Ubers CCAT 3 - Skies are Clear

[blitzlefan]

Could we replace Dialga with Arceus-Steel? Looking back, Dialga is inferior to Arceus-Steel in checking Arceus-Ghost, but obviously we can't use other Arceus forms so it comes at some opportunity cost. Arceus-Steel better checks Arceus-Ghost because of its massive bulk, and can stomach a +1 Focus Blast rather well and phaze it out, then Calm Mind up or Recover the damage lost. For this, we'll need a high investment in Special Defense, but this provides us a win condition as well. This shifts momentum to our side, and allows us to set up, while providing insurance against Dragon-types. What I'm thinking at the moment: Deoxys-S / Terrakion / Latios / (Dialga or Arceus-Steel) / (Rayquaza or Giratina-O) / Darkrai.

 

[akuto]

i agree with trick, actually i think I've been trying to make that point across that DIALGA CANNOT really check ghostceus. For he can phase it and take 80% of his hp with a boosted fighting type move or para take a hit and die next turn "hoping to phase it" and my question is how will steelceus do any better? He can't phase it "assuming he are not going to run roar" he can only burn or poison it and thats pretty much it. So lets give a scenario enamy ghostceus is full health he boosts +1 CM while you switch into steelceus, he boosts again to +2 while you toxic him, you stay in this turn he goes for Focus fail hits "max hit points invested steelceus-timid max SATTK invested ghostceus" 94.1% - 111.3% 418 - 494 guaranteed OHKO after hazard damage, he switches out into blissy HEAL BELL no status wish passes ghostceus on latios forces switch out boosts to +1.

CBray i have tried and is very weak to a revenge kill for scarf ogre if locked in. i usually run dragon claw in place of EQ so I am not SO WEAK to revenge killers.

 

[Sweep]

We really need to add something to beat Ghostceus. I wholeheartedly agree. Dialga gives us something that can spread paralysis and phaze, making it easier for pokemon like Latios to clean late-game. However, we really need to add something like Darkrai to dispose of Ghostceus (Ho-Oh would work with RS support, but this is a Hyper Offensive team so I don't think a spinner is viable).

I am hearing a lot of talk about weather sweepers. Let's look at our current team and see how we stack up against them:

Life Orb Kabutops: A problem, but Dialga can take a Low Kick and kill with with Draco Meteor. Terrakion can revenge since most LO Kabutops forego Aqua Jet for Rapid Spin and run Adamant over Jolly (Terrakion outspeeds Adamant Kabutops).

Choice Band Kabutops: A major problem late game. Aqua Jet can OHKO Terrakion, Low Kick kills Dialga now after a little prior damage, and Kabutops murders both Latios and Deoxys-S with its STAB moves. Dialga can switch into Stone Edge or Waterfall and force it out/kill it, and Terrakion still outspeeds and revenges if it is stuck on a move other than Aqua Jet, but Banded tops can wreck this team with good prediction. We need to have an answer for this.

Life Orb Omastar: More manageable than Kabutops, but still a minor problem. If Terrakion locks itself into Stone Edge, Omastar will get a free Smash and wreck our team as is currently constituted. Without the smash, Dialga takes only ~55% or so from Earth Power and kills it. Latios takes 60-65% or so from Ice Beam and again kills it. There's not much you can do about Omastar as it comes in to revenge weakened mons, because if the opponent smashes as you switch out you lose. With that said, this is less threatening to this team than Kabutops.

White Herb/Focus Sash Omastar: Not a problem so long hazards are up.

Life Orb Kingdra: This murders Latios, Deoxys-S, and Terrakion while dealing decent damage to Dialga. I am really warming up to Dialga now as it deals fairly well with these weather sweepers! Still, if Dialga is weakened Kingdra will be a severe issue. Fortunately, Kingdra cannot hit nearly as hard as Omastar so whatever Arceus form we add (while likely incapable of dealing with Omastar or perhaps Kabutops) should be able to beat Kingdra 1-1.

Life Orb Ludiculo: The only weather sweeper capable of beating Dialga 1-1 as Focus Blast 2HKO's Dialga while Draco Meteor cannot OHKO Ludiculo in return. Latios easily takes an Ice Beam (does maximum of 50% or so) and wipes it out with Draco Meteor. Terrakion is outsped and beaten. Like Kingdra and Band Kabutops, Ludiculo is an issue we need to find a consistent answer for.

Chlorophyllers: Venusaur can sleep something but after the sleep Latios beats it easily. Victreebel is in the same boat. Shiftry is really scary thanks to STAB Sucker Punch and Swords Dance. It can also outrun and OHKO Terrakion. Nature Power (Earthquake) deals strong damage to Dialga. Shiftry destroys our entire team if either:

A. It gets up a Swords Dance (unlikely, but again, we must be careful about locking Terrakion into Stone Edge); or

B. If Dialga is weakened.

Things we can add to beat Kabutops include Giratina-A, Giratina-O, and Rayquaza.

Things we can add to survive a hit from a +2 Omastar that fit into a Hyper Offensive team include Palkia and Latias. That's it, but we have Omastar covered I think.

Things we can add to deal with Kingdra include Rayquaza, Arceus-Normal, Arceus-Steel, and perhaps a more obscure Arceus form. If we add both Rayquaza and an Arceus form, Kingdra will no longer be an issue.

Things we can add to deal with Ludiculo include Palkia, Zekrom (can take an Ice Beam), almost all Arceus forms, Rayquaza, and Latias.

Things we add to deal with Shiftry include Rayquaza (though Sucker Punch hurts quite badly, especially after SR...Rayquaza isn't a good check at all), Palkia, Arceus-Normal, Arceus-Ghost, and if we really want a counter, Arceus-Flying. Much like Kingdra, EKiller would mitigate our weakness to Shiftry.

Sorry to ramble, but I fear weather sweepers right now. I am guessing Darkrai will be added at some point to deal with Ghostceus -- as it probably should -- but that will only make us weaker to weather sweepers. Defensive Dialga was a solid addition, but cannot take on weather sweepers by itself. I suggest we consider Extremekiller, Darkrai, and Palkia as we continue to progress through this CCAT. Still, I feel we are off to a good start.

 

[Gogeta]

After watching the replay Akuto posted, do we really have a way of threatening Lugia? I know most Lugia can't hurt us back, but its bulk could completely quash all the offensive momentum we've been trying to build (or at least from what I've read, sorry if this sounds patronising or anything from a newcomer, I have read the whole thread).

252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 206-246 (49.51 - 59.13%) -- 71.09% chance to 2HKO

Terrakion cannot reliably 2HKO, and if Lugia is at multiscale, it can easily roost/recover stall until stone edge inevitably misses, in which case it can sub and bring our whole team to a grinding halt.

252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Lugia: 222-262 (53.36 - 62.98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

To the same Lugia, Latios can reliably 2HKO. However, if Lugia is above 62.98% when it comes in (which isn't too unfathomable, given that we don't have a spinblocker and lack a real way of damaging it), it too can roost/recover stall Draco Meteors, set up a sub, and once again kill our momentum.

Lugia ain't really giving two shits about Dialga either, and Deoxys will be dead before you can taunt it.

I know Lugia may not be too high on your priorities, as it can't really hurt us back, but it's a nightmare for offensive teams to come up against. As it stands, Lugia is free to spread status, set up subs, phaze with hazard support as we have no spinner, and just be a general pain in the ass. Hell if Dialga goes down, Sub CM Lugia could actually be problematic for us.

To remedy this, I really feel we should either pack Darkrai or a spinblocker. LO Darkrai always 2HKOs with Dark Pulse (55.04 - 65.62%), or it can simply put Lugia to sleep and make it death fodder for the enemy, eliminating all the troubles we could have with it. Furthermore, Darkrai in combination with Dialga should thoroughly neutralise the Ghostceus problem.

Then again, Lugia isn't an immediate threat like Blaziken, so you may want to leave this one until the end. Hell you could just throw Ice Beam on Latios to stop Lugia doing any more than roosting or spreading status. This could likely replace HP Fire, as chances are Ferro will be in the rain anyway, in which case you can only 3HKO: 252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 152-180 (43.18 - 51.13%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. Like I said though, Lugia isn't a huuuuuuuuuge threat, so you could deal with it later :)

 

[akuto]

I'm not to keen about darkrai still, I have given an explanation on why i dislike him for this team. I'm pretty sure offensive GIRA-O can do some work to lugia? standard physical attacker giratina-o shadowclaw VS standard wall lugia 51% - 60.6% 212 - 252 guaranteed 2HKO after SR, ShadowForce 86.5% - 102.4% 360 - 426 guaranteed OHKO after SR.

maybe we could even run a subCm set?

and latios carrying ice beam i can agree on, I'm pretty sure either blitz or jack said at some point that "we don't want to have pokemon who are crippled by weather or moves" something like that, in which they used to counter my arceus-Water set **:l** i still suggest waterceus he can exort pressure on the enemy team including sun teams.

 

[jackm]

The problem with Waterceus, which is not that it's cripple by weather (I mean it is but that's not its fundamental flaw) is that, as I explained earlier, it clashes with the spinblockers. Don't twist my words.

 

[blitzlefan]

I'm not to keen about darkrai still, I have given an explanation on why i dislike him for this team. I'm pretty sure offensive GIRA-O can do some work to lugia? standard physical attacker giratina-o shadowclaw VS standard wall lugia 51% - 60.6% 212 - 252 guaranteed 2HKO after SR, ShadowForce 86.5% - 102.4% 360 - 426 guaranteed OHKO after SR.

maybe we could even run a subCm set?

and latios carrying ice beam i can agree on, I'm pretty sure either blitz or jack said at some point that "we don't want to have pokemon who are crippled by weather or moves" something like that, in which they used to counter my arceus-Water set **:l** i still suggest waterceus he can exort pressure on the enemy team including sun teams.

Although this wasn't used to shoot down the idea altogether, I still think that it's best we avoid team members that can be weakened / neutered in weather. For example, although Reshiram is a good Pokemon, it would be best to avoid it for this specific CCAT because of our inability to control the weather. Again Rain, Sand, and nonweather teams, Arceus-Water should be okay, but against Sun teams, it will simply be a liability.

Darkrai seems like a better and better option AS LONG AS we have some way to beat Genesect (Deoxys-S and Dialga), Terrakion (Latios I guess?), and Mewtwo (Darkrai can get past it but we'll need some luck / prediction / prior damage or Sleep Clause not active yet).

 

[lousy918]

uh most of m2's counters clash with someone already on our team, but they could still work I guess?

• Deoxys-D (we are already using Deoxys-S)
• Jirachi (checks CM Ghostceus, Dialga can deal with SD)
• Physically defensive Ho-Oh (needs SR off the field and check Ghostceus under the same conditions)
• SDef Darkceus
• Bronzong (lack of recovery and Jirachi exists)
• Psychiceus
• Scizor (lol)
• A bunch of scarfers (inflexible)
• Giratina-O (check, can revenge half HP Mewtwo)
• Chople Tyranitar with Atk investment

 

[Gogeta]

Darkrai or Giratina-O look like they're going to be required for this team. I don't think we should worry that much about countering Mewtwo, seeing as it basically gives every team trouble, even those that do pack a counter to it. Right now we can deal with it fairly well as it is:

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latios: 190-224 (62.91 - 74.17%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Latios can survive a hit and fire this off in return:

252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo: 373-441 (105.36 - 124.57%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even if Latios is down, the combination of Dialga and Terrakion can take it down. Dialga can always live an aura sphere, and do 74.85 - 88.41% in return with draco meteor. If this doesn't Kill Mewtwo outright (prior damage and whatnot), then terrak could easily clean up with Close Combat. Calm Mind Mewtwo is a little more threatening, but so long as we limit it to +1, it still can't break through Latios or Dialga reliably:

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Dialga: 359-424 (88.86 - 104.95%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latios: 281-333 (93.04 - 110.26%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Then we can fire back with Terrakion after we Draco the Mewtwo for catastrophic damage. Of course this is just with our current team frame, if we pack Giratina-O we basically neuter Mewtwo fairly effectively (well, it can only take down one poke reliably, which is checking enough for a threat like Mewtwo).

Yea, as it stands I'm really liking Giratina-O. We just check so much and fill so many roles with it that I can't see why we wouldn't pick it. And if you're unsure about innovation, then we don't have to just rip a set from the analysis; we could all work together to make our own, and if it works, then that could go into the analysis?

I don't know, I think I'm getting ahead of myself, lol. Point is: Go for Giratina-O

 

[lousy918]

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latios: 281-333 (93.04 - 110.26%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Dialga: 359-424 (88.86 - 104.95%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Terrakion X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 192-226 (54.23 - 63.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

As you can see, both have a pretty high chance of getting OHKOed with SR up, and Terrakion fails to OHKO. Therefore, one of the above becomes mandatory.

 

[Gogeta]

The only thing that's putting me off Giratina-O is that Ferrothorn and Skarmory are gonna be a pain in the ass then. Our last slot would have to be dedicated to beating hazard setting steels, because Latios cannot break many steels at all in the rain, and Terrakion can't get through Skarmory or Forretress before they set up all over it.

Our other option to beat Mewtwo is Darkrai then (who also checks Ghostceus very nicely too.) The problem is that we're forced to run sash, as Mewtwo always OHKOs with Aura Sphere before we can even move. Darkrai can pretty much always OHKO after rocks and LO recoil, but then we're left at one percent health. Seeing as we won't be able to sweep without a boosting item, how would you feel about a dual status Darkrai? I'm thinking a set like this:

Darkrai @ Focus Sash
Timid nature
252 SpA/252 Spd/4 HP
-Dark Void
-Thunder Wave
-Dark Pulse
-Sucker Punch

This set allows us to survive our encounter with Mewtwo 100% of the time if Sash is intact, and if it isn't, then we can Sucker Punch to do 44.06 - 52.54%, which is enough to allow Terrakion to revenge kill with X Scissor. If we survive the exchange with Mewtwo, then we can Thunder Wave or Dark Void whatever comes in, or Sucker Punch if its faster to do OK damage.

Whichever one we pick, we'll still have trouble breaking through steel types, which is why I suggest we pick something that can do in the last slot. Perhaps something like CM Arceus Fighting could work?

 

[blitzlefan]

Dialga is already running Thunder Wave so perhaps Focus Blast could go there instead. Also, Sucker Punch seems highly situational, but I guess it's okay? I think Substitute or Nasty Plot could go there too? I think this team necessitates Darkrai to cover threats though.

 

[Gogeta]

Sub/Nasty Plot Darkrai doesn't leave us much room to try anything unconventional though. We'll just end up building a generic HO team. I know the Darkrai set I posted isn't the greatest, but it's viable and is a little more outside the box?

 

[blitzlefan]

I suppose that we could run toxic on Dialga then? Or is 2 thunder wave users still viable?

 

[Gogeta]

We don't have to run T-Wave on Darkrai at all, I just thought I'd post something a little more out there. But I totally understand if you want to run a sweeping set (though then it can't even check Mewtwo because it's murdered on switch-in, meaning our last slot would have to go to checking Mewtwo).

 

[akuto]

The problem with your set that I'm having is CM eleceus. I know it's not common but it has to be thrown out there because I have seen it. Also groudon can easily set up with SD RP and take darkpulse 36.4% - 43.1% 147 - 174 sucker punch 10.4% - 12.6% 42 - 51 so groudon can easily take you out. Another note darkrai should carry toxic not dialga. since we have no speed eve's aside from 8 dialga needs T-WAVE.


My set for G-o

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Brave (+attck -speed)
200HP/252ATTCK/56sdef
~Wilo-Wisp
~Shadow Sneak
~Dragon Tail
~Draco meteor

 

[blitzlefan]

akuto, why Draco Meteor over Outrage? With your current set, Outrage should hit much harder, and this means you can run an Adamant nature (along with some speed creep) to beat some other defensive mons like Ho-oh.

Also, sadly, Giratina-O is still weak to Arceus-Ghost and is extremely slow, and makes our team less offensive than we want it to be. (Is our team really Offense or Balance?) Furthermore, it exacerbates our Dragon weakness and doesn't have very good synergy with Latios. Personally, I think Rayquaza + Dialga can handle Weather abusers and this leaves us room for Darkrai, which is necessary as well to cover Lugia, Arceus-Ghost, Mewtwo, etc. However, this leaves us without an Arceus form in which I think Arceus-Steel can replace Dialga, but with a similar CM set.

 

[lousy918]

The problem with your set that I'm having is CM eleceus. I know it's not common but it has to be thrown out there because I have seen it. Also groudon can easily set up with SD RP and take darkpulse 36.4% - 43.1% 147 - 174 sucker punch 10.4% - 12.6% 42 - 51 so groudon can easily take you out. Another note darkrai should carry toxic not dialga. since we have no speed eve's aside from 8 dialga needs T-WAVE.


My set for G-o

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Brave (+attck -speed)
200HP/252ATTCK/56sdef
~Wilo-Wisp
~Shadow Sneak
~Dragon Tail
~Draco meteor

? how does that work? darkrai is faster, so it'll be able to get off an emergency t-wave, faster does not necessarily mean t-wave is shit
also on darkrai we are not able to beat steels either? we can only sleep them, while the opponent will most likely let something else take the sleep. gira-o can also do enough with shadow sneak to put m2 in terrakion revenge killing range

 

[Gogeta]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Scarf is the wrong item for Terrakion on this team. Simply because the most effective way of dealing with Mewtwo is by smashing it to pieces with a powerful scarfer, like Draco's from 150 dragons, Outrage from Zekrom, Chomp or Dialga. This is less limiting than carrying a specific check or counter. Terrakion though cannot muster more than 64% to Mewtwo with a super effective hit. Terrakion is just too weak for a scarf imo.


So would it be OK to swap Terrakion's scarf for a choice band, LO, or SD set? This not only helps us greatly with breaking steels, it also frees up a slot for a more powerful choice scarfer. I for one could see scarf Palkia or even scarf Kyurem-W helping immensely on this team. Terrakion also still outspeeds Extremekiller by some margin with Jolly (though the amount of max speed Extremekillers I've been seeing recently is too damn high). Furthermore, I really feel like Dialga should also be changed to a Support Steelceus set. That dragon resist over a neutrality cannot be underestimated. It provides us with a great bulky poke to help against Dragon spam without sacrificing momentum due to Steelceus' speed and attacking options.

Finally, I'm finally gonna stop flip flopping and make my mind up with Giratina-O and Darkrai: Giratina-O is the superior choice. Giratina-O is just better in every way for me tbh: We can check Mewtwo better because we can actually move before we get killed with Shadow Sneak, we can also do healthy damage to Ghostceus, who can be stopped by an absurdly powerful scarfer, we can spinblock, and with the changes I'd like to see put in, the steel problem is solved elsewhere.


Here's what I could plausibly see the final team looking like:
Latios: Wallbreaker
Deoxys: Hazard layer
Terrakion: Steel breaker, potential sweeper too
Steelceus: Dragon Sponge, general support
Giratina-O: Spinblocker, general check to everything lol
Palkia: Revenge killer, anti-weather, check to Mewtwo to an extent

 

[blitzlefan]

Switching Terrakion's item was discussed a little bit on the last page, but if you have ideas, please go ahead.

tl;dr
-Scarf Terrakion allows us to beat fully/heavily invested (in Speed) Arceus-Dark, Arceus-Normal, etc.
-Scarf Terrakion allows us to check Scarf/boosted Dragons like DD Rayquaza
-Scarf Terrakion is a good revenge killer (eg Mewtwo at like 50% and below)

If we switch items, then we lose most of these things and as we already have a wallbreaker in Latios, there won't really be much need for Terrakion IMO. Also, without Choice Scarf, Arceus-Normal gets realy scary.

However, you are right, Terrakion is generally pretty weak but I think powerful priority from Arceus-Normal or Rayquaza could help deal with this.

 

[akuto]

blitz we must take into account that bulky normceus can take 1 CC from a scarfer and rack can take *1* Espeed from arceus. So healthy bulky arceus can take out rack so i would suggest CB as well as i did before. And my gir-o set I've used it before and it worked alot so i suggested it here since hes going to be on our team anyway.

Still need a check for blazikin going back to a waterceus or some palkia set.

 

[blitzlefan]

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 336-396 (83.37 - 98.26%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 193-227 (59.56 - 70.06%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The Extreme Killer can 2HKO with boosted ExtremeSpeed, but has a good chance of being OHKO'd after Stealth Rock, and a guaranteed OHKO with a layer of Spikes added to that, which should be there (Deoxys-S).

However, without a boosting item (bulky Arceus-Normal will obviously not run Life Orb and will probably run Leftovers instead), "bulky" Arceus-Normal has no chance to 2HKO with a boosted ExtremeSpeed unless Stealth Rock is on the field in which case,

+2 252 Atk Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 135-159 (41.66 - 49.07%) -- 16.02% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock,

while Terrakion can come in and deal 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 336-396 (75.67 - 89.18%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.

Point is, as long as Terrakion has Choice Scarf, we have basically nothing to fear from Arceus-Normal.

Furthermore, Wallceus can't even touch Terrakion with either Return or Ice Beam.

 

[Sweep]

Wallceus can paralyze it with Thunder Wave or burn it with Will-O-Wisp, crippling it for the rest of the match. With that said, Wallceus is really rare (though I plan to start using it more). Terrakion is indeed a good check to EKiller by the way, but having more than one check to arguably the best sweeper in the game isn't a bad idea. Physically defensive Giratina-O and Ghostceus can do well against EK.

 

[blitzlefan]

So these are the things that we need, listed in order of importance (IMO):

1 to find a better check to Arceus-Ghost, Mewtwo, Lugia, etc.
2. a way to beat weather sweepers
3. more offensive team members to take advantage of hazards
4. a powerful scarfer/priority as backup
5. win condition
6. a backup check to Arceus-Normal, if possible
7. an Arceus form

I think Rayquaza covers 2,3, 4, and possibly 5, while Darkrai covers 1 and 3, and Giratina-O covers 2, 4 ,and can kind of take 3 (however, Arceus-Ghost beats Giratina-O, and I think Mewtwo can win as well). Arceus-Steel can tackle 1,5, and 7.

 

[akuto]

Wallceus can paralyze it with Thunder Wave or burn it with Will-O-Wisp, crippling it for the rest of the match. With that said, Wallceus is really rare (though I plan to start using it more). Terrakion is indeed a good check to EKiller by the way, but having more than one check to arguably the best sweeper in the game isn't a bad idea. Physically defensive Giratina-O and Ghostceus can do well against EK.

Arceus doesn't get T-wave and blitz most people run silk scarf or something.