Other The effectiveness of Baton Pass teams after the nerf

[Baharoth]

Wouldnt it be possible to just change the solution from option 2 to option 3? I mean the last suspect showed that the majority of the players want BP gone, however due to the lack of understanding for the team they picked the wrong solution and now BP is arguably even stronger than before. I guess nobody wants another suspect for that and its obvious that option 2 wasnt an ideal solution, so if the council would just change it to option 3 now everyone would be happy. Yeah its not what the community decided but i guess almost everyone who voted against bp would change his vote now if he could so its probably not much of a stretch...

 

[Deleted User 220884]

People thought that using Option 2, would screw BP over, but now just looking at this whole thread and replays, it seems it made it more versatile and harder to go up against.

 

[Galladium]

I like how no one gets that the whole point of the suspect was to nerf baton pass and not to make it unviable/unusable.

Definition: In video gaming, a nerf is a change to a game that reduces the desirability or effectiveness of a particular game element. The term is also used as a verb for the act of making such a change.

Just skimming through the thread, people complain that bp still works albeit less effectively than before. Hence achieving the goal of the suspect and yet people still bitch. EFFFS you people are never happy.

The point this thread are trying to make is that whilst Baton Pass was nerfed (hence the fact there are no more 6-Pokemon BP teams), it was not nerfed enough, and is still OP even with only 3 Baton Passers per team. Read the first post.

 

[Aquaslash]

The point this thread are trying to make is that whilst Baton Pass was nerfed (hence the fact there are no more 6-Pokemon BP teams), it was not nerfed enough, and is still OP even with only 3 Baton Passers per team. Read the first post.

What is "enough"? Limited to only one mon that you can easily kill? It REALLY sounds like you people want to disregard BP as a playstyle, demolish it without any thought, and are whining because it isn't happening. Every replay I've seen in this thread has been a skilled player using a strategy effectively, and people whining that they can't beat him.

 

[Galladium]

What is "enough"? Limited to only one mon that you can easily kill? It REALLY sounds like you people want to disregard BP as a playstyle, demolish it without any thought, and are whining because it isn't happening. Every replay I've seen in this thread has been a skilled player using a strategy effectively, and people whining that they can't beat him.

'Enough' is when the average team can counter Baton Pass without having to run obscure/otherwise pointless counters, like Haze on random Pokemon or Taunt on Mega Gyarados. So far, even with the amount of Baton Passers per team limited to 3, this hasn't happened.

I admit that Baton Pass is a playstyle. However, full Baton Pass chains as a playstyle were unhealthy for the metagame, and so they were nerfed. This is just like what happened with SwagPlay, a commonly used playstyle was determined to be uncompetitive, and so it was nerfed.

As a matter of fact, limiting Baton Pass to only one Pokemon per team does not kill off Baton Pass, as Quickpass can still be used. 'Baton Pass' as a playstyle is not limited to full Baton Pass teams.

Finally, with the replays, it doesn't matter if a skilled player can use a strategy effectively. What is important is that the strategy in itself is unhealthy and not very beneficial for the meta as a whole.

 

[Aquaslash]

'Enough' is when the average team can counter Baton Pass without having to run obscure/otherwise pointless counters, like Haze on random Pokemon or Taunt on Mega Gyarados. So far, even with the amount of Baton Passers per team limited to 3, this hasn't happened.

Please, enlighten me. How does "the average team" beat HO. Stall? Balance?

 

[WebBowser]

Red Cat Thanks for the compliment, but a quick correction: I was strictly interested in testing the potential of quick pass scolipede, and never had more then one BPer during the suspect test.

I really do appreciate the compliment though...

@people who think deo-s is what's breaking BP atm: Yes, deo-s is powerful, probably broken, but deo-s is hardly the only mon capable of super reliable screens. Klefki is just as reliable and Azelf/Latios is plenty capable of threatening out prankster taunters. While deo-s is no doubt helping BP a lot, it also checks BP by being able to outspeed and ohko +1 scoli, so banning it would not do much for it's power tbh. In fact I made an argument earlier that it's ban would actually help BP.

TFL I agree that the existence of counters do not make something "not broken", especially when the counters themselves may or may not be broken.

That being said, I also believe that the standards for banning a move should be much higher then the standards for banning a single mon, especially when the move in question has as wide of distribution (gotta love Pokemon XD) and amount of utility as baton pass. As you know, I have made a great number of arguments for the brokenness of Scolipede, and why he enables baton pass to be what it is.

So I ask you to do one of two things if you truly believe baton pass is a inherently broken move:

1. Find me a single pokemon besides Scolipede that is independently broken because it has baton pass (for example, Blaziken is broken because of it's ability and dual STAB, not because it just happens to get BP). Meaning that this pokemon fits one of the ubers characteristics without the aid of a full BP team. If Scolipede is the only mon that can be considered broken simply because it has baton pass, then banning baton pass would be like banning dragon dance just because zard-x is an op dragon dance sweeper (and no, I'm not saying zard x is op or that banning dragon dance is a good idea).

2. Create a Scolipede-less BP team, with any number of BPers (I personally do not care for the 3 mon BP ban and think that it should be revoked tbh), and make a strong argument for it's brokenness, preferably supported with replay evidence against another competent player. If a single broken mon is causing a team to be broken, then banning a key move on said broken mon would be like banning setup moves because HO happens to have an OP threat on it.

This invitation is open to anyone who is seriously considering a blanket ban of BP, and if you want your grumblings to be anything more then just that, grumblings, then I advise you to accept, for grumblings generally do a rather poor job at convincing anyone.

P.S. Quick admission, I actually have a strong bias against a blanket ban of BP, as one of my favorite UU teams depends on BP Vaporeon and Umbreon for wish passing. In fact, a large part of the reason why I got involved in this suspect was to avoid that very outcome. If you believe the criteria I set forth is unrealistic or if my counter-arguments suddenly turn to crap, let me know.

P.S.S. Yes I do have counter arguments prepared, especially #1, so please have a strong argument to present. Take your time and do some research. It took me multiple months for me to develop my opinion and argument against Scolipede, and I still missed something so obvious such as duel screens.

P.S.S.S. Pokemon XD and Coliseum are amazing, and I will not tolerate any bashing of the two.

*edit*

Aquaslash There is a pretty good chance that HO has at least one broken mon at its disposal for abuse, just look at the S rank on the viability thread, every single one of them is a well known HO threat. That being said, it is still beatable. Balance has aegislash, who is capable of checking a wide variety of setup threats before they get out of hand, as well as dozens of strong priority users. Stall has two very viable unaware mons in clefable and quagsire. They both have a fighting shot against HO, even in losing matches.

Regardless though, the brokenness of HO, if anything, is an argument for the brokenness of BP, not against. It is well known that HO is the only playstyle that has a roughly even matchup against BP. If HO is broken or is abusing broken threats *cough*thundy*cough*, then we have a case of broken checking broken. Broken checking broken is not a good thing for anti-ban advocates.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Red Cat Thanks for the compliment, but a quick correction: I was strictly interested in testing the potential of quick pass scolipede, and never had more then one BPer during the suspect test.

I really do appreciate the compliment though...

@people who think deo-s is what's breaking BP atm: Yes, deo-s is powerful, probably broken, but deo-s is hardly the only mon capable of super reliable screens. Klefki is just as reliable and Azelf/Latios is plenty capable of threatening out prankster taunters. While deo-s is no doubt helping BP a lot, it also checks BP by being able to outspeed and ohko +1 scoli, so banning it would not do much for it's power tbh. In fact I made an argument earlier that it's ban would actually help BP.

TFL I agree that the existence of counters do not make something "not broken", especially when the counters themselves may or may not be broken.

That being said, I also believe that the standards for banning a move should be much higher then the standards for banning a single mon, especially when the move in question has as wide of distribution (gotta love Pokemon XD) and amount of utility as baton pass. As you know, I have made a great number of arguments for the brokenness of Scolipede, and why he enables baton pass to be what it is.

So I ask you to do one of two things if you truly believe baton pass is a inherently broken move:

1. Find me a single pokemon besides Scolipede that is independently broken because it has baton pass (for example, Blaziken is broken because of it's ability and dual STAB, not because it just happens to get BP). Meaning that this pokemon fits one of the ubers characteristics without the aid of a full BP team. If Scolipede is the only mon that can be considered broken simply because it has baton pass, then banning baton pass would be like banning dragon dance just because zard-x is an op dragon dance sweeper (and no, I'm not saying zard x is op or that banning dragon dance is a good idea).

2. Create a Scolipede-less BP team, with any number of BPers (I personally do not care for the 3 mon BP ban and think that it should be revoked tbh), and make a strong argument for it's brokenness, preferably supported with replay evidence against another competent player. If a single broken mon is causing a team to be broken, then banning a key move on said broken mon would be like banning setup moves because HO happens to have an OP threat on it.

This invitation is open to anyone who is seriously considering a blanket ban of BP, and if you want your grumblings to be anything more then just that, grumblings, then I advise you to accept, for grumblings generally do a rather poor job at convincing anyone.

P.S. Quick admission, I actually have a strong bias against a blanket ban of BP, as one of my favorite UU teams depends on BP vaporeon and Umbreon for wish passing. If you believe the criteria I set forth is unrealistic or if my counter-arguments suddenly turn to crap.

P.S.S. Yes I do have counter arguments prepared, especially #1, so please have a strong argument to present. Take your time and do some research. It took me multiple months for me to develop my opinion and argument against Scolipede, and I still missed something so obvious such as duel screens.

P.S.S.S. Pokemon XD and Coliseum are amazing, and I will not tolerate any bashing of the two.

alright, so I have a question, not an argument. do you believe quick pass scolipede(iron defense)is broken outside of BP chains?

 

[Aquaslash]

Aquaslash There is a pretty good chance that HO has at least one broken mon at its disposal for abuse, just look at the S rank on the viability thread, every single one of them is a well known HO threat. That being said, it is still beatable. Balance has aegislash, who is capable of checking a wide variety of setup threats before they get out of hand, as well as dozens of strong priority users. Stall has two very viable unaware mons in clefable and quagsire. They both have a fighting shot against HO, even in losing matches.

Regardless though, the brokenness of HO, if anything, is an argument for the brokenness of BP, not against. It is well known that HO is the only playstyle that has a roughly even matchup against BP. If HO is broken or is abusing broken threats *cough*thundy*cough*, then we have a case of broken checking broken. Broken checking broken is not a good thing for anti-ban advocates.

While an interesting point, that's actually not the point I plan on making.

 

[WebBowser]

alright, so I have a question, not an argument. do you believe quick pass scolipede(iron defense)is broken outside of BP chains?

That is correct. Here's a basic summery of my arguments:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ss-read-post-590.3507765/page-21#post-5511318

That there either contains or has links to the lump sum of everything I know about scolipede to date, as well as my reasoning for it being broken. I have yet to research how well dual screen synergyze with Scoli, but frankly I can only see them helping him.

 

[Galladium]

Please, enlighten me. How does "the average team" beat HO. Stall? Balance?

With full Baton Pass teams, (or sometimes teams with only 3 Baton Passers) unless you have a specific counter for it, or your opponent majorly stuffs up, you're most likely going to lose. When a half decent team goes against HO., stall, etc, they at least have a reasonable chance of winning, assuming both players have an equal level of skill.

 

[RevengeOfHiddenPower]

I have yet to see any proof of 3BP being "broken" in any way. If good players can win with it, it's fine. If bad players can win with it, then we have a problem. So here's a question. Can anyone just pick up a 3BP team and climb the ladder with it like they could with 6BP?

 

[looiiyut]

Hi! People thought "BP is dead!" after BP clause and I was curious to see the new team of Denis (because we are talking about denis's team not a common BP). When I saw the BP 2.0 I thought "damn, it works!"
I was really impressed, he is a genius! These are the best teams of generation VI.
I think that perish song toad and thundurus are the main threats of BP 2.0 and I grouped some replays. "another rain team with perish song toad" replay is amazing!!!!!
IMO there are only two way to beat him: hax and hax again.
What do you think about the replays?

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-133344382 - vs mega pinsir

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-133092833 - vs taunt bisharp

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-133065469 - vs taunt thundurus

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-133067759 - vs rain team with perish song toad

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-133525480 - another rain team with perish song toad

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-133126922 - vs haze honchkrow

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-133275209 - haze milotic

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-133264935 - haze tenta

 

[shack]

With full Baton Pass teams, (or sometimes teams with only 3 Baton Passers) unless you have a specific counter for it, or your opponent majorly stuffs up, you're most likely going to lose. When a half decent team goes against HO., stall, etc, they at least have a reasonable chance of winning, assuming both players have an equal level of skill.

Doesn't that logic work with everything else in competitive games also? If you don't have a pokemon that can take care of Aegislash, you are going to lose. If you are not prepared for a situation and caught off guard, then you will most likely lose. People carry Rapid Spin and Defog to help clear entry hazards even though those moves alone are nearly useless. If you go up against a team that doesn't use hazards, then that slot is a complete waste. Why doesn't that same logic apply to carrying a move like Perish Song in order to deal with BP?

 

[jbtc10]

While deo-s is no doubt helping BP a lot, it also checks BP by being able to outspeed and ohko +1 scoli, so banning it would not do much for it's power tbh. In fact I made an argument earlier that it's ban would actually help BP.

Minor nitpick, but Scoli should generally be running 188 Spd Timid for that exact reason, so it can Protect to get to +1, then Sub before the Psycho boost. I know you used a max Def max HP Scoli which can have some subtle advantages at times, but imo that isn't quite optimal. Scoli by default has to be able to naturally outspeed positive base 100's so that it can scout Charizard better with Substitute, among other things, and the step up from doing that to outspeeding Deo-S at +1 isn't that much.

 

[k.r.o.b.]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-134198781
I've beaten someone copying denisss team (or maybe denisss himself,because the nicks are the same) on the suspect ladder,with a team still in test phase without dedicated BP counters. Probably I managed to do that because I read this thread before,so I perfectly knew the team I was facing.
My opinion is that semi-bp is so threatening right now because it's not well known,but it's not an unbeatable playstile

 

[k.r.o.b.]

i doubt it was deniss,but if I can beat him without an anti-bp team,a top tier player can beat deniss

 

[Jukain]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-134198781
I've beaten someone copying denisss team (or maybe denisss himself,because the nicks are the same) on the suspect ladder,with a team still in test phase without dedicated BP counters. Probably I managed to do that because I read this thread before,so I perfectly knew the team I was facing.
My opinion is that semi-bp is so threatening right now because it's not well known,but it's not an unbeatable playstile

That's because you're running Mega Alakazam, one of the best BP checks around...

 

[Random Passerby]

Doesn't that logic work with everything else in competitive games also? If you don't have a pokemon that can take care of Aegislash, you are going to lose. If you are not prepared for a situation and caught off guard, then you will most likely lose. People carry Rapid Spin and Defog to help clear entry hazards even though those moves alone are nearly useless. If you go up against a team that doesn't use hazards, then that slot is a complete waste. Why doesn't that same logic apply to carrying a move like Perish Song in order to deal with BP?

I fail to see why you brought Aegislash into this. In the process of teambuilding, you will definitely have something on your team that is viable AND can take Aegislash on. Even if you don't counter it, there will exist checks in your team. Furthermore, even if you aren't prepared for it, you can still play around it, unlike BP where no preparation = gg most of the time.

The difference between BP and hazards is that hazards is used by virtually everyone. Also, even if you don't carry something to take care of hazards, you can still live with it. This is obviously a very big contrast with BP teams where if you don't have a perfect counter, you will lose 99% of the time. Even if you do bring your counter in, chances are it might not work as well as you hoped. Basically, this means you are carrying Poke X which is useless in every other situation except for Baton Pass, whom it did only slightly better than Poke Y which is seen as less of a liability (although Poke Y does not do well against BP teams) -> You are weakening yourself by doing this.

 

[WebBowser]

Minor nitpick, but Scoli should generally be running 188 Spd Timid for that exact reason, so it can Protect to get to +1, then Sub before the Psycho boost. I know you used a max Def max HP Scoli which can have some subtle advantages at times, but imo that isn't quite optimal. Scoli by default has to be able to naturally outspeed positive base 100's so that it can scout Charizard better with Substitute, among other things, and the step up from doing that to outspeeding Deo-S at +1 isn't that much.

Prolly has something to do with this...

252+ Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. +2 240 HP / 92 Def Scolipede: 270-318 (84.1 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Scolipede: 210-248 (64.8 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I know that a 2hko is a 2hko, but the latter calc allows me to come into SR and grab another speed boost later in the game. For me that's a big deal because I have a long standing habit of not being able to sweep on my first pass for one stupid reason or another. Also, I dislike subs because I rarely see the need to stall for boosts and I'd rather catch folks off guard with rock slide or EQ...

that being said, outspeeding zard-x would be pretty sweet, I'll look into that.

 

[looiiyut]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-134198781
I've beaten someone copying denisss team (or maybe denisss himself,because the nicks are the same) on the suspect ladder,with a team still in test phase without dedicated BP counters. Probably I managed to do that because I read this thread before,so I perfectly knew the team I was facing.
My opinion is that semi-bp is so threatening right now because it's not well known,but it's not an unbeatable playstile

He used stored power after +6 boost against a mega alakazam!? lol Man, it's clear! He isn't Denis but a common bad copy

I have yet to see any proof of 3BP being "broken" in any way. If good players can win with it, it's fine. If bad players can win with it, then we have a problem. So here's a question. Can anyone just pick up a 3BP team and climb the ladder with it like they could with 6BP?

Right, this is the problem! The answer to your question is: only Denis! So now the question is: who or what is the real metagame's threat? Denis or BP strategy?

I fail to see why you brought Aegislash into this. In the process of teambuilding, you will definitely have something on your team that is viable AND can take Aegislash on. Even if you don't counter it, there will exist checks in your team. Furthermore, even if you aren't prepared for it, you can still play around it, unlike BP where no preparation = gg most of the time.

The difference between BP and hazards is that hazards is used by virtually everyone. Also, even if you don't carry something to take care of hazards, you can still live with it. This is obviously a very big contrast with BP teams where if you don't have a perfect counter, you will lose 99% of the time. Even if you do bring your counter in, chances are it might not work as well as you hoped. Basically, this means you are carrying Poke X which is useless in every other situation except for Baton Pass, whom it did only slightly better than Poke Y which is seen as less of a liability (although Poke Y does not do well against BP teams) -> You are weakening yourself by doing this.

Do you think that taunt thundurus, trace Gardevoir or perish Toad are useless? They are BP threat for bad Baton passer. We are in front of a great player that solve this threats easily (watch the replays that I listed in my previous post).
For example in this test battle (I love test UU or RU pokemon and I'm testing tangela) I've beaten a bad BP using only taunt-bisharp and tangela and Taunt bisharp isn't useless against other teams
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-133687229

 

[Chou Toshio]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-134272506

One replay of me beating the team-- but really, only because the team is a TINY bit Mega tar weak, and because I knew EXACTLY what he would do (literally did not predict, pretty much knew-- I made flawless moves every turn knowing what my opponent would do, and still almost lost). But if the team were only a SLIGHTLY bit different, and if I hadn't already lost to it once already, winning would be basically impossible. :/

 

[Arhan]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-134272506

One replay of me beating the team-- but really, only because the team is a TINY bit Mega tar weak, and because I knew EXACTLY what he would do (literally did not predict, pretty much knew-- I made flawless moves every turn knowing what my opponent would do, and still almost lost). But if the team were only a SLIGHTLY bit different, and if I hadn't already lost to it once already, winning would be basically impossible. :/

Lolled at the end..Roarchomp ftw

 

[4everShaymin]

Lolled at the end..Roarchomp ftw

But it's basicly the answer to Baton Pass.
We only have to make phazing a viable solution for the problem by banning ingrain.
The rest is just about prediction.
Slap a roar/whirlwind/dragontail on something and you can use your opponents setup process to your advantage
by setting up yourself and phazing the enemy out.

 

[Emmy2]

(since we're now sharing replays) I beat someone copying the new BP with a stall team:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-134272297

Granted, I'd expect Denisss to make better plays than this guy. This more or less proves my point that it's more about the players than the team.