Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[DarkBlazeR]

I'm not saying Feraligatr shouldn't be B-rank(let it stay there, it's not a bad mon as such). I'm simply using Gatr as evidence that Weavile should be B+ because it's a better sweeper. Feraligatr being B makes sense: in comparison, it's Weavile being B- that makes absolutely no sense.

With two water-types already, it's not viable to have another water-type, which is why Feraligatr should be C-Rank: rain teams have no space to run it as of now

Don't contradict yourself.

Weavile has a niche as Pursuit trapper and an Ice Shard user, and is pretty much limited to that role, although it executes it solidly. However, on no planet in this universe is Weavile a better SD sweeper than Feraligatr. I challenge you to name something that it can set up on - basically everything relevant in OU can OHKO it or at least do enough damage to severely cripple it. Even once you have set up, Weavile isn't too great of a sweeper because it is easily checked by a large proportion of the tier, including most Scarf users and anything that it can't OHKO at +2. The calculations you've provided prove absolutely nothing since you've looked at two very specific examples, both of which are completely irrelevant to the discussion. If your main argument is that Weavile should be ranked higher because it is a better SD sweeper, I think you should consider trying out SD Weavile on the ladder for yourself and see how much success you can have with it, compare it with superior SD sweepers and see the difference.

 

[Asek]

My point isn't that Feraligatr is bad. Relative to Feraligatr, both Weavile and Infernape are far more dangerous in today's metagame. So it makes no sense to have Feraligatr above both.
Let's face it, while 105 Attack isn't bad, 78 speed is. Compare to Weavile(who has an arguably better attacking type) who has 120 base attack and 125 speed. Now tell me why Feraligatr is B-Rank but Weavile is B-. It makes no sense, which is precisely why Weavile should be moved up to B+.

Not sure if you seriously just said that feraligatr is worse than infernape and weavile but I'll respond anyway. Stats mean nothing when we are comparing something, take into consideration typing, abilities, movepool and its role in the meta before you make comparisons. Weavile is not B+ material it has way too many negative aspects to make it that high (easy to wear down, prediction reliant, weak moves, insta dead if hit etc.)

 

[vyomov]

Don't contradict yourself.

Didn't, just changed my mind on B-Rank after using it on my rain team a little, it's quite good!

Weavile is not B+ material it has way too many negative aspects to make it that high

For all those negative aspects you mentioned, it has an equal mumber of positive aspects:
1) Great typing in terms of attacking potential
2) Great speed
3) Fast Priority(Ice Shard)
4) Pursuit
5) 120 base attack
Also, nobody mentions the 1850 usage stats I quoted:

Feraligatr: 0.38726% : 115'th in usage
Weavile: 2.59516%: 54'th in usage

If Feraligatr was honestly that much more viable as everyone seems to believe, why would the 1850 stats show such a gap? The fact remains that, Feraligatr is viable, but Weavile is more viable, hence Weavile should be B+ and Feraligatr at B.
The usage stats are decent in indicating a mon's viability:
57- Amoonguss 2.45672%
58 - Stoutland 2.38117%
59 - Haxorus 2.32941%
60 - Xatu 2.32328%
All of which are B. So it makes sense to give Weavile at least B because it's used around the same or more than all the mons above.
In advance, don't say that usage doesn't indicate viability. Normal usage might not, but 1850 stats are quite indicative of the viability of a mon.

 

[DarkBlazeR]

Feraligatr: 0.38726% : 115'th in usage
Weavile: 2.59516%: 54'th in usage

There's a simple explanation as to why Weavile is used more often than Feraligatr. The latter cannot be simply thrown onto a team - the team must be built around it, and it requires rain to function at its best. On the other hand, Weavile can be fit onto a variety of different teams because it does not function as the centrepiece - rather, it simply provides utility for the team to help it achieve its goals. This isn't to say Weavile is better or worse than Feraligatr, it's just used more often. I doubt Feraligatr will ever break the top 60 unless we start seeing a sudden, massive increase in the number of Feraligatr Rain teams on the ladder. This doesn't mean it isn't a viable threat however - it just means that it only sees usage on certain team archetypes, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Cresselia is only ever seen on bulky sun teams, but that doesn't mean it isn't one of the best mixed walls in the tier, for example.

 

[Sturdynips]

How can Weavile and Feraligatr even be compared? They have such different roles in the current metagame. You can't compare a late-game rain sweeper with a revenge killer/trapper (Weavile is NOT and never should be a set-up sweeper in OU)
No one is denying that Weavile performs its role excellently, but its flaws are too great to be a consistent threat. It took a lot of debate just to get Weavile into B-, which is where it should stay.

 

[ciaranroy]

Also, you said that Weavile doesn't require weather to sweep and Feraligatr does, which makes Weavile better. Don't you remember Tornadus-T? That was banned simply because it was amazing in rain. Is Weavile better than Tornadus-T? Don't be ridiculous. Is Weavile better than Excadrill, because that required sand to sweep? Honestly, Weavile just isn't that good. On paper, maybe, Weavile looks better than Feraligatr, but in practice Feraligatr is FAR better than Weavile. Your argument that Weavile's priority is faster than other priority users is invalid too, as what exactly is it doing to Scizor, Feraligatr, Lucario or Conkeldurr with Ice Shard anyway? SD Weavile is a joke anyway. Anything that frail has no opportunities to set up. At least Breloom has Spore, Lucario and Scizor have good defensive typings, and other SD sweepers have far greater bulk. What exactly is Weavile setting up on? Every mon that Weavile could force out can just stay in, predicting the SD, and decimate Weavile. If you can name one Pokemon that Weavile can set up on, maybe I'll reconsider my stance on Weavile.

 

[vyomov]

On paper, maybe, Weavile looks better than Feraligatr, but in practice Feraligatr is FAR better than Weavile.

If in practice Feraligatr is far better, why is Weavile being used almost 7 times more than Feraligatr in the 1850 stats?

Also, note these are the OU "Viability" Rankings, not the OU "With rain support" Rankings. Rain support can't always be guaranteed. The sheer fact that Feraligatr is bad outside rain means that Weavile is better. Agreed, inside rain, Feraligatr might be more dangerous. Outside rain, especially in Sun, Feraligatr is useless, while Weavile can have a go at revenge killing the sun chlorophyll abusers with Ice Shard.
Feraligatr's niche is a 105 based aqua jet. Isn't it then outclassed in this role by Sharpedo, who has better speed and better attack?

If you can name one Pokemon that Weavile can set up on, maybe I'll reconsider my stance on Weavile.

I only took +2 for those calculations to show the difference in damage. Weavile can sweep without SD because I agree with you, it doesn't get the time to set up in this meta.

Honestly, Feraligatr is great in rain and deserves B. But if Feraligatr, for that SMALL niche of Aqua Jet Torrent in Rain gets B-Rank, it does not conform to logic not to give Weavile B+, especially given the proliferation of dragons in the tier(especially considering 3 are 4x weak to ice and the Eon duo is pursuit trapped by Weavile).

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

I stand by Weavile making one of the best late game cleaners with nothing but 4 attacks (no pursuit) in this meta..

Considering with a psyshock/thunderbolt/hiddenpowerfire/trick set on a gothitelle to trap almost every weavile hard counter and the fact that most teams run only 1 weavile hard counter with a lot of weavile weak pokemon, its not hard to play around teams that save their weavile counters to the end. The amount of times I ploughed the last 3 or 4 pokemon with Weavile after removing the counter(s) is incredible :)

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Seriously vyomov? I'm starting to believe that you're arguing just for the sake of argument.

Firstly, usage statistics are certainly NOT how you determine viability. Saying that Weavile deserves a higher spot because it is used 7 times more than Feraligatr is like saying Ninjask is more viable than Darmanitan because it's used more. Feraligatr does not see use on all teams but when it does, it shines. That determines viability, not popularity.

Secondly, how is Feraligatr's niche small? Torrent, rain-boosted and move-boosted attacks are actually a big deal. Feraligatr has three ways to get a boost in power, as well as boosted priority. I don't think that's a small niche. And here's the thing: Feraligatr can hit many of OU's threats extremely hard, and water resists get smacked by its coverage moves. Weavile is not superior in power because it has to rely on Night Slash to hope for some damage. In addition, Feraligatr has a combination of bulk and power. While its speed is certainly a letdown, it can be boosted through Dragon Dance as well. In fact, Feraligatr can afford to switch into a resisted hit and set up. What can Weavile switch into and setup on?

I do not deny that Weavile can make an excellent offensive utility mon and cleaner. However, i have already made many arguments in the previous pages and do not wish to restate them. Weavile for B- rank

 

[Unoriginal Name]

Also, note these are the OU "Viability" Rankings, not the OU "With rain support" Rankings. Rain support can't always be guaranteed. The sheer fact that Feraligatr is bad outside rain means that Weavile is better. Agreed, inside rain, Feraligatr might be more dangerous. Outside rain, especially in Sun, Feraligatr is useless, while Weavile can have a go at revenge killing the sun chlorophyll abusers with Ice Shard.

Um...

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Feraligatr's offensive niche is being a powerful physical Rain sweeper. Simple as that.

Feraligatr's niche is a 105 based aqua jet. Isn't it then outclassed in this role by Sharpedo, who has better speed and better attack?

Woah, Sharpedo runs priority often? Feraligatr can beat slower priority users, and isn't nearly as frail.

I only took +2 for those calculations to show the difference in damage.

My apologies if I'm missing something, but how does that help show the "difference in damage" if, realistically, Weavile will almost never get to +2, as you yourself said? I can calc for a +3 Blissey hitting a -4 Shuckle with a Mimic'd Ice Shard; realistically, it'll never happen.

Honestly, Feraligatr is great in rain and deserves B. But if Feraligatr, for that SMALL niche of Aqua Jet Torrent in Rain gets B-Rank, it does not conform to logic not to give Weavile B+, especially given the proliferation of dragons in the tier(especially considering 3 are 4x weak to ice and the Eon duo is pursuit trapped by Weavile)

Uh, Feraligatr kills significant things, too. Volcarona? Gliscor? Chansey/Blissey? Landorus? Sure, the weather needs to be up, but it's fairly easy for Rain to win the weather war nowadays; if you are having serious problems, get a Gothitelle with HP Ground or something. Feraligatr needs support, yes, but Weavile doesn't? Spin to preserve a Sash, someone to take Mach Punches...

Also, highlight Weavile's flaws, not Feraligatr's downfalls. You can't say "Chansey deserves S rank cause Luvdisc sux". Oh yeah, and on the topic of Luvdisc, it gets priority too. Priority isn't instant-win for whoever uses it; Rain- and Torrent-boosted priority is powerful, but not a 1-move team. Weavile's attacks are even weaker (as your calcs should've shown, had you factored in Rain...).

 

[Reymedy]

At this point, if the OP wanted to change Weavile's place, he would have done it already. So ye, it hurts to see Sableye above Weavile's rank, but let's drop the Weavile's issue at once.

I also think the B- part is just awful. Why would Darmanitan be above Conkeldurr's rank ? And if we want to compare weather abusers, why would Darmanitan be above Azumarill ? The later taking advantage from the strongest weather, having more power, a niche priority with good coverage (hello Landorus/Terrakion) and a really decent bulk instead of having speed.
I'm just taking an example here, but there is a lot of work to do on C and B already.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Nominating Conkeldurr for B- rank at least (or even mid B)

I believe Conkeldurr deserves Low B for a few different reasons.

Conkeldurr is powerful and able to hit lots of things hard. It can come in on things like Mamoswine, Tyranitar and Forretress and force them out by threatening to set up on them or outright KO them, and is bulky enough to live a few physical hits and Drain Punch for recovery. Unlike other physical attackers, Conkeldurr can come in on the Will-o-Wisps and Scalds commonly thrown around in OU to nab a free Guts boost and is one of the few sweepers who don't mind status. Bulk Up is certainly a difficult move to set up, but all Conkeldurr needs is one boost to be able to bulldoze through whatever switches in thanks to its great two move coverage; it has the luxury to choose between Ice Punch to demolish dragons and Payback to destroy Jellicent and Lati@s. Certain physical threats cannot hope to hurt it after a boost because of its great physical bulk and potential to heal back its lost HP with Drain Punch. Faster, frailer threats are effectively dealt with with Mach Punch, which nabs things like Terrakion. If setting up is not your cup of tea, Conkeldurr can run a Status Orb set very effectively, which can switch in and immediately start hitting things hard. It can also run a Sheer Force or Iron Fist set sporting nice physical BoltBeam.

While Conkeldurr is easily stopped by faster, special threats such as Keldeo, I believe Conkeldurr's positive traits make him worthy of at least B-

 

[vyomov]

On this matter, I completely agree with Remedy and Scorpdestroyer, Conkeldurr should be at least B- Rank

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

What about jirachi in S-Rank? It was talked about earlier but got lost in the other discussions. It has incredible bulk and typing, ability to counter top threats like latios, alakazam, unpredictability with dozens of viable sets and the ability to support the team with wish.

 

[vyomov]

What about jirachi in S-Rank? It was talked about earlier but got lost in the other discussions. It has incredible bulk and typing, ability to counter top threats like latios, alakazam, unpredictability with dozens of viable sets and the ability to support the team with wish.

Once again, a proposal I agree with to the fullest.
Jirachi has many things going for it:
a) A great typing: With only two weaknesses and a key resistance to Dragon-types, Jirachi can form a good defensive core
b) Balanced stats and diverse movepool: This allows Jirachi to run multiple sets: physically offensive with Iron Head and Body Slam, specially offensive with CM, Psychic and the like. The unpredictability makes Jirachi difficult to wall.
c) Serene Grace: The same ability which pushed Shaymin-S unanimously into Ubers(as one factor, no doubt there are other factors as well), Serene Grace allows Jirachi to paraflinch opponents and can thus hax out an opponent

Also remember that Jirachi's Psychic STAB allows it to beat two of the S-rank mons, Keldeo and Terrakion.

Another mon I'd like to see in S-Rank is Scizor. Scizor has many things going for it(Technician Pursuit, great attack stat, Technician STAB Bullet Punch and Technician Bug Bite.). It makes a great pursuit trapper, a great scout(with STAB U-Turn) and with a good defensive typing. Sporting only one weakness(to fire, 4x), Scizor can easily rule in the current metagame.

Cresselia seems more suited for B-Rank . Cresselia is easily the best mixed wall in the whole tier, sporting 120/120/130 defenses that most mons would die for. The b-rank description fits Cresselia, as it has a defensive niche. Another reason Cresselia is so good is because of Lunar Dance. Cresselia can Toxic Stall out most mons and, as Cresselia reaches towards the ends of it's reserves, it can use Lunar Dance. This means you can essentially use a sweeper like Salamence, sweep until your health is low, then move into Cresselia and Lunar Dance: it's a nightmare for the team who, having sacrificed 2 mons to revenge kill the sweeper, has to do that again.
Cresselia also offers great Dual Screens support and, with it's incredible bulk can go on the offensive, hitting hard after two CM boosts.

 

[Vemane]

Don't get me wrong, I adore cresselia, but it finds issue in its meager offenses and its semi-reliance on sun. It is essentially a sitting duck, an impenetrable sitting duck, but one all the same, unless it's a calm mind set, and with a calm mind set it really can't do much until it is at least at +3/+3, plus there's coverage issues, crits, and poison.

because of this, I believe cress belongs in the hypothetical c+ or b- tier.

 

[ElectivireRocks]

Once again I find myself supporting Jirachi for S rank.

Jirachi is a great defensive pivot, special wall, boosting sweeper, supporter and general annoyance and many of its sets can combine two or more of these qualities.

A common misconception is that Jirachi is "outclassed" in many of the roles it can play as. That's entirely false.
The very fact Jirachi has replaced Blissey as the all-purpose special wall of choice should speak for itself. That alone should tell you how good Jirachi is.

 

[Usatoday]

Don't get me wrong, I adore cresselia, but it finds issue in its meager offenses and its semi-reliance on sun. It is essentially a sitting duck, an impenetrable sitting duck, but one all the same, unless it's a calm mind set, and with a calm mind set it really can't do much until it is at least at +3/+3, plus there's coverage issues, crits, and poison.

because of this, I believe cress belongs in the hypothetical c+ or b- tier.

That's true however there is one set that I haven't seen anyone bring up that is the fact that it is perhaps the bulkiest dual screener available in the overused tier. The role it plays as a dual screener is one that I find little can fill with the closest I find being latias as it is a faster version of cresselia with less bulk as it is forced out by U Turn from choice banded scizor seen in the calculations below. Hence it is easier to see that in a way latias only will outclass cresselia in the role of a dual screener because of speed. However the bulk of cress is something I have found favorable as it has room to run crippling moves such as thunder wave or toxic in the final slot where as latias must choose to run recover, wish, or an attacking move. However that being said cresselia as a dual screener is quite underrated because unlike latias it has staying power as opposed to latias or azelf who tend to set up screens and die where as cresselia will generally set up a screen and switch to the sweeper to set up. I honestly believe that cresselia is a dead weight to most sun teams as it can do little but take hits. It really doesn't have the ability to fire back powerful attacks so therefore I believe C+ Rank is perfect for cresselia.


252Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) U-turn vs 252HP/0Def Levitate Latias (Neutral): 112% - 133% (410 - 486 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
252Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) U-turn vs 252HP/0Def Levitate Latias (Neutral) behind a Reflect: 56% - 67% (206 - 246 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) U-turn vs 252HP/148Def Levitate Cresselia (+Def) behind a Reflect: 29% - 35% (132 - 156 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) U-turn vs 252HP/148Def Levitate Cresselia (+Def): 58% - 69% (260 - 308 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

 

[CTC]

Yea idek why this thread exists, cuz the standards for comparison are too vague and abstract. Anywhere below S and A, the ranks are niche dominated which means a mon could either counter a single mon of a higher rank or an archetype of teams. U cant arbitrarily determine which niche is more "viable" in ou. Arguments like these are pretty fruitless. Fundamentally, the list can't really rank mons by criteria that are equitable for all niche mons(ie is countering sun better than countering rain, or countering terak vs lando). The best solution is to just let it stay as is cuz the list is pretty arbitrary. just imagine ur fave mon is rank b+ cuz unless it's a horse genie or dragon, its prolly not makin it to A and above.

UR ALL WELCOME

 

[ciaranroy]

Yea idek why this thread exists, cuz the standards for comparison are too vague and abstract. Anywhere below S and A, the ranks are niche dominated which means a mon could either counter a single mon of a higher rank or an archetype of teams. U cant arbitrarily determine which niche is more "viable" in ou. Arguments like these are pretty fruitless. Fundamentally, the list can't really rank mons by criteria that are equitable for all niche mons(ie is countering sun better than countering rain, or countering terak vs lando). The best solution is to just let it stay as is cuz the list is pretty arbitrary. just imagine ur fave mon is rank b+ cuz unless it's a horse genie or dragon, its prolly not makin it to A and above.

The point of this thread is to help newer players so they know what's actually good. It's to stop people using Charizard, basically. It's also to raise awareness of underrated pokemon. What lesser player would actually think if using Feraligatr? Also, I love stats and rankings and the like. So it satisfies me.

 

[Meru]

I still think Jirachi should be S-rank. It's 3rd in the 1850 stats, and has so much going for it that many other users have mentioned.

Nobody is nominating Jirachi for Ubers, but that doesn't mean it isn't worthy of S-rank since it still offers a phenomenal amount of support for every team it's put on.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

The problem is that many Charizard fanboys don't even think of checking out Charizard's analysis page, let alone this thread.
| Abilities |
| Solar Power 56.718% |
| Blaze 43.282% |

As for Jirachi, it should stay in A+ rank, sure, it's annoying with the paraflinch set, but it's stopped by any bulky ground-type, and even with a specially defensive spread it can't take too many Hydro Pumps in the rain.

There's a reason Feraligatr's RU and Weavile is UU: it's because Weavile is simply more viable in the current meta.

No. Feraligatr is RU because it's not very good in UU, it doesn't matter how viable he is in OU. Also, why do you even compare Weavile to feraligatr? The latter is a sweeper, the former is an utility Pokemon. But I agree with you that Weavile should be B+ rank.

 

[OG Asian]

Jirachi

Jirachi definitely should not be S Rank. It is a great Pokemon and all, but isn't metagame defining like some of the other S Rank Pokemon. Its weakness to ground and relatively low defensive stats make it solidly A tier.

 

[Gary]

Jirachi definitely should not be S Rank. It is a great Pokemon and all, but isn't metagame defining like some of the other S Rank Pokemon. Its weakness to ground and relatively low defensive stats make it solidly A tier.

Jirachi having relatively low defenses is an overstatement by far. With a solid 404 HP when fully invested and amazing all around balanced defenses, it can pretty avoid the 2HKO on anything that's not super-effective against it, only taking a ton from Choice Specs Hydro Pump when used by Toed or Keldeo. I wouldn't really use that as a reason from keeping it S-Rank. It's defenses and resistances make it one of the best special walls in OU.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Jirachi having relatively low defenses is an overstatement by far. With a solid 404 HP when fully invested and amazing all around balanced defenses, it can pretty avoid the 2HKO on anything that's not super-effective against it, only taking a ton from Choice Specs Hydro Pump when used by Toed or Keldeo. I wouldn't really use that as a reason from keeping it S-Rank. It's defenses and resistances make it one of the best special walls in OU.

I would completely agree w/ this statement (and I still do) but Jirachi fails to wall special variants of Landorus-I, who (by raw stats) is a more powerful special sweeper than even SpecsKeldeo. (577>535).

Either way, Jirachi for S-rank.

How did I get to Lando's SpA stat (roughly)

Hide

I multiplied 361 (Modest Lando) by 1.6 (the Sheer Force which is 30% plus a Life orb boost which is another 30%, 30+30=60 which equals 1.6). 577 is greater than 535.