Tera...Again

[cfdu1202]

What is your stance on Tera in the metagame?

It was fun but ultimately has to go. It's already hard enough, if not impossible, to account for every threats in the metagame during teambuilding, and tera just exacerbates this issue. Tera offers little counterplay too. What do you do with your Kingambit in front of a +2 Gholdengo anyway when you know it can Tera Fighting? Tera poison Stored Power Pokemon? What about tera Fire in Sun, tera Water in Rain? Tera Normal Dragonite, tera Fairy Iron Valiant also enjoys much higher power levels than what they "should" have. The tier is simply not equipped to handle all of the aforementioned problems.

Do you think Tera should be retested? Why?

100% yes. I believe it's time for a retest, even accounting for the new home transfers.

What do you think has changed since the original suspect test, which ended in a no ban vote, that would justify retesting Tera?

People got more time playing the metagame. Tera is still busted as ever.

 

[RustOverLord]

What is your stance on Tera in the metagame?

I absolutely believe that tera is, both now and in the long run, an overwhelmingly negative mechanic for natdex's future. the metagame is already quite dice-rolly due to the sheer amount of pokemon in the meta, but tera makes it so much more so. seeing volcarona, an otherwise balanced mon, get banned to ubers in the main format is enough proof to me. it creates a toxic and frustrating meta that forces players to rely on luck rather than skill a lot of the time. guessed the tera wrong in the decisive turn after outplaying for most of the game? congrats, you lost the match.

Do you think Tera should be retested? Why?

For sure. its not a healthy mechanic for the metagame, both harming its competitive integrity and fun-factor

What do you think has changed since the original suspect test, which ended in a no ban vote, that would justify retesting Tera?

In my opinion, the difference between the previous suspect and now is knowledge. before-hand, tera wasnt banned largely because of "fun-factor", ignoring the overpowered factor of it since, well, we didnt know beforehand. like, hell, a month of 2 ago i wouldnt vote for ban (if i was good enough for reqs KEKW, might try though), but after climbing to top 250, building my skill and actually getting a good enough understanding of the metagame, i believe this mechanic is just absurd to keep.

 

[Sonar]

Most of the previous posts sum everything up pretty neatly

What is your stance on Tera in the metagame?
Tera has to go. It just forces situations that shouldn't exist. It allows any pokemon to overcome their checks and creates too many threats to account for in the teambuilder.
Do you think Tera should be retested? Why?
Yes. As I said, Tera makes it far too easy for a Pokemon to overcome checks and counters and steamroll a team.

What do you think has changed since the original suspect test, which ended in a no ban vote, that would justify retesting Tera?
It's quite simple, we've had time to try and adapt to the meta but it's clear that adapting to tera is simply not possible as it has too little counterplay to it for it to be healthy at all

 

[MudkipBeans]

What is your stance on Tera in the metagame?

Possibly the dumbest shit imaginable, it’s honestly just made every single match I play that much more out of my control. I’d like to play more but my frustration with Tera is so bad I can’t tolerate a few matches cuz it’s just that annoying. Any more of this BS and I can just move on to better tiers that actually reward good positioning and don’t let all that go out the window immediately with a single button anyone can press. I believe my stance on Tera from the original post still stands, but I can add a few more things to it. Tournament matches at the moment are frankly unrepresentative of skill and watching people attempt to have a sensible World Cup is awful. LBN’s Cresselia epitomizes this. Bring whatever might be an unbeatable win condition and hope you win on preview. Best of 1 might as well be a coin flip, no point in actually playing the match given the huge variance in threats.

Do you think Tera should be retested? Why?

I do think it should be retested, and I don’t think I need to elaborate on why. It’s pretty obvious given my disgust for the mechanic and everyone else’s sentiment.

What do you think has changed since the original suspect test, which ended in a no ban vote, that would justify retesting Tera?

Nothing has changed, only a few bans to certain abusers really, but it’s done exactly what I predicted it to do on release. We’ve gotten to the point where skill is nearly meaningless and scouting is done so much it’s exhausting to try and poke out Tera every single match. The fact that I could have a double switched Mega Medicham staring down gambit and threaten with an OHKO, only for me to have to switch out in fear of dieing to a random tera is representative of a metagame that doesn’t reward positioning and punishes you for good plays, which while arguably just a different experience to literally every mons metagame ever, is just not fun and stupid.

 

[Oculars]

What is your stance on Tera in the metagame?
Ruins the fun of building a strategy off matchup and any chance of long term planning throughout the game, going back and playing some gen8 ndou just to compare is almost calming given how you can actually stick to one proper plan and have a reasonable idea of how your game will go and what you have to do to play out your matchup without feeling like every turn is a toss up. Even if tera only happens once a game it throws off your confidence in your decisions and makes you second guess plays leading to a much more reluctant playstyle and mentally exhausting gameplay that makes you tilt quicker. It ruins the entire concept of having wincons and playing for them throughout a game. a 120/110/120 bulk levitating steel or poison mon with setup and stored power to demolish any fat team in existence simply shouldnt exist along with a 90/115/115 bulk defence boosting body press mon with 138 speed that changes type to resist any scarfer that can KO it and demolish any hyper offence in existence. These mons were never designed to be able to tera and because of that it horribly unbalanced the tier.

Do you think Tera should be retested? Why?
Yes, because the opinion has largely shifted well over the line of banning it and almost all experienced players believe its detrimental to what mons is supposed to be as a competitive game, the first vote was also super scuffed with people joke voting do not ban for the lols and also people generally not being incentivized to get reqs and vote given how overwhelmingly they believed it would be banned. I also wanna free the guys that were banned due to tera and wouldnt be anywhere close to broken without it like melmetal, cyclizar, roaring moon and regieleki.
What do you think has changed since the original suspect test, which ended in a no ban vote, that would justify retesting Tera?
Nothing has fundamentally changed about the mechanic except for the fact that we've now been through several waves of over centralizing tera abusers rising and being banned, the first test was way too early for people to understand how bad tera was going to be well before many of the worst abusers like annihilape and espathra were even out of UU so we had much less information as to how uncompetitive it would be in a more settled metagame.

EDIT: please dont wait until after NDLT to do the retest yeet it out of the tier ASAP

 

[adem]

i share the exact same opinion (or even that tera has gotten much worse) as my previous tera thread and suspect test posts, if you want to read them: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ex-where-do-we-stand-now.3717734/post-9537100
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-national-dex-suspect-1-crystals.3712562/post-9434960
and also echo the other ban posts in this thread, no point beating a dead horse. what i want to adress are some of the more thought out dnb posts

e: this turns out to be literally 1/3 of the dnb posts lol, funny

But I think it is too soon after the introduction of Pokemon Home, too early in our first Gen 9 tournament circuit, and too close to our last test of Terastallization to introduce another test.

How long do you want to wait lol? After NDPL? After Circuit Champs? Next year??? How long more do you want to subject the tier to deal with this quite obviously concerning mechanic. It has been 6 MONTHS since the last suspect test, a whole half a year, half a year of bans, half a year of the mechanic only getting worse and worse, a whole team tour gone through and multiple indivs. Half a year of development, how much more do you need to see the obvious issue. Too early in the circuit? When would you prefer it instead lol, towards the end, and have the playoff makers play a completely different metagame to what they have been playing with the past year? Too close to home? Its been two weeks since home, and one of the new home mons was quickbanned anyways lol, 2-3 new relevant mons do not completely flip over the meta to warrant delaying a test. Saying its too early now is a cop out response, now is the perfect time to do it, doing it any later would be a horrible decision. There is nothing more to wait for, it is not too early, 6 months is more than enough development and “adaptation”.

I strongly urge people reading this to think about what is broken: the Pokemon using Tera, the moveset they have access to (Stored Power is a common move for the most egregious Tera abusers, although much harder to isolate than Shed Tail, and Garganacl still...exists).

The Pokemon using Tera are broken because of Tera, the moveset they have access to is broken because of Tera. Tell me the last time Polteageist was broken? Tell me the last time Cresselia was broken, hell, when was the last time either of these were even good, or even relevant? the answer is never lol. The latter even got nerfed stat wise this gen, as well as the addition of a lot of new on paper counterplay like Ghold and Gambit, I wonder why its broken now? Stop trying to blame the moves, we have had them for decades and they were never broken, infact in some cases they even got worse, whats broken is the mechanic introduced to make these mons broken. Blaming the moves is a cop out argument and blinding yourself to the truth. If you think tera is fine just say that, no need to beat around the bush blaming shit like stored power lol. Re: the pokemon, outside of a few new mons introduced which are questionable to some since we have never had them in a teraless meta / they were banned in one (pult, zama, val, ghold, sneas, garg, gambit), i dont want to go into specifics about each of the mons (unless you really need me too lol) but most of these mons completely hinge on tera to cause the issues they cause (garg, sneas, zama, ghold), and some like (val pult gambit) may not completely rely on tera but they make would-be soft checks not relevant (spd lando for pult, av torn for val and pult, lop for gambit etc) and some (gambit) let u just completely flip the matchup on what would normally be a hard counter or check. Everything else, from all the things banned already, to everything that people complain about because of tera are 100% not broken in any way shape or form without tera, i would even go to lengths to say that everything that we currently have (and a lot of the things we have qbanned) would be perfectly fine without tera. The mons are not the problem, if this is your argument you have either never touched the tier (which i know you have) or your trying not to see for yourself the underlying issue in all of these.

My personal answer is that we don't know yet if Tera is broken: we have a smaller playerbase than SV OU and we are a week out from Pokemon Home, but we do have several upcoming tournaments in NDWC playoffs, NDLT, and NDPL to develop the meta.

Idk one of the most one sided surveys we’ve ever had for Tera, our playerbase is still one of the biggest on the entire site, comparing it to literally the biggest meta on the site is ???? we have more than enough players, and they have spoken. What more is there to develop? Everyone playing these tours seem to agree that tera should go, i am quite sure no one wants to “develop” the meta even more, all that comes up every week with this is some new broken mon with tera.

As long as the enjoyment of players isn't impaired - and I would bet several minor body parts that the meta is lots more competitive and enjoyable after the Shed Tail and Espathra bans - then we should stay the course and evaluate individual Pokemon for suspects before coming to a consensus of possibly testing the generation-defining mechanic.

I hate hate hate when people use terms like “generation-defining mechanic” to put tera or other stuff on a pedestal, this mechanic should not be any different from suspecting anything else, this and any other idolising descriptors should not be anywhere on a dnb post, this was a ignored joke argument when dmax was suspected, and it was when people wanted to suspect z moves in sm. i really hope i do not have to see more people bringing stuff like this up.

It's a big deal to remove Tera, and if we don't gather the necessary well-informed votes, what if the next outcome turns out to be the wrong one? Baton Pass was banned from Gen 4 in 2021, sure, but what's a bit more time to test and make sure we make the best long-term decision for Gen 9 Natdex?

Whats a bit more time is that frankly people want to enjoy this tier as much as they can for as long as they can lol, gamefreak is popping out games every morning, in 2+ more years were all going to ditch this meta for a new one, why waste one whole circuit on a meta state the community dislikes a lot and ruin the quality of tours further on? Last test was one vote off, with multiple “joke” votes, multiple people changing their minds (vocally), as well as a good bit of the dnb voted (at least vocally) was due to it being “too early” and other similiar reasons, that, alomgside with the quite overwhelming survey as well as 2 tera threads being 95% ban i think is gathering enough well-informed votes.

Not a ton. See above for comments on timing + home + smaller playerbase. I think we need at least two more major tournaments to get a better handle on this issue.

?

Genuinely confused. Did you misread the question? What has changed? What was changed has 20 trillion bans, the discovery that demon sweepers were broken, the discovery that bulky setup sweepers were broken, home introducing new mons, huge meta changes due to the bans. I sincerely hope you just misread the question, because this answer is a joke lol. Meta is like night and day, we literally had shit like revcats right before the first test and the usual start of gen unbans. Please clarify this somewhere.

 

[peap]

i share the exact same opinion (or even that tera has gotten much worse) as my previous tera thread and suspect test posts, if you want to read them: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ex-where-do-we-stand-now.3717734/post-9537100
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-national-dex-suspect-1-crystals.3712562/post-9434960
and also echo the other ban posts in this thread, no point beating a dead horse. what i want to adress are some of the more thought out dnb posts

e: this turns out to be literally 1/3 of the dnb posts lol, funny



How long do you want to wait lol? After NDPL? After Circuit Champs? Next year??? How long more do you want to subject the tier to deal with this quite obviously concerning mechanic. It has been 6 MONTHS since the last suspect test, a whole half a year, half a year of bans, half a year of the mechanic only getting worse and worse, a whole team tour gone through and multiple indivs. Half a year of development, how much more do you need to see the obvious issue. Too early in the circuit? When would you prefer it instead lol, towards the end, and have the playoff makers play a completely different metagame to what they have been playing with the past year? Too close to home? Its been two weeks since home, and one of the new home mons was quickbanned anyways lol, 2-3 new relevant mons do not completely flip over the meta to warrant delaying a test. Saying its too early now is a cop out response, now is the perfect time to do it, doing it any later would be a horrible decision. There is nothing more to wait for, it is not too early, 6 months is more than enough development and “adaptation”.



The Pokemon using Tera are broken because of Tera, the moveset they have access to is broken because of Tera. Tell me the last time Polteageist was broken? Tell me the last time Cresselia was broken, hell, when was the last time either of these were even good, or even relevant? the answer is never lol. The latter even got nerfed stat wise this gen, as well as the addition of a lot of new on paper counterplay like Ghold and Gambit, I wonder why its broken now? Stop trying to blame the moves, we have had them for decades and they were never broken, infact in some cases they even got worse, whats broken is the mechanic introduced to make these mons broken. Blaming the moves is a cop out argument and blinding yourself to the truth. If you think tera is fine just say that, no need to beat around the bush blaming shit like stored power lol. Re: the pokemon, outside of a few new mons introduced which are questionable to some since we have never had them in a teraless meta / they were banned in one (pult, zama, val, ghold, sneas, garg, gambit), i dont want to go into specifics about each of the mons (unless you really need me too lol) but most of these mons completely hinge on tera to cause the issues they cause (garg, sneas, zama, ghold), and some like (val pult gambit) may not completely rely on tera but they make would-be soft checks not relevant (spd lando for pult, av torn for val and pult, lop for gambit etc) and some (gambit) let u just completely flip the matchup on what would normally be a hard counter or check. Everything else, from all the things banned already, to everything that people complain about because of tera are 100% not broken in any way shape or form without tera, i would even go to lengths to say that everything that we currently have (and a lot of the things we have qbanned) would be perfectly fine without tera. The mons are not the problem, if this is your argument you have either never touched the tier (which i know you have) or your trying not to see for yourself the underlying issue in all of these.



Idk one of the most one sided surveys we’ve ever had for Tera, our playerbase is still one of the biggest on the entire site, comparing it to literally the biggest meta on the site is ???? we have more than enough players, and they have spoken. What more is there to develop? Everyone playing these tours seem to agree that tera should go, i am quite sure no one wants to “develop” the meta even more, all that comes up every week with this is some new broken mon with tera.



I hate hate hate when people use terms like “generation-defining mechanic” to put tera or other stuff on a pedestal, this mechanic should not be any different from suspecting anything else, this and any other idolising descriptors should not be anywhere on a dnb post, this was a ignored joke argument when dmax was suspected, and it was when people wanted to suspect z moves in sm. i really hope i do not have to see more people bringing stuff like this up.



Whats a bit more time is that frankly people want to enjoy this tier as much as they can for as long as they can lol, gamefreak is popping out games every morning, in 2+ more years were all going to ditch this meta for a new one, why waste one whole circuit on a meta state the community dislikes a lot and ruin the quality of tours further on? Last test was one vote off, with multiple “joke” votes, multiple people changing their minds (vocally), as well as a good bit of the dnb voted (at least vocally) was due to it being “too early” and other similiar reasons, that, alomgside with the quite overwhelming survey as well as 2 tera threads being 95% ban i think is gathering enough well-informed votes.



?

Genuinely confused. Did you misread the question? What has changed? What was changed was 20 million bans, the discovery that demon sweepers were broken, home introducing new mons, huge meta changes due to the bans. I sincerely hope you just misread the question, because this answer is a joke lol. Meta is like night and day, we literally had shit like revcats right before the first test and the usual start of gen unbans. Please clarify this somewhere.

Thanks for raising these points. My first post was more to offer a devil’s advocate counterpoint to the majority Ban opinions in this thread, so I’ll speak now as a tournament circuit player with skin in the game.

Am I frustrated with Tera? Of course!! I think about getting knocked out in the first Seasonal, where I got 2-0d by Tera Steel Weakness Policy Latios and Tera Water SD Rapidshifu. Do I think I could win, even win seasonal, if Tera didn’t make these games literally unwinnable? You bet! But I’m still playing NDWC and looking for ways to adapt to the meta before writing it off as unplayable. I’m 4-1 and lost to a Tera Ghost lead Lando (which is fire btw) and also just as frustrating.

My personal opinion is that it’s Tera that’s the common factor pushing things over the edge. In our sister meta, SV OU, I was shocked to see Volcarona quickbanned and the reason is clearly uncontrollable wincons via type-changing. I’m uncomfortable with our own Ursaluna quickban (I voted ban, but would have preferred a suspect) and the sheer number of things leaving the tiers is not healthy. If we banned Tera and think the metagame would look a lot cleaner and more people would play it.

So why am I advocating for more time? As I mentioned I feel like I should make this argument as evenhanded as possible so we can prove without a doubt that Tera should go. Your point about spending a significant portion of the circuit in an uncompetitive metagame with Tera resonates with me, because, well, I’m playing it. But also I think this is where the “smoking gun” that gets Tera banned lies: replays of good players playing bad games, made bad by this mechanic. All the arguments of this isn’t enjoyable, we would’ve banned Tera without one joke vote, are valid but when people look back on this years later I think they would really understand by watching broken battle replays.

adem, let’s get on play.pokemonshowdown.com and run some friendlies, let’s record silly abuses of Tera, and get 100% proof that this is the right decision. Until then I will continue to play in this metagame and gather my own evidence via matches, and encourage others to do so as well.

 

[sasha]

word vomit

I strongly urge people reading this to think about what is broken: the Pokemon using Tera, the moveset they have access to (Stored Power is a common move for the most egregious Tera abusers, although much harder to isolate than Shed Tail, and Garganacl still...exists). My personal answer is that we don't know yet if Tera is broken: we have a smaller playerbase than SV OU and we are a week out from Pokemon Home, but we do have several upcoming tournaments in NDWC playoffs, NDLT, and NDPL to develop the meta.

Okay forewarning I apologize for responding to the same things adem did, but I do think you bring up great points that warrant a lot of discussion. My personal issue with this argument is, how many "broken abusers" do you take to the chopping block before tera is stable, how many times do you suspect or QB mons because they can abuse tera until SVOU just becomes SVUU BL and friends? It's not worth banning X amount of unidentified mons to keep tera rather than ban tera and just keep the tier as it is. Using your Stored Power example, we shouldn't be banning Cresselia or Stored Power because it can abuse tera, that makes tera broken, not Cresselia or Stored Power. It's too broad of a spectrum to tier when you consider movesets, moves, pokemon that realistically belong in UU or below, etc.

Addtionally, I don't think Home meta being out really changes anything. Home Meta only really introduces a few viable mons, some of which already require very specific answers that are annoying in teambuilder (Sneasler) (double parentheses to add that I don't think Sneasler is broken but slightly constricting), so I don't think it should take a whole NDLT and NDPL to "solve" or decide if Tera meta should stay. NDLT is probably a fine enough testing ground but I personally strongly urge that Tera be dealt with before NDPL, as NDPL is the most competitive tournament of the tier, and should not be used as a testing grounds, but to showcase the best of the best in ND duking it out. As a manger for last MPL where it was used as a testing grounds for 6 slots, it was a boring tournament and no one really cared about it in my opinion, had an insanely anti-climatic finals so avoid using NDPL as a testing grounds at literally any cost.

replays of good players playing bad games, made bad by this mechanic.

I could be misunderstanding this quote, so please correct me if I am! But, you do kind of seem to contradict yourself saying that the mechanic itself is deteriorating competitive play and games by making them inherently bad. Good players playing bad games is a direct result of Tera blurring every win path among other things in the tier.

Not a ton. See above for comments on timing + home + smaller playerbase. I think we need at least two more major tournaments to get a better handle on this issue.

I don't really think having a smaller player base means tera needs more testing either, SVOU and NDOU are entirely different tiers and shouldn't really be compared because I don't really think it gets anywhere when you compare tiers that are vastly different, and one of them is the flagship metagame of the entire website, it isn't that cohesive imo especially when you bring playerbase into it cuz its never gonna compare to CGOU. I completely understand not wanting to jump the gun on a ban as big as tera, so again I think you bring up really solid points but I think it's past the point of discussion atp especially with 1. how close the tera vote was and 2. what seems to be what the majority of the community wants. If it's that big of an issue, (disclaimer; I have no idea how tiering works lol so this could be an awful suggestion) maybe a hypothetical Tera suspect could have higher bars of entry (higher GXE requirement) so it guarantees better players are voting? If it really came down to a "meme vote" I do not see why that person should be allowed to vote again or why they are not infracted, it seems really silly if they admitted to it being a meme vote but then again I do not know if that even goes against tiering policy anw.

However, you bring up an amazing point of evidence as I only posted one replay before and haven't seen many others doing the same, so I will post any replay I have found to showcase Tera being broken:

tera pt1

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-690554 - Tera Fairy Glisc putting Adriyun in a very advantageous position he wouldn't have gotten without tera.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-689981 - Tera steel winning me the game.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1851231869-1gvfuehmsoien5zymgtq7lz8wfgzn3epw - Tera water making an out-playable end-game unplayable immediately
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-690623 - Tera grass heatran being able to be thrown out and click, now not an immediate example of tera being broken but it is a little unfair to expect someone to prep for tera grass heatran on top of literally everything else in nd, its too niche for this to be healthy
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1853939970-b0a9fzr0zvzih1k6aak9q6bvpju6ugxpw - TDR's lele being forced out because he knows you're tera steel, he knows the tera is coming but there isnt anything he can do besides sit there and take it, which is something i brought up in my og post. this couldve been an entirely different endgame without tera although this game came down to luck anyway but he wouldn't have been lucked when he had taken the correct winpath to begin with, which is also something else i brought up in my og post


this is just week one only, where 5/25 games resulted in tera just winning outright. now yeah....5 doesnt seem like a lot, but when 20% of games in a competitive tournament come down to factors that aren't outplayable is very unhealthy and a large percentage. i dont really want to go week by week and check but if week 1 has 20% of games decided by tera (well, in my opinion) i think that's pretty telling in itself.

tera pt2

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-690953 - sulo's tera water garg gives them a way to easily ignore suicune which otherwise would have had a good matchup vs them
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-691043 - raj's tera grass koko allows him to ignore not 1 but 2 elec immunes from his opponents side, which sure are both dgleam weak but ting lu isnt dropping to spces koko gleam t1 so in a game without tera this sequence would not have played out this way
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1860527027 - tera fairy volc lets it ignore the threat of rain + hurricane from zap (which missed anyway but lol)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1863748826-su5ms7050aiv9vv9fdd6ve0xgc5k9k2pw - hawlucha tera steeling in this game was awful lmao but tera water zama clutches the game which shouldve been lost
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1859839668-6jo5yxbbtly32284yyixswi7bl4r0ocpw - rain weak team is suddenly not rain weak because of tera water heatran, which again is unfair to assume is outplayable. tera cannot be predicted with 100% certainty.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-691589 - tera glisc makes game unplayable
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-691560 - tera fairy ghold puts rain team in a bad spot even tho the rain player played well up until this point
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-691360 - tera water barra helps me hit rolls i shouldnt hit normally
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-691326 - tera helps dragapult avoid pursuit which made dragapult 10000x more threatening in the game when it shouldve been removed ages ago, the game wasnt played perfectly but i dont see how this interaction is healthy when this pult was essentially sacked

this is week 2, where out of 24 games, 9 games were decided by tera (again, IMO), which is 37.5% of games, again, an unhealthy percentage.

i want to say again these are all IMO EXAMPLES OF TERA BEING BROKEN. if people disagree they can let me know over discord but dont jump down my throat pls!

so out of 49 games in only two weeks, in ~30% of them tera had a game changing outcome, which i dont think is healthy for a tier. but there is no consistency or inconsistency with these numbers, which i think further supports that tera is unpredictable and not a mechanic you can make sense of. you can say it can be used defensively but imo you generally get more mileage using it offensively (boosting stabs, making a setup sweeper or breaker resist a type so it can click more.

sorry if this post was really rambly but i think the discussion in the thread so far has been fire and i wanted to throw my two cents in :D good post

 

[adem]

sorry for the late reply lol have been busy w awards day stuff at school and getting victory royales

Thanks for raising these points. My first post was more to offer a devil’s advocate counterpoint to the majority Ban opinions in this thread, so I’ll speak now as a tournament circuit player with skin in the game.

Am I frustrated with Tera? Of course!! I think about getting knocked out in the first Seasonal, where I got 2-0d by Tera Steel Weakness Policy Latios and Tera Water SD Rapidshifu. Do I think I could win, even win seasonal, if Tera didn’t make these games literally unwinnable? You bet! But I’m still playing NDWC and looking for ways to adapt to the meta before writing it off as unplayable. I’m 4-1 and lost to a Tera Ghost lead Lando (which is fire btw) and also just as frustrating.

My personal opinion is that it’s Tera that’s the common factor pushing things over the edge. In our sister meta, SV OU, I was shocked to see Volcarona quickbanned and the reason is clearly uncontrollable wincons via type-changing. I’m uncomfortable with our own Ursaluna quickban (I voted ban, but would have preferred a suspect) and the sheer number of things leaving the tiers is not healthy. If we banned Tera and think the metagame would look a lot cleaner and more people would play it.

So why am I advocating for more time? As I mentioned I feel like I should make this argument as evenhanded as possible so we can prove without a doubt that Tera should go. Your point about spending a significant portion of the circuit in an uncompetitive metagame with Tera resonates with me, because, well, I’m playing it. But also I think this is where the “smoking gun” that gets Tera banned lies: replays of good players playing bad games, made bad by this mechanic. All the arguments of this isn’t enjoyable, we would’ve banned Tera without one joke vote, are valid but when people look back on this years later I think they would really understand by watching broken battle replays.

adem, let’s get on play.pokemonshowdown.com and run some friendlies, let’s record silly abuses of Tera, and get 100% proof that this is the right decision. Until then I will continue to play in this metagame and gather my own evidence via matches, and encourage others to do so as well.

ok i thought there would be more for me to say here but this is ok, although i think replay wise i think everyone has seen their fair share of funny tera replays, we can agree to disagree on that. thank u for ur response, and ye if im online catch me however these days i am busy on the victory royale grind

 

[AuroraOurania]

I was and continue to be pro ban. The main things that I think has changed versus the previous suspect are firstly, more people being willing to recognize that tera is overpowered, and 2nd and more importantly, it remains overpowered and uncompetitive even after numerous bans. I think that the most prominent argument that I saw as in good faith in favor of keeping tera was claiming that it can be limited via banning Pokémon. I think, with quite a few Pokémon being banned since then, especially ones that were overpowered primarily due to tera, the fact that it still is overpowered and uncompetitive shows that it can't be reasonably limited without being addressed directly.

I think that we all know the argument in general for why it should be banned, such as it forcing 50/50s, allowing Pokémon to beat their checks, and forcing you to bring so many defensive checks that it ends up being over centralizing for any team seeking to rely on defensive cores. I think that both originally and now it isn't a question of is it negative for the tier, it's a question of are people feeling to recognize it as such, and also, frankly, are people recognizing national dex as a tier that should be competitive rather than treated as a place for OU players to mess around in, and I think that everyone here can agree that this can and should be a competitive tier. If you aren't interested in the competitive integrity of the tier, then I don't think you should be making decisions for people who are

 

[buayagator]

Tera should be quickbanned from Natdex, this tier already have mega and z-moves as generational gimmick, no need to wasting time on another suspect test. Or if you like democracy, you can just re-vote with the previous user that have reqs on the first suspect test. I'm gladly vote BAN again. But if you make another 2 weeks 80 GXE suspect test, I'm out.

 

[AquaDoggg]

What is your stance on Tera in the metagame?
Obviously It's no secret tera can completely flip matchups and embolden already ridiculous threats, but I think the most damning aspect of it terms of game balance and the health of the tier is the sheer amount of variance it introduces. Pokémon is already a game that leaves several factors out of any player's control, and adding the absurd variance of tera just adds too much unpredictability to matchups and pretty clearly leads to more unfair feeling outcomes for everyone than without tera. Even outside of the notion of fairness, I think tera is simply proved to be too centralizing. I'm by no means an amazing player, but It don't think any mechanic that feels this centralizing and impactful game to game can be considered healthy, especially considering I've mostly been laddering with quite the bulky balance team around the 1600 elo mark. Even from the hundreds of games I've played at a respectable level in natdex ou, tera still proves remarkably good at finding a way through all reasonable safeguards, notably on top set up threats which only need one or two free turns to completely end a game, and are quite difficult to answer without pigeon-holing into one of the few mons that do well in diffusing a given set up sweeper, which can also be targeted by said sweeper in an unexpected offensive coverage tera type. You can always try to answer one of these threats with you own defensive tera, but it's not nearly consistent enough to justify all of the uncompetitive uses of the mechanic. Overall, I think this mechanic is just too much of a a headache to remain in the game, and although it's presence could certainty be improved with tiering action, tera is never going to be a truly positive presence in the tier simply for the fact that it adds a 50/50 or more complex uncertainty to so many matchups, offensive or otherwise.

Do you think Tera should be retested? Why?
Yes. Tera is simply not a healthy mechanic in a game based so much around matchups and positioning. Pokémon can always have it's instances of unfairness and frustration, but tera adds far too much uncertainty to a Pokémon's typing, the most fundamental and definitive property that more often than not defines a mon's place in the metagame in countless ways. It's completely disruptive and unpredictable by concept alone, and it simply adds too much variance to outcome in a very unhealthy way.


What do you think has changed since the original suspect test, which ended in a no ban vote, that would justify retesting Tera?
The obvious change from last suspect test to now is really time. People have had more time to sit with tera and see how it has affected the balance of various threats that have been further explored, refined, or added with the case of home mons (Sneasler). Tera is quite a versatile mechanic, and earlier on it's no surprise people may have been more hesitant to ban it, but I think what we've seen of the metagame since last suspect test should be reasonably expected to sway people's opinions pretty drastically. I personally was not too invested to vote last time, but I am now very dissatisfied with the place that tera has put the metagame in, and I plan to secure my requisites as soon as possible if a new tera suspect is conducted.

 

[AWeirdWeeb]

Well, what can I even say anymore about this mechanic while also keeping words half civil..

What is your stance on Tera in the metagame?
Basically, this thing is ruining the tier. In between the pressure it puts on teambuilder since everything will require running like 18 checks just the said threat can go into creative at the press of a button and switch it's weaknesses at command, the 50/50 it forces at every turn making games more based on luck than anything and the bans it forces on otherwise fine mons which just happen to become overbearing just cause this button exist are pretty much carving the tier more into a crude joke than anything that would be playable in a semi competitive way.

Do you think Tera should be retested? Why?
If the survey results, most of the community loathing it, the marginal different in votes and the stagnation in development it forces aren't enough to really clarify the need of a retest, then well .

What do you think has changed since the original suspect test, which ended in a no ban vote, that would justify retesting Tera?
People getting a better understanding of the mechanic and it's lingering effects, the new toy syndrome finally cooling off and (hopefully) less people spending hours on r/stunfisk praising this mechanic like it's their new Messiah.

 

[Of Shade]

What is your stance on Tera in the metagame?
I think it is less problematic now, but I still very much dislike it and would like to see it gone. It offers some cool outplay potential, but often it forces 50/50s that would otherwise not exist, and turning into a new type is not really skill expressive imo (especially when it is just one of maybe 3 tera types to beat a specific counter/set up on a check.)

Do you think Tera should be retested? Why?
Yes. Community feedback and talk about it in the Discord and even in this thread are clear signs that it is not welcome or wanted in this meta.

What do you think has changed since the original suspect test, which ended in a no ban vote, that would justify retesting Tera?
I think some people were jaded from the last gen mechanic, dmax, getting banned and wanted to at least give tera a chance (like c'mon how could it be worse than dmax huh?) I think we have given it it's chance and it has proven to be problematic and not healthy for the competitive landscape.

 

[Angolo390]

Tera is the single most pressing thing about the entire metagame right now and defintiely needs to be suspect tested. And to me, tera has 2 things that have caused it to become a plague to this meta and inhibiting the meta’s development.

1. Beating things you shouldnt beat
This is far and away the most obvious feat, Tera turns matchups that shouldn’t be won, into advantageous situations for the tera user, and without a tera of your own you will usually be floored.

Take this replay from NDWC for example https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-690554

Adriyun has an SD Gliscor but tlenit has a Kyurem, it should be very difficult for this Gliscor to make progress vs tlenit, however, it simply sheds its 4x Ice weakness and becomes a CHECK to Kyurem. This leads to Gliscor easily having this game won by around turn 30 but Adriyun trolls around for 80 turns LOL

2. The fear of Tera, forcing an unreasonable level of scouting.

You can lead correctly, lets say hypothetically leading your Great Tusk into your opponent leading Heatran, but as the Great Tusk user you will switch 90% of the time. Why? Because the 4x Ground-weak Heatran can turn Flying/Grass/Bug and claim your Great Tusk turn 1. I dont have any replays showing this, but my goodness if you play the tier you know this feeling, because doing anything feels risky and unsafe until your opponent has revealed their Tera.

These two reasons are pretty much the two balloons that most gripes with Tera are related to, but here are some more specific reasons.

3. Knowing what’s coming, but no way to stop it.

Here’s another WC replay, where you could’ve walked up siTum, handed them LBN’s Cresselia set, and the game would still be over by turn 20. Knowledge is power in mons, and knowing exactly what your opponent will do but still being at a disadvantage just does not feel condusive to skill.

4. The immense variance allowed by Tera creates way too much to consider in an already crowded tier.

Building ND has always been a challenge, the threats are more farther ranging and there will always be more to consider. Throw in a mechanic that warps the profile of a top threat that invalidates certain defensive cplay, and you are looking at a disaster.

For example, let’s look at DD Pult. Since forever in NDOU, DD/Darts/PForce/Sub with Ghost Z has been the standard for DD Pult, but this set had fallen out of favor due to the nature of Gambit hard walling it. So, Dragapult users struck back and some have started to run Tera Blast Fighting, and if Kingambit can’t check DD Pult anymore, then nothing is safe.

The counundrum Tera has put our council in cannot be understated, as we haven’t had barely any tiering development since the Zama test, because you can’t logistically try to free Roaring Moon or Zama-C while the entire comminity is just complaining that Tera should be gone.

Final Thoughts

Tera is disliked nearly universally, and this mechanic should’ve been gone during Mid-January if it wasn’t for a very premature test, and certain individuals who troll voted DNB as well as encouraging others to do the same. It creates a very volatile environment that hurts the most basic principle of competitive mons (the better player should win most times) and I will enthuastically be voting BAN

not gonna bother proofreading so apologies for any typos

Tera is the single most pressing thing about the entire metagame right now and defintiely needs to be suspect tested. And to me, tera has 2 things that have caused it to become a plague to this meta and inhibiting the meta’s development.

1. Beating things you shouldnt beat
This is far and away the most obvious feat, Tera turns matchups that shouldn’t be won, into advantageous situations for the tera user, and without a tera of your own you will usually be floored.

Take this replay from NDWC for example https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-690554

Adriyun has an SD Gliscor but tlenit has a Kyurem, it should be very difficult for this Gliscor to make progress vs tlenit, however, it simply sheds its 4x Ice weakness and becomes a CHECK to Kyurem. This leads to Gliscor easily having this game won by around turn 30 but Adriyun trolls around for 80 turns LOL

2. The fear of Tera, forcing an unreasonable level of scouting.

You can lead correctly, lets say hypothetically leading your Great Tusk into your opponent leading Heatran, but as the Great Tusk user you will switch 90% of the time. Why? Because the 4x Ground-weak Heatran can turn Flying/Grass/Bug and claim your Great Tusk turn 1. I dont have any replays showing this, but my goodness if you play the tier you know this feeling, because doing anything feels risky and unsafe until your opponent has revealed their Tera.

These two reasons are pretty much the two balloons that most gripes with Tera are related to, but here are some more specific reasons.

3. Knowing what’s coming, but no way to stop it.

Here’s another WC replay, where you could’ve walked up siTum, handed them LBN’s Cresselia set, and the game would still be over by turn 20. Knowledge is power in mons, and knowing exactly what your opponent will do but still being at a disadvantage just does not feel condusive to skill.

4. The immense variance allowed by Tera creates way too much to consider in an already crowded tier.

Building ND has always been a challenge, the threats are more farther ranging and there will always be more to consider. Throw in a mechanic that warps the profile of a top threat that invalidates certain defensive cplay, and you are looking at a disaster.

For example, let’s look at DD Pult. Since forever in NDOU, DD/Darts/PForce/Sub with Ghost Z has been the standard for DD Pult, but this set had fallen out of favor due to the nature of Gambit hard walling it. So, Dragapult users struck back and some have started to run Tera Blast Fighting, and if Kingambit can’t check DD Pult anymore, then nothing is safe.

The counundrum Tera has put our council in cannot be understated, as we haven’t had barely any tiering development since the Zama test, because you can’t logistically try to free Roaring Moon or Zama-C while the entire comminity is just complaining that Tera should be gone.

Final Thoughts

Tera is disliked nearly universally, and this mechanic should’ve been gone during Mid-January if it wasn’t for a very premature test, and certain individuals who troll voted DNB as well as encouraging others to do the same. It creates a very volatile environment that hurts the most basic principle of competitive mons (the better player should win most times) and I will enthuastically be voting BAN

not gonna bother proofreading so apologies for any typos

tera allows a lot of strategies and in the same way that Pokemon survive things that couldn't, they also become weak to other things that wouldn't affect them before. In addition, in most cases the most probable tera are known. In addition, the rival can surprise you with a tera and you can do the same. I find it very sad that you do not see further. Dragonite should be 4x weak to ice, if it becomes normal it no longer has this weakness, but it will become weak to fighting. I am sorry that those who are experts do not know how to take advantage of the tera in their favor

 

[Angolo390]

Tera should be quickbanned from Natdex, this tier already have mega and z-moves as generational gimmick, no need to wasting time on another suspect test. Or if you like democracy, you can just re-vote with the previous user that have reqs on the first suspect test. I'm gladly vote BAN again. But if you make another 2 weeks 80 GXE suspect test, I'm out.

You don't want a suspect because you're afraid that what you want won't come out... painful
Maybe if what you want doesn't come out, it's because most people have realized the thousands of strategies it provides and the possibility of using Pokemon in a different way. but you like a flat game where you know everything by heart to feel more pro

 

[seth]

tera allows a lot of strategies and in the same way that Pokemon survive things that couldn't, they also become weak to other things that wouldn't affect them before. In addition, in most cases the most probable tera are known. In addition, the rival can surprise you with a tera and you can do the same. I find it very sad that you do not see further. Dragonite should be 4x weak to ice, if it becomes normal it no longer has this weakness, but it will become weak to fighting. I am sorry that those who are experts do not know how to take advantage of the tera in their favor

View attachment 528365

Gonna be mostly echoing this post but I wholeheartedly agree. Terasyilization may at first glance come off as broken.. sure sure Double stab and what have you but this has proven to be a Double edged sword for the tera user. Yes you maycahle to change your type chart completely but this makes you weak to things you normally wouldn’t be. Your rival will also be able to terasyilize as well, so it evens out. Let’s take Bolcarona as an example. You can tera water or ground and defeat what would be a solid answer in heatran, but in turn you are now weak to Grass, which you wouldn’t be.

I think I speak for everyone when I say: I will be voting DO NOT BAN on terastilization.

 

[LBN]

You don't want a suspect because you're afraid that what you want won't come out... painful
Maybe if what you want doesn't come out, it's because most people have realized the thousands of strategies it provides and the possibility of using Pokemon in a different way. but you like a flat game where you know everything by heart to feel more pro

Yea considering the only posts you've ever made have been about defending the dynamax forms and now defending tera, I'm sorry I have zero reason to assume you have any intention of actually contributing anything to this discussion other than the ad hominem you've used on almost each post you've made while sounding like you trying to larp as sephiroth.

As for tera itself, it's dumb. On paper you can technically call out a tera, but the problem lies that's its exactly that, on paper. I will admit that when someone tera's has become slightly more telegraphed, and you can force teras. The issue lies in that there's no consistent counterplay anymore, and it borders impossible to deal with every mon in the tier, and some pokemon like Volcarona have like, 1 or 2 non splashable checks in the entire tier. The amount of dumb sets that've arose or took off since the first suspect is astonishing to nobody. Polteageist, Cresselia, Latios, Mew, Gliscor, Kyurem, and more are incredibly dumb with tera, and that doesn't include the numerous pokemon we've banned that aren't broken without it, like Melmetal and Regieleki.

I've played this tier a ton, and while I can say its a partially fun mechanic, it's very clear that national dex formats do not have the counterplay to these options and sweepers, warping and making the tier far less popular overall. Ban it.

 

[oopsalldeoxys]

What is your stance on Tera in the metagame?
As previously mentioned it's just WAYYYYY too high variance. You already can't feasibly prep to beat every threat in the meta, tera just stacks too much on the builder. It just creates this chaotic mess where nothing counters or even checks anything, and it majorly takes away from what I believe to be the most important part of mons being teambuilding.

Do you think Tera should be retested? Why?
Absolutely. Personally I think it should be banned straight up but yes for the above reasons. The one caveat is we would probably also have to retest/unban all of the banned Pokemon

What do you think has changed since the original suspect test, which ended in a no ban vote, that would justify retesting Tera?
I think we've all had enough time to play with our new toy and realize it's just an unhealthy element to the game. Ban tera

Edit: I changed my answer, I don't think tera should be retested I think it should be quick banned effective immediately smile

 

[Kyo]

Tera should be quickbanned from Natdex, this tier already have mega and z-moves as generational gimmick, no need to wasting time on another suspect test. Or if you like democracy, you can just re-vote with the previous user that have reqs on the first suspect test. I'm gladly vote BAN again. But if you make another 2 weeks 80 GXE suspect test, I'm out.

While I have nothing against your firmly negative opinion towards Tera, I have to disagree with re-voting using the list of previous qualifiers. It has been more than 6 months now since the original Tera suspect, and any number of active contributors could have joined or departed from the Nat Dex community in that time. This approach not only excludes new users, but also likely leaves us with a not insignificant number of "abstain" votes from anyone who achieved reqs in the first test and doesn't come back to vote again. I'm not particularly comfortable with allowing people to voice their opinions in this thread while simultaneously not allowing them to contribute directly to the outcome of such a defining mechanic just because they weren't active in the tier at the very start of the generation.

 

[TheRainQueen]

Gonna be mostly echoing this post but I wholeheartedly agree. Terasyilization may at first glance come off as broken.. sure sure Double stab and what have you but this has proven to be a Double edged sword for the tera user. Yes you maycahle to change your type chart completely but this makes you weak to things you normally wouldn’t be. Your rival will also be able to terasyilize as well, so it evens out. Let’s take Bolcarona as an example. You can tera water or ground and defeat what would be a solid answer in heatran, but in turn you are now weak to Grass, which you wouldn’t be.

I think I speak for everyone when I say: I will be voting DO NOT BAN on terastilization.

I understand the point here, but I think what we mostly see is that the one-time change is worth at minimum a free KO, which is often easy to translate to a win - either along the lines of

• Pult teras fight/dragon to kill a gambit, dies, then lele sweeps OR
• Pult teras to kill gambit, then wins, because a bulky strong mon that resists both stabs and has priority and trapping should really be enough of an answer in the builder.

Also some mons that would be manageable due to their typing, like cress or garg, use tera to become a problem and matchup check your opponent. Not all types are created equal, and the downside from turning from rock to fairy is really negligible. Both of these mons, and others like fairy glisc, can and have won multiple tournament games with very little positioning/support required.

I do think bringing up the potential risk of tera is interesting! and not something ppl have really talked about. But if tera had such a significant downside you wouldn't see it used very often, impacting the meta so much, and winning so many games on its own.(see Sasha's post for examples).

Also double stab is a really big deal.

 

[Sonar]

tera allows a lot of strategies and in the same way that Pokemon survive things that couldn't, they also become weak to other things that wouldn't affect them before. In addition, in most cases the most probable tera are known. In addition, the rival can surprise you with a tera and you can do the same. I find it very sad that you do not see further. Dragonite should be 4x weak to ice, if it becomes normal it no longer has this weakness, but it will become weak to fighting. I am sorry that those who are experts do not know how to take advantage of the tera in their favor

View attachment 528365

Yes but the issue is the things that they would be weak to can be impossible to account for in the teambuilder because more or less it means there are 18 different types a pokemon to come, meaning it's impossible to prepare for every single set.

 

[Fenghuang]

Yes but the issue is the things that they would be weak to can be impossible to account for in the teambuilder because more or less it means there are 18 different types a pokemon to come, meaning it's impossible to prepare for every single set.

The counterpoint is that you have 6 pokemon and all of them can defensive or offensive terra, and for each mon it won't have 18 different viable terra types with their own unique counters it will have like, 6 at the absolute maximum, probably more like 3. This makes team building a little harder, because your terra types have to cover opposing sets and also work as sets on their own, but imo this has felt more freeform than it has felt constraining.

Edit: fwiw if it came to a suspect I would vote to ban, but I don't think it's obviously bad.

 

[hidin]

 

[low ladder Erti]

What is your stance on Tera in the metagame?

The idea in a whole is a fun idea, it shows alot of new fun tatics to the meta for low ladder stratergies. Sadly; this is not where it was pushed on in the meta. Frequently we've been in trouble with broken abusers with tera typing to back it up, for an example:
Cresselia @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Moonlight
- Stored Power
This is one of the mons that should not be allowed to be this strong at the moment, using tera poison it negates most of it's weaknesses and is only weak to ground, which cannot be affected due to Levitate. This is one of the reasons why fat/balance is really busted in the laddering atm due to having stupidly strong and low iq plays.

ALL BARK (Zamazenta) @ Choice Band
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Crunch
- Wild Charge
- Ice Fang

Another mon that abuses the tera even if it's just the same stab, it powers close combat and makes it a force to be recken with.


Do you think Tera should be retested? Why?

I defiently think it should, its stupid for the meta.

What do you think has changed since the original suspect test, which ended in a no ban vote, that would justify retesting Tera?

Shows that tera takes 0 skill and shoulve been banned in the first place.