SV UU Suspect Process R4 - so bitter

[Lily]

​

Hiya! The survey that went up earlier this week spoke pretty clearly about the community wanting a suspect test for Ceruledge!


Ceruledge is a polarising Pokemon, to say the least. It's very much a feast or a famine when it comes to how it runs away with games; sometimes you'll run into a Garganacl or Mandibuzz and want to cry, and other times you'll run into 6 physical attackers, immediately get +2 +2, and the game might as well be over. Ceruledge's STAB combo is notoriously difficult to resist. The list of viable Pokemon that manages boils down to Garganacl, Greninja, Tyranitar, Hydreigon, Incineroar, and maaaaybe Crawdaunt. That's a pretty short list for something so strong. Combine that with Ceruledge's high-power Poltergeist, access to Swords Dance, and the dynamic brought by Weak Armour - particularly frustrating given Ceruledge's naturally excellent special bulk - and it's not too hard to see why it's become such a hot topic lately, from its sweeping to its fashion sense.

Checking Ceruledge offensively is a struggle because there just aren't any Choice Scarf users that can do it. They're simply all too slow, so you're essentially limited to priority users if it gets a Weak Armour boost, and that's not particularly easy when you consider Ceruledge's typing; it resists Bullet Punch from Scizor, it's immune to Hisuian Arcanine's Extreme Speed, and it even quad resists Lokix's First Impression, so you still have to play Sucker Punch mindgames. Fortunately there are a few Aqua Jet users and Greninja's Water Shuriken can pick off a weakened Ceruledge, but it is still brutal to deal with in this sense. Defensively, there are a few options; Bitter Blade, while incredibly useful, isn't the strongest move in the world, so bulky Ghost resists like Mandibuzz and Ursaluna can temporarily check a Ceruledge even if it has boosted, and there are some solid counters like Garganacl and Tyranitar outside of the rare Close Combat. However, considering how many setup opportunities Ceruledge can find with its good bulk and typing, it's still exceptionally difficult to deal with it unless you have one of these specialised answers.

So given all of this, it's not hard to see why Ceruledge is on the chopping block. What do you think we should do with it?

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The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 78 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 82. As always, needing more than 50 games to 78 GXE is fine.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
78	50
78.2	49
78.4	48
78.6	47
78.8	46
79	45
79.2	44
79.4	43
79.6	42
79.8	41
80	40
80.2	39
80.4	38
80.6	37
80.8	36
81	35
81.2	34
81.4	33
81.6	32
81.8	31
82	30

The test will operate as always. There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, the standard UU ladder will remain open. Those who wish to participate in this suspect test will instead use a fresh, suspect-specific alt. All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! UU ladder on a fresh alt with the following format: "UU4KA (Nick)." For example, I might register the alt UU4KA Aislinn to ladder with. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.

Participants will have until Sunday, January 28th at 7:00 PM GMT -5 to meet voting requirements and post in the Alt Identification Thread. PLEASE DO NOT POST YOUR CONFIRMED SUSPECT RESULTS HERE - there is a dedicated thread for identifying your suspect results. Happy laddering!

 

[Mossy Sandwich]

Hi I got reqs, here's the team.


I'll be voting ban on Ceruledge unless something big changes, but I'll try to explain how I feel towards it. This is the only team I built with it, so I haven't seen as much from it under Screens and will mostly be discussing aspects concerning Hazard Stack HO.

Ceruledge @ Air Balloon
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bitter Blade
- Poltergeist
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance
This set I think is especially good both as a spinblocker and to better force "checkmate" endgames which Ceruledge is already good at. An immunity to Rapid Spin and Earthquake basically makes Treads unable to Spin for at least 2 turns which is usually enough to allow you to keep hazards off as it will often go down pretty quickly against this type of teams. If it Knocks as you SD, you're than at +2/+2 in a position to outright win the game if you have a good matchup or if your opponent is not careful. Your opponent's options against this set with Treads are all bad because not one-shotting Ceruledge with a physical move can often be a death sentence and you strip them of the ability to do so. Another thing this set can do is turn Garchomp into complete setup fodder with Tera Fairy and balloon intact. Whether their plan is to phaze you out with Dragon Tail or to take advantage of Weak Armor's Defense drops with Scale Shot, your opponent will usually feel safe to hit you with Garchomp's Dragon move which this set can take advantage of to get to +2 or +4. Tera Fairy also allows you to do a couple of extra things like tank random Knock Offs and beat Mandibuzz switching into you, but regardless, you can see how a Ground immunity would allow Ceruledge to get your opponent into some "damned if you do damned if you don't" situations. These checkmate situations are rather common with Ceruledge as Weak Armor makes hitting it a good thing for its user, but letting it stay alive will just result in it dealing major damage uncontested. If anything, at least it makes it more vulnerable to priority, but Weak Armor basically limits the options against an already threatening wallbreaker even more.

Obviously though, Ceruledge has some switch-ins, most notably Garganacl, Tyranitar, Greninja, Mandibuzz as well as checks like Arcanine-Hisui. However, what I find fascinating about these is that, in order to beat Ceruledge, they need to already be healthy or they need to sacrifice a serious amount of health to do so. I would like to point out its synergy with Moltres-G in this regard, especially concerning Rock-Types as they both tend to be able to weaken a target for the other. For example, in multiple games, I've used Ceruledge paired with hazards to soften up Tyranitar to open up room for a Goltres sweep later on as well as the other way around concerning Garganacl. Ceruledge's power is a bit too overwhelming, meaning its counters can't properly perform duties besides countering it as they'll open themselves up otherwise. Plus, it's not like you want to take 70% on your Harcanine or 45% on your Greninja from a +0 Poltergeist switching in. This is not to mention that Close Combat just nukes all of these besides Mandi and, with how explosive Ceruledge is, scouting this move is very hard. Paired with its natural defensive immunity (2 Immunities and 7 Resists!) and Bitter Blade's recovery, Ceruledge can force you into uncomfortable situations, squeeze resources out of you all the while remaining healthy enough to come back in later to do the same thing.

I'm sorry if these thoughts seem a bit scattered, but anyway short of it is that Ceruledge hits hard and can force some really awkward situations with its surprisingly good defensive profile, Bitter Blade's recovery and Weak Armor. It can work around its counters surprisingly well too. With the meta having as many strong threats as it does, I think getting rid of this can only improve the tier, giving a bit more breathing room in the teambuilder and against offensive teams.

 

[Geopolitics]

Just hit reqs (shoutout to my weekend class happening right now - Professor Cox is a beast) and thought I'd share some thoughts.

Reqs Team

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Wish
- Iron Head
- U-turn

Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge
- Brick Break
- Ice Punch

Brambleghast @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Wind Rider
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Poltergeist
- Strength Sap
- Rapid Spin

Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Flip Turn
- Secret Sword
- Vacuum Wave

Latios @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Luster Purge
- Draco Meteor
- Recover

Azumarill @ Assault Vest
Ability: Huge Power
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Play Rough
- Aqua Jet
- Ice Spinner

I didn't actually use Ceruledge on my team - but I did stack my team with some Pokemon that I felt did well against it. Even with some definite checks (bulky ttar + wish support, specs keldeo), Ceruledge was oftentimes completely unmanageable.

Ceruledge, in addition to having a few strong tera types, can completely run away with games. I think SD and Bitter Blade are absolutely essential moves, but the other two slots are pretty free to be occupied by one of two ghost STABs (Sneak or Poltergeist) or even slipping in something like Close Combat to blow away traditional checks.

Further, Ceruledge has a number of items it can run which multiply its difficulty to deal with. While each of its relevant items requires some form of support, this support isn't the type where you have to completely structure your team around it (for example, needing a sand setter for a sand rush user). Instead, it just needs the type of support that is prevalent on almost every team (for example, hazard support). Each item gives Ceruledge a different dimension (either preventing hazard chip with HDB, insulating from priority with Sash) and makes Ceruledge extremely splashable.

I've spent most of the day looking through the usage rates while I ladder. I made this post dedicated to my findings as it relates to countering Greninja. I think that really illuminated the difference between a threat (Greninja) and something that feels broken (Ceruledge). Greninja has a number of either soft checks or outright counters based upon its moveslot and what type of Pokemon you want to put on your team. If you lose to Greninja, there's a chance it just overpowered you - but there's also a chance that the Greninja player was able to just wear down your checks based upon the composition of your team. Ceruledge, by contrast, feels like it has about three reliable counters (imo Ttar, Quag, and Mandi) who aren't really as splashable as many would like (thereby being really restricting to teambuilding). Tyranitar has its own share of problems - it gets nuked by CC and can pretty easily get worn down. I just don't think the meta is in a good spot where you have to either run Quag or Mandi to avoid getting steamrolled by the runaway train that is Ceruledge.

TL;DR: I will likely be voting ban unless smarter players can reinvent the wheel in the next week.

Been a while since I've participated in a suspect, not sure where to put this...

 

[NobodyActually]

Reqs done even tho im stupid and forgot the prefix. Anyways ceruledge is broken but I feel like its best to wait a bit for the metagame to stabalize and for us to get drops in February. For that reason I am going to be voting dnb Used this cool rain team which I think is very good right now partially because people arent prepping for rain. https://pokepast.es/25aa03dc1a666f05

 

[Mossy Sandwich]

Reqs done even tho im stupid and forgot the prefix. Anyways ceruledge is broken but I feel like its best to wait a bit for the metagame to stabalize and for us to get drops in February. For that reason I am going to be voting dnb Used this cool rain team which I think is very good right now partially because people arent prepping for rain. https://pokepast.es/25aa03dc1a666f05
View attachment 594564

fwiw, council accounted for potential drops and requested usage stats for January so far to see if the potential drops would affect Ceruledge. The only one that can even be considered decent into it is Toxapex which is in the same boat as Alomomola where it can take a hit, but can't kill it and gets overwhelmed by Poltergeist so it can't really counter it. Everything else gets diced up.

Basically, council has accounted for the possibility of drops making Ceruledge balanced and it doesn't seem likely, so best to vote with the current meta in mind.

Also, just letting you know that a verification thread will go up eventually and that's where you gotta post this screenshot to qualify, so make sure not to miss that when it goes up.

 

[Pengui123]

Ceruledge can pretty much 6-0 teams thru checks with the right set. Alo can be beaten if the ledge player has hazards up and teraes ghost (+2 252 Atk Tera Ghost Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 388-458 (72.6 - 85.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes). Alo is also tasked with handling a lot of mons so it's likely to have been chipped and is in range. Azumarill can also be beaten with tera grass (+2 252 Atk Tera Grass Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 421-496 (113.7 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO)(252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Grass Ceruledge: 108-128 (37.1 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO). "But can't any mon bypass their counter with tera?" you ask. Yes but with ceruledge's absurdly high power, after its counters are gone the rest of the opponent's team will just get oneshotted with poltergeist and cc. Bitter blade also nullifies the weakness to common sash counters like rocks, sandstorm, rocky helmet etc.

 

[sufys]

i used https://pokepast.es/a0a41034068c0ea8


to complete this reqs run. definitely don't use this team (it's bad) but there you go.

as for ceruledge, i'm torn on it somewhat. on one hand you find that it often puts opponents into a zugzwang-esque position with weak armor, but on the other hand it has a decent amount of counterplay imo. bulky and stick out as very solid checks, as well as and (notwithstanding cc) , as well as the myriad of prio options in the tier, gren, azu, even resisted prio from stuff like scizor and lokix will be able to pick off ceru fairly easily when weak armor has been proc'd.

am probably leaning dnb but am definitely gonna read the discourse here to make a more informed decision because i never touched this tier until this suspect lmao

fwiw

 

[termi]

I'm still undecided on Ceruledge, but I see a lot of support for a ban coming from the community. What I'm not seeing, however, is hard evidence. Instead, the arguments I've seen are framed around a lot of hypotheticals: if Ceruledge is the right set and if it has the right tera type and if it gets setup opportunity and if the opponent is running this or that specific check and if there are no hazards on the Ceruledge user's side of the field, it just 6-0s. But how often does this happen in practice? Ceruledge's defensive typing is awkward to say the least, sporting 5 weaknesses to common offensive typings. Of the Pokemon in the High and Good tiers of the viability list, all mons but (non-Tera Ground/Water) Iron Moth and Jirachi* either commonly run moves to hit Ceruledge supereffectively or can hit it with strong STAB special attacks that make Ceruledge easy to revenge kill. As a result, in order to trigger Weak Armor and get that game-ending potential it is being suspected for, it is highly dependent on having the right tera type to tank the move of whatever physical attacker is front of it and trigger its ability - preferably with enough health to spare to be outside of the range of this or that priority move. And it is with this in mind that I protest this line of argument that Ceruledge can just kinda get past any of its numerous checks so easily, because while it theoretically can, it is highly dependent on getting the right matchups and the right field conditions in order to take full advantage of this. Yes, Tera Ghost and Tera Fire can help it break past its defensive checks, but these types are not helpful defensively and getting a Weak Armor boost is difficult. Yes, Close Combat can help it break past (non-tera'd) Garganacl and Tyranitar, but only if you are willing to make your matchup vs offense (if forgoing Sneak) or your matchup vs bulkier teams (if forgoing Poltergeist) generally worse. Yes, Balloon + Tera Fairy turns most Chomps and Treads into setup fodder, but Balloon sets are very telegraphed and require good prediction or team support so that it comes in with its Balloon unpopped vs a mon it has a favorable matchup against.

It is not like you have to go out of your way in the builder to have checks to Ceruledge either. Personally I've found that as long as I have at least something that can outspeed unboosted Ceruledge and eat a +2 Sneak, I don't have to plan around it much in the builder. Garchomp is a top 5 mon in the tier and annoys Ceruledge in many ways, whether it is through Scale Shot to break through sash sets, Dragon Tail to phaze it out, or simply EQ to OHKO or heavily damage most Ceru sets. It also has Rough Skin and potentially Rocky Helmet to help it take out weakened Ceruledge if it clicks Sneak or Bitter Blade. Besides this, we have several powerful and popular priority users that can revenge kill it: Greninja (also can eat any one hit from Ceru besides CC), Azumarill, Lokix, and - after it has tera'd - Scizor and Metagross (you may have to tera the latter to not get Sneaked on though). Defensively, things get a little dicier and defensive teams can more easily get overwhelmed by a snowballing Ceru as they tend to have less hard hitters and prio options to beat it back, but there's still several decent checks like the aforementioned Garg and Ttar, Rhyperior (who can even tank a +2 CC from full), Mandibuzz (only struggles with Tera Fairy and Sash sets), and several bulky Waters. I would also like to add that I don't find balance to be great right now and this only has so much to do with Ceruledge, as such teams are generally just liable to get overwhelmed by the offensive onslaught of threats like Latios, Ogerpon-C, SD Chomp, Keldeo etc. Beyond all of aforementioned checks, it's far from impossible to play around Ceruledge with faster soft checks as long as you don't give it a free SD or Weak Armor boost. Zapdos can annoy it with strong special hits and Static, threats like Keldeo, Terrakion, H-Arcanine, Rotom-W, and several other threats outspeed and threaten it with an OHKO, and many more circumstantial counterplay exists besides these.

What I'd like to see are some decent quality replays that demonstrate that Ceruledge does all that people say it does in practice, because the only times I've seen Ceruledge pull off the sweeps it's capable of was on ladder, and admittedly I was less convinced in these situations that Ceruledge was obviously busted than that my opponent simply made mistakes that led to an L. On the other hand, if I look at the replays from the recent UUSA vs the world tournament, currently the best resource of fairly high-quality UU gaming in the current metagame, I do not see Ceruledge getting out of hand basically ever. I'm not going to go over each individual replay right now, but in most of these games Ceruledge either picks up one or two (revenge) kills before getting RK'd or forced out, or it doesn't really find the opportunity to come out until the end and then doesn't find itself in a position to where it can set up a sweep. The one replay where Ceruledge arguably does something silly is in g1 of the Aislinn vs starmaster series, where Aislinn is using a rather niche Ceruledge set (BU Lefties w/ Tera Normal) that manages to 1v1 a Garganacl before also taking starmaster's Ditto down due to a surprise tera type. It should be noted that she only gets to do this here because starmaster decides to U-Turn with a +2 Torn instead of clicking Bleakwind Storm. Not to downplay Ceruledge's threat level, it's obviously really strong and I can see myself voting ban after all, but I can't do so in the absence of replays where good players doing what they can to prevent a Ceru sweep nevertheless get overwhelmed by it.

*somewhat offtopic rant on Jirachi:

Hide

Jirachi, by the way, is terrible. Being the freest Ceruledge setup bait in the world is bad enough, but even outside of that, it has a lot of undesirable qualities. It is entirely dependent on rather weak contact moves to do damage, which is kind of a liability in a meta where contact moves are very easy to punish (Ceruledge Weak Armor, Zapdos Static, Rocky Helmet Chomp/Mola/Shroom). This prevents Scarf sets from easily running through teams by Iron Head flinching its way through checks, which is one of the main reasons you'd wanna run Scarf Rachi anyway. Scarf, by the way, also is undesirable in that it falls short of being able to revenge kill +1 Chomp. More utility-oriented sets are even more prone to letting things get in more or less for free, including some of the most common and best mons in the meta like Zapdos, Iron Treads, TankChomp, and even Scizor. Having Rachi as a part of your defensive core forces the rest of your team in an awkward position where it is necessary to have reliable, long-term counterplay to all of said threats (and more). That Jirachi gets to be considered "good" in this metagame is, for one, wrong, but for two, could only the case because it is one of the few somewhat reliable Latios switchins we have - perhaps a sign that Latios is really what ought to go, as it is much better than Ceruledge at bumping mediocrities up to viability. But I digress.

 

[NobodyActually]

fwiw, council accounted for potential drops and requested usage stats for January so far to see if the potential drops would affect Ceruledge. The only one that can even be considered decent into it is Toxapex which is in the same boat as Alomomola where it can take a hit, but can't kill it and gets overwhelmed by Poltergeist so it can't really counter it. Everything else gets diced up.

Basically, council has accounted for the possibility of drops making Ceruledge balanced and it doesn't seem likely, so best to vote with the current meta in mind.

Yeah I know but its more of leaving and hazards being impossible to get off as well as phys def and (unsure of this one). If you are running non sash it is very easy to swap in something that can ohko it and as long as you are not stupid there is sufficient counterplay and a variety of checks (garg, no item mons, knocked mola etc) even if they can be worn down by ho. Sneak is a very weak move even at +2 that struggles to do much against faster mons. Anyways, I can see why it would be broken to some people right now but I think it is fine for the metagame, now and later on :). Also just posted the screenshot because other people were posting about completing reqs.

 

[Mossy Sandwich]

What I'd like to see are some decent quality replays that demonstrate that Ceruledge does all that people say it does in practice, because the only times I've seen Ceruledge pull off the sweeps it's capable of was on ladder, and admittedly I was less convinced in these situations that Ceruledge was obviously busted than that my opponent simply made mistakes that led to an L. On the other hand, if I look at the replays from the recent UUSA vs the world tournament, currently the best resource of fairly high-quality UU gaming in the current metagame, I do not see Ceruledge getting out of hand basically ever.

I wouldn't base the quality of a replay on whether it was from a ladder or tour game as some ladder games can actually be pretty interesting and you also get some tour games where you see Ceruledge paired with Knock Off users which leads to some pretty underwhelming games for it as you might expect. Anyway, there's one set in the UU championships that stands out so far with Ceruledge having a very notable showing, that being JustFranco against BigFatMantis. Gonna go over each game real quick.

- In game 1, Franco's Ceruledge essentially wins on preview. BFM probably could've tried playing around it differently with its Alomomola either through not giving it a Weak Armor boost or through not letting it get a second SD, but with BFM running a somewhat passive team without priority, he's very ill-prepared for Ceruledge which just 6-0s.

- In game 2, BFM uses a Taunt+BU set that manages to get through one of Ceruledge's best answers in Quagsire and, by taking 2 kills and softening up Franco's team with it, he's able to set up a clean endgame for Double Dance Diancie. Taunt+BU, while rare, is a set that should still be considered as it can flip the usual counterplay for Ceruledge around to a scary extent.

- Game 3 is a bit weirder as both players are using some kind of HO with Ceruledge and we see a few interesting plays. On turn 7/8 you can see how Ceruledge's defensive profile can be used for HO teams, using it to switch into Iron Moth and then double-switching to deal with the only good potential switch-in to Ledge being Chomp. While BFM gets outplayed pretty hard in the following turns, it gives Treads a free turn to play around. Just after that, we see Franco using Tera to get to +6 and, while that 4th Swords Dance is honestly just greedy, it does essentially get 2 kills at that point. It's not necessarily an impressive game for either Ceruledges, but it's an interesting replay to look at the interactions it can lead to.

Anyway with so little tournament games especially with UUSA vs RoW being in an underdeveloped meta and a lot of games taking place before the Iron Hands/Blaziken/Latias bans, it's a bit hard to go off of just these. Ladder should also be considered in the tier's tiering process, it's where the majority of games are played after all, even if a lot of them include subpar plays.

 

[romanji]

Gonna preface this by saying that I’m currently in another country with spotty connection, so I might not get reqs. Still wanted to get my thoughts out regardless.


Though the editions of faster threats like Latios and Keldeo, as well as bulkier foes like Mandibuzz and Garganacl make life difficult for Ceruledge the main part of its brokenness remains the same, its ability to get the +2 in Attack and Speed on the right turn to kill off the game completely. Having the tera saved for the perfect moment can also take care of its traditional checks quite easily.

Ghost boosts your already insanely strong Poltergeist gives you the nuke to brute force through Mola and even Quag.

Fairy gives the set up opportunities on Scale/DTail from Garchomp and set up for free on Mandibuzz.

Grass lets you get the Weak Armor boost on Garchomp EQ and revenge kill Greninja with +2 Poltergeist into Shadow Sneak.

Hyper offense of all varieties enjoy Ceru’s presences since they all are able to help it get a sweep off. Boots sets on screens teams allow it to nearly guarantee Weak Armor and more likely than not a Swords Dance as well. Psychic Terrain with Sash allows it to nearly always guarantee a boost on anything, and Mossy Sandwich already pointed out its strengths more in depth on hazard stack.

While there are a ton of positives, there are ways around. Getting in faster mons on SD turns/ resistances with mons like Keldeo, Latios (if you tera on Shadow Sneak), and Greninja. The problem is that they would all get hit hard if it chooses to attack. Slower resists like Ttar and Garg can switch in but just have to pray that it’s not CC, often leaving your plans of checking it up to hoping the Ceruledge doesn’t have the coverage for you. This is far too much of a strain on both teambuilding and play in general for this to be healthy in the tier.

If I get stable connection, I’ll be voting ban pretty easily, as getting rid of this can only benefit the tier’s health.

 

[termi]

- In game 1, Franco's Ceruledge essentially wins on preview. BFM probably could've tried playing around it differently with its Alomomola either through not giving it a Weak Armor boost or through not letting it get a second SD, but with BFM running a somewhat passive team without priority, he's very ill-prepared for Ceruledge which just 6-0s.

Yeah so I don't think this shows anything special, if you build a team that's incredibly weak to a top tier sweeper then the predictable result is that you get swept by it. And as you said he also didn't play it well by allowing the Ceruledge both two SDs and a Weak Armor boost.

- In game 2, BFM uses a Taunt+BU set that manages to get through one of Ceruledge's best answers in Quagsire and, by taking 2 kills and softening up Franco's team with it, he's able to set up a clean endgame for Double Dance Diancie. Taunt+BU, while rare, is a set that should still be considered as it can flip the usual counterplay for Ceruledge around to a scary extent.

It's a good set! It also basically had a perfect matchup here, I can't think of many things that can break stall as effectively as Taunt + BU Ceruledge. Don't see this as an issue really, these matchups are something you have to accept when running stall, especially in metas that are already hostile to the playstyle.

Anyway with so little tournament games especially with UUSA vs RoW being in an underdeveloped meta and a lot of games taking place before the Iron Hands/Blaziken/Latias bans, it's a bit hard to go off of just these. Ladder should also be considered in the tier's tiering process, it's where the majority of games are played after all, even if a lot of them include subpar plays.

Oh my point was not that ladder should be ignored as such, good games do take place on ladder. It's just that in my personal experience on ladder I haven't had any games where it felt like Ceruledge sorta stole a game away. Tournaments remain a more reliable gauge for this sort of thing simply because they're a supply of public replays, often between relatively good players, whereas the amount of ladder games which are both of a high quality and publicly accessible is dependent on how much people are willing to save and post them as evidence (so anyone reading this, see this as an invitation to do so, seeing as we have little to go off tournament-wise so far).

 

[BidoofGangsta]

Hello! This is my first time getting reqs so I’m just happy to be here. This is the team I used: https://pokepast.es/1e538e0ef423e6ff

As other people have said, Ceruledge and G-Moltres are a super potent combo especially under screens. The way Ceruledge’s Tera can be tweaked to checkmate a supposed counter is silly and unhealthy for UU in my opinion. This team only cemented my belief that G-Moltres and Iron Moth need to be looked at too.

Oops I posted my identification here sorry.

 

[ThatOneApple]

Got reqs with this team mossy posted

Hi I got reqs, here's the team.

Alongside this one from martyr notily with cm lorb reun over trick sticky barb

https://pokepast.es/8f8eabb4321711e0

Tbh i really dont think i want to explain the issues i have with ledge again so ill just link my previous post about it

- 5
Ive gone into this a lot but i just hate this dude's existence, i feel like it forces such unhealthy interactions and dynamics in both the builder and the battle and is probably the main issue i have w the tier rn. The reason i feel this way is because of the difference in its checks depending on its moves/set. For example, if your check is and it has cc, youre getting clocked, if your workaround is clocking it with and then picking it off and it has sneak, that plan goes out the window. Hell, ive even seen it beat due to it being bulk up taunt by just setting up and spamming bitter blade for healing.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-739397
This replay gives an example of ledge being really just... dumb. Franco has AND , but quag got 1v1'd and mola was just fodder the moment it tera'd, while lycan likely wouldnt have been able to get in safely fast enough before it got all those boosts in order to revenge kill it unless franco just happened to know it was taunt bulk up. In fact, depending on the spread, ledge probably couldve claimed another mon had it not gotten full para'd on turn 34 given that it wouldve been at more hp to be able to live a hit from either zap or lycan.

(these calcs use the standard OU spread as a reference, with slight tweaks to be able to outrun 0 speed quag even while paralyzed)
252 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Tera Fairy Ceruledge: 129-153 (36.4 - 43.2%)
252 Atk Life Orb Lycanroc-Dusk Stone Edge vs. +3 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Ceruledge: 97-114 (27.4 - 32.2%)

And heres the thing, that ledge set gets beat down by ttar pretty easily right? There lies my issue, youre not always going to HAVE ttar, and even if you do, if its a cc set, that doesnt work as a check. Mola+prio beats down sd weak armor pretty well right? But youre not always going to HAVE mola.

Maybe im being a bit overdramatic, but the major issue with this mon is just that its different sets/move options constrain the builder and force very awkward interactions in the battle that i really think this tier could do without.

TLDR: The mon forces way too much strain on teambuilding and makes in battle plays jank to do as a result of its ability to flip the script on many things meant to check it by using different tera types, items, moves, or even a full on different set with bu taunt. Overall the tier loses nothing by removing this mon and its too unreasonable to work around without compromising other matchups, easy ban.

 

[ThatOneApple]

Im bored and have free time so im gonna address dnb arguments (idk if this counts as a double post considering the time frame but someone can let me know.)

What I'm not seeing, however, is hard evidence. Instead, the arguments I've seen are framed around a lot of hypotheticals: if Ceruledge is the right set and if it has the right tera type and if it gets setup opportunity and if the opponent is running this or that specific check and if there are no hazards on the Ceruledge user's side of the field, it just 6-0s. But how often does this happen in practice?

I understand the sentiment here but you have to understand the strain in the builder caused by stuff like "ttar checks it unless its cc" or "garg checks it unless its bu taunt" and the like. The hypothetical 6-0 isnt even that relevant, no one is saying ledge effortlessly 6-0's teams, but the fact that it CAN if it has the right set while also still being able to blow holes or easily clean if it doesnt really doesnt make it a very nice mon to have around.

Don't see this as an issue really, these matchups are something you have to accept when running stall

I dont think we should let an entire style be invalidated by one mon. Even if stall hates stuff like taunt torn and regenspam fat, it shouldnt just be complete crap. We should look to expand what playstyles are viable and all saying this does is prove that banning ledge is a good thing

Anyways ceruledge is broken but I feel like its best to wait a bit for the metagame to stabalize and for us to get drops in February. For that reason I am going to be voting dnb Used this cool rain team which I think is very good right now partially because people arent prepping for rain

I understand the idea of wanting to wait shifts for meta stabilizing but as mossy said none of the potential shifts really help with ledge at all, and treads rising means that ledge doesnt need to play the dicey game of switching into a treads to preserve its own hazards, making it a lot more easy to keep alive. As for lacking its own removal? Taunt leads arent non existent, could see lead taunt pop up more, and if push comes to shove, boots ledge is always an option, as its bulk isnt abhorrent and reliant on sash. As for stabilizing, im gonna be honest, i dont know how much settling can really be done with ledge around, the guy can likely pull out new stuff over and over.

An example being this set mossy posted, which turns tankchomp into complete fodder unless it runs stone edge or iron head over a hazard, which it really shouldnt for the most part, as vomiting every hazard known to man is tankchomp's main thing.

Ceruledge @ Air Balloon
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bitter Blade
- Poltergeist
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance

Now im gonna go through the list of checks ive seen listed and explain how ledge can make it not work.

- (See ledge set above)
- Loses to cc
- Iffy into cc variants (cant take bitter blade well if it teras so it has to play a 50/50) and loses to taunt bu
- loses to taunt bu if its tera fairy (which bu taunt tends to be)
(I just threw the next one on bc its what i used to use to fend off ledge)
+ prio user - doesnt work into taunt bu and mola itself can be blown to pieces by the (rarer, but existent) tera ghost sets after just a tiny bit of chip, which mola always tends to have on it.
+2 252 Atk Tera Ghost Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 388-458 (80.6 - 95.2%)

There are offensive checks, but they all have to be very wary to stay out of sneak range, meaning you tend to have to sack something to ledge to avoid the risk of having them getting into sneak range by hard switching (unless you have mola, but that doesnt exactly fit on anything other than fat balance and has bad passivity issues). And sure it could have cc and sneak isnt an issue, but how are you gonna know its cc unless it already sent your ttar to the aether with it? Not to mention the fact that ledge definitely can opt for a tera mixup like dragon for azu jet.

Of course that last point is a bit hypothetical, but overall i feel all allowing ledge to exist in the tier for an extended period does is allow it to experiment and find new ways to mess with supposed checks (see air balloon tera fairy above), and that keeping it around will just cause the problem to get worse and worse. Its better to get it out now than to later, as the tier can develop better without this nuisance plaguing it.

 

[NobodyActually]

I understand the idea of wanting to wait shifts for meta stabilizing but as mossy said none of the potential shifts really help with ledge at all, and treads rising means that ledge doesnt need to play the dicey game of switching into a treads to preserve its own hazards, making it a lot more easy to keep alive. As for lacking its own removal? Taunt leads arent non existent, could see lead taunt pop up more, and if push comes to shove, boots ledge is always an option, as its bulk isnt abhorrent and reliant on sash. As for stabilizing, im gonna be honest, i dont know how much settling can really be done with ledge around, the guy can likely pull out new stuff over and over.

An example being this set mossy posted, which turns tankchomp into complete fodder unless it runs stone edge or iron head over a hazard, which it really shouldnt for the most part, as vomiting every hazard known to man is tankchomp's main thing.


Now im gonna go through the list of checks ive seen listed and explain how ledge can make it not work.

- (See ledge set above)
- Loses to cc
- Iffy into cc variants (cant take bitter blade well if it teras so it has to play a 50/50) and loses to taunt bu
- loses to taunt bu if its tera fairy (which bu taunt tends to be)
(I just threw the next one on bc its what i used to use to fend off ledge)
+ prio user - doesnt work into taunt bu and mola itself can be blown to pieces by the (rarer, but existent) tera ghost sets after just a tiny bit of chip, which mola always tends to have on it.
+2 252 Atk Tera Ghost Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 388-458 (80.6 - 95.2%)

There are offensive checks, but they all have to be very wary to stay out of sneak range, meaning you tend to have to sack something to ledge to avoid the risk of having them getting into sneak range by hard switching (unless you have mola, but that doesnt exactly fit on anything other than fat balance and has bad passivity issues). And sure it could have cc and sneak isnt an issue, but how are you gonna know its cc unless it already sent your ttar to the aether with it? Not to mention the fact that ledge definitely can opt for a tera mixup like dragon for azu jet.

Of course that last point is a bit hypothetical, but overall i feel all allowing ledge to exist in the tier for an extended period does is allow it to experiment and find new ways to mess with supposed checks (see air balloon tera fairy above), and that keeping it around will just cause the problem to get worse and worse. Its better to get it out now than to later, as the tier can develop better without this nuisance plaguing it.

So ceruledge is definitely a top tier mon however imo just falls short of needing a ban. It is very strong but it is in no means too much as it only really thrives on ho which is a risky playstyle.
As for checks:
most people are beginning to adapt and switch out ceruledge when they see balloon. Without balloon ceruledge cant do much against it. Yes you can cheese out some games when they try to d tail but if they are careful enough they will switch for sure.
Cc really isnt that common and as you mentioned sneak is crucial for faster offensive threats. Tyranitar breaks sash and garg on most teams is probably teraing anyways
Taunt bu beating checks is a fake argument. When you see them reveal taunt you can hard switch into something that can answer it (Flip turn for mola which it is almost always clicking) like faster more offensive threats or encore users due to the very predictable moveset and ceruledges horrible speed tier.

While I might have been too optimistic on future tier shifts another major thing to consider is mandi being possibly the only good removal in the tier (which is a horrible matchup for ceruledge).
Also I really do not think boots sets will be any good as it needs an offensive presence that boots cannot provide. As for taunt terrakion I doubt that will be any good when chomp is such a popular lead
Ursaluna also has no checks to all of its sets (sinis loses to sd) but it isn’t necessarily good at all.

 

[ThatOneApple]

most people are beginning to adapt and switch out ceruledge when they see balloon. Without balloon ceruledge cant do much against it. Yes you can cheese out some games when they try to d tail but if they are careful enough they will switch for sure.

The fact that it turns a would be check into fodder is a big issue, as it forces a team that would normally have ledge accounted for into one that needs to place another check in order to fend it off.

Cc really isnt that common and as you mentioned sneak is crucial for faster offensive threats. Tyranitar breaks sash and garg on most teams is probably teraing anyways

Just because CC isnt the most common option doesnt mean these two are safe into it, sash isnt crucial and is often switched for boots in this meta, and did you even read the fact that garg doesnt like taking bitter blade post tera
+2 252 Atk Ceruledge Bitter Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Garganacl: 229-270 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not exactly a comfortable switch with hazards up (and by the way, they WILL be up for the most part, and pretty much always once treads leaves)

Taunt bu beating checks is a fake argument. When you see them reveal taunt you can hard switch into something that can answer it (Flip turn for mola which it is almost always clicking) like faster more offensive threats or encore users due to the very predictable moveset and ceruledges horrible speed tier.

Taunt Bu is a very real set and has demonstrated its ability to mess with these two a good amount, also how exactly can you call it predictable when ive listed many, many mix ups ledge has done. Also ledge doesnt even have a bad speed tier

 

[NobodyActually]

The fact that it turns a would be check into fodder is a big issue, as it forces a team that would normally have ledge accounted for into one that needs to place another check in order to fend it off.

Just because CC isnt the most common option doesnt mean these two are safe into it, sash isnt crucial and is often switched for boots in this meta, and did you even read the fact that garg doesnt like taking bitter blade post tera
+2 252 Atk Ceruledge Bitter Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Garganacl: 229-270 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not exactly a comfortable switch with hazards up (and by the way, they WILL be up for the most part, and pretty much always once treads leaves)


Taunt Bu is a very real set and has demonstrated its ability to mess with these two a good amount, also how exactly can you call it predictable when ive listed many, many mix ups ledge has done. Also ledge doesnt even have a bad speed tier

Chomp was never a ledge check. Polter doesnt make contact and +2 ohkos if ada and roll if not. I mentioned it because you were talking about it.
You are not swapping in a terad garg on a +2 ledge. I meant teraing after if they have cc and id and now you cannot break through. Ttar isnt common so I dont have that much experience.
Bu ceruledge is beaten by other mons that do not answer the more common set and while it is decent it is a different mon altogether than sd so you cannot make the argument that ledge beats mandj and alo. Once you reveal that you have taunt or bu then that set becomes predictable.

Most of cerus answers are offensive anyways and yes its speed tier of 85 is horrible especially when no weak armor

 

[ThatOneApple]

Chomp was never a ledge check. Polter doesnt make contact and +2 ohkos if ada and roll if not. I mentioned it because you were talking about it.
You are not swapping in a terad garg on a +2 ledge. I meant teraing after if they have cc and id and now you cannot break through. Ttar isnt common so I dont have that much experience.

What


Tankchomps is like, one is (usually) of the best ways to beat down ledge. Eq clocks it and even if it doesnt like polter, stopping ledge from healing off broken bitter blade would usually be good enough with chomps higher speed tier.

Bu ceruledge is beaten by other mons that do not answer the more common set and while it is decent it is a different mon altogether than sd so you cannot make the argument that ledge can beats mandi and alo. Once you reveal that you have taunt or bu then that set becomes predictable.

What

Literally just what, like i do not get how you can say "BU is a different mon" bc that is very much still a ledge on my screen. And ledge can still be a bunch of things until it reveals its moves.

Most of cerus answers are offensive anyways and yes its speed tier of 85 is horrible especially when no weak armor

Offensive answers that... dont bust through a fatter spread as easily, which bu ledge has, while having the damage it takes healed off by bitter blade... and the lower speed doesnt really matter because its meant to be fatter

 

[NobodyActually]

What


Tankchomps is like, one is (usually) of the best ways to beat down ledge. Eq clocks it and even if it doesnt like polter, stopping ledge from healing off broken bitter blade would usually be good enough with chomps higher speed tier.


What

Literally just what, like i do not get how you can say "BU is a different mon" bc that is very much still a ledge on my screen. And ledge can still be a bunch of things until it reveals its moves.

Offensive answers that... dont bust through a fatter spread as easily, which bu ledge has, while having the damage it takes healed off by bitter blade... and the lower speed doesnt really matter because its meant to be fatter

Tankchomp is usually a lead and gets chipped which means its probably not taking a +2 jolly polter. You cannot hard swap it in and you only bring it down to sash. +2 polter kills and now you are facing down a +2 +2 ceru. That is not the definition of a check and if the ceru already has a speed boost you are done for.

Most of the people arguing for a ban are talking about sd ceru. Bu ceru functions very differently and yes you do not know the set but bu doesnt have enough explosive power to catch you off guard and you can infer which set they are running by their team. And BU does not do shit against alo when your attacks bounce off it and it flip turns out and is questionable at best against mandi with very telegraphed taunts.

Doesnt matter how fat you are when everything outspeeds you and threatens big damage
(Talking about bu)
And some prio/not getting the boosts fucks you over.
(Talking about sd)
Anyways agree to disagree this is my last post on this thread ive said what i had to say :) ceru def still strong tho a+ s- mon imo
Also forgot to mention this but its hard to run ceru even if its good in a meta where hazards are extremely hard to get off

 

[ThatOneApple]

My last post on this too bc i gotta get dinner and stuff

Tankchomp is usually a lead and gets chipped which means its probably not taking a +2 jolly polter. You cannot hard swap it in and you only bring it down to sash. +2 polter kills and now you are facing down a +2 +2 ceru. That is not the definition of a check and if the ceru already has a speed boost you are done for.

It doesnt tank +2 polter no but it switches in as ledge boosts and puts ledge in a tough spot, the issue with it as a check isnt that it doesnt eat +2 polter, but the fact that balloon ledge turns into a fodder as i have said. Yes if sash is kept intact it cant really threaten to ohko it.... wait thats a point to ban ledge... did i just get rabbit season duck seasoned

And BU does not do shit against alo when your attacks bounce off it and it flip turns out and is questionable at best against mandi with very telegraphed taunts.

Alo's flip turn doinks off of BU as it boosts up (especially with tera involved), and there isnt much thats safe into a ledge thats at near full health with +2 attack +2 defense (1 boost as mola came in and another as mola pivots out). As for mandi and the telegraphed taunts... uh... why does it matter if its telegraphed? I stated that ledge tends to need tera fairy to beat that down but it doesnt realistically matter if its telegraphed if there isnt anything mandi can do about it.

Last point that i just wanted to throw on there, but mandi tends to be a bit more sp def oriented to better handle threats like and . This means that its needed to handle a larger list of threats, and is thus a lot easier to overwhelm by just... hitting it a lot. Which can cause issues for it when it comes to checking ledge, both because it has less physical bulk, and because its harder to keep healthy enough to withstand a +2 bitter blade
Calc for reference
+2 252 Atk Ceruledge Bitter Blade vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 274-324 (64.7 - 76.5%)

Thats a very dicey range to avoid with how much you want mandi to do on the fatter teams its on, meaning you probably need a second check... which can then lose to ledge for a different reason. Ledge evil.

 

[Twilight]

I will personally be voting to ban Ceruledge and it might be for a selfish reason but I believe something needs to shift in this tier to create a bit more freedom and breathing room for building because it feels kinda lame right now ngl. I don't think Ceruledge is completely broken but I do believe it offers very little benefit to the tier besides being an Iron Moth check for offense. Defensively answering it is difficult and limited to a small sample size of Pokemon like Garganacl or Tyranitar. Even some of our sturdy walls like Alomomola take an insane amount from +2 Polter, this being worsened if it teras.

Having a limited amount of defensive answers is fine and nothing UU hasn't dealt with before. My main gripe comes from the position it puts you in when it is brought in. There is always the question of whether you can afford to click the physical move into it without it potentially costing you the game. Focus Sash variants will more or less guarantee the +2 +2 or force you to make a switch into a special attacker capable of trading into it. Either letting it get the SD for free or getting smacked with Poltergeist off its strong Attack stat. This probably would not feel too bad if it wasn't for the fact it has a good defensive typing and is also a great Tera user. I would say it has at least 4-5 different Tera types you will commonly see on ladder: Grass, Fairy, Ghost, Normal, and Fighting. All of these completely change the ways you would deal with it and can easily put you in a game-losing scenario. There is also the flexibility of items, for example, Balloon variants making the most common Garchomp sets fodder or making Iron Treads less effective at punishing it being brought in to spin block.

The Defense drop does make it prone to being revenge killed by priority (It is immune to two and resists BP though), which we have many users of but unless you're Lokix it at the very least does not go down without hitting the frailer Pokemon with a +2 Shadow Sneak. It's the only Pokemon for me that applies so much pressure by simply existing because you have to consider so many different outcomes.

 

[BigFatMantis]

Got reqs - I think there's only two problematic mons in the tier atm and those are Ceruledge and Garganacle. Ceruledge is just way too powerful for what it does and the fact that it's good on HO and also has a good Taunt set that basically turns all its normal answers upside down, in addition to having Weak Armor, makes it seem like you are walking on cartons of eggshells every time you face it in a much more unhealthy way than usual when facing offense. I think it's POSSIBLE to manage it, but it's restricting the tier from developing further because of the dedication you have to make to checking this thing (for example Mandibuzz may seem like a near blanket check, but then you also need something for the Tera Fairy Ceruledge or else that check is no good, and you also can't hit it or else you could be swept before you know it). There's lots of fun stuff in the tier atm and just from laddering I've seen a lot of creative structures that just instantly get shut down by one Ceruledge with a boost. Normally I don't like banning anything unless it's really extreme but I think the current tier needs some changing to really flourish, it has a lot of potential and Ceruledge is choking it out a bit.

As for Garganacle, this prob isn't the thread but I've always thought Garganacle was an extremely unhealthy mon because Salt Cure is the stupidest move GF has ever invented. You basically are required to run Covert Cloak on something unless your team has several dedicated offensive checks to Garg (defensive checks don't work at all unless it's Covert Cloak). To re-iterate, you have absolutely zero defensive counterplay to Garg without running a suboptimal item created this gen that, seemingly, was the only way to not make Garg even more absurd than it already is. This kind of interaction further restricts the tier in requiring you to do that, not to mention a good Garg team will have probably multiple Knockers to force your covert cloak mon to get knocked and now your only Garg counterplay is try to KO it fast and hope for the best (good luck). Think both of these mons leaving the tier would promote a much better, much healthier UU that would create a net positive in all aspects of enjoyment and competitiveness. Nothing else I can see as problematic atm.

 

[LilOu]

Hi I got reqs, here's the team.

i shamelessly stole this team to get reqs (thanks, mossybread). after much laddering, i noted that tera steel over dark is way better on moltres because the team faces too much pressure by scizor and fairies. also, the metagame has adapted enough to face ceruledge via the use of garganacle, ttar, bisharp, and some incineroar that actually i have found out that CC > shadow sneak on ceru is much more favorable right now.

i have also seen a growing trend of tera ground iron treads, so that they can dispose themselves of the steel typing to tank a +2 bitter blade and then KO ceruledge back with earthquake. it is a fair trade, to say the least, as a +2 atk and speed ceru is scary as hell. another really common way i have seen to deal with my attempts to sweep with sd air balloon ceru have been to force me to tera fairy it (when facing a foul play mandibuzz or when trying to setup vs a knock off treads after taking rocks damage) and then revenge killing it with bullet punch or extremespeed.

i completely agree with most of the comments of people saying that sd + airballoon ceruledge forces these uncomfortable scenarios where you NEED to hit it so that it doesn't freely setup, but if you hit it, you're basically helping it sweep you. i do think it is a powerhouse; however, as i said before, the metagame has adapted, not only in the use of mons that can deal with it better, but also in the ways it plays around such a threat. ceru is less of a monster now that it was before purely because of metagame adaptation.

is it broken and deserves a ban, tho?
not really sure yet. couldn't we say it's just a metagame defining threat, an S-rank mon? and what about all the other possible sets? would preparing for them all if they start to see usage be too overwhelming?

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

I used this to get reqs in one shot soooo what do I think of ceruledge? Out of my 37 games i think i faced it like... 3-4 times and its never been smth where i was like "wow what do i do"

Most of the time garchomp can be able to come in and take it out, and most balance teams can use iron treads to revenge kill it, yes tera does suck and i think its a big thing that ladder just didnt do so i lack experience in that.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2044241259?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2043891644?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2043045661

yeah those are all i saved... idt i saw a set that made me go "wow i couldnt do anything against this" or "this is totally nuts, how couldve i seen this coming" ill hopefully play more ladder cuz this month idt ive seen much of it at all that made me go "this is broken" i think garchomp is more broken but oh well this isnt a garchomp test.

Idt its broken at the moment... yes it forces some stuff but i feel there is a solid amount of counterplay for it