Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II [CLOSED FOR DLC]

[furyofyuriy]

I distinctively remember last tera test, especially towards the end, arguments were made that tera was fine in UU and more manageable, the ban/restriction on tera for OU equally affects the tiers below it, resulting in those tiers getting involved to either swing a vote or post their thoughts on a tier they otherwise do not participate in.

I know the obvious answer is going to be this is primarily for OU and we can't stop lower tiers from influencing a vote even if the priorities aren't faithful to OU, but it makes me wonder if tera needs to be special cased as an OU isolated intervention where tiers can act independently or we rip the bandaid off and say lower tier consideration is moderated and not of any value. I still show support to the lower tiers that something in PR needs to be discussed there on policy updating how major mechanics transfer between tiers, similar to how uber's can test tera themselves but the result has no impact on OU and below.

I believe I'm the one that made the point about how much more manageable tera is in lower tiers and how a ban in OU would cause a ripple effect into lower tiers, so I would like to add to this.

I personally say no ban, but if restrictions must be made, then tera preview should suffice. I won't rehash more common arguments, but want to point out something. Even if Tera never existed to begin with, gen 9 would still be the most power crept generation to date. As others have stated, there were only 2 mons that were outright banned because of Tera, and arguably Espartha as well. Every other new mon banned was done so not because of Tera, but because of their stats, moves, and abilities. This tells me, especially with the state of lower tiers, that the problem isn't the mechanic but the mons in the tier.

Simply put, there are mons that are now UU that simply shouldn't be there. I'm not some salty Garchomp or Greninja fanboy, I'm just stating the obvious. The upper echelon of OU mons are simply so overbearing that they are forcing strong mons into lower tiers. And while I am personally fine with that, I find it hard to say "tera is broken plz ban" when lower tiers aren't as badly effected as OU. Tera is in many ways more akin to Z moves than it is mega's or Dynamax because it relies on the pokemon's innate stats and abilities to be a viable tera candidate in 90% of cases.

The reason Arceus is banned from every tier but Ubers is because it is broken in every other tier (no shit really Fury?), thus it cannot be allowed into said tier. But Tera isn't like that. Tera is much more balanced in lower tiers, just as Z Moves were. Look at Oricorio, a ZU shit mon in every gen until gen 9. Tera allowed the Pom-Pom variant to be viable in UU, but it's one of the only outliers. This is because it has access to Quiver Dance, making it a discount Volcarona. And yet, this is one of the only cases where Tera has propelled a meme mon into a solid respectable tier. And that's because of the tools it has access to. Yet despite this, it hasn't broken the barrier needed to enter OU properly. I find it hard to justify banning a mechanic from OU, which will affect every tier below it, when said mechanic is more balanced in those lower tiers than in OU. And that says more about the state of the mons currently residing within the tier.

I also want to note that I am not in favor of complex bans in general. Arguments like restricting specific tera's or banning tera blast don't hold weight for 2 reasons. Firstly because restrictions of Tera types to either STAB only or non-STAB will ONLY benefit the top percentage of mons that can do either with no issue. And Tera blast is honestly just a shit move that mons run because they have either no other choice due to lack of coverage or because they are such good set up sweepers they can afford to run it. Tera Ice Tera Blast is broken on Regielki and not Pincurchin because even though they both have powerful abilities that magnify their electric STAB, eleki has a base 200 Speed stat with the capability of being physical or special.

In short, I think Tera should be left as is. Selecting the appropriate Tera type in team builder is no less different than selecting the appropriate EV's or moves needed for that mon to function on the team you bring. Tera is only as good as the user is at using it (meaning the mon not the player). This is not a Dynamax situation where anything with a Flying or Fighting type move can now be a set up sweeper. If mons like Gambit, Volc, Eleki, and Dragonite are so over bearing due to the mechanic, then we should evaluate the mons that are using it in the tier, rather than the mechanic itself. While Tera is available to every mon, there are only a handful of mons that can be considered true Tera abusers.

PS: The reason I used Gambit, Volc, Eleki, and Dnite as examples is because there are "equivalents" in lower tiers that can pull of exactly what there best Tera sets can do, but worse.

 

[Eelstartega]

Good whatever the time is. This is my first post here in Smogon, but I had to give my opinion about this whole theme because this is the single most important discussion of all gen 9 Smogon, and even though I'm mostly here in this gen to play randos and VGC tourneys, with the ocassional UU, I think I can give a reasonable opinion and even if not it's in my rights.

As you might recall, the first Tera suspect test was filled with shameful behavior; lots of tantrum from both sides causing some bans, alongside misinformation also from both sides. It was full of lousy commentary to deaf ears almost like an obnoxious political discussion, which is likely responsible we still don't have regulations, because there were pro-preview genuinely scared about a ban and you can't deny its potential influence with a small margin like 1.5%. I beg all of you, Pro-ban, pro-action and pro-tera, to act properly here, because a bad image can be counterproductive and it's crucial to have a healthy discussion to reach a good middle ground even if it's disliked by you. The last thing we need is people trying to be activists in a discussion post.

Now, we have to question this: Why are we doing this to begin with? Why are proposing a suspect test to the main generational gimmick? If you say "Because tera is OP", you would be wrong, Smogon has allowed broken stuff to be legal in case it's not disruptive or restrictive to the meta; Just look at Great Tusk, a pokémon who is overpowered due to splashability (Yes, being too easy to fit in a team is a sign of being overpowered. Everyone who had played card games knows that), yet it doesn't cause issues due to having counterplay and most importantly, being kinda necessary for the tier's health.
The actual issue is that the current OU is way too volatile and restrictive, and after all these months is safe to say Terastalization is partially responsible for this and not just overpowered mons causing insane powercreep like in gen 5, considering what happened to Volcarona and Rapid-Strike Urshifu; before there would be an argument about the own creature being OP but. I've noticed this seems to be more of an issue on high elo than in low elo because said volatility is natural in environments with worse decision making and the low elo player of course, will use Flareon over Cinderace anyways, because they don't care about what smogon says are meta threats or terrible teambuilding... Sorry. The fact even they see there's some need of actions it means said issue is felt in all levels.

Now, there's the bigger question. What part of the terastalization is the issue? Because there's 2 potential ones: the lack of information and the mechanic per se. hate to be redundant, but we seriously need to stablish what Tera is and is not, specially in practice. Offensively it gives you a 3rd STAB or an adaptability boost, alongside the access to a coverage with STAB with "adaptable power", while defensively it improves your overall amount of resistances and allows you to tank stuff you could not before in case of doing a good predict. The tera type of the 6 mons is determined by what the user wants the pokemon to be before battle and the type changes before the turn starts.

What Tera currently is not:

• Random. The definition of random is luck-dependant, something no side of the equation will really know what it is. Since the user knows exactly what is getting it's not something who is actually random. Crits are random, accuracy is random, secondary effects are random, contact habilities can be random, speed ties are random but If you were able to see the screens of both players you would totally know how
• A 50/50. An actual 50/50 is basically what a switch or sucker punch mindgames, as well as something random with 50% chance of happening like double protect or speed ties. It implies 2 options for each side. Tera has way more options than just 1 type, and since not using tera is always an option it's way more polarizing.
• A comeback mechanic. Comeback mechanics are supposed to be gained towards the end of a round, not from the very first turn. While it has some properties seen in comeback mechanics, mostly the capability of uno-reverse the situation if used in the best moment possible, this seems to work mostly as a powerful counterplay tool, like an anti-fireball move, anti-air or a combo breaker.
• A balancing tool: As we have seen before, Tera is better used by great mons with average to bad typing. While it can help mediocre creatures to negate their weakness, it works better if used for already priviledged ones for the most part, creating a "rich gets richer" scenario due to opportunity cost.
• The sole responsible for the chaos: Paradox creatures, Palafin, Last respects, Shed tail, Spikes as TM, Chien-Pao and Chi-Yu would have existed without Tera, and Tera is not responsible for the tier not having Ferrothorn, Gliscor, Buzzwole and Clefable, nor is responsible for nerfing Toxapex, Slowbro, Blissey, Mew and Tornadus-T. No matter how you see it our defensive cores will be heavily nerfed regardless, so there's no way of making the tier less offensive without actually doing the smogon meme of banning everything but stall.

What tera currently is:

• Prone to Snowball: A well timed Tera can easily swing the turn of the battle due to how checks and counters work. A single turn had become more valuable over the years, to the point that previously inocuous mechanics like baton pass or arena trap had become problematic, and tera in many ocassions is 1 or 2 free turns.
• Unpredictable to an unhealthy degree: You genuinely don't know what the opponent could have. Is like movesets but a bit more drastic. Is not like you should expect all 18 types, that's like saying "What if gen 7 Garchomp had HP Ice?" but you should expect 5 or so in a lot of cases, on 6 pokémon, which means over 30 reasonable options ans there's a problem when given way too many options, where the game starts to feel that does not reward your knowledge nor has agency.
• Creative: Tera is a genuinely creative teambuilding option who opens lots of options with trade-offs and benefits. That's why people still like the mechanic even in case of breaking the game, because it's the first games since 2009 where teambuilding felt truly creative and not something kinda set in stone because of team preview.
• Incredibly versatile: Another reason people like this one is that, although is better used on offense in OU, there's no clear best usage, unlike any other mechanic introduced. Defensive tera is a realistic and oftentimes is the optimal play, which was not what happened with Z-Moves (Mostly better gems), Megas (Limited roster) and Dynamax (using it on defense was inefficient). That being said, that defense is mostly when it can be translated into offense like Garganacl, Skeledirge or Kingambit, but there's still genuine moments where said type is used to protect your creature and even moments were tera is unnecesary.
• Able to break the game: Just like Mega-Rayquaza, the act of having a super pokémon can be problematic at times. While most bans were because of them being OP to begin and would happen anyways, like Magearna, the offensive ruin pokémon, Flutter Mane and Palafin, there's some where that's clearly not the case, most notably Espathra, Regieleki, Volcarona and arguably Water Urshifu and Annihilape. That happens both because of the type change, the power boost and due to Tera Blast.

Now, does that mean The mechanic is unhealthy? Maybe, but we need investigation to go from just theorycrafting. We know Tera is a problem, but we don't know which part is problematic. This is the perfect opportunity to make A TWO STEP SUSPECT TEST, because the mechanic isn't cut and dry like other ones, there's realistic ways of nerfing it without removing it, similar to Sleep clause. Even if you're pro-ban I genuinely think you need to convince the other groups that their Ideas won't work, and is better to proceed slowly from no restriction to restricted to Ban. What I'm proposing is the following:

1. Try team preview and tera blast suspect. Those are the most popular ways of restrictions, and for good reason. There's a reason why the proposal of tera team preview is so popular, because both GameFreak kinda implemented it and because it might be a legit solution to most of the issues. We also know tera blast is responsible for the Espathra, Regieleki and Volcarona bans, because tera blast is reminiscent of the meta-warp hidden power did but on steroids due to 120/160 BP over the 60/90 of before. The plan would require to enable tera preview during the suspect, and afterwards do the vote if we want A) No changes, B) Tera preview, C)Tera blast ban, and D) Both C and B. While the act of suspect testing two things at the same time (Tera blast and tera preview) might seem odd at first, the fact it's the same mechanic makes more feasible to proceed and again, tera has a lot of moving strings on their power. We also saw on the other suspect test that other proposals would not work, be counterproductive or be too arbitrary.
2. Try to suspect test the action of terastalizing. If everything else fails, we have no other option but banning the whole thing, which should be decided if necessary after 6-8 weeks of whatever the previous format was, unless A was the mayority, which I seriously doubt It would be considering what happened before. That's a simple cut and dry "Ban/No ban" vote which would demand regular suspect test rules. If a supermayority wins the ban, then Tera is removed for an undefined period of time.

And that's what I wanted to say. In general, Terastalization is a very powerful mechanic, around the level of some megas and Z-Moves, maybe a bit stronger, and we as community have to do two things about it: Deciding what's the best action moving forward, and most importantly, try to reach an agreement we can more or less be happy about, even if you don't think that way because that's how debates work. I for my part would both ban tera blast and put team preview, but that's about it, because again, lots of gen 9 issues are not only from their gimmick, but also the new roster and arguably even our way of seeing the game, and I want genuine proofs that those restrictions are not enough before going for the banwagon smogon is infamous for. Sorry for going long but I really felt the need of saying all of this.

PS: How do you add gifs and text below?

 

[Loginator]

Articuno-Galar becomes complete trash without Tera Blast.

A Tera Blast ban is probably the best solution but it does make me sad that a few mons are getting severely cut in viability because of the lack of Tera Blast such as Revavaroom, Frosmoth, Articuno-G as you said, and Magnezone (not all OU I know). No matter what actions we take the meta will be harmed in some aspect. I think it’s wrong to mention Articuno-G when talking about the meta improving.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Smogon has allowed broken stuff to be legal in case it's not disruptive or restrictive to the meta; Just look at Great Tusk,

Stopped reading right here. Being 1 of maybe 3 usable Pokémon to learn Rapid Spin is not broken. Absolutely nothing Great Tusk does is broken, its job is keeping other potentially broken things, Spikes, Kingambit, Gholdengo, and more in check. Great Tusk's presence in this metagame actively fixes problems, not creates them. Calling it "broken" for being extremely useful completely tanked your credibility on determining what is and isn't a healthy presence in the metagame

 

[Eelstartega]

Stopped reading right here. Being 1 of maybe 3 usable Pokémon to learn Rapid Spin is not broken. Absolutely nothing Great Tusk does is broken, its job is keeping other potentially broken things, Spikes, Kingambit, Gholdengo, and more in check. Great Tusk's presence in this metagame actively fixes problems, not creates them. Calling it "broken" for being extremely useful completely tanked your credibility on determining what is and isn't a healthy presence in the metagame

And of course you neglected the rest of why I think it's OP (Card game logic of being too easy to splash. You cannot tell me seriously that an 80+% tournament presence isn't incredibly meta warping) and why I said that regardless of that status, it is a bad idea to ban Great Tusk because it is not opressive to go against and is kinda necessary for the tier's health...

Now that I think about it, this is a very important point to, well, point out. Smogon does not ban by power levels, but by how unfair/opressive it is to play against. How else would you explain bans to objectively weak strats like evasion or quick claw? Because they have unfair patterns, otherwise those moves and items are kinda useless and the mere act on those makes us look like crybabies. The best example of this has to be Landorus, because by all metrics Landorus-T is more powerful than its Incarnate form; It's better in Ubers, Monotype and VGC when both are allowed after all. Yet Incarnate is banned while Therian is not. Why? Because Incarnate's play patterns are opressive for a lot of teams due to being a fast mixed wallbreaker, while Therian is mostly a normal tank who does what you would expect from it, more efficient I might add, but still a fairer pokémon to face.

And that's quite important in this discussion. We need to evaluate not so much about on power of the mechanic because that's a pointless rabbit hole to go into, but rather evaluate how unfair Tera is and if there's ways of fixing it or not. That's the biggest question we need an answer to, "IS TERA UNFAIR?" Imo I think Tera IS unfair yet it could be fixed with restrictions, but i've been wrong in the past like with Orthworm.

PS: How do you put likes and stuff like that...? Nvm, I discovered how.

 

[Solar Power]

I personally don't think Tera Preview is a good idea. In fact, I think it might actually be a bad idea that could make the meta worse.

(1) Knowing what something is going to Tera into (especially offensive Teras) does not change the counterplay to that mon, or provide counterplay to that mon that doesn't already exist. For example, knowing that Kingambit is going to Tera Dark doesn't change the fact that it can cook the entire tier with Tera Dark Sucker Punch. Or, to use an older meta example: knowing that Chien-Pao is going to Tera Dark and click Crunch doesn't give you any new information or any counterplay. Even your Dondozo is still getting 2hko'd. I think this goes for every offensive mon that uses STAB Tera. Tera Water Walking Wake Hydro Steam is obvious as soon as you see a sun team. Seeing it on preview doesn't change anything.

(2) Tera Preview inherently favours the offensive use of Tera, increasing the power level of the tier and leading to more repetitive interactions. Following on from the first point, implementing Tera Preview would disproportionately benefit the use of STAB Tera over defensive/set-up Tera's. The primary reason to run a Tera type that is fundamentally different from your mon's original type is to buy a free turn or two by flipping a match-up. This only works if there is a genuine surprise factor. If you can see all of your opponent's Teras at preview (and they see all of yours), there is no surprise factor. The only surprise becomes *when* you Tera. However, this is already pretty obvious. This is the *skill element* of Tera. If you're familiar with the tier and play it at least semi-often, you should be comfortable with the pacing of games and be able to figure out when someone is likely to Tera. Giving away information of *what* they'll Tera to at preview disincentivizes players to use creative Tera's, and instead incentivizes players to use Tera's that don't rely on surprise in order to get the most bang for their buck.

(3) Tera Preview is too close to open Team Sheets for me. Seeing a mon's Tera type usually exposes what type of mon it is. Seeing Tera Dark on Valiant means it's almost certainly SD + Knock Off booster energy. Seeing Fairy means its Specs. To me, the tier loses a lot of its fun if I know what moves my opponent is clicking every time. I'd like to figure out from team structure and the moves I see it use what its full set will be. If I see a Tera Ghost Dragapult, and it goes for Draco, I know its Specs. If it goes for DD, I know it's Tera Blast Ghost. I don't like having that much information. It feels like being spoonfed.

(4) Quick Replay to show what I'm talking about (excuse the fact it's a NatDex replay - the mons involved are SV OU mons and I'm only using it to show a specific two-turn interaction that I won without Tera Preview but would likely lose with Tera Preview.) I'm specifically citing to turns 3 and 4 of this game:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1904275735-l5kaaye687inm19akmkwx237f8mc7xhpw

As you can see, my opponent is using a pretty standard rain team. I see Pelipper, Zapdos, Basculegion, and I immediately know what kind of team this is. I know Basculegion is clicking Tera Water Wave Crash the first time it comes in. Seeing Tera Water on team preview gives me absolutely no information. I learn nothing that I didn't already know. It provides no additional counterplay.

My opponent, however, likely couldn't tell me what any of my Tera types are from just looking at my team. Tera Preview, therefore, gives my opponent significantly more information than it gave me. It therefore incentivizes the use of standard form teams that rely on power, not surprise.

On turn 3, Basculegion comes in. I know it's clicking Tera Water Wave Crash. I don't need team preview to know that. So I sac my Iron Treads since it's useless in this matchup, and bring in my Moltres on turn 4. If Tera Preview were in place, my opponent would see that my Moltres is Tera Dragon, and switch out. He would know that since I'm bringing it in, and I'm Tera Dragon, I'll use it on that turn. However, since he doesn't know that, he stays in and clicks Wave Crash again. I Tera, tank the hit, and KO with Hurricane. I therefore win that interaction, and go on to win the game, since I've eliminated his primary breaker.

I can only win this interaction without Tera Preview. This is a perfect example of why people don't want Tera banned at all, and why many people, myself included, don't want it restricted. It provides new counterplay to offensive mons that would otherwise force players into repetitive team structures. With Tera Preview, this Phys Def Moltres set becomes much less viable and it forces me to use a more conventional rain check like Water Absorb Clodsire or Phys Def Toxapex.

As a final thought, think of who the top 5 or so mons in the tier currently are. Do they fundamentally change with Tera Preview? Does the hierarchy of the tier change in any way? No! It'll still be Gambit, Valiant, Dragapult, Tusk, Bax etc. All that will change, is that the *counterplay* to these mons will be more difficult. Players will no longer be able to flip these match-ups with a surprise Tera. Anti-Meta teams will lose viability. The already established elite offensive mons will continue to dominate the tier. I think this will severely limit counterplay and team-building. I know it's a semi-unpopular opinion on here, but unrestricted Tera is probably my favourite thing about Gen 9. It's what drives me to come up with teams and experiment with new mons. I know from experience that I lose interest very quickly in repetitive meta's and I'd probably be one of the players who would likely lose interest if Tera were restricted.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

For example, knowing that Kingambit is going to Tera Dark doesn't change the fact that it can cook the entire tier with Tera Dark Sucker Punch.

but knowing that it isn't going to tera fire lets you wisp it, and knowing that it isn't going to tera fairy or ghost or flying lets you more confidently click a fighting move. the real advantage of tera preview isn't that you know what tera type your opponent is, it's that you know what they aren't

 

[Solar Power]

but knowing that it isn't going to tera fire lets you wisp it, and knowing that it isn't going to tera fairy or ghost or flying lets you more confidently click a fighting move. the real advantage of tera preview isn't that you know what tera type your opponent is, it's that you know what they aren't

That's true. But the Gambit player knows that as well. They likely won't be staying in on a Fighting move anyway, so that knowledge cuts both ways. Which means it doesn't fundamentally change that Gambit is the element here that feels the most broken, not Tera.

As an additional point on Gambit, there honestly isn't as much of a practical difference between a burned Tera Dark Kingambit, and an unburned Tera Fire Kingambit:

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Fire Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 442-522 (137.6 - 162.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs.
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord burned 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 295-348 (91.9 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Either way, it can just absolutely cook reasonably bulky offensive mons with a Priority move after one turn of set-up. Tera Preview makes it likely that it won't get that free turn via a surprise Tera, but it can still get that free turn a dozen other ways. That's why I think Tera Preview isn't going to do anything to make it feel less broken.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

That's true. But the Gambit player knows that as well. They likely won't be staying in on a Fighting move anyway, so that knowledge cuts both ways. Which means it doesn't fundamentally change that Gambit is the element here that feels the most broken, not Tera.

As an additional point on Gambit, there honestly isn't as much of a practical difference between a burned Tera Dark Kingambit, and an unburned Tera Fire Kingambit:

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Fire Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 442-522 (137.6 - 162.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs.
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord burned 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 295-348 (91.9 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Either way, it can just absolutely cook reasonably bulky offensive mons with a Priority move after one turn of set-up. Tera Preview makes it likely that it won't get that free turn via a surprise Tera, but it can still get that free turn a dozen other ways. That's why I think Tera Preview isn't going to do anything to make it feel less broken.

honestly, using kingambit as an example is kind of disingenuous because it's broken irrespective of tera

 

[Moyashi]

honestly, using kingambit as an example is kind of disingenuous because it's broken irrespective of tera

It isn't broken without tera. Without tera, Gambit can't just use its best (and limited) checks as set up fodder, or just using tera to amp up its power even further. The things that should check it, actually would check it without considering tera.

 

[Avira]

Kingambit would be fair and balanced without Tera. It's clearly Tera giving it free turns through the ability to reverse its counterplay that makes it overwhelming to deal with. It's Tera that's broken rather than Kingambit.

 

[altostrato]

I had an idea (don’t know if it has been duscussed before) but what if the opponent had to tell you when they tera-d. Let’s say, only during the first 20 seconds of a turn, you can press the tera button and the action is not reversible. Then, it will tell your opponent that you will tera and to what tera type. Your opponent will then get their turn and time refunded to make another move. Some benefits of this would be denying defensive 50/50s which would happen with team preview and denying powerful tera sweepers a free turn to tera into a resist.

However, this doesn’t prevent offensive 50/50s (If your opponent tera ice Regieleki, do you go into Great Tusk or Dondozo?), and would be hard to implement What are your thoughts?

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I had an idea (don’t know if it has been duscussed before) but what if the opponent had to tell you when they tera-d. Let’s say, only during the first 20 seconds of a turn, you can press the tera button and the action is not reversible. Then, it will tell your opponent that you will tera and to what tera type. Your opponent will then get their turn and time refunded to make another move. Some benefits of this would be denying defensive 50/50s which would happen with team preview and denying powerful tera sweepers a free turn to tera into a resist.

However, this doesn’t prevent offensive 50/50s (If your opponent tera ice Regieleki, do you go into Great Tusk or Dondozo?), and would be hard to implement What are your thoughts?

that might be neat, but it's definitely too much work to implement, especially if we're fucking around with the timer. we only want simple solutions here. remember that whatever solution we choose has to be coded, and our coders work for free, so let's try to make it easy on them

 

[veti]

clearly Tera giving it free turns through the ability to reverse its counterplay

Tera allows every pokemon to reverse it's counterplay, and yet it is only a small group of Pokemon that are broken with it. The majority of offensive pokemon (and every defensive mon in OU) are not able to abuse tera to the extent of pokemon like Kingambit, Regieleki and Volcarona. Those few pokemon are the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Solar Power]

honestly, using kingambit as an example is kind of disingenuous because it's broken irrespective of tera

I'm not trying to be! Mostly trying to draw attention to the fact that I feel like Kingambit is the most overwhelming presence in the Meta right now, and I don't think changing the way Tera works would really impact that. To me, the Meta *feels the way it does* right now because of the power creep of the offensive mons, rather than knowing what something is Tera-ing to or isn't Tera-ing to. I feel like the S tier mons are simultaneously breaking the tier and holding it together on a broken checks broken vibe. Tera is just throwing a combustible element into an unstable mix. I don't think taking Tera out of the equation or fundamentally changing the way it works is going to fix that instability.

 

[Avira]

Tera allows every pokemon to reverse it's counterplay, and yet it is only a small group of Pokemon that are broken with it. The majority of offensive pokemon (and every defensive mon in OU) are not able to abuse tera to the extent of pokemon like Kingambit, Regieleki and Volcarona. Those few pokemon are the exception rather than the rule.

The reason no defensive Pokemon in OU is able to abuse Tera to the extent that Espathra, Regieleki, Volcarona, and Kingambit can is that Terastal is a mechanic that inherently favours offensive over defensive uses. That is no argument to keep Terastal.

In a fully unrestricted Tera meta, once Kingambit goes, there will be a cascade of bans as Dragapult becomes overwhelming, then Gholdengo, and then Iron Valiant with possibly Baxcalibur, Enamorus-Incarnate, Zamazenta-Hero, and Sneasler following that. The list of banned Pokemon will grow significantly since Kingambit, to a large extent, is holding the metagame together while also being broken in this Tera meta.

 

[Xufactor]

Replying to CrashinBoomBang's post in https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-terastallization-tiering-discussion-part-ii.3724521/, mainly "How much everyone preferring the other side sucks at this game (which is especially funny when the no-action side has people like Vertex, Nat, NJNP and blunder - all of which are really good at Gen 9 in their own right, some of the best), how much of an idiot you have to be to not see how broken Tera is, and some guy in the OU thread pushing his opinion of "we all know unrestricted Tera is broken, everyone should realize we need at least team preview" down my throat."

While I am not going to say that anyone who supports tera being legal is an idiot, I would like to say that it favors players who like to and excel at going for hard reads rather than general competitiveness. I know that NJNP has built teams, but the only player in this list I have seen play and played is blunder. Not discounting blunder's skill, but he consistently goes for aggressive plays and refuses to lose momentum into a counter. He has trouble dealing with aggressive stay-ins that counter his own aggressive plays.

More on his post, I think the 50-50s that tera causes are bad for the game. It causes a lot of variance for something as simple as type resistance. Most aspects of deterministic guessing, such as will Dragault be specs and go for Draco, Shadow Ball, or u-turn, or will it be banded, is "varied." One turn, you might be dealing with the options of Tank, Anti-air, Bomber, which have a triangle in what they beat, and another turn you might be dealing with, Recon, Missiles, and Tank, which may or may not be a triangle. Understanding the different aspects of each turn gives you an advantage and helps offset the "luck-based" guessing game of each turn. Tera is more similar to adding basic RPS and 50-50s to each turn (obviously not completely as simple since type matchups need to be memorized).

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

i don't play other tiers much, so i'd like to ask those of you who do: in lower tiers, are there a lot of mons that are oppressive or broken right now?

because if there aren't, and lower tiers are relatively stable and competitive, it means that tera is not a universally broken mechanic and what's going on here is just a bunch of broken-checking-broken bullshit that should stop after another wave or two of bans.

but if the lower tiers are unstable and crazy (outside of the usual tier shifts), that might be a sign that something else is at play. it might not even be tera that's at fault because the home drop is still recent enough that things are still kinda shaky, but i would probably give tera a bit more of a look in that scenario

 

[Rootb]

The reason no defensive Pokemon in OU is able to abuse Tera to the extent that Espathra, Regieleki, Volcarona, and Kingambit can is that Terastal is a mechanic that inherently favours offensive over defensive uses. That is no argument to keep Terastal.

In a fully unrestricted Tera meta, once Kingambit goes, there will be a cascade of bans as Dragapult becomes overwhelming, then Gholdengo, and then Iron Valiant with possibly Baxcalibur, Enamorus-Incarnate, Zamazenta-Hero, and Sneasler following that. The list of banned Pokemon will grow significantly since Kingambit, to a large extent, is holding the metagame together while also being broken in this Tera meta.

To keep this not a shitty one-liner, most of the good users of Tera in WCOP are using it to hold their own. Even Kingambit's most common Tera, Flying, is to gain a defensive advantage on a turn-by-turn basis. As is its second (Fairy). The reason why Kingambit is such a frequent user of Tera, however, is that it is bulky. It's crowding out both offensive and defensive uses of Tera because:

A) You should strongly consider having a Kingambit on your team, and
B) If you do, it'll be either your best or second-best user of Tera

Given that, why would you go into the builder looking for other tera threats? Unless you're running Garg, you might as well stop there, and treat it like your Mega. Thre's not a compelling reason to ignore Plan Kingambit in their favor, and -- hey. Even if you do, you're going to be in a position where it might still be better to Tera your Kingambit than it would have been to go with plan A!

God did not intend for Sucker Punch to come off of Base 200+ attack.

 

[Avira]

Preserving Terastal also violates Smogon's tiering philosophy, which is to ban as few things as possible. In a meta with Tera, there is without a doubt more things that need to be banned than in a Teraless meta. I see keeping Tera as blatantly disregarding established precedent just to keep a gimmick that is not even the entire reason why Gen 9 is different than Gen 8. Because those who think Gen 9 will be like Gen 8 without Tera just somehow fail to understand that Gen 9 has reduced recovery move PP, Scald distribution almost entirely gone, limited Defog distribution, wide distribution of Spikes, Gholdengo, and significant power creep in mons such as Kingambit, Baxcalibur, many of the Hisui mons, the Paradox mons and Zamazenta-Hero. All of these things contribute to a more offensive meta, and the meta will not even remotely be dominated by fat with Tera gone.

This is not to say that a meta without Terastal would not have bans at all, which would be untrue, but there would definitely be fewer bans although some Pokemon will have less counterplay in a Teraless meta, and they would need to get banned.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Preserving Terastal also violates Smogon's tiering philosophy, which is to ban as few things as possible.

is that actually part of tiering philosophy or is it just something we tend to do for efficiency's sake? reading through the tiering policy, i don't see anywhere that it says minimizing the number of bans is a priority

 

[Eelstartega]

Preserving Terastal also violates Smogon's tiering philosophy, which is to ban as few things as possible. In a meta with Tera, there is without a doubt more things that need to be banned than in a Teraless meta.

Which also explains stuff like Baton pass being banned and sleep clauses... Wait, what? Yeah, Smogon usually prefers cut and dry bans to be understandable for everyone, but there's nothing fancy being proposed here that has not been done before. Smogon has banned moves when seen problematic, and has even imposed weird, somewhat arbitrary clauses like Sleep.
Now, Why are those being proposed? Simple, Because Tera is the single most complex generational gimmick introduced to date. There's just a lot of moving strings who makes the approach to reduce both power and unfair elements varied.

While I can see an argument of making things too complex in the case of Baton Pass, Rage Fist or Dire Claw, the Solutions proposed for Tera are not something that difficult to understand, is just that players know the potential tera the opponent could have (During gameplay, not teambuilding) and to ban a somewhat troublesome move. Who knows? Maybe a reduced power Tera is fair enough to stay, although don't take my words like a fact, I'm not interested in playing Great Tusk land after all. You might think ban is the best solution to not waste time, but everyone here should try to put actual points that apply to this specific case.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

QUOTE="Eelstartega, post: 9703862, member: 642629"]
And of course you neglected the rest of why I think it's OP (Card game logic of being too easy to splash. You cannot tell me seriously that an 80+% tournament presence isn't incredibly meta warping) and why I said that regardless of that status, it is a bad idea to ban Great Tusk because it is not opressive to go against and is kinda necessary for the tier's health...
[/QUOTE]

You said yourself you're not very familiar with the tier. The tier leader of OU, Finchinator, actually made a whole YouTube video about how wrong the position you're espousing, "high usage = meta warping = broken", is: High Usage vs Brokenness: The Great Tusk and Landorus Phenomenon

Also, define "meta warping", like the entire top 10 of OU at LEAST are "meta warping" because they're very common and very good.

furthermore, by your logic, Terastalization is without a doubt broken, because it's used in almost every single game by both teams

By the way, i want to echo a post in the policy review thread that I think is really important. There is no such thing as a "generation gimmick" or "generational core mechanic." It's completely subjective, not official, and there's literally nothing special about it. In fact I'd like to up the ante and say if Tera is a so called "generational mechanic" then Wonder Launcher from Gen 5 is, how come allowing it wasn't even a question back then? Many new things are added each generation who decides what the "core mechanic" is? The idea of new mechanics disappearing in further generations wasn't even a thing until gen 8. Even if these so called "core mechanics" were a real thing, why would they be treated differently from any other aspect of the game that was broken and in need of tiering action? In fact historically these so called "generational gimmicks" have not been treated differently given that Wonder Launcher, Dynamax, several mega stones, and at least one Z crystal all have been banned. In fact, by this logic, restricting Tera would be more in line with historical precedent than leaving it unrestricted. Broken Pokémon, items, moves, abilities, and mechanics are all fair game for tiering action.

 

[furyofyuriy]

i don't play other tiers much, so i'd like to ask those of you who do: in lower tiers, are there a lot of mons that are oppressive or broken right now?

because if there aren't, and lower tiers are relatively stable and competitive, it means that tera is not a universally broken mechanic and what's going on here is just a bunch of broken-checking-broken bullshit that should stop after another wave or two of bans.

but if the lower tiers are unstable and crazy (outside of the usual tier shifts), that might be a sign that something else is at play. it might not even be tera that's at fault because the home drop is still recent enough that things are still kinda shaky, but i would probably give tera a bit more of a look in that scenario

I would say there are not broken or oppressive, however UU has been a slightly hectic since a bunch of former OU mons dropped down, however it feels like its starting to stabilize. As I highlighted in my previous post on this thread, there are far few outliers. Oricorio Pom-Pom is one such because Tera interacts with revelation dance uniquely AND it's one of the best users of Quiver Dance in the current state of the meta game. Sandy Shocks is arguably the best mon in UU right now.

As for the lower Tiers, once again the arguable best Tera users either have Unique Interactions with Tera or have some form of set up move that propells them higher. Pu it's Lilligant Unovan form because, like Oricorio, it has Quiver Dance. But it's move pool is so shit it can actually use Tera Blast.

NU: I would say Scyther and Elecktross are on the same footing for different reasons. Scyther for it's hyper offensive SD + Priority and how Tera Works with Technician. Electross has two sets it runs that are either Coil set up or AV, but thanks to Levitate it isn't Tera dependent, it's just good because it has only resistances or neutral hits against it.

RU: I admittedly don't play this tier much so I can't say much.

But the bottom line is that there really isn't anything outlandish. Bar Oricorio's jump from ZU of gen 7 to UU in gen 9, all the older mons are pretty much settling in tiers they already where in or one above due to dexit. If anything is causing disarray its the drop of former OU mons into UU or a handful of screen users.

Preserving Terastal also violates Smogon's tiering philosophy, which is to ban as few things as possible. In a meta with Tera, there is without a doubt more things that need to be banned than in a Teraless meta.

Well that's just...inaccurate. Smogon's tiering philosophy is to mitigate RNG elements and reserve bans for anything that is either uncompetitive or so outlandishly powerful for a tier it needs to be removed. While in the grand scheme of things there are relatively few aspects of the game that are outright banned, tiers are functionally lots of little bans that create new tiers. Great Tusk is in Ou because of it's high usage but also for it being to overwhelming for every tier below it, functionally making it banned in UU and below.

As for the argument regarding Tera causing more banned mons, there have been 2 (arguably 3) mons that were banned due to Tera. That's 3 out of 11 mons banned to Ubers, not counting Last Respects and Shed Tail mons. And really, since Volc was more of a panic ban for the sake of tournament play, only Regieleki was a mon truley banned for it's outrageous use of Tera ice Tera Blast. Magearna and Urshifu got new moves that broke them (and Ursihfu got an insane new item), Bundle and Flutter Mane hit everything for neutral and were min maxxed to hell, the two banned Treasure of Ruin were super wall breakers, and Palafin was just outright stupid.

If ANYTHING was shocking and should be a testament to the current state of OU, it's that Zamazenta hero made a historic DROP into the tier from Ubers and survived a suspect test despite being BUFFED this gen (not counting the dauntless shield nerf which admittedly was pretty strong). Let's be honest with ourselves, the only reason Eleki wasn't banned to Ubers in gen 8 ( it did have niche there btw) was because of it's terrible coverage. There will always be a handful of mons that make any mechanic added to the game overpowering on them, but the fact that only 2 were banned to ubers due to this fact tells me that the mechanic is far less of a problem than the mons allowed in OU.

 

[Moyashi]

You cannot tell me seriously that an 80+% tournament presence isn't incredibly meta warping)

Tusk is seeing such astronomical usage because thanks to asinine design decisions from Gamefreak, we were left with a single splashable option for hazard removal. Tusk itself? It's not offensively oppressive, not defensively unbreakable. It's simply top class in its role compression that provides key utility in spin. It is meta defining because of its utility and general presence but not some mega warping mon. There are mons in the top 10 of the tier who are far more warping.

You could argue the high usage is a symptom of a larger problem, but it sure ain't Tusk.

The best example of this has to be Landorus, because by all metrics Landorus-T is more powerful than its Incarnate form; It's better in Ubers, Monotype and VGC when both are allowed after all. Yet Incarnate is banned while Therian is not. Why? Because Incarnate's play patterns are opressive for a lot of teams due to being a fast mixed wallbreaker, while Therian is mostly a normal tank who does what you would expect from it, more efficient I might add, but still a fairer pokémon to face.

This is a very shallow surface level view of how these Pokemon are. LandorusT is not the more powerful form of the two. And it doing better in other unrelated formats also doesn't mean anything. It's meta dependant in many cases.