Spiritomb is a 3HKO and can't do shit back. Blastoise beats EVERY spin blocker, hands down.
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Pokémon the starters role in the metagame
- Thread starter Youngchris17
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Ok, fair enough. But Spiritomb is kind of dead weight otherwise, and a free switch in to a lot of stuff.
He's managed to find his way on a couple uu teams, spiritomb is not defenseless in a situation that pits the two against each other, nor is m blastoise
Offensively though, I would think M blastoise has the upper hand here
Offensively though, I would think M blastoise has the upper hand here
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Blastoise may be OU depending on how well he can take on Aegislash and Gengar
Shadow tag gengar better watch out, if he goes toe to toe with mega blastoise :/
Just checked his capable moves, he doesn't learn dark pulse
Just checked his capable moves, he doesn't learn dark pulse
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If you are referring to Blastoise, yes, he does.
And he can kill Aegislash easily enough, Aegi can't do anything to Blastoise and Dark Pulse is IIRC a 2hko.
Mega Blastoise, as much as I hate it, is probably the best Spinner bar Excadrill out there.
Mega Charizard X is essentially a better Salamence w/o life orb recoil. I don't know if you ever used or saw an SP Charizard last gen, but if you could switch one in cleanly, it hit ridiculously hard in the sun. Now Zard Y does that without taking SP damage, and can summer weather over Politoed. And Normal Specs SP Zard still has a small niche as having the most powerful unboosted attack in the game, now further buffed with a Sticky Web immunity to improve its sweeping capabilities. Even if Zard isn't used enough to make OU, base 159 Sp. Atk boosted by auto sun is utterly broken in UU, so it will be at least BL.
I don't think many people doubt Venusaur's chances. It just has so many options.
Go into the actual game, boot up TM97.
I meant blastoise, he doesn't learn it at least according to smogon
While I don't see Delphox making OU with all the overpowered mons in there, I still think it's not getting the credit it deserves. It has pretty good Sp. Attack and is fast enough to outspeed loads of mons. A set that would be viable (more so in lower tiers admittedly) IMO:
Timid 128 HP/ 128 Sp. A/ 252 Speed (still working on the exact EVs)
- Will-o-wisp
- Calm-mind
- Psyshock
- Flamethrower/ Any good fire move
So you switch in on a slow, physical attacker, burn with will-o-wisp, boost with calm mind and start firing off attacks. Simple enough.
Timid 128 HP/ 128 Sp. A/ 252 Speed (still working on the exact EVs)
- Will-o-wisp
- Calm-mind
- Psyshock
- Flamethrower/ Any good fire move
So you switch in on a slow, physical attacker, burn with will-o-wisp, boost with calm mind and start firing off attacks. Simple enough.
Blastoise was given Dark Pulse in Gen VI.
Also, Mega Blastoise has a lot that makes it difficult to choose as the spinner of choice. In most cases Starmie has an edge on a lot of spin blockers -- especially Jellicent if it opted for Thunderbolt. Excadrill is also powerful with its good typing, access to Stealth Rock, and having the capability of either a massive Speed boost or modest power boost.
Mega Blastoise at least packs a punch, but it still misses an option of recovery. Keeping your spinner alive is just as crucial as destroying the opponent's spinblocker. The offensive punch will at least help it tremendously, but it will also suffer greatly from 4 MSS. Scald / Dark Pulse / Rapid Spin / Aura Sphere is decent, but Dragon Pulse, Ice Beam, and even Toxic. It also still has 71 base Speed, so it will always lose in Speed to Gengar.
Mega Charizard X isn't quite a better Salamence. There are a lot of things Salamence has. For one, Salamence has Moxie. For another, Salamence does not bite 50% with Stealth Rock. There's also access to Draco Meteor - which many used in Generation V.
Also, Mega Blastoise has a lot that makes it difficult to choose as the spinner of choice. In most cases Starmie has an edge on a lot of spin blockers -- especially Jellicent if it opted for Thunderbolt. Excadrill is also powerful with its good typing, access to Stealth Rock, and having the capability of either a massive Speed boost or modest power boost.
Mega Blastoise at least packs a punch, but it still misses an option of recovery. Keeping your spinner alive is just as crucial as destroying the opponent's spinblocker. The offensive punch will at least help it tremendously, but it will also suffer greatly from 4 MSS. Scald / Dark Pulse / Rapid Spin / Aura Sphere is decent, but Dragon Pulse, Ice Beam, and even Toxic. It also still has 71 base Speed, so it will always lose in Speed to Gengar.
Mega Charizard X isn't quite a better Salamence. There are a lot of things Salamence has. For one, Salamence has Moxie. For another, Salamence does not bite 50% with Stealth Rock. There's also access to Draco Meteor - which many used in Generation V.
Delphox is a pokemon who has really well distributed stats, and happens to counter and check quite a few notable things from the Gen 5 meta to the point where it'd probably OU back then, buuut then again this isn't exactly the Gen 5 Metagame now is it? Best case scenario, it happens to be right in a spot where it can deal with a large amount of OU and it becomes fairly relevant. Worse case? King of UU, possible pushed into BL for destroying the kingdom of the almost but not quite viable.
Youngchris17 needs to stop posting in this thread. All your posts lack substance and are just worsening the quality of discussion. As you said on your profile, you're 18 so you won't take this criticism to heart, eh? ;)
I honestly don't see the hype surrounding Greninja. Sure, it has decent stats, but Water/Dark is a horrible typing from a defensive perspective, so a support role such as a spikes layer won't be its best role. It can hit hard, and has U-Turn, so that's great, but its coverage isn't great. It has access to the expected Water STAB and Dark STAB, Extraesensory, Ice Beam and U-Turn as coverage, but nothing to really let it stop being walled by Pokemon (such as special walls such as Sylveon). Protean is a good ability which will be interesting to use (always STAB) in the right hands, but I honestly think it's over-hyped and not worth OU. Keldeo already suits Greninja's role much better.
I honestly don't see the hype surrounding Greninja. Sure, it has decent stats, but Water/Dark is a horrible typing from a defensive perspective, so a support role such as a spikes layer won't be its best role. It can hit hard, and has U-Turn, so that's great, but its coverage isn't great. It has access to the expected Water STAB and Dark STAB, Extraesensory, Ice Beam and U-Turn as coverage, but nothing to really let it stop being walled by Pokemon (such as special walls such as Sylveon). Protean is a good ability which will be interesting to use (always STAB) in the right hands, but I honestly think it's over-hyped and not worth OU. Keldeo already suits Greninja's role much better.
You'd have better luck if you tried being more constructive with your criticism. Help explain how he can do better, and where specifically his flaws lie.
But he's not Water/Dark defensively. He's whatever attack he uses. Protean works for defense as well. And this, coupled with his high speed, makes him very, VERY dangerous in the hands of a player with good predictive abilities.
And it still leaves him as probably the best of the starters.
I just can't see how pokemon with the MegaKanto starter's stats won't be OU. Lack of items or not, they're at least all going to be BL. Their stat totals are higher than Garchomp's by a considerable margin. Venusaur and Blastoise have solid typings, and so does Charizard after he megaevolves. (Into his X form anyway.) Their move pools have always been good, and with their improved stats they can only make even better use of them.
Ok, now let's sum up how good the 6th Gen Final Evo Starters are:
1. Chesnaught
EDIT: I also agree with Aldrius; I mean, the Mega Kanto Starters will possibly be OU, but we don't know half the story yet, so...yeah.
Also, Mega's don't have access to Life Orb, nor Leftovers, so that's a negative, even with the improved movepools and such.
1. Chesnaught
- Has Spiky Shield, a Move that is essentially Protect + Rocky Helmet combined.
- Bulletproof, while situational, it can prove some usage against Gengar, Muk, and several other Poison Types.
- Grass/Fighting isn't bad at all, and it suit's the Walling, Physical nature of Chesnaught.
- 90/108/128/80/70/70
- Best: OU (Possibly), Likely: UU.
- Water Shuriken is decent, but it learns Extrasensory, Hydro Pump, U Turn by Tm, and Night Slash later on. Also, it can even learn Spikes, and Mat Block.
- Protean = More manageable Color Change; with enough good prediction, and a diverse movepool, Greninja could mind trick the hell out of the UU, OU, or even Ubers Tier.
- Water/Dark, and a Mixed Support Set is very interesting for a Starter, even if it's not that good.
- 72/95/67/103/71/122
- Best: Ubers (Unlikely, but still possible), Likely: OU/UU.
- No one seems to be mentioning Mystical Fire, so I will just leave it out there, if anyone wants to actually use it; also Calm Mind and Switcheroo aren't half bad.
- Magician is kinda meh, but if you want to troll the opposing Pokemon by making it have no item at all, at the cost of your own, then it's sorta fine.
- Fire/Psychic, obvious fast Sp Attacker.
- 75-80/75-79/70-80/110
- Best: OU, Likely: UU.
EDIT: I also agree with Aldrius; I mean, the Mega Kanto Starters will possibly be OU, but we don't know half the story yet, so...yeah.
Also, Mega's don't have access to Life Orb, nor Leftovers, so that's a negative, even with the improved movepools and such.
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Do you really think Charizard isn't OU now?
Drought backed by approximately base 159 SAtk which destroys most pokes UU, NU, RU metagame. You really feel like they would let that monster destroy the lower tiers??? But but what about stealth rock and then comes volcarona.... Just accept it.
Also just run him on a team similar to a team you would run Volcarona.
Drought backed by approximately base 159 SAtk which destroys most pokes UU, NU, RU metagame. You really feel like they would let that monster destroy the lower tiers??? But but what about stealth rock and then comes volcarona.... Just accept it.
Also just run him on a team similar to a team you would run Volcarona.
Honestly, I think people who think Charizard will be UU are kidding themselves. But it still may not be OU is people use their Mega Slot for other options. But in that case, it would be BL, not UU, because it's really just way too dangerous down there.
Spiritomb is always causing trouble for everyone. With the addition of fairy types, maybe Blastoise could learn one of those, although it seems VERY unlikley. I have my fingers crossed.
nice profile picture, good sir
If he got Drain punch, Mach punch, or close combat, then I could perhaps see OU. He'll be USABLE, but I think, ultimately, he'll be UU.
Delphox is the best fire starter bar BeastKen, no doubt, charizard is stupidly overhyped, for fucks sake it really only holds the fire type over dragons, it's wallbreaking is surpassed by mega and regular chomp and kyuB, which can actually 2ko mega venu with no boosts by just straight up going CB (in reg chomps case, not mega chomps case) outrage, while flare blitz will only 3ko phys def mega venu thans to thick fat coming off charizard's thought to be ridiculous 130 base attack, thsi is just 1 example, there are many more, like oh I don't know KS Aegislash? KS aegi will never drop garchomps offenses due to earthquake being a non contact move unless your stupid enough to overpredict and go for outrage instead of EQ, while charizard can get it's attack dropped by 2 entire stages, and unlike blaze and talonflame, which get SD, it will take 2 turns to make that drop up with dragon dance, and even then it's only to reach back up to a 130 base attack, even max attack bulk up gogoat with EQ handles fucking aegi better, and this is a fire type we're talking about here. come the fuck on.
It's BL at most in terms of viability , but knowing all the STUPID ass charizard fanboys in the OU usage stats, combined with these guy's actual usage , it probably will be OU.
Anyway, back to delphox,choice delphox gets both GK and switcheroo letting it fuck with chansey, ttar and blissey
252 SpA Delphox Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Chansey: 258-304 (40.18 - 47.35%) -- 47.66% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (after switcheroo) (assuming in gen 6 people will pick up the same spread they use for blissey, if not, it's I guess a 3HKO after SR)
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 354-417 (54.29 - 63.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 213-252 (47.97 - 56.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 238-282 (61.65 - 73.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges : 183-216 (50.83 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 213-252 (54.06 - 63.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 253-298 (48.28 - 56.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 264-312 (65.34 - 77.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Jellicent: 282-334 (69.97 - 82.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Physical wall/Utilltiy check Jellicent)
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 228-268 (56.43 - 66.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Special Wall Jellicent)
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 116+ SpD Slowking: 180-214 (45.8 - 54.45%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This is delphox's SECOND strongest set, and oh look what are it's counters between OU and UU?: latias, phys def.chansey end fucking list
this thing has less checks than keldeo itself, KELDEO, one of the most predominant forces of late BW2 (not as powerful as people say it is, but still stinking powerful)
Want to meet delphox's strongest set? meet Offensive calm mind
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 308-363 (43.75 - 51.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 460-542 (70.55 - 83.12%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 224-265 (55.44 - 65.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 309-367 (80.05 - 95.07%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Fire Blast vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 138-164 (43.26 - 51.41%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 343-406 (84.9 - 100.49%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 116+ SpD Slowking: 234-278 (59.54 - 70.73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Psyshock vs. 144 HP / 188 Def Snorlax: 257-304 (51.71 - 61.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Jellicent: 367-434 (91.06 - 107.69%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 296-348 (73.26 - 86.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
GG stall, GG
And don't tell me "it can be revenged" so can garchomp, so can keldeo, so can terrakion, who gives a shit, the scarf set and the all out attacker surprisingly trouble offense as it handles a lot of the things commonly seen on offense
While I definitely agree Delphox has some serious potential being a fast fire type with Calm Mind and not needing a scarf(they are surprisingly rare. Prior to this gen, the only Fire types with base speed over 100 were Rapidash, Simisear (both of which are terrible), Infernape, and Arceus Fire), I think you are selling Charizard short. Charizard DOES get Swords Dance, it just prefers the speed increase from Dragon Dance. But if you run Sticky Web (remember Charizard switches in immune to it), you could easily run SD. Charizard X is also the best (except Kyurem-B, who I refuse to acknowledge as OU eligible) at mixed attacking, as Overheat from a base 130 Sp. Atk would decimate Aegislash.
Delphox is the best fire starter bar BeastKen, no doubt, charizard is stupidly overhyped, for fucks sake it really only holds the fire type over dragons, it's wallbreaking is surpassed by mega and regular chomp and kyuB, which can actually 2ko mega venu with no boosts by just straight up going CB (in reg chomps case, not mega chomps case) outrage, while flare blitz will only 3ko phys def mega venu thans to thick fat coming off charizard's thought to be ridiculous 130 base attack, thsi is just 1 example, there are many more, like oh I don't know KS Aegislash? KS aegi will never drop garchomps offenses due to earthquake being a non contact move unless your stupid enough to overpredict and go for outrage instead of EQ, while charizard can get it's attack dropped by 2 entire stages, and unlike blaze and talonflame, which get SD, it will take 2 turns to make that drop up with dragon dance, and even then it's only to reach back up to a 130 base attack, even max attack bulk up gogoat with EQ handles fucking aegi better, and this is a fire type we're talking about here. come the fuck on.
It's BL at most in terms of viability , but knowing all the STUPID ass charizard fanboys in the OU usage stats, combined with these guy's actual usage , it probably will be OU.
Anyway, back to delphox,choice delphox gets both GK and switcheroo letting it fuck with chansey, ttar and blissey
252 SpA Delphox Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Chansey: 258-304 (40.18 - 47.35%) -- 47.66% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (after switcheroo) (assuming in gen 6 people will pick up the same spread they use for blissey, if not, it's I guess a 3HKO after SR)
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 354-417 (54.29 - 63.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 213-252 (47.97 - 56.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 238-282 (61.65 - 73.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges : 183-216 (50.83 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 213-252 (54.06 - 63.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 253-298 (48.28 - 56.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 264-312 (65.34 - 77.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Jellicent: 282-334 (69.97 - 82.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Physical wall/Utilltiy check Jellicent)
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 228-268 (56.43 - 66.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Special Wall Jellicent)
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 116+ SpD Slowking: 180-214 (45.8 - 54.45%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This is delphox's SECOND strongest set, and oh look what are it's counters between OU and UU?: latias, phys def.chansey end fucking list
this thing has less checks than keldeo itself, KELDEO, one of the most predominant forces of late BW2 (not as powerful as people say it is, but still stinking powerful)
Want to meet delphox's strongest set? meet Offensive calm mind
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 308-363 (43.75 - 51.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 460-542 (70.55 - 83.12%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 224-265 (55.44 - 65.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 309-367 (80.05 - 95.07%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Fire Blast vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 138-164 (43.26 - 51.41%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 343-406 (84.9 - 100.49%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 116+ SpD Slowking: 234-278 (59.54 - 70.73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Psyshock vs. 144 HP / 188 Def Snorlax: 257-304 (51.71 - 61.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Jellicent: 367-434 (91.06 - 107.69%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 296-348 (73.26 - 86.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
GG stall, GG
And don't tell me "it can be revenged" so can garchomp, so can keldeo, so can terrakion, who gives a shit, the scarf set and the all out attacker surprisingly trouble offense as it handles a lot of the things commonly seen on offense
Charizard Y is all kinds of scary with a Sun boosted base 159 Sp. Atk, a decent Sp. Def to tank hits, and a SolarBeam that doesn't require charge.
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