Trickroom with Oomf.

[Toilet Technician]

Hello Smogon! I'm a recent lurker gone user, so please bear with me if this isn't necessarily an adequate RMT. The Team I present you with today is a Trickroom team that is of pretty standard layout, 2 pokemon who set up trickroom, with 4 trickroom sweepers. Doubles format is my weakest area in making teams, and while I've made a fantastic triples team, and an adequate singles team (both for wi-fi use), I've always come up disappointingly short on my doubles teams. I was hoping that by posting the current doubles team I use up in this thread, I could receive insight into my blunders, which I seem to be oblivious to. So with out further ado, I present the team.

The Team at a Glance

A short summary:
The basic concept of this team started with my desire to once again attempt to build a doubles team that might actually be competitive. I started with a play style that I was comfortable with, trickroom, and then began to build the team around the Dusclops, Dusknoir, Hariyama core that was the key to my success in triples. I then decided to drop Dusknoir for Musharna,(which was then replaced by Cresselia) for a solid counter to fighting types, and the fact that it did Musharna's job better. I then wanted something that could power through things just as well as Hariyama, so I picked up Rampardos, who was slow enough to be effective in trickroom against fast teams, but fast enough out of trickroom to stomp on slower trickroom teams. Camerupt and Octilery came last, with Octilery chosen for its coverage and access to waterspout, and Camerupt for eruption, which I thought would compliment waterspout nicely. The team out speeds slower trickroom teams, but is still needs trickroom support against faster teams.

The Team

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Cresselia(M) @ Mental Herb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SpD
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spe)
- Trick Room
- Psychic
- Helping Hand
- Light Screen

Cresselia is the main trickroomer out of the two on my team, simply because with the combination of Hariyama's Fake Out, plus its mental herb, it will for the most part get trickroom up as long as it isn't taking on a very powerful boosted super effective attack. Helping hand give the extra push to make sure it's team mates get the KO's that are crucial,. Psychic prevents it from being destroyed by taunt, plus threaten Fighting and Poison types. Light Screen is used only when I absolutely need to raise my Sp.D across the board. (i.e. when facing rain/sun teams)

Dusclops(M) @ Evolite
Nickname: Buchenwald
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spe)
- Trickroom
- Nightshade
- Helping Hand
- Will-o-wisp

Buchenwald pays somewhat similar to Cresselia, but when he is used, he is a backup for Cresselia. Nightshade helps take out damaged pokemon, and WoW takes out physical threats, bar those with guts. Not really much else to say.

Hariyama(M) @ Flame Orb
Nickname: Sun Tzu
Trait: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 124 Def / 132 SDef
Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spe)
- Close Combat
- Rockslide
- Fake out
- Detect Replaced Bullet Punch

The backbone of the team, Sun Tzu has the very important job of making sure trickroom gets up. Fake out is invaluable for the first turn, meaning that Cresselia or Dusclops only have to take on on Pokemon when setting up. Once Guts is activated, he proceeds to go about doing as much damage as possible with CC and Rockslide, and Detect for trouble situations. He is the star of the team.

Rampardos(M) @ Stone Plate
Nickname: Packie
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spe)
- Rock Slide Replaced Earthquake
- Head Smash
- Fire Punch
- Protect Replaced Subsitute

Packie is an absolute monster when he can stay alive. He is able to take out things the rest of the team can't handle, such as Reuniclus. But with his power also cause some of my biggest head aches, such as mold breaker eliminating levitate, rendering earthquake useless unless Hariyama or Camerupt is out on the field beside him and can throw up a protect/detect. rock slide is a solid stab move that can hit both the opponents pokemon. Fire punch is there to hit Grass and Ice types super effective. Lastly, protect is used when the Trickroom is about to disappear, potentially saving him till it gets back up, or buying him a turn if in trouble.

Octilery(M) @ Life Orb Replaced Water Gem
Nickname: Gustav
Trait: Sniper
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature (+SpA, -Spe)
- Water Spout
- Ice Beam
- Energy Ball
- Signal Beam Replaced Protect

Named after the largest artillery piece in history, Gustav can live up to his namesake. His main attack, Water Spout, can clear the field of play if the Pokemon on the other side do not resist it. Ice beam is to hit the fairly common Dragon types hard, and Energy ball handles Gastrodon. Signal Beam lets it hit Ludicolo, Reuniclus, and rounds up the coverage nicely.

Camerupt(M) @ Fire Gem
Nickname: Mt. Fuji
Trait: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature (+SpA, -Spe)
- Eruption
- Hidden Power (Ice)
- Earth Power
- Protect

Plays similarly to Octilery, but isn't locked into one move. Eruption rips apart anything that does not resist it. Hp Ice hits dragons hard, and earth power is a solid stab move. Protect buys it time to reset trickroom, or save it from impending danger.

Cut Team Members

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Musharna(M) @ Mental Herb
Nickname: Larz
Trait: Telepathy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spe)
- Trickroom
- Psychic
- Helping Hand
- Light Screen

Threats Need to test new updates extensively to update accurately

: Faster than my Sweepers in trick room, is able to neuter Camerupt and Octilery, Wall Dusclops and Musharna, and hit Hariyama Super effectively. Rampardos must be alive to KO it.

:Faster than my Sweepers in trick room, able to walk all over my sweepers, unless Cresselia is able to take it down. Still a threat out of trick room due to Mach Punch.

Unless Rampardos is still alive and in trick room, Jellicent is too bulk diesel for the rest of the team to handle effectively.

Final Word
In case it wasn't obvious, I tend to stay away from the more common and easier to use Pokemon. Saying that I won't use them is a lie, I just like to stick to the road less traveled per say. If it wasn't made clear, the team is set up for VGC rules, which means I only select four for battle. Any rate is welcome, as I could use all the insight I can get, and if you do take the time to write up a rate, thank you.

 

[pokemaster649]

First things first, you can't have the same item on a team (in the vgc of course), I suggest get rid of mental herb on duclops and give it a evolite (plus taunt is not common this year). Personally, I don't think that octillery would be a good option. Go for another water spout user, such as jellicent. I think heatran would be a better option for eruption. Hairyama would need protect.

 

[Toilet Technician]

First things first, you can't have the same item on a team (in the vgc of course), I suggest get rid of mental herb on duclops and give it a evolite (plus taunt is not common this year). Personally, I don't think that octillery would be a good option. Go for another water spout user, such as jellicent. I think heatran would be a better option for eruption. Hairyama would need protect.

Thanks for pointing out that error, I forgot to change Dusclops Item, when I copied the format from Musharna :evan:. Jellicent can actually do everything I have Octilery doing, so I'll test that out. Heatran is a bit fast for my tastes, but then again my entire trickroom team is slightly above average in speed. The only thing I question is why hariyama needs protect when it can make it into trick room most of the time with using fake out, and can at the very least take out one of the opponents Pokemon. Thank you for the rate.

 

[pokemaster649]

Well, I didn't say get rid of fake out. Plus that protect was just a suggestion. Go here, it's one of the common sets, but if that set works, don't change it.

 

[The Knights of Wario Land]

Ooh hey, it's nice seeing people use my Camerupt set :>

Overall, this looks to be a fairly-standard TR team, and I like the fact you're utilizing some unique Mons. However, I do have some suggestions:

-Get rid of Musharna and pack some Cresselia, Cress does the job about 250% better than Musharna ever will. Although Cress can be affected by Rampardos' EQ, that's not really the biggest loss, and you can just keep the same exact set you have on the Musharna.
-In my experience with TR teams, Bullet Punch isn't worth it with Hariyama, I'd just replace it with Detect, seeing as Hariyama will be a huge target for the foes.
-I like your Rampardos, but if you really want to run it, use Protect over Substitute. Rampardos will be taking a helluva lot of recoil with Life Orb and Head Smash, so you might find yourself too weak to use Sub. I'd use Rock Slide over Head Smash because it's spread, has a chance of a flinch, and is more accurate, but that's just me.
-I disagree with pokemaster649 about replacing Octillery with Jellicent, if Jellicent was on there you would be MASSIVELY weak to Chandelure, Scrafty, and other TR mons that check Ghosts and Psychics. Maybe you can try and Choice Specs your Octillery, I've found that to be effective, and replace Protect with either Flamethrower, Charge Beam, Signal Beam, or whatever you want.

 

[Toilet Technician]

@The Knights of Wario Land

Camerupt's a boss, and Thank you for pointing out the Chandelure weakness if I had chosen to switch out Octilery for Jellicent. Also, since two people seem to back up the notion that Detect is better than Bullet Punch, I will test it out. I will definitely switch over to Cresselia, simply because telepathy ended up not getting any use on this team. Thanks for the rate!

 

[Drifblim]

Interesting team, but for some reason it doesn't feel very developed. Having 2 really bulky TR setters is really going to be helpful when setting up, I tend to use 1 out of 2 on my TR teams pretty offensively. Aside from the setters, the team is a little on the frail side and all over the slow side. I feel there should be something not too slow or too fast, like a neutral speed base 70-90, or something really fast, like a Scarf user in case TR is down and can't be set back up or it would actually be more beneficial not to set up. Not too sure what could get replaced, but if you are trying not to use common pokemon there would be fewer replacement candidates like I suggested. Now for individual Mons:

Cress:

Dusclops:

Hariyama: Haha, I suggested a set somewhat similar to this somewhere else on Smogon.

Rampardos: Rock is a horrid type defensively. Most offensive Pokemon can super effect it, and even if not they can 2HKO Rampardos because of its bad defenses with ease. I have to doubt Rampardos is much good in VGC. Without TR up, he has to be able to OHKO something to really work against it. Even with TR up, he has weaknesses to common priority moves like Bullet Punch and while he can do severe damage, not everything will go down nicely unless they have previous damage. If you do decide to keep him, Earthquake doesn't bode well with the team. It hurts all the members, one can't Protect against it, and 2 will have their most important moves weakened by it(Oct and Camer).

Octillery: Specs is a kind of meh item for Doubles. While it can be stupidly powerful, it really limits your options and makes the Pokemons use more specific. If you get Spec'd into Water Spout, the damage will keep getting weaker if stuff damages you over time. The other moves have good coverage, but only one can even be used without switching with Specs! Can't think of a better item, unless you really need Water Spout far better options exist in other, bulkier Waters. Moody could make for a better ability if he stays, raising a random stat can be really cool. Remember it is a bit luck based, yet has potential to do really well.

Camerupt: My complaints here a similar to the previous 2. I hate to sound prejudiced and all, but Camerupt again just doesn't work too well in the current format. 4X to Water is horrific weakness, Solid Rock isn't going to help against that. Unless he moves first, mosy physical attackers can do enough to Camerupt that Eruption would do barely any damage. So like the two before, he is a sitting duck without TR up.

Interesting team, I just think many of these Pokemon are a bit outclassed. Some weaknesses I see are Rain and Amoonguss, who will outrun you in TR and can't be hurt too bad unless Camerupt is around.

 

[Toilet Technician]

@ Drifblim

Thanks for some initial overview of the changes I just implimented. While I won't get to test these right away, I will keep some of the stuff in mind. (I'm used to dealing with frail pokemon)

Can you possibly suggest a replacement move for earthquake on rampardos? Also I'll get back to you on how choice specs works out, and I take no offence to the tone you used, Thanks for the rate.

 

[Chinese Dood]

Hammer Arm, Crunch, or Head Smash/Stone Edge are probably your best bets for replacing Earthquake.

Hammer Arm -> With Fire Punch and Rockslide as your other moves, you aren't going to hit Tyranitar very hard (while it can hurt you badly with Low Kick). Hammer Arm will let you hurt Tyranitar while lowering your own speed further.

Crunch -> Your best way of dealing with Cresselia

Head Smash -> You know what this does. It's true though, Life Orb with Head Smash means Rampardos basically will have one turn to kill things and then die from recoil.

I think it might be better to run a Tyranitar instead of Rampardos for a similar effect, especially if you are going with Crunch for the last move. If you are going with Head Smash, you might want to try out Rock Gem (or even Hard Stone/Stone Plate) since you'd have two rock moves, and it's also save you from as much recoil.

 

[Toilet Technician]

@ Chinese Dood

Head Smash will probably replace earthquake, and I just ran some Damage calcs, and there seems to be little benefit to using rock gem over stone plate, so stone plate it is. I also removed choice specs from Octilery and put Life orb on him instead. Thanks for the help.

 

[Drifblim]

I am sorry for being a bit harsh, the team just felt like it could benefit from somewhat heavy revision.

Rampardos: Stone Plate's power boost is a bit low, unless it really helps get a specific kill something else could work better. I can't think of anything much, so it is likely a perfectly fine item. I think Fire Punch's boost to your coverage is it stands is a bit lacking, I would use Ice Punch instead to hit Dragons. Scizor has Occa somewhat commonly, so Fire Punch might not really help there. And Abomasnow, there are already the Rock type moves for that.

 

[Toilet Technician]

@Drifblim

Don't worry at all! Like I said in the post any help was appreciated. Also I went and ran the damage calcs on a 252 hp 252 atk 4 SpD Scizor holding an occa berry, and with a normal fire punch its a 2 hit KO. I then ran a fire gem on that set and got OHKO 56.25% of the time, so would it be worth it to take fire gem off Camerupt and move it onto Rampardos?

 

[Drifblim]

I don't really think so, it has an awfully specific purpose in that case. And that isn't even that great of a OHKO chance. Maybe going back to Rock Gem could be good. Rock Gem Head Smash has the same chance as Fire Gem Fire Punch to OHKO Scizor, they end up having the same base power. Rock Gem Head Smash has potential to murder pretty much everything it is regular effective against, and might get surprise KO's. An issue could be that the Gem is used on Rock Slide beforehand, but even that is very powerful. Did you Rock Gem Head Smash already?

 

[Toilet Technician]

@Drifblim
Yes, and it basically demolished everything. The only reason I considered switching it in favor of another item is am I really gaining any significant KO's by having it on in place of another Item?

 

[voodoo pimp]

I think your team is going to be really vulnerable to offensive teams (particularly other TR teams) because aside from Dusclops and Cresselia, who can't do much back to offensive teams, nothing on your team can really take a hit. Hariyama will get worn down quickly by burn damage and CC drops, Rampardos has bad bulk and typing, and both Octillery and Camerupt have their STABs neutered if they take any significant damage, along with a total lack of recovery on anything. I'm not sure if there's any easy way to fix it aside from completely rebuilding the team, though.

 

[Toilet Technician]

@Voodoo pimp
So, what your saying is my biggest problem is that this team is way to hyper-offensive with no effective bulk what so ever. Seems to make sense, because when I can't just plow through a team I get completely squashed. Well, looks like its back to the drawing board for me, but with this input I feel a lot more sure of how this next team will be structured. Thanks for the rate.

 

[Trakyan]

Perhaps try a slowbro for TR, reliable recover+regen can help with maintaining TR but i dunno

 

[Ignitrua]

Kudos for originality, but the simple truth of the matter is it usually doesn't pay. For the last several months, the only real changes to the metagame have been slight tweaks in movesets, and even that has been pretty rare. So maybe you should try a few of the dreaded normal mons.

Anyway, regarding your team structure, you could definitely use a bit more bulk. Try it in terms of TR lead (TR user + Fake Out/Follow Me), two frail powerhouses (one physical one special) and two bulky mons (one physical one special). Any secondary TR users should probably be included in the bulky mon section of the team. When regarding bulk, you should try this structure, it's basic, but it might help.

 

[Toilet Technician]

@Trakyan

Its, really funny, because Slowbro was the first mon I started looking at last night, because on an earlier doubles team build, which was horrendous, (it would become my very successful triple team, after some tweaking.) I had tried to use it as an all out healer, which was awful. But Regenerator adds some serious lasting power, but I'm feeling some slight four move-slot syndrome, because I can't decide if I should stick to the VGC 12 set or maybe replace a move with recovery or heal beam.

@Ignitrua
I'll keep trying out some lesser used mons, but I won't shy away from some OU's. Also my structure isn't really defined yet, but thats what I'll be trying to stick to, unless something better shows up.

 

[Ignitrua]

Actually just noticed Signal Beam on Octillery - lol?
You could probably replace it with Protect which is more helpful, or maybe Scald as a reliable STAB.
You could also try Heatran over Camerupt, it's stronger and it will give you a slightly stronger chance vs. Reuniclus.