it counters the support set, it can soft check offensive sets too due to prism armor. square up g
Resource Ubers Teambuilding Compendium
- Thread starter Minority
- Start date
it counters the support set, it can soft check offensive sets too due to prism armor. square up g
I'd recommend adding Yveltal and Marshadow checks considering how prevalent they both are right now
Also, I'd recommend removing Lunala from swords dance Arceus checks.
252+ SpA Lunala Focus Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Chople Berry Arceus: 128-151 (29 - 34.2%) -- 2.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Shadow Shield Lunala: 176-208 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Unless I'm missing something lol, Lunala does not counter that set
252+ SpA Lunala Focus Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Chople Berry Arceus: 128-151 (29 - 34.2%) -- 2.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Shadow Shield Lunala: 176-208 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Unless I'm missing something lol, Lunala does not counter that set
So, I was thinking of using Giratina-O as a Pdon+Pogre check after looking at this thread, but doesn't Pogre have a good chance of 2HKOing SpDef sets with ice beam? It is even guaranteed after rocks and/or if it's a more typical (I.e physically defensive) Giratina-O.
Furthermore, what does it do back to Pogre? It only gets one turn to do anything (two if you count Shadow Sneak), so the most it can do is cripple with toxic/twave. That's good and all, but it's more of an emergency protocol than a check (at least as I see it - I'd like to be shown otherwise, because I like the idea of compressing several roles into Giratina).
Furthermore, what does it do back to Pogre? It only gets one turn to do anything (two if you count Shadow Sneak), so the most it can do is cripple with toxic/twave. That's good and all, but it's more of an emergency protocol than a check (at least as I see it - I'd like to be shown otherwise, because I like the idea of compressing several roles into Giratina).
252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Force vs. 32 HP / 64 Def Kyogre-Primal: 247-292 (70.7 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 175-207 (50.1 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not the greatest answer, but definitely a check
Can’t read the compendium cause I’m on phone, but if Gira-O is considered a Pogre “check” for that reason, might as well add stuff like ekiller or ho-oh, who can “pivot” on a potential ice move or, since you brought sun up, anything that can take a water move. Point is, just because something can pivot doesn’t mean it’s a check.
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Might’ve misphrased, or some ppl misunderstood, so let me put it this way to make it clear. I do not think that ho-oh or ekiller should be added as a check to Pogre for obvious reasons. Second, I overlooked the part where the user above me said that it wasn’t rlly a check. Third how can you consider it a check when special Pogres can 2 shot it with the combination of origin pulse + ice beam, and knocking out any variation of giratina with a double ice beam. That was my point. I understand the concept of pivoting all too well, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s not rlly a check. Might as well add pokemon like Arceus Dark to your checklist. Also pls don’t hl me again in disc for this shit thnx.
This is a very strong teambuilding compendium, I appreciate the sheer amount of detail put into this.
I feel a section for Zygarde Checks should be included for the current point of the metagame. Dragon Dance Zygarde has absolutely made its way to the top of the metagame threatlist since the development of USM and working it's way up the viability rankings. It is a very strong winning condition, with a lot of versatility on it's main set, sheer bulk which factors in to how reliable Zygarde can be, these traits this can further be evidenced in recent UPL games and some seasonal games.
Players need to know the importance of having a Dragon Dance Zygarde check on their team, something I think should come before Mega Salamence and Swords Dance Arceus checks and this would be a useful visual resource.
Zygarde Checks
This is my own comprehensive list of Pokemon, that I feel that can actively check defensively or threaten Zygarde in their own right going off how the compendium takes factors into consideration. Deoxys-A looks controversial here, but it actually outspeeds +1 Zygarde before Power Construct, so it can fit under the list of revenge killers for offensive teams. Feel free to adapt this to your liking and I probably missed some niche one's I fully wouldn't consider or some specific situational checks.
Furthermore, I feel it's worth adding Arceus-Water, Arceus-Rock and Arceus-Dark to Stealth Rock setters, they make consistent rockers due to the compression they provide and Arceus formes are more commonly being assigned to a Stealth Rock role on teams. Stealth Rock Arceus-Water is actually something I got success with in UPL, while being able to actively check Ho-OH / Mega Salamence / Primal Groudon, Arceus Rock also performs this, but has the ground weakness. Arceus-Dark is able to perform Stealth Rock role and has the additional niche of not being trapped by Gothitelle/Mega Gengar and can fit on teams that still need the dark-type/ghost-type resist and being the forme that can be squeezed to get a lot out of it.
I feel a section for Zygarde Checks should be included for the current point of the metagame. Dragon Dance Zygarde has absolutely made its way to the top of the metagame threatlist since the development of USM and working it's way up the viability rankings. It is a very strong winning condition, with a lot of versatility on it's main set, sheer bulk which factors in to how reliable Zygarde can be, these traits this can further be evidenced in recent UPL games and some seasonal games.
Players need to know the importance of having a Dragon Dance Zygarde check on their team, something I think should come before Mega Salamence and Swords Dance Arceus checks and this would be a useful visual resource.
Zygarde Checks
This is my own comprehensive list of Pokemon, that I feel that can actively check defensively or threaten Zygarde in their own right going off how the compendium takes factors into consideration. Deoxys-A looks controversial here, but it actually outspeeds +1 Zygarde before Power Construct, so it can fit under the list of revenge killers for offensive teams. Feel free to adapt this to your liking and I probably missed some niche one's I fully wouldn't consider or some specific situational checks.
Furthermore, I feel it's worth adding Arceus-Water, Arceus-Rock and Arceus-Dark to Stealth Rock setters, they make consistent rockers due to the compression they provide and Arceus formes are more commonly being assigned to a Stealth Rock role on teams. Stealth Rock Arceus-Water is actually something I got success with in UPL, while being able to actively check Ho-OH / Mega Salamence / Primal Groudon, Arceus Rock also performs this, but has the ground weakness. Arceus-Dark is able to perform Stealth Rock role and has the additional niche of not being trapped by Gothitelle/Mega Gengar and can fit on teams that still need the dark-type/ghost-type resist and being the forme that can be squeezed to get a lot out of it.
The EKiller section should be removed, since having it gives the implication that a team needs one. If it’s for SD Arc formes in general, remove Mega-Scizor, since it loses to the most common one.
Get the ninja out of priority
Get the ninja out of priority
With Arceus-Water's revamp no longer utilizing Defog in its main sets, shouldn't it be taken out of the Hazard Remover section?
Primal Groudon Checks
+
,
,
,
,
-
Giratina-A does its thing in stall to check most Primal Groudon variants (except SD variants which it can live a hit from and put on timer) and Lunala can take on out-of-hand Primal Groudon with Shadow Shield intact (dex analysis also lists Lunala as one of the checks). Ultra Necrozma may be a little weird one but it actually beats Primal Groudon one on one and can potentially set up on it. Mega Gyarados can be a switch-in prior to Mega Evolution and beats some Primal Groudon one on one if using Earthquake. Mega Latias is immune to blades and resists Fire. Landorus-T no longer exists in VR.
Xerneas Checks
+
,
,
,
-
I'm surprised to see Mega Gengar not being here. If Mega Gengar went through Mega Evolution early that means Xerneas has to be extra careful about being trapped especially if it wants to press Aromatherapy or Defog. Arceus-Poison is hella niche yet one of the 'mon that can switch into Xerneas with impunity as long as it is not too low on health. Mega Venusaur eats just about everything Xerneas uses apart from c'team Psyshock. Wobbuffet can live +2 Moonblast from full HP and thus can ensure that Geomancy Xerneas won't keep nuking things (press Mirror Coat on 1v1 scenario, if Xerneas presses Moonblast it's toast, if it presses Geomancy again just Encore next turn and switch to another teammate). Bronzong is out of VR.
Zygarde-C Checks
+
,
,
The first two fellas resist 1k Arrows and have access to Ice-type attacks. Pheromosa can't switch into 1k Arrows more than once but Naive variants outspeed Zygarde (yes, regular forme with higher Speed) at +1 so I'd say it's an offensive check.
Mega Salamence Checks
-
Out of VR
Swords Dance Arceus Checks
+
-
Psychic Terrain is hella annoying for Ekiller and Tapu Lele can actually pick off Ekiller from like 43%... which is a little close to how much of a weakened Ekiller can be picked off by Jolly Mega Salamence. Clefable is out of VR.
Ho-Oh Checks
-
Out of VR
Primal Kyogre Checks
+
,
Additions should be obvious though; Arceus-Grass is better at offensively checking Pogre while Mega Venusaur can switch into that better.
Ground Immunities
-
,
Out of VR
Stealth Rock Setters
-
,
Out of VR
Spikes | Toxic Spikes
-
Out of VR
Anti-Hazard Support
+
Yes please
Priority
-
Out of VR
And... I think we can maybe make a section about Marshadow checks. Here is an inaugural list:
Edit:
In case I forgot to specify, unranked Pokemon like Bronzong, Greninja, and Landorus-T in other sections can be removed.
+
-
Giratina-A does its thing in stall to check most Primal Groudon variants (except SD variants which it can live a hit from and put on timer) and Lunala can take on out-of-hand Primal Groudon with Shadow Shield intact (dex analysis also lists Lunala as one of the checks). Ultra Necrozma may be a little weird one but it actually beats Primal Groudon one on one and can potentially set up on it. Mega Gyarados can be a switch-in prior to Mega Evolution and beats some Primal Groudon one on one if using Earthquake. Mega Latias is immune to blades and resists Fire. Landorus-T no longer exists in VR.
Xerneas Checks
+
-
I'm surprised to see Mega Gengar not being here. If Mega Gengar went through Mega Evolution early that means Xerneas has to be extra careful about being trapped especially if it wants to press Aromatherapy or Defog. Arceus-Poison is hella niche yet one of the 'mon that can switch into Xerneas with impunity as long as it is not too low on health. Mega Venusaur eats just about everything Xerneas uses apart from c'team Psyshock. Wobbuffet can live +2 Moonblast from full HP and thus can ensure that Geomancy Xerneas won't keep nuking things (press Mirror Coat on 1v1 scenario, if Xerneas presses Moonblast it's toast, if it presses Geomancy again just Encore next turn and switch to another teammate). Bronzong is out of VR.
Zygarde-C Checks
+
The first two fellas resist 1k Arrows and have access to Ice-type attacks. Pheromosa can't switch into 1k Arrows more than once but Naive variants outspeed Zygarde (yes, regular forme with higher Speed) at +1 so I'd say it's an offensive check.
Mega Salamence Checks
-
Out of VR
Swords Dance Arceus Checks
+
-
Psychic Terrain is hella annoying for Ekiller and Tapu Lele can actually pick off Ekiller from like 43%... which is a little close to how much of a weakened Ekiller can be picked off by Jolly Mega Salamence. Clefable is out of VR.
Ho-Oh Checks
-
Out of VR
Primal Kyogre Checks
+
Additions should be obvious though; Arceus-Grass is better at offensively checking Pogre while Mega Venusaur can switch into that better.
Ground Immunities
-
Out of VR
Stealth Rock Setters
-
Out of VR
Spikes | Toxic Spikes
-
Out of VR
Anti-Hazard Support
+
Yes please
Priority
-
Out of VR
And... I think we can maybe make a section about Marshadow checks. Here is an inaugural list:
Edit:
In case I forgot to specify, unranked Pokemon like Bronzong, Greninja, and Landorus-T in other sections can be removed.
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Lunala should be added to DM checks and possibly anti-hazard with defensive defog proving viable; it could also be added to pdon checks and pogre checks but both are a bit debatable
Gira-a should be added to Kyogre checks (can scout its moveset before switching to bliss/chans on stall, can somewhat wall mixed ogre) and anti-hazard
Pdon could be added to mence checks seeing how SD + SR (which is one of the most common sets rn) can survive an atk from full and then Rock Tomb so that Marsh/Scarf Xern/etc. can outspeed afterwards, and sets with HP Ice can lure/win the 1v1
I feel ultra necrozma is relevant enough to require its own section- while it overlaps with dm checks somewhat it also easily beats common dm checks like pdon/ogre/ho-oh/waterceus/groundceus, and common checks to it like scarf xern cant be listed as dm checks
Gira-a should be added to Kyogre checks (can scout its moveset before switching to bliss/chans on stall, can somewhat wall mixed ogre) and anti-hazard
Pdon could be added to mence checks seeing how SD + SR (which is one of the most common sets rn) can survive an atk from full and then Rock Tomb so that Marsh/Scarf Xern/etc. can outspeed afterwards, and sets with HP Ice can lure/win the 1v1
I feel ultra necrozma is relevant enough to require its own section- while it overlaps with dm checks somewhat it also easily beats common dm checks like pdon/ogre/ho-oh/waterceus/groundceus, and common checks to it like scarf xern cant be listed as dm checks
Most of these guys are reliant on safe switch / outrage vs stone edge / unec without z / unec not being a special set but there isn't surefire answer to unec in any aspect so hope this works.
Edit: Removed Ditto
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Should probably add a ground arceus check considering it's one of the best mons in the tier right now and is in almost every single team.
I am surprised that Scizor is not considered as a check / counter of Necro DM with Pursuit / Knock Off. He can enter without suffering great damage before him and take advantage.
Another example can be Dialga as Check / counter of Zygarde with Shuca + DPulse or DMeteor. It's a little risky but I think it can also be seen as an answer.
Another example can be Dialga as Check / counter of Zygarde with Shuca + DPulse or DMeteor. It's a little risky but I think it can also be seen as an answer.
Dialga isn't really a check of zygarde, as a pokemon that relies on a item that only works once while having a weakness to his STAB isn't really a check... (also the fact that zygarde can use sub)
But yeah MZor should be added as a Dusk Mane check, knowing the fact MZor now run a Curse set most of the time, it greatly helps him to check the SD set.
Mega Mewtwo X is an EKiller check, but isn't really a check for SD Arceus-Ground and is checked by SD Arceus-Ghost. Mega Lucario is not an EKiller check in a general sense because it's outsped and OHKOed by common coverage, and can only be used to check EKiller when you know your opponent is going to use a specific set. It's also checked by SD Arceus-Ground and SD Arceus-Ghost.
The proposed Zygarde-C checks caused me to review the revenge killers on this section. I've added all of these and moved the purely revenge killers to the back as none of these can reasonably switch in.
Apparently Muk-A runs Sneak these days, but I never build with it in USM.
Made other earlier proposed changes as well. Check edits log for details.
The proposed Zygarde-C checks caused me to review the revenge killers on this section. I've added all of these and moved the purely revenge killers to the back as none of these can reasonably switch in.
Apparently Muk-A runs Sneak these days, but I never build with it in USM.
Made other earlier proposed changes as well. Check edits log for details.
I would add the following:
Gliscor to Primal Groudon Checks, Zygarde-C (Toxic + Taunt beats all defensive variants) Checks, Ho-Oh (all defensive variants) Checks, Ground Immunities, Stealth Rock Setters, and Anti-Hazard Support
Claydol to Primal Groudon Checks, Swords Dance Arceus (Groundceus) Checks, Ground Immunities, Stealth Rock Setters, and Anti-Hazard Support
Togekiss to Zygarde-C Checks, Dark Type Resists, Ground Immunities, Anti-Hazard Support, and Clerics
Mega Lopunny to Dark-Type Resists, Ghost-Type Resists, and Priority
Mega Pinsir to Ground Immunities, Stealth Rock Setters, and Priority
Toxapex to Swords Dance Arceus (Ekiller, with Haze) Checks and Ho-Oh (gets Toxic off against defensive variants, Regenerator allows for scouting against offensive variants) Checks
Ho-Oh to Swords Dance Arceus (Ekiller, with Roar) Checks and Ho-Oh (same as Toxapex) Checks
Ferrothorn, Shuckle, and Skarmory to Stealth Rock Setters
Mega Glalie to Spikes | Toxic Spikes and Priority
Scolipede to Spikes | Toxic Spikes
Giratina-A, Klefki, Lunala, Skarmory, and Smeargle to Anti-Hazard Support
Gliscor to Primal Groudon Checks, Zygarde-C (Toxic + Taunt beats all defensive variants) Checks, Ho-Oh (all defensive variants) Checks, Ground Immunities, Stealth Rock Setters, and Anti-Hazard Support
Claydol to Primal Groudon Checks, Swords Dance Arceus (Groundceus) Checks, Ground Immunities, Stealth Rock Setters, and Anti-Hazard Support
Togekiss to Zygarde-C Checks, Dark Type Resists, Ground Immunities, Anti-Hazard Support, and Clerics
Mega Lopunny to Dark-Type Resists, Ghost-Type Resists, and Priority
Mega Pinsir to Ground Immunities, Stealth Rock Setters, and Priority
Toxapex to Swords Dance Arceus (Ekiller, with Haze) Checks and Ho-Oh (gets Toxic off against defensive variants, Regenerator allows for scouting against offensive variants) Checks
Ho-Oh to Swords Dance Arceus (Ekiller, with Roar) Checks and Ho-Oh (same as Toxapex) Checks
Ferrothorn, Shuckle, and Skarmory to Stealth Rock Setters
Mega Glalie to Spikes | Toxic Spikes and Priority
Scolipede to Spikes | Toxic Spikes
Giratina-A, Klefki, Lunala, Skarmory, and Smeargle to Anti-Hazard Support
Hello, DuffettFan, I would like to try to correct some of your suggestions :
"Togekiss to Zygarde-C Checks" the main problem is that Togekiss, now, can't switch on zyg dragon dance, because at +1 Thousand Arrows is a 2hoko after Stealth Rock, and the best option of Togekiss against Zyg (Dazzling Gleam) is only 3hoko...
More, the Zygarde Dragon Dance team is often based on Zygarde dd + Mega Gengar. these team have no problem at break Togekiss.
I think I can say that Togekiss is not a check.
"Mega Pinsir to Ground Immunities" it's questionable. now, Pinsir can't switch to any of the viable ground types in ubers. Even niche pokémon, like the forms of Landorus can ohko on switch.
"Ferrothorn, Shuckle, and Skarmory to Stealth Rock Setters" Agree except Shuckle.
"Mega Glalie to Spikes | Toxic Spikes and Priority" Disagree. Ice Shard does little dommages (does't ohko Mega-Salamence for exemple, only 15% on xerneas...)
to finish, the most part your suggestions concerns pokémons out of VR.
I do not think it would be good to add roles on pokémon out of VR. Thank
"Togekiss to Zygarde-C Checks" the main problem is that Togekiss, now, can't switch on zyg dragon dance, because at +1 Thousand Arrows is a 2hoko after Stealth Rock, and the best option of Togekiss against Zyg (Dazzling Gleam) is only 3hoko...
More, the Zygarde Dragon Dance team is often based on Zygarde dd + Mega Gengar. these team have no problem at break Togekiss.
I think I can say that Togekiss is not a check.
"Mega Pinsir to Ground Immunities" it's questionable. now, Pinsir can't switch to any of the viable ground types in ubers. Even niche pokémon, like the forms of Landorus can ohko on switch.
"Ferrothorn, Shuckle, and Skarmory to Stealth Rock Setters" Agree except Shuckle.
"Mega Glalie to Spikes | Toxic Spikes and Priority" Disagree. Ice Shard does little dommages (does't ohko Mega-Salamence for exemple, only 15% on xerneas...)
to finish, the most part your suggestions concerns pokémons out of VR.
I do not think it would be good to add roles on pokémon out of VR. Thank
1. Togekiss is in fact able to switch into DD Zygarde and proceed to wall it/prevent a sweep with Growl, in the same way that Blissey counters Geomancy Xerneas with Confide.
2. Mega Gengar is not a threat to Togekiss so long as Shed Shell is paired, the same way that Mega Gengar + Xerneas cannot break Shed Shell Blissey.
3. Shuckle is one of the three viable Sticky Web-setters of the metagame and distinguishes itself from Ribombee in part due to the possibility of compressing both Sticky Web and Stealth Rock into a single slot.
4. Ice Shard is a noteworthy appeal of adding Mega Glalie to a Sticky Web team due to the archetype's struggle against Defog Mega Salamence and Yveltal.
Regarding the disparity between the Pokémon in this thread and the VR, there should be little correlation between the two, due to the rate at which either thread is updated. If anything, this thread should aim to be as comprehensive as possible in order to make apparent the tools available when team-building in this metagame. This is in lieu to the fact that the unranked Pokémon that I proposed in fact fulfill all of the roles on the team which I have delineated, which makes their viability in the metagame self-evident, and the fact that several Pokémon excluded from the VR in turn appear on multiple lists in this thread, such as Mega Latios, Landorus-T, Bronzong, Clefable, and Greninja. To clarify, I believe that Pokémon appearing here but not on the VR is but a problem with the lack of updates on part of the VR, and that this thread should, if anything, strive for inclusivity in acknowledging the merits that various Pokémon bring to the table.
1&2. Okay, i don't know that Togekiss learned Grwol, and effectively togekiss can switch.
3. Where to put SR ? Sticky Web is mandatory (if not, shuckle is purely and simply outclassed by another sr setteur) Encore idem, Toxic is best way for punish opposing pokémon, Rock tomb is great for slow down flying type, and with help one taunt (like yv taunt) preserve sticky web.
4. Scarf Yveltal with defog, if he wants it, he can do. if mega-salamence have intimidate your glalie idem. obviously they die on return/frustration but they removed sticky web. it comes back to what I said above : Priority is not powerful enough.
(252 Atk Glalie-Mega Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO)
(-1 252 Atk Glalie-Mega Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salamence: 204-240 (61.6 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO )
I think, however, that this theard should be primarily for beginners and not for more advanced people.
maybe it should be preferred pokémons to which it is easy to create a team in this theard ?
anyway, it's not me who will decide your appointments.
Thank
I created an Ultra Necrozma section and an anti-offense section (unfortunately a lot of this is buried in nuance, i.e. scarf vs. anti-lead vs. priority etc.). I changed the Mega Mence section to Flying-type resists as any decent team with a Flying-type resist should have sufficient additional bulkmons to provide a reasonable check.
I don't like how Giratina-O and Giratina-A aren't in the Necrozma-DM checks section, as they take +2 Sunsteel Strike to at the very least cripple it w/ Wisp (Gira-O also 1v1s). I know Z-Move is a thing but w/ that logic Arc-Ground/Dark and Mega Sableye shouldn't be in the section either as they lose if Necrozma-DM SDs on the switch (M-Sab also has a high chance to drop to +2 Sunsteel after rocks, while Giratina-O guaranteed lives after rocks).
Also add Giratina-A to Ultra Necro checks and Anti-Hazard Support, especially the latter, as the whole reason Giratina-A gets any use in the Ubers tier is as a Defogger on stall teams.
Additionally, add Mega Lopunny to Ghost-Type checks, it's definitely more relevant in that section than Mega Kanga, who just loses to Marsh, Lunala, and Arc-Ghost bc of Fighting-Type coverage and struggles to switch into Giratina-O bc of status + Dragon STAB, while M-Lop can outspeed all of the Ghost-Types in the tier and revenge kill most of them w/ chip damage.
Also add Giratina-A to Ultra Necro checks and Anti-Hazard Support, especially the latter, as the whole reason Giratina-A gets any use in the Ubers tier is as a Defogger on stall teams.
Additionally, add Mega Lopunny to Ghost-Type checks, it's definitely more relevant in that section than Mega Kanga, who just loses to Marsh, Lunala, and Arc-Ghost bc of Fighting-Type coverage and struggles to switch into Giratina-O bc of status + Dragon STAB, while M-Lop can outspeed all of the Ghost-Types in the tier and revenge kill most of them w/ chip damage.
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