holders being turned to stone at the end of the FRLG chapter was a lot less shocking because it's so much more cartoonish and it was obvious it'd be reversed eventually. It's still slightly grim but not at all on the same level.
Not to entirely restate my earlier post but it's another thing that's faded somewhat over time. The earlier chapters (mirroring the games, really) were fairly dark in a lot of ways. I'm not even talking about the oft-mentioned Koga's Arbok being sliced in half, I mean the genuinely darker elements, like Silver and Blue being kidnapped as children or the Elite Four's desire to wipe out humanity.
But the later chapters are much less dark. Protagonists have far less grim backgrounds (in fairness I can see why they didn't keep this up, it'd get tired). Again, a lot of the elements from the earlier chapters are gone because of how much the manga's story has gradually moved to becoming a closer adaptation of the games. I suspect that characters aren't killed off because it's a sensible assumption that they'll be needed again at some point. Obviously we didn't get a BDSP arc but let's be real, we'll probably see Unova again in the next decade so that'll almost certainly necessitate using N, Colress, and Ghetsis in some form. And that means that the stakes get lower. If characters do die, that just means you have to contrive some way to bring them back.
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This could be done with a frenzied (Origin Forme) Dialga either sending the DPPt trio to the past or sending the PLA cast to the present.
(PLA spoilers) A few people suspected Volo, PLA's main human antagonist is somehow alive in the modern day... so what if this character teams up with his past self? Hey, that worked with Goku Black and Zamasu.
Hey I think there are some deaths in movies' manga like the strange dude in the zoroark movie that falls from a High place.Casey and Henry are so jarring. Now we are using real names for main characters!? Goddamnit, I hate the English version.
---
While we are talking about Pokémon Adventures, I wish people stop calling the manga dark, because it made me expect more deaths in the narrative.
I get it's Pokémon and it should still be family-friendly and blah blah blah, so clearly, I must be in a minority for believing the manga should have a few more permanent deaths here and there. Not necessarily in every arc, but maybe once in a while.
And yes, I did write "permanent deaths". Because two things that really bother me in Adventures are:
The lack of deaths first. No really, who actually died in the manga? All I could think of are Archie, Maxie, Malva, and Orm, a member of Team Rocket appearing in the FRLG arc. I thought of Lysandre at the end of the XY arc, but apparently he survived with a broken spine.
- The lack of deaths even among villains.
- Deaths being undone.
In short, most villains actually survived. Some of them did get properly defeated, but several others didn't. I'm still baffled at Will and Karen joining the Johto Elite Four in the HGSS arc, for example.
For the second point, the lack of permanent death, the Ruby and Sapphire arc's finale immediately comes to mind:
But the Archie and Maxie situation in the ORAS arc actually, genuinely pissed me off.Hoenn is badly damaged by a fight between two kaijus? Several named characters died on-screen?
Celebi goes brrr. We all hate it, the classic reset button ending that was not properly foreshadowed at all.
Seriously, in the Emerald arc, it is established that Archie's and Maxie's bodies are falling apart, so they were offered a magical suit of armor by a character whose mere existence piss me off to this day. Anyway, Archie kills Maxie and takes the armor. So Maxie is dead.
Then, at the end of the Emerald arc, Archie loses his armor and couldn't suit up again before disappearing into light. So Archie is also dead.
View attachment 571551AND YET FOR SOME REASON THEY ARE STILL ALIVE SEVERAL ARCS LATER!?!? And there's LITERALLY ZERO EXPLANATION FOR NOW THEY FUCKING SURVIVED!??!§? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
I'm also going to jump back in with another unpopular opinion: I have very little appetite for a game in which the main character is a member of Team Rocket or any other villainous team (former or otherwise).
For starters, most of the evil teams suck. They're made up largely of incompetents and unskilled trainers who don't much care about Pokemon or Pokemon training for their own sake: in RBYFRLG, one of the Rocket grunts complains after being beaten "if only I'd started training Pokemon at your age..." and in DPP a Team Galactic Grunt boasts about having stolen a Pokemon "from a weak trainer". Only the admins and the bosses tend to be portrayed as serious trainers, and not always even then: Cyrus doesn't much seem to care about being a good trainer, only using the power of his team. Even though he notably evolved his Crobat, he doesn't evidence much care or attachment to his Pokemon beyond them being powerful operatives he can make use of.
That runs pretty much counter to the mindset we're encouraged to adopt throughout the games. And while Team Rocket has no real ideology beyond "steal Pokemon for profit" all the other teams are too idealogical for it to feel natural that they'd left it: having the player be an ex-Team Aqua or Team Plasma grunt wouldn't work at all. Though I would actually really like to see some ex-team grunts appear in the games, outside of the one-line NPCs we've encountered here and there.
Am I saying it couldn't work at all? No, I think it totally could. I mean hell, Colosseum does this approach pretty well. But even then, Wes' affiliation to Team Snagem only works inasmuch as it gives him a more compelling personal connection to Snagem's boss and a slightly deeper motive for stopping them. It affects very little of the story because his mission is a heroic one anyway. If Wes were simply a powerful wandering trainer who'd heard of what Team Snagem were doing and decided to steal the Snag Machine to prevent them using it, very little would change because that's pretty much the story as it already is.
Now, I think something we could do with seeing more is the main character having a bit of a backstory, especially when, as in Black and White, the characters are meant to be a little older. Hilbert and Hilda are designed to look around 17: did they really never once catch a Pokemon before then? They could have studied at the local trainer's school, they could work on a farm or ranch with Pokemon on it, they could even be friends of the local gym leader and be learning from them. Again, XD does this quite well because Michael has grown up at the Pokemon Lab and is familiar with all sorts of Pokemon, having even trained with virtual Pokemon - he has an Eevee already, but it wouldn't be too much of a jump from "don't you think you should raise other species" to "maybe it's time for you to finally obtain your first real Pokemon". Part of why Pokemon succeeds is because the main character is basically a blank slate, but they don't need to be completely so: it would be good to have a main character with a little more to them than just "kid who woke up one day and got a Pokemon".
For starters, most of the evil teams suck. They're made up largely of incompetents and unskilled trainers who don't much care about Pokemon or Pokemon training for their own sake: in RBYFRLG, one of the Rocket grunts complains after being beaten "if only I'd started training Pokemon at your age..." and in DPP a Team Galactic Grunt boasts about having stolen a Pokemon "from a weak trainer". Only the admins and the bosses tend to be portrayed as serious trainers, and not always even then: Cyrus doesn't much seem to care about being a good trainer, only using the power of his team. Even though he notably evolved his Crobat, he doesn't evidence much care or attachment to his Pokemon beyond them being powerful operatives he can make use of.
That runs pretty much counter to the mindset we're encouraged to adopt throughout the games. And while Team Rocket has no real ideology beyond "steal Pokemon for profit" all the other teams are too idealogical for it to feel natural that they'd left it: having the player be an ex-Team Aqua or Team Plasma grunt wouldn't work at all. Though I would actually really like to see some ex-team grunts appear in the games, outside of the one-line NPCs we've encountered here and there.
Am I saying it couldn't work at all? No, I think it totally could. I mean hell, Colosseum does this approach pretty well. But even then, Wes' affiliation to Team Snagem only works inasmuch as it gives him a more compelling personal connection to Snagem's boss and a slightly deeper motive for stopping them. It affects very little of the story because his mission is a heroic one anyway. If Wes were simply a powerful wandering trainer who'd heard of what Team Snagem were doing and decided to steal the Snag Machine to prevent them using it, very little would change because that's pretty much the story as it already is.
Now, I think something we could do with seeing more is the main character having a bit of a backstory, especially when, as in Black and White, the characters are meant to be a little older. Hilbert and Hilda are designed to look around 17: did they really never once catch a Pokemon before then? They could have studied at the local trainer's school, they could work on a farm or ranch with Pokemon on it, they could even be friends of the local gym leader and be learning from them. Again, XD does this quite well because Michael has grown up at the Pokemon Lab and is familiar with all sorts of Pokemon, having even trained with virtual Pokemon - he has an Eevee already, but it wouldn't be too much of a jump from "don't you think you should raise other species" to "maybe it's time for you to finally obtain your first real Pokemon". Part of why Pokemon succeeds is because the main character is basically a blank slate, but they don't need to be completely so: it would be good to have a main character with a little more to them than just "kid who woke up one day and got a Pokemon".
I was talking about the Pokémon Adventures manga specifically. When people say "the manga", they are talking about Pokémon Adventures.
My love hate relationship for the rs arc is immense and im not even gonna touch my hate hate relationship with oras but my entire unpopular opinion is that the relationship between ruby n sapphire pretty much set rs to be doomed from the start, because kusaka cannot write romance and he is really bad with Writing Women. Also I think sapphire should have been the main character and im saying this as like ruby fan number one in the world
Bro evolved crobat only to Have flavour of having évolution of the pokemon the grunts Have.
Still haven't finished FRLG cuz by then I got bored and realized remakes would tire me, but I agree about the horrid shafting of Sapphire, as much as I liked seeing Ruby actually grow
It was so numbingly obvious they didn't know what to do with her. She randomly is feral first chapter, then drops that immediately and does basic campaign stuff. Most you have is her helping Wattson, then after Ruby's entire char arc she's back to help stop big bad without much of her own personal struggle
It hurts more too cuz the fucking NPCs get development as they become aware of Team Aqua's manipulation of media (which speaking of, love that Archie was actually competent). Even Wally gets more stuff, directly having his sickness addressed (though from what I heard Em drops him hard for an OC...)
Honestly wouldn't be surprised this is why Gen 4 Dawn is a grumpy stuck up protag while Barry/Lucas are just sidekicks, but it doesn't matter. Hareta manga > Gen 4 Adventures
Its so bad. its genuinely so bad she gets NOTHING all she does is basic barebones protag stuff like 3 times, no character development and then gets shoved in the stupid aircar lol.
I also personally am glad he went for oc but thats because I think emerald is The Best dexholder in the manga, while wally was more of a plot contrievance than a character to me. He's kinda just there because they had to add wally since hes the other main rival, and just does whatever the plot needs him to do to.
This is cringe to admit also but this arc has lived in my head for so long i actually started writing a rewrite for myself of it LOL. my brain decided to never let it go so now im suffering the consequences
The Pokemon Chronicles show had the potential to be better than the mainline Pokemon show but never got to realize it. It was a great idea, I just think they decentralized it just a little too much. I'm imagining a show that, instead of random one-off stories of old friends, seasonally follows a couple fan favorites inside the regions' infrastructures (research and lecturing academics/ gym leaders, nurses, officers) to build toward a collective season-long narrative. The traveling trainer is great to discover new worlds, but let's take a beat and actually live in those worlds for a bit.
Season 1 - Follows Misty, Prof. Oak/Tracy, and Casey as a visiting trainer as they deal with some of the longer ramifications of Ash's adventures. Things like providing a support network for and protection for Mewtwo's new community against poachers, researching and dealing with changed migratory patterns after movie events that dramatically effected populations, etc... Let's organize Gym Leaders and have region-wide Officer conferences, and more.
Season 2 - Let's get tropical with a scientific research team consisting of Gary, Blaine, and one of Professor Ivy's triplet assistants, all put together to study some on-going phenomena taking place in the Seafoam Islands, the Orange Islands, and the Whirl Islands. Maybe it's even a precursor plot Team Aqua in Hoenn.
Season 3 - Head to Johto and open with a 5-7 episode end-of-academy/what comes next storyline for a new Nurse Joy (w/ Miltank), Officer Jenny (w/ Teddiursa), and a Pokemon Ranger, followed by their special assignment under a Mr. Pokemon-led task force to investigate some new Pokemon mystery and possible illicit criminal activity leading to Mt. Silver.
So on and so forth. As the show catches up to regions, cycle back through. What if Ritchie settles down at one of the Pokemon Academies as a teaching assistant and takes his misfit students to throwback locations for field trips as they learn to be better trainers and eventually take on the intramural Junior Pokemon League tourney put on by the academies? What if Brock gives Sudowoodo, the wannabe tree, to his brother Forrest who wants to find more like Rock-types that fit an off-type vibe (Lileep/Anorith, Shuckle, Corsola, Relicanth etc...) and Prof. Oak sends him to Gary in Hoenn to assist in his research in collaboration with Devon, where they're joined by now-10yo Max who hopes to train under Gary/in his home region of Hoenn to begin his studies towards being a Professor?
Season 1 - Follows Misty, Prof. Oak/Tracy, and Casey as a visiting trainer as they deal with some of the longer ramifications of Ash's adventures. Things like providing a support network for and protection for Mewtwo's new community against poachers, researching and dealing with changed migratory patterns after movie events that dramatically effected populations, etc... Let's organize Gym Leaders and have region-wide Officer conferences, and more.
Season 2 - Let's get tropical with a scientific research team consisting of Gary, Blaine, and one of Professor Ivy's triplet assistants, all put together to study some on-going phenomena taking place in the Seafoam Islands, the Orange Islands, and the Whirl Islands. Maybe it's even a precursor plot Team Aqua in Hoenn.
Season 3 - Head to Johto and open with a 5-7 episode end-of-academy/what comes next storyline for a new Nurse Joy (w/ Miltank), Officer Jenny (w/ Teddiursa), and a Pokemon Ranger, followed by their special assignment under a Mr. Pokemon-led task force to investigate some new Pokemon mystery and possible illicit criminal activity leading to Mt. Silver.
So on and so forth. As the show catches up to regions, cycle back through. What if Ritchie settles down at one of the Pokemon Academies as a teaching assistant and takes his misfit students to throwback locations for field trips as they learn to be better trainers and eventually take on the intramural Junior Pokemon League tourney put on by the academies? What if Brock gives Sudowoodo, the wannabe tree, to his brother Forrest who wants to find more like Rock-types that fit an off-type vibe (Lileep/Anorith, Shuckle, Corsola, Relicanth etc...) and Prof. Oak sends him to Gary in Hoenn to assist in his research in collaboration with Devon, where they're joined by now-10yo Max who hopes to train under Gary/in his home region of Hoenn to begin his studies towards being a Professor?
(Warning: Major "Pokemon Fan don't find patterns" challenge failure ahead)
I don't know if this is unpopular as in disagreeable or just not widely thought of/held, but I would argue that divorced from what was done in later arcs with the characters (i.e. Lance coming back reformed for GSC and HGSS, or reveals with Yellow in the FRLG arcs), the Yellow Arc might be the "darkest" early Pokemon Special got while the Pokemon as a concept remained important to its story (see the above criticism of stuff like XY and SM arcs).
My basis here does involve the human characters in how the Elite Four are handled as antagonists: compared to organizations like Team Rocket, Magma, etc. the Kanto populace or at least big wigs are aware of the Elite Four existing but also regard them as too strong to act against without some serious prep and help. No one thinks it bizarre that one of them could beat a Champion as accomplished as Red was shown to be, even if contextually there's more at work there, and despite an obvious hatred/problem with them from the RBG arc the former Rocket Leaders (i.e. actual no-dressing-down Terrorists and Crime Bosses) and the protags arriving clearly consider working together necessary to challenge them. Maybe it's hindsight with real life molding my perspective but something seems eerily heavy and concerning about a villainous body everyone is aware of but also feels incapable of challenging bar a forced hand/Godzilla threshold.
Agatha is pretty unrepentant in essentially wiping out humanity as their goal goes, and given the flashbacks we see of a younger Lance and Lorelei, it almost gives me this impression that she fed into or conditioned their grudges to reach the point of intensity they display in that arc. Agatha is also shown getting away in a much more dignified/less broken fashion than any member save Bruno, who was mind-controlled into their cause anyway at that point. While every member is willing to kill for their cause, Agatha in particular has the most "targetted" efforts against Blue, which makes her less-sound defeat a lot more infuriating.
The big thing this makes me think of though is Yellow's final battle against Lance. Yellow spends a lot of the fight in her Martial Pacifist mode, defending herself but clearly hoping she can talk Lance down instead of having to fight him despite him clearly not sharing the sentiment. The fight itself almost feels like a perversion or dark take on Yellow's Empathic nature, with things like Blaine and Mewtwo able to challenge Lance if not for their link hurting the former to the point the latter stops fighting for his safety, or Giovanni displaying a brutal efficiency to match Lance in battle among the 3 Viridian trainers. A big moment on this front for me is when Yellow hears the thoughts of Lance's Dragonite, exhausted and injured to a near fatal degree but still only concerned with seeing Lance's goals through, which has two dark perspectives in Lance either ignoring or missing the state his own Pokemon is in because he's that single-minded in his plan by that point.
In the end the only way Yellow's able to stop Lance is to fight and defeat him head-on, something very contrary to how she wanted to live but that people like Blue told her wouldn't be enough against an enemy like this. Yellow outright cries at the prospect of her Pokemon evolving or changing, a process that in terms of character is very analogous to aging/maturing in the franchise as it has gone on (both with things like the anime arcs or Spin-offs like Mystery Dungeon treating your 1st-stage characters as Children). The climax of the battle requiring Yellow's team to evolve to go toe-to-toe with Lance and save everyone has a sort of "Loss of Innocence" air to it with that context, as the entire fight pushes in Yellow's face that her pacifist nature won't work and won't reach some people, only able to stop Lance by beating him down so he can't continue his plan. Compared to most arcs, while the story conflict is won, the protagonist's philosophy doesn't bear out and has to be defied if anything when pushed to the extreme. Even if Lance is less villainous in later appearances, this is less out of Yellow convincing him regardless of the fight than other matters on his mind like Lugia being controlled taking his attention (and HGSS suggests he's outright intimidated/afraid of/unbalanced by Yellow when Petrel disguises himself to get the drop on him).
I can't really think of another Pokemon plot or scenario that ends in a moral/personal failure, minor or otherwise, for the protagonist. Even with antagonists who can't be reasoned with/reformed like Ghetsis or Volo, the resolution still has them beaten because your method overcomes theirs rather than having to meet and beat them on their own level like this arc.
I don't know if this is unpopular as in disagreeable or just not widely thought of/held, but I would argue that divorced from what was done in later arcs with the characters (i.e. Lance coming back reformed for GSC and HGSS, or reveals with Yellow in the FRLG arcs), the Yellow Arc might be the "darkest" early Pokemon Special got while the Pokemon as a concept remained important to its story (see the above criticism of stuff like XY and SM arcs).
My basis here does involve the human characters in how the Elite Four are handled as antagonists: compared to organizations like Team Rocket, Magma, etc. the Kanto populace or at least big wigs are aware of the Elite Four existing but also regard them as too strong to act against without some serious prep and help. No one thinks it bizarre that one of them could beat a Champion as accomplished as Red was shown to be, even if contextually there's more at work there, and despite an obvious hatred/problem with them from the RBG arc the former Rocket Leaders (i.e. actual no-dressing-down Terrorists and Crime Bosses) and the protags arriving clearly consider working together necessary to challenge them. Maybe it's hindsight with real life molding my perspective but something seems eerily heavy and concerning about a villainous body everyone is aware of but also feels incapable of challenging bar a forced hand/Godzilla threshold.
Agatha is pretty unrepentant in essentially wiping out humanity as their goal goes, and given the flashbacks we see of a younger Lance and Lorelei, it almost gives me this impression that she fed into or conditioned their grudges to reach the point of intensity they display in that arc. Agatha is also shown getting away in a much more dignified/less broken fashion than any member save Bruno, who was mind-controlled into their cause anyway at that point. While every member is willing to kill for their cause, Agatha in particular has the most "targetted" efforts against Blue, which makes her less-sound defeat a lot more infuriating.
The big thing this makes me think of though is Yellow's final battle against Lance. Yellow spends a lot of the fight in her Martial Pacifist mode, defending herself but clearly hoping she can talk Lance down instead of having to fight him despite him clearly not sharing the sentiment. The fight itself almost feels like a perversion or dark take on Yellow's Empathic nature, with things like Blaine and Mewtwo able to challenge Lance if not for their link hurting the former to the point the latter stops fighting for his safety, or Giovanni displaying a brutal efficiency to match Lance in battle among the 3 Viridian trainers. A big moment on this front for me is when Yellow hears the thoughts of Lance's Dragonite, exhausted and injured to a near fatal degree but still only concerned with seeing Lance's goals through, which has two dark perspectives in Lance either ignoring or missing the state his own Pokemon is in because he's that single-minded in his plan by that point.
In the end the only way Yellow's able to stop Lance is to fight and defeat him head-on, something very contrary to how she wanted to live but that people like Blue told her wouldn't be enough against an enemy like this. Yellow outright cries at the prospect of her Pokemon evolving or changing, a process that in terms of character is very analogous to aging/maturing in the franchise as it has gone on (both with things like the anime arcs or Spin-offs like Mystery Dungeon treating your 1st-stage characters as Children). The climax of the battle requiring Yellow's team to evolve to go toe-to-toe with Lance and save everyone has a sort of "Loss of Innocence" air to it with that context, as the entire fight pushes in Yellow's face that her pacifist nature won't work and won't reach some people, only able to stop Lance by beating him down so he can't continue his plan. Compared to most arcs, while the story conflict is won, the protagonist's philosophy doesn't bear out and has to be defied if anything when pushed to the extreme. Even if Lance is less villainous in later appearances, this is less out of Yellow convincing him regardless of the fight than other matters on his mind like Lugia being controlled taking his attention (and HGSS suggests he's outright intimidated/afraid of/unbalanced by Yellow when Petrel disguises himself to get the drop on him).
I can't really think of another Pokemon plot or scenario that ends in a moral/personal failure, minor or otherwise, for the protagonist. Even with antagonists who can't be reasoned with/reformed like Ghetsis or Volo, the resolution still has them beaten because your method overcomes theirs rather than having to meet and beat them on their own level like this arc.
Castersvarog
formerly Maronmario
Boy howdy a Pokémon series not having time to develop itself properly and has to rush to keep up a schedule, where have I seen that before? /s
Joking aside, I’m guessing that the people who work on the manga just don’t have time to work in each individual arc like they used to because of time and any other issues. Like didn’t the Gen 5 manga got put in limbo for a couple years, I remember that being a thing that happened.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
A couple? It was more like 10, the B2W2 chapter only finished a year or two ago.
I think that's one of those things that people love in fangames or similar, but specifically because it's not going to be a thing in any "mainline" titles and probably not be a thing in spinoffs. A hack* having you playthrough as a Magma Grunt/Silver/N/etc could be really interesting, and having an actual char for the NPCs to interact with would be nice. And I played through an Emerald Nuzlocke using codes to steal pokemon and had a blast. But GF is married(with good reason) to the idea of the "blank slate protagonist", and making the player evil just won't happen EVER in their child-friendly series. So it's safe to speculate about how fun it would be, without ever risking GF actually making it and it sucks.
*I'm sure it's been done, but I've never played anything that does this so I'm not naming anything specific.
As someone whose only knowledge of Gen 5 is second hand, Team Plasma seems like the one team actually malicious team (as in not anything from Team Skull onward) where having the player be a (former?) grunt would actually work really well. Team Rocket was the mafia, Team Aqua and Magma were environmental terrorists, Team Galactic was like a doomsday cult or something, and Team Flare were fascists, but Team Plasma had a benevolent front so convincing that half the grunts genuinely believed in it and continued to pursue that goal even after Ghetsis fell in BW1. Having the player be a member of Old Team Plasma circa BW2 doesn't seem that unworkable.
You could have a protagonist who isn't necessarily ex-Team Plasma, but at least supported their stated goals strongly enough that they released their Pokemon. The game begins as any other Pokemon game does, but instead of receiving their first Pokemon, they're starting again as a trainer. The backstory doesn't have to be fleshed out much more than that, but even with scant detail I think it could be an emotionally compelling foundation for a Pokemon story. It also basically lets the PC be any age you like, which is a nice bonus.
EDIT: unfortunately I don't really trust Game Freak to have anything interesting to say about Team Plasma given how incoherent it all got in BW and B2W2. Pretty much every conversation between an ex-Grunt and a current Grunt in B2W2 is like
Grunt: "Quit being a loser and come be evil with us again!"
ex-Grunt: "I'm sorry, but I cannot forgive the way Ghetsis treated Lord N!"
and it's super lame.
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Not me because those names are garbage.
And like. Black-Two works as a code name, which makes sense because he's an agent or whatever. But making it Lack-Two is just weird.