Metagame SV UU Metagame Discussion - The Indigo Disk

[`ShadowTwo]

Question: Are you afraid of the potential future ban on Sleep, particularly the consequences for Amoonguss and Breloom?

 

[Moutemoute]

Question: Are you afraid of the potential future ban on Sleep, particularly the consequences for Amoonguss and Breloom?

Not at all personally. I think it's a big change for sure and I'm against it on principle but I do not think it's that big of a change for UU. Amoonguss still has Regenerator at the end of the day and will be able to run Stun Spore like most of them did in the end of SS UU Metagame.

 

[BlueChedd3r]

is there any hope of kommo-o staying in UU next shift?

 

[Geopolitics]

Kinda jumping the gun here, but if Ceruledge gets the boot I fully expect Brambleghast to become an extremely good Pokemon.

Brambleghast

Brambleghast @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Wind Rider
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Poltergeist
- Strength Sap
- Rapid Spin

This Pokemon is already extremely underrated imo - it compacts a spinner, hazards, and spinblocker into one slot while critically resisting/being immune to both of Keldeo's STABs. Boots are very good on Bramble, but imo Colbur is the way to go: the best spinner in the tier, Iron Treads, gets effectively stonewalled with the combination of Colbur + Strength Sap. Colbur gives you a lot more freedom when it comes to switching directly into Treads to stop the spin. Effectively, Colbur enables you to play a lot more aggressively.

The thing that really sets this Pokemon apart is its ability. Wind Rider is objectively hilarious - you 1v1 Torn-T extremely easily (being immune to Hurricane, Bleakwind Storm, and Heat Wave) and allowing you to flip momentum against a Pokemon who is pretty notorious for being able to generate it (thanks to U-Turn, Regenerator, and its inherent bulk).

This set doesn't run Grass STAB - but honestly I'm not sure it's super necessary. You can obviously forego Spikes if you can put them somewhere else on your team. However, with the current makeup of the tier, Brambleghast is a hallmark of teams which excel at setting up hazards easily and making them extremely difficult to remove.

Potential Set Optimizations

1. Tinker with EVs to allow either: (a) better physical defense by removing spdef EVs; (b) siphoning some spdef EVs into speed, allowing you to always outrun jolly max speed Iron Treads (without Booster Energy, ofc); or (c) removing some defensive EVs and sliding them into spdef, allowing this to better handle Keldeo.

2. I am a sucker for Colbur, but either Boots or Leftovers could be good here too.

3. Foregoing Spikes for Grass stab

 

[Moutemoute]

Hello there fellow UU enjoyers. I'd like to open a debate with this post about something problematic in my eyes in the current metagame which is Entry Hazards stacking, especially Entry Hazards stacking teams based around TankChomp.

Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Ghost / Water / Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake

I think this set is currently one of the bane of this tier. Many teams are made around this Pokémon and I think it allows massive progress against so many teams/cores. The lack of Pokémon which can remove Entry Hazards allows those teams to handle the few Pokémon we have and to maintain Entry Hazards on the field. Iron Treads and Quaquaval can't bypass Sinistcha and even some HOs are adapting right now with things such as Air Ballon Ceruledge which is able to position itself against Iron Treads with ease. I think many Pokémon are threatening right now because TankChomp allows chip damage to an extreme extent on their checks thanks to either Entry Hazards or the combinaison of Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin. This is a point of view I'm sharing with Amane Misa (if I'm not mistaken) so I'd like to see if we're the only ones thinking Garchomp may be an issue for the tier development. Not to mention that Garchomp can also be played as a dangerous setup sweeper thanks to SD + Loaded Dice Scale Shot or a great HO Lead with Focus Sash, however I think that while those sets are great and/or super threatening, they're not as problematic as TankChomp which on its own provide so much utility and progress vs many teams.

 

[Twilight]

Hello there fellow UU enjoyers. I'd like to open a debate with this post about something problematic in my eyes in the current metagame which is Entry Hazards stacking, especially Entry Hazards stacking teams based around TankChomp.

Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Ghost / Water / Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake

I think this set is currently one of the bane of this tier. Many teams are made around this Pokémon and I think it allows massive progress against so many teams/cores. The lack of Pokémon which can remove Entry Hazards allows those teams to handle the few Pokémon we have and to maintain Entry Hazards on the field. Iron Treads and Quaquaval can't bypass Sinistcha and even some HOs are adapting right now with things such as Air Ballon Ceruledge which is able to position itself against Iron Treads with ease. I think many Pokémon are threatening right now because TankChomp allows chip damage to an extreme extent on their checks thanks to either Entry Hazards or the combinaison of Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin. This is a point of view I'm sharing with Amane Misa (if I'm not mistaken) so I'd like to see if we're the only ones thinking Garchomp may be an issue for the tier development. Not to mention that Garchomp can also be played as a dangerous setup sweeper thanks to SD + Loaded Dice Scale Shot or a great HO Lead with Focus Sash, however I think that while those sets are great and/or super threatening, they're not as problematic as TankChomp which on its own provide so much utility and progress vs many teams.

I'm responding to this on the premise that this is an argument about hazard stacking as a whole based on your opening sentence, but from reading your post it seems to mostly just be about TankChomp so I'll focus a good amount on that anyway. I view hazard stacking in two ways, one being the HO lead variants and the other being your usual bulky offense/balance variants.

HO teams that take advantage of this will typically use similar structures like so:

(Spikes + Rocks Sash lead)

+

(Rocks lead treads + Spikes last on one of these)

(Booster Spikes + Rocks lead)

I personally don't think hazard stacking in this fashion is particularly problematic because these teams want to prevent removal through aggressive play and the effectiveness of this will vary from game to game. There are spinblockers but tbh our offensive Ghost-types are limited and are basically locked into Ceruledge. While an Air Balloon is a rather common tool to limit Iron Treads it is still awkward for the Ceruledge player from my experience. It is still a 50/50 as a Knock Off is going to threaten it enough and if rocks are up it simply gets dropped. If rocks are not up then yes you can argue that Ceruledge has probably done its job in limiting the removal of hazards for a turn or two, which can swing a game in your favor. As for Quaquavel well it can find more chances to remove these hazards and Mandibuzz is worse given how strong Foul Play can be into these teams and Defog is only really being punished by Ogerpon with Play Rough.

Now focusing on TankChomp on its more popular playstyles. I would argue trying to get maximum value out of it requires a good amount of support for it to become overbearing from my experience. TankChomp on its own will typically find many chances to get a layer or two up alongside rocks by the nature of its typing and good bulk. However, the lack of recovery leads to it getting worn down quite fast, and trying to maximize the damage of Rough Skin + Helmet can sometimes force it to switch into unfavorable/unresisted coverage. The reliance on Dragon Tail to pressure Pokemon like Zapdos or Tornadus-T also usually forces bad trades or can cause a loss of momentum. I usually don't think it is that hard to punish TankChomp on its own and when it comes to removing hazards you get the chance to as they have to commit to Tera Ghost early.

Now as a hazard setter, I would argue it is being adapted to and can struggle with our removers anyway. Air Balloon Treads with Spinner is a massive pain for Garchomp itself to pop. Bulky Quaq with Roost has the longevity to afford trades into it while offensive spin can just run Spinner/Axel. Mandibuzz doesn't care and just clicks Defog. Due to the presence of Garchomp in general + the threat of its other sets a lot of Pokemon are packing coverage for it limiting how many chances it gets to come in to chip or set hazards.

You can offset the lack of longevity of TankChomp with Wish support, which might allow you to find more chances to get hazards up. From my experience, I don't think Alo + TankChomp meshes that well, as there is a good amount of crossover with what they can struggle with. Jirachi is a slightly better partner defensively but it has its own issues in this meta so I do feel like with just this amount of support it is manageable.

This is the biggest one and is the one you highlighted yourself. Teams relying on Iron Treads and Quaq (so Rapid Spin) have a very hard time removing hazards vs Sinistcha. These teams are also less likely to have as many Heavy-Duty Boots users so they can sometimes just fold to the combination of hazards + Rough Skin/Helmet chip. Personally, this is the only time I truly have a gripe with TankChomp's ability to find many chances to set a Spike or rocks. Now Mandibuzz does invalidate this combination and beats both the setter and Sinistcha so it isn't completely dire (At the most forces Sinistcha tera to avoid Toxic) and if you are against a team with many Boots users then you also need Knock Off support with them to make enough progress with hazards.

You never mentioned this in your post but I'm assuming you don't feel as strongly about other versions of hazard stacking because no other examples were brought up besides TankChomp despite your opening topic being about hazard stacking as a whole. Do you feel as strongly about Deoxys-D hazard stacking or other Spike users like Greninja, Gastrodon, etc. being paired with a Stealth Rock user of choice? You opened up the topic of stacking hazards being an issue but from the post, it seems Garchomp is what you have a problem with more so than hazards as a whole and our limited removal. Deoxys-D is probably the closest thing that does a similar job to TankChomp in the tier, I don't think this Pokemon is particularly great but it can achieve similar results as TankChomp if paired with Sinistcha and has recovery + a pivot move too.

To quickly touch on your point about it affecting tier development. I believe it is hard to pinpoint it down to this one set. Other elements have a massive impact on how easy it is or appealing it is to fit alternative counterplay. For example, Tornadus-T could run more Taunt sets but with so many dangerous threats like Greninja, Moth, and Latios it is hard to not opt for AV on most builds. Would banning Latios encourage the use of Hydreigon who cares very little about hazards + Sinistcha or make Kommo-o more popular as another means to combat the TankChomp + Sini cores?

I would rather focus on other elements in the tier first which would naturally open up team building before potentially tackling the topic of hazard stacking with or without Garchomp, if it even needs to happen at all. A Ceruledge ban would naturally open up the ability to counterplay HO hazard stacking given our other offensive Ghost-types are not great or simply do not do well into the most popular remover Iron Treads. So I would appreciate a follow-up because it seems more like a pro-Garchomp ban/action argument because of how effective TankChomp can be with support (Imo mostly just Sini) + the added threat of not knowing the set on preview because of how flexible Garchomp is as a whole, opposed to hazard stacking in general.

 

[Jonbot]

Hello there fellow UU enjoyers. I'd like to open a debate with this post about something problematic in my eyes in the current metagame which is Entry Hazards stacking, especially Entry Hazards stacking teams based around TankChomp.

Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Ghost / Water / Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake

I think this set is currently one of the bane of this tier. Many teams are made around this Pokémon and I think it allows massive progress against so many teams/cores. The lack of Pokémon which can remove Entry Hazards allows those teams to handle the few Pokémon we have and to maintain Entry Hazards on the field. Iron Treads and Quaquaval can't bypass Sinistcha and even some HOs are adapting right now with things such as Air Ballon Ceruledge which is able to position itself against Iron Treads with ease. I think many Pokémon are threatening right now because TankChomp allows chip damage to an extreme extent on their checks thanks to either Entry Hazards or the combinaison of Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin. This is a point of view I'm sharing with Amane Misa (if I'm not mistaken) so I'd like to see if we're the only ones thinking Garchomp may be an issue for the tier development. Not to mention that Garchomp can also be played as a dangerous setup sweeper thanks to SD + Loaded Dice Scale Shot or a great HO Lead with Focus Sash, however I think that while those sets are great and/or super threatening, they're not as problematic as TankChomp which on its own provide so much utility and progress vs many teams.

I do think, if ceruledge is banned, the hazard stack issue will be neutered slightly. While sinistcha can be scary, rapid spinning with the threat of ceruledge coming in is far more scary. Sinistcha and tankchomp also share some key flaws, like an ice weakness and a lack of reliable recovery, meaning that teams can adapt to threaten these key weaknesses, like having ice coverage on their spinners or using their own spikes/toxic spikes. Ceruledge, on the other hand, takes advantage of tankchomps weaknesses to pivot into ice/fairy moves and set up, potenitally ending games on the spot. Naturally ceruledge's ban would make this situation void, making it easier to handle these teams.

I also think the banning of ceruledge could open up some new options to fight tankchomp as well. I think galarian weezing is really good right now, with levitate, since it can defog and will-o-wisp all of the physical attackers it doesn't deal with already. However, ceruledge sets up on it for free so its ban will naturally make it significantly better at clearing hazards. Donphan also appreciates not having to deal with air balloon ceruledge and brambleghast has also been mentioned as a potential spinner in a post ban metagame, giving us more options deal with hazard stack as a whole.

If ceruledge is not banned, then I think it would be fair to take action against this style if it becomes too dominant. But if ceruledge is banned, then I think the meta will be able to adapt to the playstyle in a healthy way through the general improvement of all hazard control options and the nerf to tankchomp teams as a whole.

 

[Swagodile]

Question: Are you afraid of the potential future ban on Sleep, particularly the consequences for Amoonguss and Breloom?

It definely hurts Amoonguss.

Breloom, not as much. If anything, the sleep ban somewhat alleviates its 4MSS. The sleep ban frees it from being obligated to run Spore, freeing up a slot for another move.

 

[Szark]

I personally on the other hand believe to have become a much more interesting Pokemon than prior.

Not needing to run Spore doesn't mean it can't run status since it has access to both Toxic and Stun Spore, it can now more freely run Synthesis for recovery as well. Not having the need to run Spore anymore also makes it more viable to run an AV set with something like Clear Smog. Amoong is probably worse but I think it's makes it more interesting.

 

[Amane Misa]

Regarding the discussion about TankChomp, here are the points that have been convincing me it is unhealthy to some extent:

• TankChomp can fit into every playstyle
• Thanks to its great natural bulk and Speed, TankChomp has a good matchup against the vast majority of the common physical attackers, which can provide it with multiple opportunities to set up hazards without much risk
• Thanks to its high base Attack and ability with the back of Rocky Helmet, no viable Rapid Spin user can freely spin when TankChomp is alive and healthy
• The lack of recovery doesn’t matter much if TankChomp is used on a fast paced Offense team. If used on Balance, it can easily get healed by Wish Alomomola, the best staple on Balance teams in the tier

Below are the ways to deal with TankChomp (not talking about checks and counters, which are pretty obvious at this point, but about ways to deal with it setting up hazards):

• Defog Mandibuzz and Galarian Weezing
• Iron Treads can Rapid Spin and die to Earthquake, or take Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin, assuming TankChomp isn’t Tera Ghost or there is no spinblocker paired with it
• Heavy-Duty Boots spam

To sum it up, TankChomp can set up hazards relatively easily in most scenarios, can fit into every playstyle, and the ways to deal with it are either restrictive or are not worth most of the time. As a result, TankChomp has been feeling overwhelming and unhealthy for me to some extent.

 

[buayagator]

Regarding the discussion about TankChomp, here are the points that have been convincing me it is unhealthy to some extent:

• TankChomp can fit into every playstyle
• Thanks to its great natural bulk and Speed, TankChomp has a good matchup against the vast majority of the common physical attackers, which can provide it with multiple opportunities to set up hazards without much risk
• Thanks to its high base Attack and ability with the back of Rocky Helmet, no viable Rapid Spin user can freely spin when TankChomp is alive and healthy
• The lack of recovery doesn’t matter much if TankChomp is used on a fast paced Offense team. If used on Balance, it can easily get healed by Wish Alomomola, the best staple on Balance teams in the tier

Below are the ways to deal with TankChomp (not talking about checks and counters, which are pretty obvious at this point, but about ways to deal with it setting up hazards):

• Defog Mandibuzz and Galarian Weezing
• Iron Treads can Rapid Spin and die to Earthquake, or take Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin, assuming TankChomp isn’t Tera Ghost or there is no spinblocker paired with it
• Heavy-Duty Boots spam

To sum it up, TankChomp can set up hazards relatively easily in most scenarios, can fit into every playstyle, and the ways to deal with it are either restrictive or are not worth most of the time. As a result, TankChomp has been feeling overwhelming and unhealthy for me to some extent.

what is tankchomp check & counter that you said obvious?

I personally use iron tread with stealth rock and ice spinner as suicide lead to face tankchomp

turn 1 : both setup rock
turn 2 : ice spinner vs spikes (tread hurt by rough skin & potential rocky helmet but garchomp heavily damaged (252 Atk Iron Treads Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 332-392 (79 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO))
turn 3 : rapid spin vs earthquake (tread is dead (0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 234-276 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO))

though tread is dead and chomp still alive, your advantage is having rocks on field, then you can just kill remaining hp of garchomp with any fast special attacker, iron moth for example can get 50% boost from fiery dance

 

[Moutemoute]

what is tankchomp check & counter that you said obvious?

I personally use iron tread with stealth rock and ice spinner as suicide lead to face tankchomp

turn 1 : both setup rock
turn 2 : ice spinner vs spikes (tread hurt by rough skin & potential rocky helmet but garchomp heavily damaged (252 Atk Iron Treads Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 332-392 (79 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO))
turn 3 : rapid spin vs earthquake (tread is dead (0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 234-276 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO))

though tread is dead and chomp still alive, your advantage is having rocks on field, then you can just kill remaining hp of garchomp with any fast special attacker, iron moth for example can get 50% boost from fiery dance

You're playing it wrong. Garchomp should always go for EQ on the first turn vs Treads because if it does, it ensure that Iron Treads can't Rapid Spin on it on the second turn (thanks to Rocky + Rough Skin chip damages). If Treads uses Ice Spinner and TankChomp EQ, then you have removed the Rapid Spin user and your Garchomp is still alive, so you'll still be able to eventually set Rocks/Spikes during the game, sac it or heal it with Wish + slow Flip Turn from Alomomola.

 

[buayagator]

You're playing it wrong. Garchomp should always go for EQ on the first turn vs Treads because if it does, it ensure that Iron Treads can't Rapid Spin on it on the second turn (thanks to Rocky + Rough Skin chip damages). If Treads uses Ice Spinner and TankChomp EQ, then you have removed the Rapid Spin user and your Garchomp is still alive, so you'll still be able to eventually set Rocks/Spikes during the game, sac it or heal it with Wish + slow Flip Turn from Alomomola.

The thing is, we don't know if the garchomp is bulky or offensive?

if its offensive, treads have higher chance to OHKO it with its better speed, unless the chomp have focus sash
252 Atk Iron Treads Ice Spinner vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 332-392 (92.9 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO vs 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 282-332 (87.8 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

I mainly play aggresive screen HO with sash Tread as a lead and have no problem facing chomp on turn 1

Some example of my replay :
- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2032303595-0gx8x4hkptojclkszaqdb1t4v7f6fr0pw (chomp gets lucky 18% OHKO roll but my sash Tread revenge it with 56% roll, Tread did rocks, Chomp did nothing)
- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2032322159-79pf5lfoe0h7ufni84shahckos9sgx1pw (I don't know how can liquidation does 62%, lol. But my tread gets bad roll so chomp is still alive. Weakened chomp can easily be killed with resisted hit like heat wave tornadus-t)
- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2032335078-8xd4b4u0mulg47k7kyv7cqqof7zefjppw (stupid chomp using SD in front of Tread and get critted as a result, lol)

Yes, the 3 replay showing atkchomp, not tankchomp, Usually tankchomp is not used as a lead vs my team on preview. But trust me, Ice spinner Iron Treads is good vs Garchomp

 

[Moutemoute]

The thing is, we don't know if the garchomp is bulky or offensive?

if its offensive, treads have higher chance to OHKO it with its better speed, unless the chomp have focus sash
252 Atk Iron Treads Ice Spinner vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 332-392 (92.9 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO vs 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 282-332 (87.8 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

I mainly play aggresive screen HO with sash Tread as a lead and have no problem facing chomp on turn 1

Some example of my replay :
- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2032303595-0gx8x4hkptojclkszaqdb1t4v7f6fr0pw (chomp gets lucky 18% OHKO roll but my sash Tread revenge it with 56% roll, Tread did rocks, Chomp did nothing)
- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2032322159-79pf5lfoe0h7ufni84shahckos9sgx1pw (I don't know how can liquidation does 62%, lol. But my tread gets bad roll so chomp is still alive. Weakened chomp can easily be killed with resisted hit like heat wave tornadus-t)
- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2032335078-8xd4b4u0mulg47k7kyv7cqqof7zefjppw (stupid chomp using SD in front of Tread and get critted as a result, lol)

Yes, the 3 replay showing atkchomp, not tankchomp, Usually tankchomp is not used as a lead vs my team on preview. But trust me, Ice spinner Iron Treads is good vs Garchomp

If it's offensive, the Garchomp player will always try to scout for Ice Spinner (if it's a good player at least with decent knowledge about the metagame). Your replays are from around ≈1300 elo which is low even for lower tiers. Also if it's offensive Sash Lead Garchomp, the issue is always the same, EQ can OHKO Treads on a roll and if you're using Ice Spinner you're also KO while Garchomp is at 1 HP.

 

[buayagator]

If it's offensive, the Garchomp player will always try to scout for Ice Spinner (if it's a good player at least with decent knowledge about the metagame). Your replays are from around ≈1300 elo which is low even for lower tiers. Also if it's offensive Sash Lead Garchomp, the issue is always the same, EQ can OHKO Treads on a roll and if you're using Ice Spinner you're also KO while Garchomp is at 1 HP.

Yes I mostly played at low ladder with many alt, I'm afraid to go higher than 1400, lol. I'm done with ice spinner tread

 

[Szark]

I want to make a post about because it is a Pokemon I have went back and forth on a lot.

Initially I thought it was broken, then I thought it wasn't and now again that it is. Latios is currently one of the strongest if not the strongest special attackers in the tier and with amazing 110 speed it's only naturally slower than and , it also bolster incredible 130 SpA with high power stabs in Draco Meteor and Luster Purge, decent Bulk. Latios has an easy time punching holes through teams with not that much effort, that alone while already potentially problematic gets amplified by the set versitality it has access to.

Latios is a mon with incredible freedom in it's sets. It can choose between amazing offensive items in Choice Specs or somewhat less powerful Soul Dew that doesn't lock it into any move. Psychic and Dragon are good neutral coverage that allow it to run an extreme variety of moves. Thunderbolt, Surf, Flip Turn, Trick, Calm Mind, Recover, Memento are all moves that have been seen in Tournaments and that's not even all it has since in early days it used to run Aura Sphere and can theoretically run Shadowball or Fire Blast.

While has it's checks you often see teams bring multiple checks in a single team. Most often cited are Steel types like Jirachi and Metagros who either get chunked by Shadow Ball or outright die to Fire Blast. Azumaril is immune to Dracos which makes it great against Specs but I find to overall a rather shacky check, it needs a sizeable SpDef investement on vest to not get 2HKO'd by Specs Luster Purge and Fears SpDef drops, moreover Latios has the option to run Thunderbolt and specs Tbolt always 2hko's Full SpDef Vest Azu if rocks are up. Other Checks include Assault Vest and who have their own issues.

If that wasn't enough choice can permanently cripple the more passive walls like Alomomola with Trick. The way this mon can muscle through many defensive checks is incredible and often requires multiple of them.

Latios offensive checks boil down to priority. Being the 3rd fastest unboosted Mon in the tier tied to and leaves it to Greninja and Torn. Torn is often relegated to a defensive check and doesn't do that well to check Latios offensively, offensive Torn does very good damage with Knock but even without an item gets hit by Draco **HARD** and needs to rely on Blake/Hurricane afterwards to KO. Worst case scenario is that Latios Teras and uses you as fodder. Greninja does much better threatning a clean KO from full HP just has to watch out for Tera.

Then there are the priority users , , and . Ceruledge is also a problematic Mon that might get banned soon. Lokix has risen in popularity and for a good reason, it brings to the table incredibly valueable priority in FI and is probably Latios' best check as even Tera Steel takes very high damage from FI thanks to Tinted Lens. Lokix also matches well into other meta threats. Scizor is also a good, altho a lot more shacky option with bullet punch. Metagross is probably the most vulnerable of them.

What about boosted threats? Iron Moth can do decently with Dazzling Gleam but needs Latios weakened by someone before or Tera to not die to Purge and can only come in to try to revenge one time, after that it becomes a speed tie. Booster Treads while faster isn't run as a revenge killer. Terrakion relies on hitting Stone Edge. Other than Iron Moth I don't believe there to be many good boosted revenge killers.

Finally the future. Tier Shifts are coming soon and there is a good chance we lose which is pretty worrisome to me. It is the best spinner in the tier and hazards are already hard to keep off. With Garchomp it's easier than ever to set up spikes. This benefits Latios as it is both spikes immune and appreciates the extra chip damage as it is plowing through competition. It is a mon that forces a lot of switching and even if it doesn't KO that chip damage is going to matter long term. Perhaps the drops will give us new checks to it like and . I think whatever happens there is going to decide fate in the tier.

Some examples:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-739863 here Latios thanks to Tera is able to use its check as fodder to use Recover, take 4 and win the game, Lokix final FI was a max roll.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-739593 despite there being multiple Latios checks on the team it still managed to muscle through Azu thanks to Tera Electric Tbolt, chip Treads for 62%, take out Garg and force Tornadus to Tera
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-739592 thanks to a crit Latios manages to just kill everything
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-738678 here Latios again uses Torn as fodder

 

[Corporate Donkey]

While has it's checks you often see teams bring multiple checks in a single team. Most often cited are Steel types like Jirachi and Metagros who either get chunked by Shadow Ball or outright die to Fire Blast. Azumaril is immune to Dracos which makes it great against Specs but I find to overall a rather shacky check, it needs a sizeable SpDef investement on vest to not get 2HKO'd by Specs Luster Purge and Fears SpDef drops, moreover Latios has the option to run Thunderbolt and specs Tbolt always 2hko's Full SpDef Vest Azu if rocks are up. Other Checks include Assault Vest and who have their own issues.

You forgot the GOAT, AV

 

[Szark]

You forgot the GOAT, AV

Funnily enough I watched replays with for the post but I dont believe there is one where the two mons coexist

 

[Geopolitics]

LATIOS TALK

@Szark: Latios is a mon with incredible freedom in it's sets. It can choose between amazing offensive items in Choice Specs or somewhat less powerful Soul Dew that doesn't lock it into any move. Psychic and Dragon are good neutral coverage that allow it to run an extreme variety of moves. Thunderbolt, Surf, Flip Turn, Trick, Calm Mind, Recover, Memento are all moves that have been seen in Tournaments and that's not even all it has since in early days it used to run Aura Sphere and can theoretically run Shadowball or Fire Blast.

I think behind Ceruledge, Latios is the most imposing threat in the tier right now. Obviously, Latios has a grab-bag of coverage moves as pointed out in the post above. These coverage moves (Aura Sphere for Empoleon; Shadow Ball for Jirachi; Surf for Treads) make Latios extremely unpredictable to deal with. The effectiveness of this coverage is compounded by the fact that most Pokemon pair well with Latios - meaning it is harder to assess from team preview what the Latios set might be (is it Specs to be a wallbreaker or CM sweeper?).

To me, the best Latios set right now is this one:

CM + Soul Dew

Latios @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Luster Purge
- Draco Meteor
- Recover

I know I did just spend a paragraph talking about Latios' ability to threaten teams with its expansive coverage only to say that (imo) the best set right now is one that just runs STAB, but hear me out. This Latios set isn't designed to pick off checks/counters via tactfully placed, Specs boosted coverage moves in order to eventually wear down traditional counters. It is, however, designed to just brute force wallbreak/sweep its way through teams - despite the existence of traditional checks and counters. Pokemon we like think of as safe walls to switch into Latios (specifically Empoleon, Jirachi, and Treads) lose the CM/Recover war of attrition (especially given Luster Purge's insanely inflated 50% SpDef drop chance). Tera Steel is a great addition here - it takes away weakness to Knock Off (which is spammed checks like Treads, Tyranitar, Empoleon, and Tornadus). Tera Fairy is also an option here, but imo that's better suited for more offensive Latios who won't be trying to boost against (then) super-effective steel type attacks. After the Ceruledge suspect finishes, I pretty firmly believe that Latios should be at least looked at.

We know Latios is good, and I certainly wanted to weigh in on it. However, my main purpose for browsing the forums today was to start discussion on some Pokemon who I feel to be underrated right now for one reason or another. Further, I want to analyze whether these Pokemon will become better or worse depending on the pending tiering action of Ceruledge.

Revavroom

Revavroom @ Air Balloon
Ability: Filter
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Iron Head
- Gunk Shot
- Temper Flare

I saw sufys using this Pokemon during the reqs process for Ceruledge and decided to give it a whirl - this Pokemon is extremely underrated right now. While lacking the coverage/brute strength to make a fool out of TankChomp, Revavroom is arguably the best momentum flipping cleaner available - particularly when paired with Air Balloon. Balloon in particular allows Big Vroom to set up on things like Iron Treads, Ursaluna, Hydrapple, and Metagross - four extremely common Pokemon who then get blown away by one of Revavroom's attacks. Balloon merely expands the list of what Revavroom can set up on: it already, due to its typing, can flip momentum versus things like either Ogerpon form and Sinistcha. Once it gets that +1 Atk/+2 Speed boost, it pretty much outguns the whole tier and does surprising damage (notably 2hko'ing Alo after Rocks and/or one round of poison, doing at least 80% to standard Zapdos, and OHKOing Latios/Molt-G/Gren/Torn-T). I'd love to see more exploration of this Pokemon, especially more data on whether Temper Flare+Tera Fire is better than High Horsepower+Tera Ground. I expect this Pokemon to get better if Ceruledge is banned from UU.

Arboliva

Arboliva @ Assault Vest
Ability: Seed Sower
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Alluring Voice
- Earth Power
- Giga Drain

Arb, while it suffers from being ungodly slow, has a surprising amount of coverage and hits hard (especially once under Grassy Terrain, which is summoned by Seed Sower). Arb's place in the metagame is an interesting one: it is assuredly a utility Pokemon because of its ability to summon terrain, but it is stronger and tankier than Indeedee while having a little bit of self-sustain due to Giga Drain. While I would like to see some exploration of Specs sets, I've been digging AV lately: it can handle Greninja (denying a Battle Bond boost) and some variants of Iron Moth (particularly those that opt for +1 speed from Quark Drive) while also threatening to bruise some of the better walls in the tier (notably Alo, Chomp, Slowking). I expect this Pokemon to get better if Ceruledge is banned from UU.

Lilligant-H

Lilligant-Hisui (F) @ Protective Pads
Ability: Chlorophyll
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Victory Dance
- Close Combat
- Ice Spinner
- Leaf Blade

There are certainly stronger sets of this Pokemon to run: I think Hustle + Wide Lens has significant merit. However, I've been dabbling with this Pokemon as a late-game cleaner that pairs well with things like Ursaluna. Victory Dance is just absurd in this tier right now, specifically due to the number of strong physical priority moves (Lokix First Impression/Sucker Punch, Azumarill Aqua Jet, Arcanine-H Extremespeed, Metagross/Scizor Bullet Punch). Protective Pads insulates you from a lot of the little things that unprepared teams do to stunt the progress of physical attackers. Things like TankChomp and Zapdos really struggle to dissuade you from clicking Victory Dance. Grass/Fighting/Ice coverage is absurdly good and - while it does still lose to things like Sinistcha and Okidogi - usually has enough latitude to clean up teams after clicking Victory Dance while forcing a switch.

Overqwil

Overqwil @ Black Sludge
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 Spe
Impish Nature
- Barb Barrage
- Toxic Spikes
- Crunch
- Taunt

I could write love letters about this Pokemon - Intimidate is an extremely top-tier ability and the supporting movepool (specifically Taunt and Toxic Spikes) make this thing really, really good. Overqwil makes its bones by spreading status across teams - both through Toxic Spikes for grounded targets and Barb Barrage for aerial ones. I'm shocked this doesn't get more usage for Barb Barrage alone: the move is a pedestrian 60bp, but has a 50% chance to poison. If the target is already poisoned, however, it doubles in base power to 120. The threat of poison limits the ability of offensive Pokemon to switch into Overqwil and force it out. Things like AV Torn-T, for instance, can't switch if in it is already poisoned and rocks are up (it dies after Rocks + Poison damage + Barb Barrage). Taunt is pretty crucial to stop slower threats like Garganacl. I can't really get a feel for whether this will be better or worse if Ceruledge leaves the tier. On one hand, it's less coerced into running Crunch, opening up a moveslot for Pain Split or Spikes (or even Destiny Bond, if you're feeling particularly adventurous). On the other hand, losing Crunch means that things like Scizor set up pretty freely in its face.

Mimikyu

Mimikyu @ Life Orb
Ability: Disguise
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Play Rough
- Shadow Sneak

With all the potent offensive threats running around in the tier, some players have shifted to Pokemon like Ogrepon-C (sturdy) or items like Focus Sash to provide some insurance against runaway sweepers. This same concept is what makes Mimikyu good: it is one of the best insurance policies in the tier. Imo Shadow Claw is pretty redundant: most of the things you'll seek to hit super-effectively with a Ghost type move are threatened out by Shadow Sneak's priority anyway (Latios, Ceruledge) - but this can certainly be adjusted if you're struggling with things like Sinistcha. SD + Drain Punch plays particularly well into things like Garganacl, Iron Treads, and Tyranitar. Mimikyu also serves to be the tier's next big spinblocker for offense, especially because it keeps the priority which Ceruledge provides while also giving a better answer to SD+Scale Shot Garchomp. I expect Mimikyu to get better if Ceruledge is banned from UU.


If you've used any of these mons/sets and want to contribute to the discussion, feel free: I'd love to hear what others thing about some of these more niche Pokemon.

 

[BlueChedd3r]

finally actually talking about mons that have my attention

Haven't seen it alot on the ladder, but when i do see it, it's a straight menace like how do you play around him once he gets weak armor (ik priority)

He's okay I guess?? to me he hasn't done anything notable like Salamence or Kommo-o so far so idk

Just, annoying, that's really it

This guy is mid, like REALLY mid, he either sweeps your whole team or dies immediately weak coverage, battle bond seems pretty good but protean gren is hot garbage

haha quark drive speed funny moth go brr (it's broken)

This thing is incredibly legit, great stabs, vacuum wave, calm mind, even icy wind for coverage, definitely is gonna be great this gen

I could go on and on how great this mon is, your opponent screws up, you click clangorous soul and then just go crazy on boomburst, the amount of sets he can run is nothing short of ASTOUNDING, clangorous soul, dd, stealth rock, iron defense/body press, mixed clang, sub belly drum it's actually hilarious how he's not banned yet

I'd have more to say if i actually ran into this thing on the ladder, agility berserk sitrus seems pretty good so that's worth noting

Polteageist proves that once teatime begins, it aint gonna stop, shell smash + stored power is insane and if it reads you with tera normal the game is over

It's like if UU had an easy mode

 

[Bruxish supremacy]

Tinkaton seems pretty good in this meta rn. It is one of the absolute best options against latios, is decent against greninja and moltres galar, has an ok match up into ttar and ogerpon.

 

[Dorsia]

Hello guys, could this set be any good?


Incineroar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Fairy / Fighting / Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Power Trip
- Drain Punch
- Flame Charge / Trailblaze

 

[somethingaboutsomething]

Hello guys, could this set be any good?


Incineroar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Fairy / Fighting / Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Power Trip
- Drain Punch
- Flame Charge / Trailblaze

i really think incinearor is better as a pivot with parting shot and knock off

 

[Twilight]

Just making a post to talk about Terrakion because from my experience it has felt pretty incredible as a wallbreaker. I will mostly be speaking about Choice Band Terrakion because that is the set I used across both teams I laddered with. I will quickly say that SD with Upper Hand is something neat you can run to deal with priority users like Scizor and Specs Keldeo, as it can OHKO both with a LO and rocks.


I think most people think about the Choice Scarf set when it comes to Terrakion due to Rockpon largely overshadowing it as an offensive Rock-type wallbreaker with SD sets. Personally, I much prefer Terrakion as a wall breaker right now. It also takes advantage of common counterplay to Rockpon such as Hoodra, Tinkaton, Metagross, etc. and melts them. The ability to run an item of choice and to change up your Tera-type is extremely impactful in my eyes and helps make up for most of its shortcomings, particularly with the Speed tier and typing against foes like Scizor and Latios.

Terrakion @ Choice Band
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Steel / Rock / Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Quick Attack

This is what I usually run on Terrakion myself and it should be standard for anyone that has used it in the past. I value Quick Attack for more offensive matchups but you could run Stealth Rock in the last slot too. The ability to run Tera Steel helps swing matchups against Latios, Scizor, and both Ogerpon into your favor. I think tera Fighting and Rock are still strong options though. STAB Close Combat off its stronger Attack stat melts and is fairly easy for you to spam thanks to Terrakion having such a strong matchup into the best Fighting-type pivots Zapdos and Tornadus-T. Less bulky Fighting resists take a ridiculous amount from CC and would otherwise drop to Stone Edge. I think the biggest reason I have had so much success with CB Terrakion is because it is capable of 2HKOing Alomomola. This essentially allows you to make progress through these teams despite it scouting or at the very least forcing the tera Fairy out of it.

I will mention the only core I struggled to ever break with Terrakion was the combination of Alo + Amoong on some super bulky team. It was an annoying core to break without better support, which is why I created another team that paired it with Slowking for Future Sight to help offset this. I never struggled muscling through everything else though, assuming you make the correct prediction.

Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 243-286 (50.5 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 204-240 (42.4 - 49.8%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 176-207 (58.4 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 176-207 (43.5 - 51.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 176-207 (50.1 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 211-249 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2045354526 - I got a lucky burn on Azu early but this helps showcase CB CC's power
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2046317500 - Terrak into fairly standard structures with Future Sight support
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2046951922-0v2arxn4eho049jc6kwxqnqtj0ys2kkpw - Just a good matchup to get in and click

These are both the teams I used from 1500 onward to the above peak. The bottom team is rather susceptible to Rockpon but tera always screwed it over for me to make the matchup way easier or setting rocks and preventing the free SD. You could go tera Fairy on Scarf Drei for +1 Garchomp but I felt good enough in the matchup + Tera Dark is nice for cleaning. Aside from that, I was pretty content with the teams for my given playstyle.

On a side note, I am glad Ceru was banned even if it doesn't impact the tier in terms of solving its biggest issues. We are very close to shifts and I believe we expect it will shake the tier up a lot so I will probably afk until then and look forward to seeing the state it is in afterwards.

I would suggest giving more offensive Terrakion sets a try if you have the time :D

 

[BlueChedd3r]

where tf did greninja go have you guys seen him lately?? (i haven't seen him on the ladder at all)


edit: almost one day later still no greninja