And then it curses or iron defences anyway so it’s not like you’ll 1v1 it even if you have those
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SV UU Metagame Discussion - Teal Mask Edition
- Thread starter Lily
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I am going to share a better opinion hopefully to why I believe 
aka the stupid salt rock pokemon is broken and I believe it should be banned via suspect in the future
first, has excellent bulk which makes it very hard to take down by default... the bulk allows it to take hits from neutral hits and while rock type is bad you can easily tera it out and even then salt cure makes it so you are less likely to switch into smth like a water or steel type that may counter it and rely on things such as frailer pokemon like meow, shocks, iron hands, zapdos-g. Many pokemon do not want to switch into it as well... pokemon that think they can do it really in practice would rather not unless they are covert cloak
second.... covert cloak is a temporary solution and often times its also eating a knock off... pokemon like amoonguss, quav, an alo often eat a knock off from pokemon like ttar, donphan, iron treads, tinkaton, meowscarada, tornadus-t and more... which makes it often not as easy as one may think. This is why covert cloak argument is often not that good and while it can work it is often times not the thing that will save you. You often have to take the salt cure chip damage like it or not.
Third is the biggest one. tera! terastalization makes it so that garganacl really is able to changes its counters on its head and something like a setup garg can make it infinitely harder to play around in the late game thinking its some form of tera water set but reveals a tera dragon set and walls the crap out of your meowscarada.... it is just hard to play around a pokemon when it has many viable options it can go for and you do not know if your pokemon are enough to deal with it.
Fourth, is that even itemless garg is a huge issue to a team and salt cure can wear them down badly especially with hazards cutting esp without the recovery of lefties, covert cloak blocking ability, and boots blocking hazards. A garg that has started to setup is a huge issue for most teams to overcome that arent smth like grass knot amoonguss (still lose to a neutral tera like dragon and ghost) and after a boost it may be to late for you. Even when you have the wrong tera for the MU you can still put in work.. there is rarely a time where it was like "dam garg isnt doing enough here" and often forces significant progress against many teams. I disagree with the argument that "knocking garg makes it dead" and I dont know why one would think like that.. this is not excadrill.. nor is it smth like SS swampert... nor is it a celesteela.
A set im running rn and I feel people dont use on ladder rn is salt cure, recover, ID, body press with max sp. def and a tera of ur choice depending on the team. Curse is also another set I am running.... this sets feels bullshit to play against and its a game of "does it have the right tera for the MU" if you answered yes then good for you, you are pretty smoked. But what if the answer is no? Garg is still an oppressive pokemon even if you try to c-team it... you have top hop hurdle over hurdle to try to be able to play against it and it just is not fun. What does garg add to the tier? Why should we keep it here? it just forces stupid items and makes tera guessing obnoxious and annoying..
What is your counterplay on a team? Can you ensure you can outplay a garg with 5 other teammates backing it up.. you are not playing 6v1 either where covert cloak amoonguss is keeping it the entire game... you are also playing a game where ur opponent is trying their best to win. Picture playing against yourself, can you really say you will just make it that easy for that amoonguss, alo, quaq and other covert cloak users to wall u
aka the stupid salt rock pokemon is broken and I believe it should be banned via suspect in the futurefirst,
has excellent bulk which makes it very hard to take down by default... the bulk allows it to take hits from neutral hits and while rock type is bad you can easily tera it out and even then salt cure makes it so you are less likely to switch into smth like a water or steel type that may counter it and rely on things such as frailer pokemon like meow, shocks, iron hands, zapdos-g. Many pokemon do not want to switch into it as well... pokemon that think they can do it really in practice would rather not unless they are covert cloaksecond.... covert cloak is a temporary solution and often times its also eating a knock off... pokemon like amoonguss, quav, an alo often eat a knock off from pokemon like ttar, donphan, iron treads, tinkaton, meowscarada, tornadus-t and more... which makes it often not as easy as one may think. This is why covert cloak argument is often not that good and while it can work it is often times not the thing that will save you. You often have to take the salt cure chip damage like it or not.
Third is the biggest one. tera! terastalization makes it so that garganacl really is able to changes its counters on its head and something like a setup garg can make it infinitely harder to play around in the late game thinking its some form of tera water set but reveals a tera dragon set and walls the crap out of your meowscarada.... it is just hard to play around a pokemon when it has many viable options it can go for and you do not know if your pokemon are enough to deal with it.
Fourth, is that even itemless garg is a huge issue to a team and salt cure can wear them down badly especially with hazards cutting esp without the recovery of lefties, covert cloak blocking ability, and boots blocking hazards. A garg that has started to setup is a huge issue for most teams to overcome that arent smth like grass knot amoonguss (still lose to a neutral tera like dragon and ghost) and after a boost it may be to late for you. Even when you have the wrong tera for the MU you can still put in work.. there is rarely a time where it was like "dam garg isnt doing enough here" and often forces significant progress against many teams. I disagree with the argument that "knocking garg makes it dead" and I dont know why one would think like that.. this is not excadrill.. nor is it smth like SS swampert... nor is it a celesteela.
A set im running rn and I feel people dont use on ladder rn is salt cure, recover, ID, body press with max sp. def and a tera of ur choice depending on the team. Curse is also another set I am running.... this sets feels bullshit to play against and its a game of "does it have the right tera for the MU" if you answered yes then good for you, you are pretty smoked. But what if the answer is no? Garg is still an oppressive pokemon even if you try to c-team it... you have top hop hurdle over hurdle to try to be able to play against it and it just is not fun. What does garg add to the tier? Why should we keep it here? it just forces stupid items and makes tera guessing obnoxious and annoying..
What is your counterplay on a team? Can you ensure you can outplay a garg with 5 other teammates backing it up.. you are not playing 6v1 either where covert cloak amoonguss is keeping it the entire game... you are also playing a game where ur opponent is trying their best to win. Picture playing against yourself, can you really say you will just make it that easy for that amoonguss, alo, quaq and other covert cloak users to wall u
Im gonna piggyback off this by saying that if you want this core to be even better, pair it withI'm not 100% what the exact percentages needed to quickban a Pokemon are (I couldn't find anything in previous posts) but I'm like 99% sure that Ceruledge would still be banned even with Moutemoute's mistake taken into account. If we change Moute's ban vote to a DNB, we get a 7-5-1 ratio, which just barely skews in favor of a majority vote. Any council members are free to correct me if I'm wrong lmao. Regardless of that, the ban was already implemented by the time the mistake was pointed out, and I think reversing a quickban due to a single mistake would just be a hassle for both the community and the programmers at Smogon. Besides, the council could always hold another vote on Ceruledge or even suspect it back into the tier if they really see the mistake as that big of a deal, so it's not an end-all be-all.
While I'm here, I'm gonna take this opportunity to talk about a duo of mons that I not only think are super underrated on their own, but also form a really good core together that I've loved using lately:
This is a really awesome mon that I only expect to get better with Garchomp getting banned. BU sets being able to reliably 1v1 ID Garg is really good, it has a really good speed tier for a bulky sweeper, and being able to spread poison with Toxic Chain helps it out massively against bulkier teams. I personally prefer to run Tera Fairy - Tera Water forces you to run Covert Cloak so you don't lose the Garg matchup when you Tera, which means you lose out on the added longevity Leftovers gives you. I think this is going to be a real threat once the meta settles down further.
This mon should NOT be as good as it is holy fucking BINGLE. Matcha Gotcha is the stupidest fucking move in the history of Pokemon, and when you combine it with Calm Mind and Strength Sap, this mon is almost UNKILLABLE. It's another great Garg counter that can reliably 1v1 it, and it's also super good at checking stuff like Rotom-W, Sandy Shocks, Ursaluna... it can even reliable counter Iron Hands as long as it's not running Ice Punch or Tera Blast Flying. It is unfortunately very suspectible to Knock Off, and it really doesn't like Dark types like Meowscarada, Weavile, and Hydriegon becoming more prominent, but when it finds a favorable matchup, oh BOY does this mon pop off.
While these above two mons are both good on their own, they REALLY shine when run together as a core. Okidogi acts as a Knock Off absorber for Sinistcha and handles Dark types for it, while Sinistcha handles Ground types for Okidogi. They're also both really good at spreading status and just wearing down bulky mons while also serving as dangerous late-game wincons in their own right. It's a very versatile core that fits very well on balance, bulky offense, and any team that really hates Garganacl :P
Here's the team I've been using with these two if anyone wants to give this core a try: https://pokepast.es/ae00a4944f495cf7 I built this team with the help of pia members as part of the weekly CCAT event, and it REALLY exceeded my expectations, especially with how much work Okidogi and Sinistcha put in as a core. I hope these mons surprise you as much as they surprised me! (in a good way, ofc xdd)
and 
Already pairs amazingly with
as it allows it to stay alive to get more knocks and chances to sweep and spread toxics, but also is nice to help not need to be fully reliant on the sorta unreliable strength sap.Provides speed and sp def to the core with AV while assisting in removing items from things dogi cant draw in to knock. Also is another pivot to help either get one of dogi or sinis in or getting some other scary threats that capitalize off of the work the other members have done.
ID/BP always feels like a MU fish to me. You're just setup fodder for any (Tera) Ghost running sub (SubSD Iron Hands or Sub Dirge, for instance), which will only get more common the more bigger Garg gets in the tier. Curse sets may not win you as many games outright, but they feel a lot more consistent, with Curse attack boosts letting you break subs on more things.
This is all pretty standard stuff from Garg's days yoyoing up and down the OU VRs, but one tech I've always loved and never saw catch on much is Curse + Tera Blast sets. If you need Garg to click something other than Salt Cure or recover, there's a good chance you're clicking Tera. Tera Blast basically let's you choose what you counter as well as what counters you.
Back before Walking Wake released, I used to run this with Tera Fire to turn Gholdengo, Volcarona, Amoonguss and others into setup fodder. In general, the standard Water and Fairy teras are great for this, with Salt Cure keeping waters and steels from switching in. Ghost (remember to Curse up before clicking Tera), Flying (lololol @ cloak Amoonguss/Quaq), and even Electric can work great, too as combo offense/defense types.
Hmm today I will attackI am going to share a better opinion hopefully to why I believe
first,
second.... covert cloak is a temporary solution and often times its also eating a knock off... pokemon like amoonguss, quav, an alo often eat a knock off from pokemon like ttar, donphan, iron treads, tinkaton, meowscarada, tornadus-t and more... which makes it often not as easy as one may think. This is why covert cloak argument is often not that good and while it can work it is often times not the thing that will save you. You often have to take the salt cure chip damage like it or not.
Third is the biggest one. tera! terastalization makes it so that garganacl really is able to changes its counters on its head and something like a setup garg can make it infinitely harder to play around in the late game thinking its some form of tera water set but reveals a tera dragon set and walls the crap out of your meowscarada.... it is just hard to play around a pokemon when it has many viable options it can go for and you do not know if your pokemon are enough to deal with it.
Fourth, is that even itemless garg is a huge issue to a team and salt cure can wear them down badly especially with hazards cutting esp without the recovery of lefties, covert cloak blocking ability, and boots blocking hazards. A garg that has started to setup is a huge issue for most teams to overcome that arent smth like grass knot amoonguss (still lose to a neutral tera like dragon and ghost) and after a boost it may be to late for you. Even when you have the wrong tera for the MU you can still put in work.. there is rarely a time where it was like "dam garg isnt doing enough here" and often forces significant progress against many teams. I disagree with the argument that "knocking garg makes it dead" and I dont know why one would think like that.. this is not excadrill.. nor is it smth like SS swampert... nor is it a celesteela.
A set im running rn and I feel people dont use on ladder rn is salt cure, recover, ID, body press with max sp. def and a tera of ur choice depending on the team. Curse is also another set I am running.... this sets feels bullshit to play against and its a game of "does it have the right tera for the MU" if you answered yes then good for you, you are pretty smoked. But what if the answer is no? Garg is still an oppressive pokemon even if you try to c-team it... you have top hop hurdle over hurdle to try to be able to play against it and it just is not fun. What does garg add to the tier? Why should we keep it here? it just forces stupid items and makes tera guessing obnoxious and annoying..
What is your counterplay on a team? Can you ensure you can outplay a garg with 5 other teammates backing it up.. you are not playing 6v1 either where covert cloak amoonguss is keeping it the entire game... you are also playing a game where ur opponent is trying their best to win. Picture playing against yourself, can you really say you will just make it that easy for that amoonguss, alo, quaq and other covert cloak users to wall u
with a special Water move as it is a Rock typeThe Tera Water in its pocket:
Can we ban this thing already????
won’t save me because Knock OffTell me a ghost type running sub and tell me what if im running curse now? What is your way to break past that.. ID BP sure can be MU fish into some things but ive never seen such things. I have never seen these mons on ladder for a while now... esp with tera ghost and you can be sure im just not pulling these things out of my ass
Sub Dirge is not a set... You need torch song as stab, earth power for heatran... and that is it? You are fother for every dragon type out there and god forbid ur facing a water type
Even if you face a ghost type... you still put out an immense amount of pressure and that is not something a team can just put ... you are not putting sub sd iron hands... and god forbid you burnt tera before because you needed to. Picture yourself on the other side of the battle, are you telling me you have no plans against SD iron hands with sub tera ghost esp if they are popular meta threats? Maybe you packed curse or maybe you are running another tera to just tell it to go back to the builder and figure smth else out
Ummmm, that's my entire point? I'm not even disagreeing with you about Garg being oppressive, just trying to share things that make it even harder to handle and possibly too much for UU.
The meta is two weeks old and we just had our first round of QBs a week ago. Of course it isn't well adapted to a threat as unique and adaptable as Garg.
I'm just telling you how OU adapted to Garg. IronPress, specifically, eventually became primarily a low ladder thing because Curse was more consistent into subs designed to survive Salt Cure -- a tech that any special attacker that wants to can run. Yes, there's prediction involved to not come in on a Salt Cure. Obviously the power level makes a huge difference, too, in terms of special attackers that can immediately threaten ID Garg and put it in a recover loop or force it out before it can boost enough to force the attacker out (thus my maybe over-emphasis on ghosts). That's a major part of what would make Garg ban-worthy here even if it never quite reached that threshold on OU.
That said, Sub/Torch/EP/Slack Dirge absolutely was a set for teams worried about Garg (as a bonus, it doesn't really care about Curse sets, either). Garg can't stop it from Torch Songing up to +6, at which point it doesn't matter if it has SE coverage, you will run Garg out of Recovers. As far as inviting in other checks, even at just +1, it's chipping Hydreigon (for example) for 23% while Drei breaks the sub and going even harder if Drei tries to start setting up first. I've never been sold on SubSD Hands, but I've seen plenty of folks here talk about it being a major set that contributed to its original ban, which is why I bring it up.
Maybe Sub Sinistcha, Sub/CM Enam-T, or Sub/BU Okidogi -- none of which need Tera to sit on Garg forever -- are better examples in this meta, but the idea is the same. Obviously, sub takes up a slot that could be used by another move (Sinistcha has to choose between CM, Strength Sap, and Ghost STAB), but if your team doesn't have other great Garg answers, then you do what works, and it's not like Sub only offers protection against Salt Cure. Curse Garg, sets, on the other hand, *can* potentially beat these sub sets.
Which, again, not understanding the level of aggression. Not trying to say Garg is bad or not ban-worthy. I'm actually trying to emphasize its underexplored versatility outside of just defensive tera types. Sorry if it sounded like I was dumping on you in my excitement.
OU adapted to Garg by having a massive influx of powerful Pokemon that depopularized the team structures in which one would find a Garganacl. That's why it's in UU now. Offensive teams simply outgunned it, and new mons like Bloodmoon and Gliscor took advantage of it.
UU has so few mons who can consistently punish Garg or deny it a free Tera/set-up. You bring up Substitute mons that can punish Garganacl for relying on Salt Cure, but this comes at great cost for basically any set-up sweeper besides NP Hydrei. Sub Sinistcha is an unset--dropping a STAB move or Strength Sap just for a more consistent match-up against Garg (who Sinistcha should theoretically be able to beat) is a clear sign that Garg is not healthy. Same goes for the other examples: try dropping a coverage move on BU Okidogi and see how much harder it becomes to break opposing teams.
Sure there is counterplay, but it has to be spread across multiple Pokemon on any given team to account for the variety of Gargs that are viable in UU as it stands. We're talking moveset techs, Covert Cloak spam, specific Pokémon choices. It's not reasonable from a tiering perspective to permit one Pokémon to demand such attention in the builder.
Just want to be clear: I am fully on the "Garg is probably too much for UU" bandwagon, ID/BP on its own just isn't the reason why. :)
Quick update :
Council is voting on Garganacl, Iron Hands and Heatran. Official post will be released soon. I already voted (and I didn't fucked up thise time I swear). Heres my thoughts ; they're globally the same as in my last post which you could find here and that's why the explanations are shorter than usual.
BAN
I've been a hater of that block of rock since the beginning. Just fuck that thing. Salt Cure is the cringiest move ever and forces people to run either Covert Cloak or Substitute on basically a Pokémon by team. How is this a good thing for the tier ? Spoiler, it's not. The worst with this Pokémon is that it's not that passive due to its access to both Curse and Iron Defense which allows it to break a shit ton of things and handle so much hits. Its bulk is insane, it's one of the best user of Tera types and it's able to effectively use so many differents types (Dragon, Water, Ghost, Electric, Fairy)..which leads people to try go guess what Tera types they're supposed to face. Outside of setup Garg, this Pokémon can run Stealth Rock variants which are all really nasty due to Salt Cure chipping our remover in the long run and the fact it can adapt its filler slot for things such as Protect or Block. tl;dr : this Pokémon never dies, allows shenanigans because of Tera + setup moves and has access to an attack which is able to chip opponent's Pokémon effectively. Bruh.. send it to UUBL already.
BAN
I still believe Iron Hands is too beefy for the tier. It trades vs way too much foes and can adapt its coverage. I feel like Sub SD (Drain Punch + Thunder Punch) variants are really deadly. They do lack some coverage vs specific matchups (like Sinistcha) but outside of those scenarios they're frankly unhealthy. Nothing has changed since the last time I voted, this Pokémon is still a nuisance.
DNB
Even tho two great checks to Heatran have been banned, I still feel like this Pokémon is healthy for the tier. It's a good pivot to many threats and forces the like of Tornadus-T to run dedicated coverage if they want to bypass it. It's overall a good Pokémon and I don't see any reason to ban it right now.
Council is voting on Garganacl, Iron Hands and Heatran. Official post will be released soon. I already voted (and I didn't fucked up thise time I swear). Heres my thoughts ; they're globally the same as in my last post which you could find here and that's why the explanations are shorter than usual.
I've been a hater of that block of rock since the beginning. Just fuck that thing. Salt Cure is the cringiest move ever and forces people to run either Covert Cloak or Substitute on basically a Pokémon by team. How is this a good thing for the tier ? Spoiler, it's not. The worst with this Pokémon is that it's not that passive due to its access to both Curse and Iron Defense which allows it to break a shit ton of things and handle so much hits. Its bulk is insane, it's one of the best user of Tera types and it's able to effectively use so many differents types (Dragon, Water, Ghost, Electric, Fairy)..which leads people to try go guess what Tera types they're supposed to face. Outside of setup Garg, this Pokémon can run Stealth Rock variants which are all really nasty due to Salt Cure chipping our remover in the long run and the fact it can adapt its filler slot for things such as Protect or Block. tl;dr : this Pokémon never dies, allows shenanigans because of Tera + setup moves and has access to an attack which is able to chip opponent's Pokémon effectively. Bruh.. send it to UUBL already.
I still believe Iron Hands is too beefy for the tier. It trades vs way too much foes and can adapt its coverage. I feel like Sub SD (Drain Punch + Thunder Punch) variants are really deadly. They do lack some coverage vs specific matchups (like Sinistcha) but outside of those scenarios they're frankly unhealthy. Nothing has changed since the last time I voted, this Pokémon is still a nuisance.
Even tho two great checks to Heatran have been banned, I still feel like this Pokémon is healthy for the tier. It's a good pivot to many threats and forces the like of Tornadus-T to run dedicated coverage if they want to bypass it. It's overall a good Pokémon and I don't see any reason to ban it right now.
Here’s my thoughts on the three mons on the radar.
BAN
I think Garganacl is the most problematic Pokémon in the tier at the moment. Salt Cure is very hard to switch into, and forces multiple Pokémon to run either covert cloak or substitute, and really limits team structures. It can also become basically unkillable when terastalized, and it has multiple viable tera options which makes offensively checking it incredibly difficult. It’s incredibly uncompetitive, and isn’t suited at all for the current underused meta game.
DnB
While Iron Hands has absurd stats, that’s all it really has. While it’s typing is solid, it really isn’t that suited for a slow bulky set up sweeper, it has a decent move pool but lacks some tools it really needs, and it manages to be a tera hog while having poor tera options. I could see it being problematic later down the line, but as of now it doesn’t feel banworthy.
DnB
I don’t know why Heatran is on the chopping block. It’s definitely a great mon, but it feels very balanced and is a great addition to the tier.
BANI think Garganacl is the most problematic Pokémon in the tier at the moment. Salt Cure is very hard to switch into, and forces multiple Pokémon to run either covert cloak or substitute, and really limits team structures. It can also become basically unkillable when terastalized, and it has multiple viable tera options which makes offensively checking it incredibly difficult. It’s incredibly uncompetitive, and isn’t suited at all for the current underused meta game.
DnBWhile Iron Hands has absurd stats, that’s all it really has. While it’s typing is solid, it really isn’t that suited for a slow bulky set up sweeper, it has a decent move pool but lacks some tools it really needs, and it manages to be a tera hog while having poor tera options. I could see it being problematic later down the line, but as of now it doesn’t feel banworthy.
DnBI don’t know why Heatran is on the chopping block. It’s definitely a great mon, but it feels very balanced and is a great addition to the tier.
Radar time yay
Ban
Yeah this thing is downright miserable to play around. So many potential teras and all of which have different answers. Covert Cloak is not reliable counterplay in a tier with a bajillion knock offs flying around, nor should we need to rely on a single item to fend off this menace. Overall just get the salt monster out.
Unsure
Like on the one hand this thing has crazy stats and is annoying to bring down, but on the other hand.... thats... kinda it? It is super painful to bring down and can get out of control, but its not exactly hard to keep in control. Idk, its weird.
DNB
This guys chill, checks stuff, doesnt feel overbearing atm, overall nice guy.
BanYeah this thing is downright miserable to play around. So many potential teras and all of which have different answers. Covert Cloak is not reliable counterplay in a tier with a bajillion knock offs flying around, nor should we need to rely on a single item to fend off this menace. Overall just get the salt monster out.
UnsureLike on the one hand this thing has crazy stats and is annoying to bring down, but on the other hand.... thats... kinda it? It is super painful to bring down and can get out of control, but its not exactly hard to keep in control. Idk, its weird.
DNBThis guys chill, checks stuff, doesnt feel overbearing atm, overall nice guy.
Going to wait for the results of this week's SCL/UUSD games before locking in my votes, but right now I'm leaning towards banning Garganacl and not banning the other two.
I don't really think Garg is broken as I've stated before, but others have convinced me that it's impeding tier growth right now and considering we'll only have this meta for a few months, I feel it's appropriate to remove Garg from the DLC1 version of SV UU and revisit it in DLC2, assuming OU doesn't take it back. Iron Hands is just flat out not broken to me, it feels like the 4th best Fighting type on a good day due to its super low base power moves offsetting its great Attack and I struggle to find reasons to use it over Okidogi and Quaquaval after extensive testing. Heatran is just a Good Pokemon with many checks and many issues, don't see it as a problem at all.
I don't really think Garg is broken as I've stated before, but others have convinced me that it's impeding tier growth right now and considering we'll only have this meta for a few months, I feel it's appropriate to remove Garg from the DLC1 version of SV UU and revisit it in DLC2, assuming OU doesn't take it back. Iron Hands is just flat out not broken to me, it feels like the 4th best Fighting type on a good day due to its super low base power moves offsetting its great Attack and I struggle to find reasons to use it over Okidogi and Quaquaval after extensive testing. Heatran is just a Good Pokemon with many checks and many issues, don't see it as a problem at all.
This slate of suspects is interesting to me as it brings up a troupe I see in this tier at certain points. That being that we can be very adverse to centralization. Sometimes we can go beyond removing what is unhealthy to the meta to removing anything that has to be prepared for at all times. I think we’re kinda at that point now. All three of these mons (maybe not Hands lol) can be prepared for in ways that aren’t too restricting to team building.
For Garg, running Covert Cloak doesn’t make you necessarily weaker to other builds, it’s an overall good item. Mons like G-Weeze or Toedscreul are viable mons outside of checking Garg. Sinistcha is one of the best moms in the tier rn and uses it for set up fodder. Similar to how it functioned in OU Garg is a mon that could threaten a lot of teams if not prepared for, but could be almost a liability if it’s prepared for. Salt cure it’s it’s 40 BP STAB and you’re dealing with Body Press or EQ if they are running another attack. You can prepare for this mon in a number of ways that don’t have downside and in turn are able to make this mon useless. It can still setup if it’s the Iron Defense set but still that can be beat. If Garg stays, which truly I’m indifferent to, it will be a high usage mon that players can prepare with out much restriction on overall build quality or strategy. DNB
Heatran is the perfect example of mon that should be able to centralize the tier without question of a ban. It’s typing ability and very predictable Tera (for good reason) Grass make it great defensively. Only being weak to Bug and Flying when there aren’t many mons that want to switch into a Magma Storm is strong. Offensively is another story in my opinion. It’s offensive utility starts and ends with Magma Storm. This moves ability to trap possible checks is amazing and shouldn’t be underestimated. The issue is that it’s 70% accurate with low PP. It two most common coverage moves Earth Power and Tera Blast rely on this move to start to put a dent in the opposing team. When we start to talk about what Heatran traps it starts to become clear that it’s no where unhealthy. It traps mons that aren’t true checks to it. Mons like Alo Rotom Gatro Ttar and opposing Heatran are some of the strongest checks/counters to Heatran and have reasonable counter play to put momentum back in their favor. I think the best set to use in order to capitalize on Magma Storm is a Tera Blast set as you able to nab KOs on mons like Alo or Gastro with committing Tera. This strategy can open up for other mons but I still don’t see that as unhealthy personally. I see Heatran as a mon that should be top 5-10 in usage and treated in team building and in play as such. Nothing more nothing less. DNB
Iron Hands to me has become the closest to ban worthy. It’s bulk make it able to check moms defensively, set up, hard to revenge. It’s not bulky enough to do all three of those in a game reliably but the versatility and sheer impact is huge. Outside of status spreaders and strong Grounds, it isn’t easily punished with most team builds. With Tera it can make what ever check that is in front of it become setup fodder. I kinda convincing my self that it should be banned as I’m thinking over and typing this lol. Even with all that there needs to be some finesse and strategy with this mon to able to sweep. Sinistcha Weezing and the overall increase of offensive potential in the tier make this mon more reasonable than it was in the meta before the drops. You have to be able to clear a path for it to sweep still. I think the margin of error with this finesse etc. is much higher that other sweepers due to the fact and it can tank a hit a Drain Punch back the health. I’m leaning BAN on this but I don’t think that it’s as auto win as the mons seen in the first slate of bans.
I think that a larger question should be asked on what is our comfortability with centralization. We have all seen at least one person say that “this meta is a different version OU” in some way recently. With that, I think that some expectation of centralization should be expected. In OU there’s Kingambit, in my opinion, it’s more restrictive to team building it it’s meta than anything were talking about here (that’s kinda a different discussion tho). The point is that usage will always be centered around a few mons, at a time that was Tinkaton and Talonflame. Those mons are barely viable now. I think we need to understand that with this power creep that team building can’t be perfect and you can’t patch every hole but there are thing you always need to prep for.
For Garg, running Covert Cloak doesn’t make you necessarily weaker to other builds, it’s an overall good item. Mons like G-Weeze or Toedscreul are viable mons outside of checking Garg. Sinistcha is one of the best moms in the tier rn and uses it for set up fodder. Similar to how it functioned in OU Garg is a mon that could threaten a lot of teams if not prepared for, but could be almost a liability if it’s prepared for. Salt cure it’s it’s 40 BP STAB and you’re dealing with Body Press or EQ if they are running another attack. You can prepare for this mon in a number of ways that don’t have downside and in turn are able to make this mon useless. It can still setup if it’s the Iron Defense set but still that can be beat. If Garg stays, which truly I’m indifferent to, it will be a high usage mon that players can prepare with out much restriction on overall build quality or strategy. DNB
Heatran is the perfect example of mon that should be able to centralize the tier without question of a ban. It’s typing ability and very predictable Tera (for good reason) Grass make it great defensively. Only being weak to Bug and Flying when there aren’t many mons that want to switch into a Magma Storm is strong. Offensively is another story in my opinion. It’s offensive utility starts and ends with Magma Storm. This moves ability to trap possible checks is amazing and shouldn’t be underestimated. The issue is that it’s 70% accurate with low PP. It two most common coverage moves Earth Power and Tera Blast rely on this move to start to put a dent in the opposing team. When we start to talk about what Heatran traps it starts to become clear that it’s no where unhealthy. It traps mons that aren’t true checks to it. Mons like Alo Rotom Gatro Ttar and opposing Heatran are some of the strongest checks/counters to Heatran and have reasonable counter play to put momentum back in their favor. I think the best set to use in order to capitalize on Magma Storm is a Tera Blast set as you able to nab KOs on mons like Alo or Gastro with committing Tera. This strategy can open up for other mons but I still don’t see that as unhealthy personally. I see Heatran as a mon that should be top 5-10 in usage and treated in team building and in play as such. Nothing more nothing less. DNB
Iron Hands to me has become the closest to ban worthy. It’s bulk make it able to check moms defensively, set up, hard to revenge. It’s not bulky enough to do all three of those in a game reliably but the versatility and sheer impact is huge. Outside of status spreaders and strong Grounds, it isn’t easily punished with most team builds. With Tera it can make what ever check that is in front of it become setup fodder. I kinda convincing my self that it should be banned as I’m thinking over and typing this lol. Even with all that there needs to be some finesse and strategy with this mon to able to sweep. Sinistcha Weezing and the overall increase of offensive potential in the tier make this mon more reasonable than it was in the meta before the drops. You have to be able to clear a path for it to sweep still. I think the margin of error with this finesse etc. is much higher that other sweepers due to the fact and it can tank a hit a Drain Punch back the health. I’m leaning BAN on this but I don’t think that it’s as auto win as the mons seen in the first slate of bans.
I think that a larger question should be asked on what is our comfortability with centralization. We have all seen at least one person say that “this meta is a different version OU” in some way recently. With that, I think that some expectation of centralization should be expected. In OU there’s Kingambit, in my opinion, it’s more restrictive to team building it it’s meta than anything were talking about here (that’s kinda a different discussion tho). The point is that usage will always be centered around a few mons, at a time that was Tinkaton and Talonflame. Those mons are barely viable now. I think we need to understand that with this power creep that team building can’t be perfect and you can’t patch every hole but there are thing you always need to prep for.
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have to disagree, theres no other reason to run covert cloak and all its users would rather have different items, amoongus alomomoma and gastrodon want rocky helmet/Heavy-duty-boots and sinistcha wants leftovers most of the time, but because of garganacl they have to use an item thats going to be useless 90% of the time in any interaction that isnt with garg, also Alomomola and Amoonguss tend to be knock absorvers/targets for knock off, which makes it even more restrictive cuz everything has knock off now
Just dropping some of my thoughts
Garg for me has been incredibly mixed in terms of its performance, and I think a lot of that is because of how dependent on Tera it can be and the teams I’ve been using. There’s no denying that it’s a very strong Pokémon in its own right, with Curse and Iron Defense sets being the most common ones run, and Block being something I’ve tried on ladder. I think a decent number of offensive Pokémon can overwhelm it, like Band Meowscarada, SD Weavile and Taunt Heatran, but I feel like Garg itself ends up being the one to overwhelm the opponent more often than not. There is of course the argument of Covert Cloak, Sub, and my personal favourite in Trick as common countermeasures but I believe Garg sits as being an “unhealthy” mon rather than a “broken” one however, and I wouldn’t be opposed to seeing a ban due to this.
Honestly kind of mid?? I feel like there are so many other fighting types in the tier that I want to put on my team like Quaquaval, Mienshao, Okidogi and even Infernape has taken its spot on a team before. I could maybe see it being a bit more problematic in the future due to how insanely bulky and powerful it is, but I’ve been able to wear it down in games I’ve played quickly thanks to heavy residual and just generally out-speeding it and smacking it in the face with a super-effective move. Gonna have to say do not ban, but keep an eye on.
This guy is cool and I think we should just let him stick around, defensive sets are really nice to have in the tier and offensive is something I haven’t seen enough of, but specs and ebelt tran with either 4 attacks or 3a + rocks are both really strong and fun sets to bring. This guy functions as a really nice glue for the tier, being able to keep a number of offensive Pokémon like Meow and Munki in check while keeping defensive Pokémon like Amoonguss and Torn-T on their toes, so I’d say do not ban.
Garg for me has been incredibly mixed in terms of its performance, and I think a lot of that is because of how dependent on Tera it can be and the teams I’ve been using. There’s no denying that it’s a very strong Pokémon in its own right, with Curse and Iron Defense sets being the most common ones run, and Block being something I’ve tried on ladder. I think a decent number of offensive Pokémon can overwhelm it, like Band Meowscarada, SD Weavile and Taunt Heatran, but I feel like Garg itself ends up being the one to overwhelm the opponent more often than not. There is of course the argument of Covert Cloak, Sub, and my personal favourite in Trick as common countermeasures but I believe Garg sits as being an “unhealthy” mon rather than a “broken” one however, and I wouldn’t be opposed to seeing a ban due to this.
Honestly kind of mid?? I feel like there are so many other fighting types in the tier that I want to put on my team like Quaquaval, Mienshao, Okidogi and even Infernape has taken its spot on a team before. I could maybe see it being a bit more problematic in the future due to how insanely bulky and powerful it is, but I’ve been able to wear it down in games I’ve played quickly thanks to heavy residual and just generally out-speeding it and smacking it in the face with a super-effective move. Gonna have to say do not ban, but keep an eye on.
This guy is cool and I think we should just let him stick around, defensive sets are really nice to have in the tier and offensive is something I haven’t seen enough of, but specs and ebelt tran with either 4 attacks or 3a + rocks are both really strong and fun sets to bring. This guy functions as a really nice glue for the tier, being able to keep a number of offensive Pokémon like Meow and Munki in check while keeping defensive Pokémon like Amoonguss and Torn-T on their toes, so I’d say do not ban.
Cloak avoids things like flinch and status. Flinch Jirachi who isn’t that good rn is countered by Cloak. Half of Sinistchas moves on the standard set have recovery. We’re not gonna act like it needs lefties. It literally uses cloak to set up on Garg. Alo can’t beat IDBP Garg period. I don’t think Amoongus needs cloak to annoy Garg. Gastro can lose some IDBP matchups even w cloak. All the defensive mons u brought up also are getting knocked in most games. I don’t think it’s wise to use those mons in that way. It’s not hard to use mons like Sinistcha or Slowking w cloak bc they shouldn’t be in matchups with mons with Knock. This goes into proper play and team building. In you have a cloak mon that can get momentum off or set up on Garg, it’s literally a liability.
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Still, sinistcha is running covert cloak only and only because of gargnacl, flinch jirachi is not good enough to warrant using it, there is no pokemon that would rather use covert cloak if garganacl didnt exist.
You would only run cloak for Jirachi if your team has a massive weakness to it somehow, and while there are some specific scenarios where can be useful, it is only seeing common usage because of Garg, and a pokemon forcing an item on almost every team is a big problem for teambuilding, and impedes set creativity and teambuilding options.
Again by running it you can set up on it and win. You also avoid get haxed by secondary status conditions. I don’t think we’ve ever had a mon that was supposed to be broken but at the same time you to lose with it if you use its main “broken” move at the wrong time. If you salt cure on a mon with cloak that can either set up or pivot you’re making a bad play. It makes Garg a liability bc it doesn’t do much outside of cure. I haven’t even brought up sub yet.
Still garganacl is to restrictive in the teambuilder, it makes every ghost type in the tier that isnt sinistcha ridiculously bad, its immune to status, will run over teams that dont resort to running covert cloak or a sub hydreigon, which means teams will eventually resort to bringing teammates that can stop these counters, all that while not adding anything healthy to the tier.
This goes back to what I said before. A mon being centralizing doesn’t make it broken. If Garg isn’t banned it’ll be very high in usage. You can run Cloak and now 9/10 times you now have the upper hand in that match up. There are so many other mons in the tier that if you don’t run a check to you lose to immediately that are more restrictive to ACTUAL team building. We’re talking about an item or a move rending a mon useless.
Idt cloak is worth it at all, half the time you run it you end up taking as much damage from hazards from not having boots as you would've taken from salt cure if you didn't have it anyway, if you know what you're doing you probably won't lose to garg outright but imo it forces a lot of passive counterplay in order to actually be able to switch into it and consistently and effortlessly forces too much progress to be a healthy presence in the tier, + it has game ending potential if you run into the wrong tera or whatever, + beating garg is not the same thing as beating garg and friends and its a lot easier to account for its weaknesses through its teammates than people make out, just don't mindlessly click salt cure into hydreigon/hands for no reason
I don't quite think Covert Cloak is a positive argument against Garga's ban, the scenario in which you completely setup in Garg's face to a game-winning point is hopeful at best, since a lot of the Pokemon that generally hold Cloak are usually super telegraphed (usually something bulky that can't lose to either Curse Earthquake or Iron Defense Body Press in the 1v1.) meaning Garg usually knows when to start playing cat and mouse. Speaking of, Covert Cloak means you cannot hold Heavy Duty Boots or Leftovers, leaving you at the mercy of hazard damage. Which brings me to another point, Garga is an amazing team player. If the theoretical universe happens where Covert Cloak Sinistcha or whatever worms it's way onto every team, it'll just play trapper or Stealth Rock (Tera ghost Garga is the best spinblocker UU has ever had btw) and avoid the Covert Cloak mon while messing with it's teammates, far from the 5v6 that one would think a strong Covert Cloak user creates on paper. And the fact that Garga's answers are generally pretty steamlined means the ball is always in the Garga player's court to mess with common checks and exploit the pokemon that commonly exploit Garg. A centralizing pokemon isn't always an unhealthy one. (Look at Heatran, who I do not believe is nearly as troublesome.) But I think Garga is a pokemon that will actually favor the tier being built on it's back, as it can casually adapt and picking the right squad to partner up with to compliment it's traits will be far easier than making a team that can always get Garga's check in the ideal position despite all the chaos going on around Garga and the Covert Cloak mon. Garga and the Cloak mon might not see eachother in a game Garga is winning in other ways. Hell, Garga's mere presence can often force teams to play around it's check, If you have a Salt Cure answer, you're going to be very stingy on playing what isn't the Salt Cure answer right into Garga's hands, letting the Garga player control the pace of the game. I do think Garga is a little over the edge, but whether it gets banned or not, I'm going to tell you right now not to underestimate it and respect the scariest Garga pilots, don't just slap a Covert Cloak randomly somewhere in your builder and think you autowin against Garg teams, this mon is only going to get better as people really figure it out.
This doesnt mean garg isnt broken at all. Sure centralization can be nice for a tier, but only when the centralization aids you in the builder, not hinders you like garg does. Needing to run an item for one specific matchup when you would much rather have boots or leftovers is extremely irritating and hinders the effectiveness of many mons. Not to mention how many things that DO use cloak for garg are prime knock targets, examples being
and 
, who very often get their item removed by 
. Also, garg can just, beat some of these cloak users anyways if it has the right tera type and set, in fact i think is the only one it cant pull some shenanigans to beat. Im pretty sure the only form of counterplay that doesnt involve hampering a mon for this one mu is using 
on every team and just... trading it by spamming pain split until both you and garg are low and one of you kicks the bucket, then the garg is either dead or too low to do anything. However, if you needed gweez to check anything else, like or or whatnot, womp womp, too bad. Overall, counterplay to garg either involves running one specific mon that doesnt even really "win" against it or hampering a mon with the need to run an item thats virtually useless elsewhere while pretending knock off isnt real- Status