Announcement The Gas Face - Gastly Suspect Test

[Coconut]

"A Gas Face can either be a smile or a smirk
When appears, a monkey wrench to work one's clockwork"
​

Gastly has long been a contentious Pokemon. Since the removal of Pursuit, Gastly has been an elite threat throughout the LC metagames, often resulting in a ban for its overwhelming power. Gastly's game plan has mostly stayed the same: come in, deal a ton of damage, get out safely. While there naturally have been adaptations and changes in the idea, from Z-Moves to Choice Scarf and more, Gastly, from the preview is a threat to keep in mind. To the point where it was even banned at the beginning of the generation.

So what's changed? What's so special about Gastly right now that makes it an interesting and notable threat? Gastly was first unbanned with the beginning of DLC2. Along with Hisuian Growlithe, the ghost appeared to have enough checks and reasonable answers at the beginning of the update to warrant the unban. Since then, Gastly has followed its prototypical game plan. Safely get into the fight, do a ton of damage quickly, and get out to do it again later. Gastly's incredibly powerful STAB moves in Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb/Sludge Wave has extremely important coverage, hitting nearly every Pokemon for neutral damage. Gastly's coverage for those two moves also includes Thunderbolt, Dazzling Gleam, and Psychic, so leaving in Pokemon such as Vullaby or Mienfoo isn't safe when they could be slapped by Super Effective coverage. That being said there are a few counters to the extremely powerful Life Orb set. The everpresent Pawniard has the ability to handle most of the things Gastly can click. While it cannot click Sucker Punch freely, mainly due to Gastly often running Substitute, Pawniard generally wins the Life Orb Gastly matchup. But Pawniard isn't the only interesting Dark-type on the block this time. Stunky has emerged as a legitimate threat in the metagame. Boasting Knock Off and the same max speed as Gastly, one speed tie could completely eliminate Gastly as a threat. And Stunky doesn't really care about being hit by either of Gastly's STAB moves; a true counter to the Life Orb set! Combined with Pokemon that outspeed Gastly, such as Hisuan Voltorb or Scarf sets such as Hisuan Growlithe, Gastly can be managed through careful scouting, proper positioning in play, and bringing in Pokemon who don't get OHKO'd by Gastly's options.

With that in mind, it's time to talk about how Gastly adapts to the checks and counters it has. As we've only talked about the Life Orb set, Gastly has two other sets which allow it to control the pace of the game. The Eviolite set has become an interesting way of circumnavigating the primary Dark-types who attempt to outlast Gastly. Will-o-wisp allows Gastly to not only avoid Sucker Punch, but also half the attack stat of the Pokemon attempting to kill Gastly. Stunky and Pawniard also cannot freely switch into a Gastly for the fear of getting burned is too much of a risk to take. Additionally, Gastly typically runs Hex to increase its damage output after a burn, so switching in Pokemon that might not mind a burn are suddenly in danger of eating more damage. Gastly also has the ability to switch-in to several Pokemon, now letting it forgo the first step of getting in safely. Gastly also has another trick up its sleeve with the Choice Scarf set. Once a fairly popular set, Choice Scarf Gastly allows it to nail Pokemon who might expect to outspeed it. Finally, the elephant in the room, Terastallization allows it to outplay key threats and change into just about any type the player chooses to be.

So what's the counterplay? Well, Gastly only has four moves. It can't run coverage for everything and Wisp can only really be run on one set. Life Orb is pretty easy to spot on just about any set, which means that if see chip damage, you're likely not going to get burned. Choice Scarf and Eviolite don't have those clear tells, but if you hit Gastly you can determine if it's running Eviolite or not. Gastly also typically cannot switch into much without an Eviolite, so you're typically going to have to very carefully bring it in on a free turn or a safe oppotunity. Finally, Gastly cannot simply OHKO everything. Chip damage and weakening key threats is essential for Gastly to be a threat. That being said, we are here to determine if Gastly is a healthy presense for the metagame and if not, to remove it again.

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 78 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 82. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 78 GXE is fine.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
78	50
78.2	49
78.4	48
78.6	47
78.8	46
79	45
79.2	44
79.4	43
79.6	42
79.8	41
80	40
80.2	39
80.4	38
80.6	37
80.8	36
81	35
81.2	34
81.4	33
81.6	32
81.8	31
82	30

For this suspect test, we will be using the regular SV LC ladder, so you must create a new account that begins with "FPSFLC" to qualify. When you have reached the requirements, click here to post your proof. Gastly will be legal on the ladder until the suspect is over. The suspect period will end on Saturday, April 20th at 10:00 PM GMT-4.

When posting in this thread, please keep in mind these rules:
1. No one-liners or uninformed posts.
2. No discussion on other potential suspects or the suspect process.
3. Be respectful.
Your post will be deleted and possibly infracted if you fail to follow them.

"yo, who gets the Gas Face?"

​

 

[Freddygyattbear]

gastly is a bit of a problem. I love using it but i’d like to watch how the meta shifts without it. a mon that can throw out status and damage with little so drawback is just not right in LC. From what i’ve seen so far, it only gets outsped by like 3-4 common things? and it plays well against hvoltorb with sludge wave. If you pair it with good hazards, it can come in and start getting KOs before the opponent can do too much. with life orb, it can take hefty chunks out of bulkier stuff trying to come in. and with all of its coverage, most stuff just gets OHKOd.
i think eviolite mudbray can take one shadow ball and live, but it can’t even EQ it. it’s running rampant in LC and can fit any and everywhere.

But on the other side, gastly helps fight against relevant threats like glimmet and vullaby and hvoltorb(with a scarf set) It has a lot of lategame potential and fills in gaps in teams. it has a ton of options, but it still takes work to make it win. a ban would let certain things switch in without worrying about getting covered easily. it is a catch-all against common cores that run fighting, grass, and dark types. While the meta is trying to fit around gastly, gastly itself keeps other things in check. a ban would mean the strong options get their competition taken out. without gastly, stunky loses its main niche. with TWO poisons(one of them being a good wisp user) out of the picture, the physical offense in the meta would be free to run wild. gastly(wisp or otherwise) stops hyper offense in a way not much else can.

So no ban means the meta stays the same with the same few strong options dominating. A ban would lead to major shifts now that a key player is gone. I personally lean towards a ban, because i feel like it fills too many roles at a good level. a fast, ground immune, SPIKES immune, status giving, coverage monster is just too overwhelming for the current gen. Maybe once tera is gone, it can find a place in the tier. but for right now, it’s too overbearing on a meta that only has two flawed checks to it.

 

[genisu]

Gastly feels like nothing in the metagame can properly check it. It has 3 viable sets, all of whom are able to be insanely overpowered. Its Scarf set is the definition of speed control with great coverage. Its LO set is the most powerful breaker in the meta game. Its wisphex set allows it to play more of a defensive role, but as it is faster then most of the metagame, can still put insane work in. It is also very forcing in the teambuilder, forcing you to bring Pawniard, Stunky, spunch lo gast, or do some defensive tera later(not recommended to have this as your only option). Also, anyone playing our metagame at a high level knows that every team rn is extremely similar and teambuilding is very centralized. In my opinion banning Gastly would make teambuilding more fun and lead to more variety in the game. I will probably be voting BAN but might change my mind as I get reqs.

 

[#1 Talonflame Enjoyer]

Personally, I didn't even think Gastly was that crazy, but it's getting suspected, so I'm gonna give my argument.

First off, I want to say that I understand the wanting for a ban, The amazing movepool gives tons of opportunities to which you don't know what is threatened and what is not. Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb / Wave are great powerful stabs, and now that we have Tera Blast, (otherwise known as Hidden Power Fighting on steroids) makes it very difficult to find an opportunity to get in and one shot. It also should be known it gets Will-O-Wisp and substitute to be an absolute pain in the rear. The variety is very much a reason to ban it, being how large it is, not only that, but the fact Mienfoo, one of little cup's most notorious Pokemon for Fake out and High Jump Kick, struggles very hard against the ghost typing of Gastly. Also being the type gives it a way to be a spin blocker makes it not only great offensively with a wide movepool, on top of that, it's glaring weakness to ground because of the poison type is entirely GONE due to levitate, meaning things like Alolan Diglett can' just come in like the speed Demon it is and earthquake it into next Sunday. Meaning Gastly has insane defensive and offensive capabilities, and definitely could be banned.


On the contrary, it is weak to Knock off, one of Little Cup's biggest meta's in itself. While this is fixable by Tera, there is still a notable amount of fast knockers like Stunky and scarf Mienfoo. That if not anticipated, can just be one shot (mainly the life orb variant.) That being said, it can still take advantage of the prediction and set up with something like nasty plot, (though unpopular) and sweep, to which I am actually surprised nobody thought of mentioning (until I did now), or just kill or do big damage with dazzling gleam/psychic. But it should also be taken into accountability how frail it can be, and that this can be exploited by common Scarfers such as Hisuian Growlithe, Gothita, and sometimes even Elekid with either Head Smash or Psychic. Now of course, there is the bulky eviolite burn set, to which I think is more threatening because of how much of a pain it can be due to the sheer amount of physical attackers in this meta like Mienfoo, Vullaby, and Timburr, to name a few. But the eviolite set also has flaws, namely, not having many attacks. (Usually Hex, Will-O-Wisp, Sub, and Nasty Plot or another coverage move.) giving opportunity for something like Stunky opportunity to do major damage or more likely, OHKO with knock off (if it isn't burned or just straight up outspeeds with scarf).

A good few checks to Gastly I would say would be Stunky, Scarf Gothita, Scarf Hisuian-Growlithe, and possibly Hisui-Voltorb (If the Gastly has taken some damage). And itself. Admittedly, it's again, very versitile so I am not sure of many counters outside of Koffing (If Gastly isn't running Psychic) but if you know of any others, I'd be interesting in hearing them.

Anyways, that's about all I have to say for now, but being honest, I am leaning towards the DO NOT BAN simply because I don't find it much of a problem to deal with, but personally, it's just me, and if I am being honest, there is a good chance it'll get banned anyways being that I still have to get reqs. Anywho, thanks for taking the time to listen to my argument, God bless y'all.

(Edit: If I did something wrong, feel free to comment, again, just my thoughts, I don't really care if it's banned or not, and also could be convinced to ban. Also, if I am not supposed to post unless I have reqs, please tell me, I will take down the post, I am kind of gullible.)

 

[vndrevc]

it is the best pokemon in the tier, it is above the other threats, it can perform a 'bulky' role, can be ran as speed control, break everything with life orb. and is so easy to play with it, just spam shadow balls and then win oO.

im leaning towards ban gastly, and it's about time to we stop telling ourselves that stunky can deal with it. LO thunderbolt does 40% and stunky can get burned by evio gastly pretty easily turn 2 if we see a mienfoo x gastly lead.

 

[Colin]

I'm leaning towards ban, but I don't think Gastly is the main reason the meta is so centralized. It forces all teams to have multiple speed control options vs it, to have sturdy ghost resists for choice scarf, and to either have dedicated switch ins such as Stunky/Pawniard or just not use anything that a Life Orb Gastly can easily exploit with pivoting support (Mienfoo and Vullaby mainly). Its an elite and versatile breaker, and it is a significant presence, but it doesn't force as much as Mienfoo and Vullaby do, while also being less defensively versatile and therefore harder to build with comparatively. Mienfoo and Vullaby I believe are more overbearing on the meta, because Mienfoo is near mandatory, and teams either have to accept trading their own Mienfoo with their opponent's early game, or carry dedicated switch ins such as Foongus, Mareanie, or Snubbull, all of which are very flawed especially with but also without Gastly in the tier. I think in this specific context Gastly improves the metagame, because it offers a fast breaker that threatens healthy fast Mienfoo, or encourages slow Mienfoo, a very good but less dangerous set in most endgames. Vullaby is less forced, but it does force somewhat dedicated answers on all teams, and is a very dangerous sweeper vs weakened teams if it gets a Weak Armor boost. The switch ins to Vullaby, usually Pdef Mudbray, Glimmet, and Pawniard, are generally better Pokemon into the meta, and they can set Stealth Rocks to pressure Vullaby. Outside of being a Ghost resist for choice scarf Gastly, Vullaby rarely interacts with Gastly because it fears coverage but can live a hit from full HP.

Gastly is being suspected, and it is true that Gastly has no truly safe switch ins with Eviolite status sets and Life Orb sets being amazing breakers. Dark types are pretty much mandatory because of Gastly, although my guess would be that they would have >80% usage anyway because Vullaby is that good, and Stunky and Pawniard are both very useful in the builder. The main impact is that speed control is even more important, so you can limit its opportunity and try to win before the Gastly does. I'll probably vote ban when I get reqs because Gastly is part of the problem, but I think Mienfoo is more banworthy and is a bigger reason why the meta has stagnated.

 

[Eniigma]

honestly feels like i have to have a stunky in every team to eat those sludge and balls. The very presence of this mon ruins some of my unique stuffs so leading towards ban

 

[Roldski32]

As i said in the LC room yesterday:
"Roldski32: if i'm to be honest, the gastly unban at the start of dlc2 was the oddest thing"

Gastly has always been very hard to reliably deal with defensively, to the point the best way of dealing with Gastly is often through offensive pressure, particularly outspeeding it with faster pokemon such as Diglett-Alola, Voltorb-Hisui, Scarf Dog, etc. .Unless you memorized the Stealth Rock chip damage(19 HP Gastly drops to 89% / 20 HP Gastly drops to 90%), defensive counterplay is just almost impossible if you take account both Life Orb and Eviolite set and trying to guess which one Gastly is running, which had 2 different answers. Life Orb set alone was already difficult to switch into due to its sheer power and those that could otherwise switch into it such as Stunky and Pawniard, hated switching into Wisp from Eviolite set.

 

[Hacker]

for the sake of literally not copy pasting my post from metagame discussion

the only real counterplay to gastly is having in faster offensive guys that can kill it, and even those get owned by scarf gastly. mons that could theoretically handle gastly defensively like pawniard, stunky, etc all either get 2 shot by life orb or just get burnt and arent really much of a pokemon after getting burned lol. also life orb literally kills half the meta. you have to respect all gastly sets in game, and that is pretty impossible as stuff like defensive teras you would do to handle life orb gastly better get owned by evio gastly just burning the main beneficiaries of defensive tera vs gastly like foo.

now onto arguing with the only pro gastly post in the thread so far lol

On the contrary, it is weak to Knock off
On the contrary, it is weak to Knock off, one of Little Cup's biggest meta's in itself. While this is fixable by Tera, there is still a notable amount of fast knockers like Stunky and scarf Mienfoo.

knock users get absolutely smoked by evio wisp. foo gets burnt while also fearing getting koed by life orb. stunky and pawniard both get burnt on swap and its not hard to force them in to "check" it just by the sheer threat of life orb gastly. evio gastly also lives a scarf foo (already rare set and unreliable at that bc its hard to click hjk with gastly around) after rocks

That if not anticipated, can just be one shot (mainly the life orb variant.)

its a glass cannon pokemon - you get it in safely (which isnt too hard with pivots like foo and holtorb) and it kills something. but the evio set is deceptively bulky and even lorb lives stuff like holtorb tbolts from full

But it should also be taken into accountability how frail it can be, and that this can be exploited by common Scarfers such as Hisuian Growlithe, Gothita, and sometimes even Elekid with either Head Smash or Psychic.

the evio set lives attacks. and these guys aren't reliable counterplay because they get owned by scarf gastly

But the eviolite set also has flaws, namely, not having many attacks.

maybe just me here unironically but ive never had this problem with that set

A good few checks to Gastly I would say would be Stunky, Scarf Gothita, Scarf Hisuian-Growlithe, and possibly Hisui-Voltorb (If the Gastly has taken some damage).

stunky: burned or 2hkoed by life orb
scarf goth, hisulithe get owned by scarf
gastly lives holtorb hit from full but also holtorb has to respect scarf

i think everyone can tell i think its broken and easily banworthy, ye?

 

[WailmerWasher]

Honestly, I think Gastly does have enough checks these days with more pokemon outspeeding it, and with Knock Off ever present, that it can be reliably countered.

This is made easier thanks to the fact that Weak Armour Vulaby is a prominent sweeper atm, and with it being Dark Type it resists it's Ghost STAB. Yes, it does get hit Super Effectively by Thunderbolt and Dazzling Gleam, a Semi-Bulky EV Spread can let it live both of these attacks (without Tera)

Also, Stunky is really Meta atm, and it counters Gastly pretty well.

I honestly couldn't care less if Gastly is banned, since I prefer using Driftloon.

 

[Novax]

Honestly, I think Gastly does have enough checks these days with more pokemon outspeeding it, and with Knock Off ever present, that it can be reliably countered.

This is made easier thanks to the fact that Weak Armour Vulaby is a prominent sweeper atm, and with it being Dark Type it resists it's Ghost STAB. Yes, it does get hit Super Effectively by Thunderbolt and Dazzling Gleam, a Semi-Bulky EV Spread can let it live both of these attacks (without Tera)

Gastly can cripple the incoming vullaby with Will-o-wisp. Gastly doesn't run physical moves 99.9% of the times so you don't get your weak armor boost either. Eviloite gastly can also lives a knock off from a burned vullaby, and once the vullaby is burned, it is not gonna sweep any team for you. The same can be said for a majority of gastly checks like stunky and mienfoo. This results in requiring multiple gastly checks in one team since your gastly answer is not always guaranteed to beat gastly, thus heavily limiting teambuilding. Life Orb gastly on the other hand has even a chance to OHKO Vullaby if you don't run max-max investments.

As far as Outspeeding the mon is concerned, Gastly has an amazing speed tier of 18 which goes as high as 27 with scarf which even outspeeds Adamant Shellder after a +2 speed boost and most other scarfers. One of the most common scarfer in the tier: Scarf Growlithe and even scarf mienfoo (which is even rarer and less viable imo) both lose to scarf Gastly, and there is no way to tell if a Gastly is running scarf/eviolite/life orb on team preview. By the time you know the item, in most of the cases, it is already too late.

 

[glowbrogang]

Gastly's domination in the Little Cup metagame has reached unprecedented levels, largely due to its versatility and potent movesets. Its Life Orb set, boasting a combination of Sludge Wave, Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, and Psychic, enables it to hit a wide array of opponents with devastating force, while its Choice Scarf variant brings an unexpected speed factor, making it capable of outpacing many threats and denting opposing teams with Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, Thunderbolt, and the disruptive Trick. Furthermore, its Eviolite set showcases its defensive capabilities, utilizing moves like Will-O-Wisp, Hex, Sludge Bomb, and Dazzling Gleam to both spread status ailments and deal considerable damage. With its Levitate ability granting immunity to Ground-type moves, Gastly can freely maneuver around the battlefield, leaving few viable counters against its relentless assault. As its dominance continues unchecked, calls for its ban from the Little Cup metagame grow louder, as trainers struggle to find effective strategies to counteract its overwhelming presence.

Gastly is in the Little Cup metagame, and this ascent reveals how dynamic and impressive the moves it has. Some of them include the Life Orb set, which has a combination of Sludge Wave, Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, and Psychic that help to cause different types of destruction on its opponents. Also, there is a Choice Scarf variant which can be used as a surprise factor by outspeeding many foes while dealing heavy blows with Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, Thunderbolt, and Trick. Another iconic set showcasing the defensive capabilities of Gastly is the Eviolite one that involves using Will-O-Wisp, Hex, Sludge Bomb, and Dazzling Gleam to afflict status conditions upon adversaries or deal heavy damage. As Gastly possesses the Levitate capability, it’s able to dodge any attacks from Ground types easily while keeping up pressure on opponent teams. With its continued dominance comes an urgent call for its expulsion from Little Cup metagame hence leaving trainers struggling to come up with ways of dealing with such threats.

Furthermore, we can see this by looking at some calcs such as these:
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Psychic vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-23 (85.7 - 109.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 16-21 (69.5 - 91.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 116 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Mudbray: 13-18 (52 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196 SpA Tera Ground Gastly Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Stunky: 24-30 (104.3 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (I did in fact see some of this during my reqs)
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Psychic vs. 124 HP / 156 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 16-21 (64 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk burned Pawniard Night Slash vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Gastly: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO
236+ Atk Growlithe-Hisui Flare Blitz vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Gastly: 16-19 (80 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These are just some calcs that may happen, and what Gastly doesn't OHKO, usually will get OHKO'd by either rocks or rocks+Tera, further exemplifying the strength of Gastly. Gastly also may tend to use a specific set and you may not know until it's too late, and even then a Gastly may run an unconventional set causing your "counters" to drop to a tera blast ground. So I say, we ban Gastly, see for a bit what is good and what is not, and possibly ban Tera as that is the other problem I would say.

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Free P Diddy, haha react if you disagree, otherwise like and I will give more knowledgable posts soon.