Not that I agree with this suggestion but wouldn't held Poké Balls fulfill the description you are looking for?
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Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II [CLOSED FOR DLC]
- Thread starter Finchinator
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unfortunately, no. pokeballs can still be tricked and knocked off, just not flung. for this to mimic things like mega evolution and z-moves, we'd need something that can't be removed under any circumstances.
i personally don't support the "hold this item to tera" suggestion either, even if there were a viable item candidate; i just think that discounting it as a "joke suggestion" is treating it too harshly. in fact, i think it would work, but it just feels too much like the premise for an om. it's like ultimate z or mix and mega but backwards
This means derailing, it's since page 1 of this thread we keep repeating these kind of clauses of balancing a pokemon or a mechanic by doing weird things like being forced to have a pokeball as item will NEVER HAPPEN. And with "we" i include also staff/ou council members. It never happened in any single tier, not even past gens to balance something in this way. If a pokemon is too strong, is banned. If the problem is a move with an insane distribution (like baton pass) the move is banned. If the item is uncompetive or too strong is banned.
Every time the discussion goes for another 2 pages of flooding. Look at tera for what it is, a mechanic that make u change type and give a 80 bp move of that typing. The item slot has NOTHING to do with this. U can't make tera more balanced by banning or restricting an item.
and again, this is a thread about tera, not about your issues with other smogon members
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Yeah, powerlevel is definitely related to tera and the meta. Think of pokemon like
1) tera dragon glaive rush baxcalibur
2) tera dark blackglasses sucker punch/kowtow cleave kingambit
3) tera fighting choice band close combat zamazenta
4) Tera water proto spa/speed choice specs hydro steam Walking Wake in the sun
All of these pokemon are much stronger than they would be in a metagame without tera, much stronger purely thanks to tera. All of these pokemon put a big strain on teambuilding, and all of these are viable and dangerous threats, who have great niches in the meta due to tera making them nukes.
The power level is likely to go down if tera is banned, although some pokemon like Walking Wake and Baxcalibur will still be problematic imo.
I think Tera could theoretically be balanced in a very limited and tightly managed pool of pokemon. OU will never be that, and thus tera will imo never be balanced in practice.
EDIT: To reply to the quoted response quickly (too short to warrant a separate post)
Nah, it's pretty arbitrary. I couldn't draw a hard line in the sand and tell you exactly why I drew it there.
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this really shouldn't factor into the conversation too heavily. if everyone said "but it was never done like this in the past" to everything, no progress would ever be made
it's not an issue with other smogon members, i stole a crow skull from a witch and it turns out it was cursed so now people's first instinct is to dislike me
Oh I'm curious, would you have a certain threshold of how many pokemon would be broken by tera that would justify just banning them instead of the mechanic? Comparing it to how many mons you think are actually broken/potentially broken once the first wave of bans happen
You can ignore the questions if you prefer btw. I just like discussion but I know it may just feel redundant/annoying so no pressure
i do think this concept could be interesting as an om. i vaguely remember someone floating the idea, i'm not sure whether it was a joke or not, of "only pokemon from uu and below can tera". now, this would absolutely not work in a usage-based tier. aside from it being arbitrary and not based on anything, it would cause tera-reliant ou mons to drop to uu and therefore become able to tera and thus get enough ou usage to rise back into the tier, upon which they'd lose tera and fall back down and etc etc etc. a horrible vicious cycle, like the waltz that seismitoad and rotom-wash danced around each other back in gen 7. but as an om, i think that might be cool
After gathering my thoughts, here's what I think about Terastallization in the current metagame.
For starters, as someone who regularly plays the tier, I consider Gen 9 defined by Terastallization, it is what makes it the way it is and not Gen 8 or Gen 7 or whatever generation regardless of the pool of Pokemons available. The tier is meant to be played with the mechanic. At least for me it's kinda like making pizza without cheese if that makes sense. Terastallization is a healthy mechanic, unlike Dynamax which some tried to compare with it. Listen, Dynamax was a stupid uncompetitive cheesy mechanic that could make almost any Pokemon broken or unhealthy. That's why it was banned. Terastallization, on the other hand, doesn't turn any Pokemon into the most broken thing ever, in fact, it is a healthy mechanic that gives a niche to certain Pokemons that would otherwise not be usable in the higher tiers whether that'd be because of their typing or movepool. That's why I think we should never even consider outright banning it.
The issue people seem to complain about is always having to guess your opponent's Tera typing and some Pokemons being hard to deal with because of the mechanic (Kingambit, Baxcalibur and Iron Valiant). I feel like revealing Tera typing at preview would resolve the issue (at least it would eliminate the guesswork part).
Also some people have brought up the point that Terastallization pushes certain Pokemons (mainly Kingambit) over the edge and suggest restraining them by not allowing them to use the mechanic. Again, Gen 9 OU is meant to be played with Terastallization. We must take it into consideration. Any Pokemon that is too strong for the tier whether with or without Tera should go to Ubers. That's what suspect tests are for. Reflecting on Biannual Run's post, if we go by the complex ban approach, we'll need to suspect every Pokemon and set restrictions for those that are unhealthy. It'll take forever for the tier to reach stability. What are we trying to do ? Is the Pokemon a unhealthy presence, or rather is the mechanic problematic ? We need to identify the problem first, which I very clearly don't think is the mechanic, and take action accordingly.
TLDR :
Terastallization is a healthy mechanic that defines Gen 9 OU as a metagame. Therefore, it should not be outright banned, but rather revealed at team preview which would eliminate the guesswork. Any Pokemon that is too strong with or without it deserves a ban.
For starters, as someone who regularly plays the tier, I consider Gen 9 defined by Terastallization, it is what makes it the way it is and not Gen 8 or Gen 7 or whatever generation regardless of the pool of Pokemons available. The tier is meant to be played with the mechanic. At least for me it's kinda like making pizza without cheese if that makes sense. Terastallization is a healthy mechanic, unlike Dynamax which some tried to compare with it. Listen, Dynamax was a stupid uncompetitive cheesy mechanic that could make almost any Pokemon broken or unhealthy. That's why it was banned. Terastallization, on the other hand, doesn't turn any Pokemon into the most broken thing ever, in fact, it is a healthy mechanic that gives a niche to certain Pokemons that would otherwise not be usable in the higher tiers whether that'd be because of their typing or movepool. That's why I think we should never even consider outright banning it.
The issue people seem to complain about is always having to guess your opponent's Tera typing and some Pokemons being hard to deal with because of the mechanic (Kingambit, Baxcalibur and Iron Valiant). I feel like revealing Tera typing at preview would resolve the issue (at least it would eliminate the guesswork part).
Also some people have brought up the point that Terastallization pushes certain Pokemons (mainly Kingambit) over the edge and suggest restraining them by not allowing them to use the mechanic. Again, Gen 9 OU is meant to be played with Terastallization. We must take it into consideration. Any Pokemon that is too strong for the tier whether with or without Tera should go to Ubers. That's what suspect tests are for. Reflecting on Biannual Run's post, if we go by the complex ban approach, we'll need to suspect every Pokemon and set restrictions for those that are unhealthy. It'll take forever for the tier to reach stability. What are we trying to do ? Is the Pokemon a unhealthy presence, or rather is the mechanic problematic ? We need to identify the problem first, which I very clearly don't think is the mechanic, and take action accordingly.
TLDR :
Terastallization is a healthy mechanic that defines Gen 9 OU as a metagame. Therefore, it should not be outright banned, but rather revealed at team preview which would eliminate the guesswork. Any Pokemon that is too strong with or without it deserves a ban.
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Except for Annihilape, Espathra, Magearna, Regieleki, Volcarona, Kingambit, Iron Valiant, Dragapult, Baxcalibur, Walking Wake, Enamorus, Garganacl, Zamazenta, Sneasler, and virtually every other offensive threat though. Pretty long list honestly. Tera Blast giving all of these things (though some don't even need it) a third 80bp 100 accurate STAB of ANY type? Absolutely insane, and double STAB being absurd on the rest is just too much. There's been a lot of talk about Tera Blast (a lot by me in fact) but as much as it's stacking things,"ban stab Tera" might be like, a fair consideration. And if a tri pronged "Tera preview, AND Tera Blast ban, AND STAB Tera ban" is what it takes to balance Tera it gets me thinking, having to do 3 different things to balance this mechanic is kind of a lot
Really the only balancing act that seems to be getting any consideration is a Tera Blast suspect / QB. The Pokemon that are broken by Tera Blast like Volcarona, Espathra, and Regeleki are distinctly different from Pokemon like Annihilape and debatably Kingambit even though it may not seem different at first glance largely because they gain additional coverage they are not suppose to have. In Volcarona's case, if it didn't have Tera Blast, I'd argue Tera would make it easier to check since certain Pokemon could tech Tera Fire to resist its attacks better (i.e. Lando-T, though going Tera Fire has other in battle ramifications like making it weaker to a partner Tusk). We see more Pokemon in lower tiers exhibit this effect too like Jolteon in NU. I'll admit, this will get rid of the "heat" element of Tera since getting new coverage drastically improves most lower tier Pokemon, but such is the price to pay.
Certain other restrictions may be suggested, but doesn't mean that people necessarily want them in tandem with other suggested restrictions & more importantly, they will even be seriously considered by the council. I'll admit, this thread gets cluttered quite a bit, but most of these restrictions seem to be suggested in isolation rather than a set of overlapping restrictions (ie. No STAB Tera types x No non-STAB Tera-types x Tera Captain). I don't pay attention to this thread for the most part though, so maybe people are suggesting like this. Regardless, since currently no restrictions have been imposed on Tera, the question isn't "How many restrictions need to be imposed to make Tera balanced?" but rather "What are the restrictions that need to be considered?" meaning that people will realistically be throwing a lot of suggestions, like overlapping restrictions (which I am sure most pro-Tera players don't want), complex bans, etc that will more than likely get almost no traction. Since we can't go back to this in the future, I think its better that people throw shit at the wall and see what options gets the most positive feedback from the communitiy, even though the only one I realistically see going through is some action on Tera Blast & maybe just suspecting some of the more overwhelming Tera Pokemon like Baxcalibur and Kingambit.
These Pokemon may be broken with Tera, but Terastallization is a big part of this tier and this ninth generation identity. We must take it into consideration and therefore anything that is too strong needs to be banned. I feel like it's common sense. Also, you brought up the point that Tera Blast giving a third STAB of any type to any Pokemon is insane and double STAB being absurd. To be honest, I don't see the negative in giving more coverage to Pokemons, in fact, it's great thing in my opinion because it helps Pokemon that are held back by their movepool to get past theirs checks for example. As a matter of fact, from what I read, I haven't seen anyone complaining about Tera Blast or the fact that it gives STAB to non-STAB moves and x2 STAB to already stabbed moves.
It doesn't take much to make this mechanic balanced in my opinion. Just enable Tera preview, it'll already get rid of most of the guesswork. It'd then just be a matter of when the opponent is going to Tera and whether they run Tera Blast or not. Defensive Pokemons usually do not run Tera Blast, and their Tera typings are already predictable asf regardless of if we do implement Tera preview or not. Offensive Pokemons are the reason why people complain. Not knowing their Tera typing can be the difference between winning and losing a game, especially with a Pokemon like Kingambit that has x4 weakness to Fighting type and x2 weakness to Ground type which he can turn into resistances/immunities in a matter of seconds. Just implementing Tera typing at preview would already be a great start, then we could see which Pokemons are still broken and take tiering action accordingly.
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Everytime I read "tera blast is an 80 BP move every pokemon has access to that gives them coverage" it really makes me wonder where all the OGs are at that played before hidden power was nerfed from 70 BP... you mean to tell me 10 BP difference is the straw that breaks the camels back with that move? even if you told me 20, that still isn't convincing enough cause its rare a pokemon doesn't just have a 80 BP coverage move to begin with.
Thinking about it more, hidden power is more broken than tera blast cause tera blast at least forces you to burn a resource in the form of tera to make use of it while hidden power can be utilized by any pokemon (and dont give me that you lose 1 IV shit as a cost) under any condition and you won't know what typing it is, only assume. 80 BP vs. 60 BP might sound like a lot, but 60 BP was enough to lure a lot of shit and OHKO them or just flat out enable that mon to answer its would be counter, I don't think gliscor is getting one shot by tera blast or hidden power ice but the fact its fucking there means gliscor isn't doing shit to match you anymore, the concept has always been there and its no different now, Tera blast is not the broken aspect, its a cog of the machine.
Everyone that wants action on tera just finds it broken for different reasons.. there's the camp desperate for something so they go for the most placebo option that no-action activist won't be too pissed about to object, the camp that has basically given up, the camp trying to pinpoint what specifically upsets them the most and target that, and the camp that can't justify its existance at all.
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STAB only tera breaks some mons but not all of them, tera blast unrelated.
Tera blast doesn't break many contrary to popular belief, you could argue espathra and then be BTFO'd by Tera fairy dazzling gleam instead, so there's no value even removing it you gain nothing but volcarona when I could wager volcarona has a decent chance of dropping from a suspect test now without any tera action to begin with.
The concept of just swapping your type on the fly however does break a lot of mons cause that's what flips the type chart without any notice and can lead to a free setup turn, a would be KO on your mon that survives enough for a 2HKO on the opponents, or complete matchup flips that's render shit uncheckable.
Thinking about it more, hidden power is more broken than tera blast cause tera blast at least forces you to burn a resource in the form of tera to make use of it while hidden power can be utilized by any pokemon (and dont give me that you lose 1 IV shit as a cost) under any condition and you won't know what typing it is, only assume. 80 BP vs. 60 BP might sound like a lot, but 60 BP was enough to lure a lot of shit and OHKO them or just flat out enable that mon to answer its would be counter, I don't think gliscor is getting one shot by tera blast or hidden power ice but the fact its fucking there means gliscor isn't doing shit to match you anymore, the concept has always been there and its no different now, Tera blast is not the broken aspect, its a cog of the machine.
Everyone that wants action on tera just finds it broken for different reasons.. there's the camp desperate for something so they go for the most placebo option that no-action activist won't be too pissed about to object, the camp that has basically given up, the camp trying to pinpoint what specifically upsets them the most and target that, and the camp that can't justify its existance at all.
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STAB only tera breaks some mons but not all of them, tera blast unrelated.
Tera blast doesn't break many contrary to popular belief, you could argue espathra and then be BTFO'd by Tera fairy dazzling gleam instead, so there's no value even removing it you gain nothing but volcarona when I could wager volcarona has a decent chance of dropping from a suspect test now without any tera action to begin with.
The concept of just swapping your type on the fly however does break a lot of mons cause that's what flips the type chart without any notice and can lead to a free setup turn, a would be KO on your mon that survives enough for a 2HKO on the opponents, or complete matchup flips that's render shit uncheckable.
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I agree a generational mechanic needs a much higher threshold to be hit before it should be considered for being banned, but if a dozen Pokemon were in Ubers purely on the back of Tera I think it would hit that. Where exactly that line is is certainly up for debate, but that is also sort of the point of this whole thread.
I disagree about Tera giving extra coverage being a good thing and would argue it is actually really bad. Pokemon are intentionally designed around their tool kit, moves, abilities, stat spreads, etc, and the limitations of certain coverage being missing from that tool kit is a deliberate balancing point. Regieleki is the prime example of this. Some Pokemon could certainly use more help with their move pools, the Eevees for example, but not all and Tera Blast is the wrong way to do it imo.
Doesn't Tera Blast also get STAB? So when my Regieleki becomes an Ice type to Blast opposing ground types, 80 becomes 120 becomes 240 which is 100 more than if it had 70 power HP Ice which just goes from 70 to 140. So yea, even pre nerf, that is a world of difference.
Generational mechanics should not be given special treatment purely because it is "part of this generations identity" you could apply that non-point to Dynamax. "But Dynamax was clearly broken" what does that have to do with arbitrary concepts such generational identity, and what does competitive balance have to do with "generational identity"?
Hidden Power functioned fundamentally different than Tera Blast though, that equivalence is not quite right. In gen 3, hidden power was often less than 70 BP and was restricted by type to be physical or special. In gens 4 and 5 it was just special attackers that could realistically use it, and then in Gens 6-7 it was lowered to 60 BP. Hidden Power only had 70 BP when Flamethrower/etc had 95, Fire Blast/etc had 110, etc - most moves' BP was scaled differently. The use case was different as well. Hidden Power was used as a coverage move, usually to tap 4x weaknesses- it certainly didn't get STAB, and was not equivalent to a Pokémon's one or two STAB moves. We're looking more like 120 BP vs 60 BP, and that's usable by physical attackers too, not just special attackers. The "resource use" of Tera Blast isn't much concern when you're Teraing your offensive wincon- "win the game" comes out on top of any cost/benefit analysis.
"I don't think Gliscor is getting OHKO'd by Tera Blast Ice"
252+ Atk Tera Ice Sneasler Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gliscor: 388-460 (109.6 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Ice Kingambit Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gliscor: 400-472 (112.9 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The Espathra bit is ignoring that Tera Fairy Espathra's flawed STAB of Psychic/Fairy was being exploited by Kingambit and was losing its broken edge, becoming more like Cresselia, until Tera Blast Fighting was innovated.
I agree the free setup turn from Terastalization is a big part of its issues, having to play around your check to their threat being blown up by a surprise Tera blast is a similar outcome than having to play around them Teraing to get a free Swords Dance
Dynamax was also a generational mechanic, but guess what, it was uncompetitive. I’m pretty everyone can agree on that. I’m not saying we should keep Terastallization just because it defines this generation, not only it does, but it is a healthy mechanic, unlike Dynamax, that brings interesting features to the table.
Just wanna point out that Tera Blast is way stronger than Hidden Power because it also gives you STAB. We're not talking about 60 BP vs 80 BP, we're talking about 60 BP vs 120 BP, and that is kind of huge. Hidden Power was really only for 4x weak mons most of the time, but Tera Blast lets you hit 2x weak mons for the same damage, which broadens the range of what you hit by a massive, massive amount.
Honestly, it's STAB, after a boost you're killing neutral targets with it
1. Probably, I wouldn’t be able to properly answer since I have a very limited number of games logged into UU but I feel like if I did put more in I’d find similar issues - like lucario using tera normal on a specs sball to grab a boost or hippowdon using tera fairy to make sure that my team has no ways to break through it. The issues with tera are inherently related to the metagame it’s been placed in however it isn’t too difficult to draw parallels with the lower tiers either (see the oricorio forms or frosmoth, for instance)
2. Banning tera will decrease the power level, no doubt about it. The lack of stab teras means that offensive power is directly lowered and the lack of defensive teras makes grabbing boosts much more difficult and also prevents “instant win” teras on defensive mons where it can wall an entire team with the press of a button, and it removes the use of tera blast for coverage which means that boosts are rewarded far less.
There would also be other effects to removing tera, perhaps the metagame would be more focused on coverage than strong stabs as having one is less emphasised since mons can no longer turn off their weakness to said coverage - lord knows nidoking would benefit.
3. I think that as long as tera exists there will be an unbalance to it - the ability to change types without warning, no matter if you know what the type change will be or not is too powerful, the extra stab is just icing on the cake.
In vgc, where the metagame is much less oriented around defensive checks as opposed to grabbing kos fast it’s much less of a problem, especially since boosting moves are much less emphasised - heatran may tera into grass to avoid its ground weakness, but at least it won’t use that turn to win the game immediately, besides it’s also teraing out of a fairy resistance which means flutter mane can hit it hard - but if a fallen 5 gambit uses tera flying or, god forbid, fairy on your great tusk to get an sd boost and you don’t have either encore or a physical wall short of dondozo it’s more than likely game on that one turn.
Lets also acknowledge that this scenario is a - forgive the pun - checkmate, whether tera preview exists or not, as you need to switch your great tusk in on gambit since nothing can check it defensively/threaten super effective damage, however when tusk switches in gambit can just tera to get a second boost and now great tusk can no longer hit it.
The UU equivalent of this would be bisharp vs whatever checks bisharp down there, and even lower you get the mons that imitate volcarona. So yeah I think that no matter what is done tera will always be a problem in some way shame or form unless it’s removed, even if doing so would mean that some mons like bax or walking wake need to be banned because of it.
This is objectively wrong, I'd say. Tera is never going to be healthy due to the way the game works. Typings are an integral part of how we interact with threats, and how we respond to them. The ability to change rolls so significantly on a whim is inherently unbalanced. It's the same reason dynamax was broken, except it was disgustingly clear.
252 SpA Volcarona Max Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Abomasnow: 996-1176 (310.2 - 366.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Tera Fire Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Abomasnow: 920-1088 (286.6 - 338.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Abomasnow: 688-816 (214.3 - 254.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Tera Fire Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Abomasnow: 115-136 (35.8 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Tera Water Abomasnow Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 436-516 (140.1 - 165.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Doesn't help that you can double down on stab and increase it even further. That's a 70% difference at minimum. That's ridiculous.
It's adding even more of a rock paper scissors element to the game. The example is drastic, but it highlights how unstable tera Is that a 4x weakness can consider staying in.
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in short: dynamax makes the game "rock paper scissors - gun"
this is inherently uncompetitive to the game of rock paper scissors
tera makes the game "rock paper scissors - rock, wait no, paper"
this is also inherently uncompetitive to the game of rock paper scissors, it's just less blatant
this is inherently uncompetitive to the game of rock paper scissors
tera makes the game "rock paper scissors - rock, wait no, paper"
this is also inherently uncompetitive to the game of rock paper scissors, it's just less blatant
Dynamax could also very easily have defined gen 8. Something being a "generational mechanic" has nothing to do with if it is broken, so why does this keep getting brought up
It looks like I haven’t made myself clear.
I don’t see Tera Blast being problematic in any sort of way really. I saw people bringing up Regieleki case. Listen, Regieleki going to Ubers is a combination of it being too fast, Transistor and BoltBeam allowing it to bypass its checks. Why would you consider Tera Blast being the problem ? Can we make the same argument about a Pokemon like Polteageist ?
"Oh it allows it to bypass Dark types so it’s unhealthy for the metagame" So what ? Does anyone here see Polteageist as a unhealthy presence ? The mechanic was designed with that in mind. Terastallization and Tera Blast kind of defeat the idea of having checks to specific Pokemons.
You could make the case that giving 80 power stabbed move from any type to any Pokemon may be a bit too much when comparing it with Hidden Power, which was not as strong and did not benefit from STAB. But still, I think it’s a great tool for reasons I explained earlier, especially in the absence of Hidden Power.
I’m not saying we should never ever take tiering action against Tera Blast, but I just feel like Tera at preview should be implemented before doing anything, cause Tera type guessing would no longer be a problem and then we could see what the real issue is. That’s just me tho, I’m not forcing anyone to agree, just giving my thoughts away.
I don’t see Tera Blast being problematic in any sort of way really. I saw people bringing up Regieleki case. Listen, Regieleki going to Ubers is a combination of it being too fast, Transistor and BoltBeam allowing it to bypass its checks. Why would you consider Tera Blast being the problem ? Can we make the same argument about a Pokemon like Polteageist ?
"Oh it allows it to bypass Dark types so it’s unhealthy for the metagame" So what ? Does anyone here see Polteageist as a unhealthy presence ? The mechanic was designed with that in mind. Terastallization and Tera Blast kind of defeat the idea of having checks to specific Pokemons.
You could make the case that giving 80 power stabbed move from any type to any Pokemon may be a bit too much when comparing it with Hidden Power, which was not as strong and did not benefit from STAB. But still, I think it’s a great tool for reasons I explained earlier, especially in the absence of Hidden Power.
I’m not saying we should never ever take tiering action against Tera Blast, but I just feel like Tera at preview should be implemented before doing anything, cause Tera type guessing would no longer be a problem and then we could see what the real issue is. That’s just me tho, I’m not forcing anyone to agree, just giving my thoughts away.
You’re right, but I think we can all agree that one was way more uncompetitive than the other.
Cool Dynamax is more broken then Terastal, Terastal still unhealthy tho.
Regieleki only gets ice coverage because of Tera (blast), without said ice coverage Eleki would be UU or RU.
Tera Preview is not needed to look at the problems that terastallization causes, nor is it a good solution, the only thing I can call Tera Preview with honesty is a meme.
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