Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[BolTingBlazie]

i think you just got unlucky man— i don't mean this in an insulting way ofc but i'm also in the lower Elo and have no idea what youre talking about www

Maushold has always been there, though it's not like it's unbeatable since you can switch in a Rocky Helmet user and watch that HP go down lmao. Idk why persian is there but go off yk

as for wugtrio, uh. gestures at palafin aha—

Like honestly why would you even run Wugtrio over something really good like Bundle, Palafin, or Quaquaval? All three of those are infinitely better pokemon that are very viable in OU compared to Wugtrio. (Okay Wugtrio does have a fringe use with fast memento, but there are bulkier memento users like Pyukumuku even if Pyukumuku isn't really that good.) My point being everything wugtrio wants to do something else does better, so I don't know why low ladder is using Wugtrio... Low Ladder confuses me sometimes...

 

[amberturdz]

I dont see the reasoning of nerfing heal bell into the ground. Not to mention theres no tapus in the meta right now, so Amoonguss and Breloom will jump up a lot in rank, since you cant heal bell from it, or use Tapus. Besides Blissey who was also nerfed into the ground.

 

[Karxrida]

Now that im thinking about it, tera changes are kinda like Random Crits in TF2, you know they are bad and they sometimes shit on what would be an excelent strategy, yet they are fun when you do it, even if it feels undeserved, I still think its too early to ban the gimmick and wait untill how tera warps the tournament

This is a faulty comparison because you can't build your entire strategy around random crits since they're, you know, random. And they can miss. And they don't affect buildings. And your crockets can be reflected back at you. And they can end up doing barely any damage because bullet spread said "fuck you". If anything Tera is like the Kritzkreig (guaranteed crits for 8 seconds), which can be ridiculously devastating in the hands of a competent player but not an instant win button because counterplay exists.

Yes I've played a lot of TF2 how can you tell.

 

[rosesscythes]

On a new note, thoughts on Armarouge / Cerluedge? Definitely seen more of the latter, typically running something like Weak Armour + SD + BBlade + Sneak. Haven’t seen much of Rouge, which isn’t surprising given that Super Dolphin and Santa’s Little Helper are currently cleaning house.

I could potentially see a small niche for SD+Sneak Cedge once Pult finishes reaching its full potential as an Anti-Shedtail measure, but don’t know what advantages that even has over something like Iron Valiant.

I am so sad that Ceru doesn't get Sharpness, it even has swords for arms c'mon.

I've seen some sets running Jolly Weak Armor max atk/spe with Bitter Blade/ S Sneak / Close Combat / Swords Dance (or other coverage move if choice'd) but i don't think it has a place in the current OU metagame, maybe a UU or RU mon. Too slow and not bulky enough to make use of that big attack stat, but I personaly like that the fire/ghost is physical for a change.

Said it veeeery early in the thread, but I really love Ceruledge, and I think max/max is the wrong way to go. It's got effectively more Sp. Def than Mega Scizor, and while it lacks the same defense, it has just enough to live a lot with investment. It also has Bitter Blade instead of needing Roost. I've been running Weak Armor with the Scizor spread of Impish plus 248 HP/16 Def/244 Sp. Def (which may not be optimized but works well enough), with SD, Blade, CC, and Sneak and either Weakness Policy or Colbur. Live the hit necessary for a boost in either offense or speed, especially with screens support, kill what's in front of it, and recover when possible. It's not the best Pokemon in the meta, especially right now. I don't even think it'll be properly OU material even after bans. But its sweeping potential is FUN and good enough that I think it'll get UU at worst, and far more likely to be UUBL (carrying on the proud tradition of the likes of Mega Gallade and Aegislash of being a literal BL Knight). Niche, but a good niche that satisfies me after initially seeing it and being disappointed on paper. More than Sharpness, I think the one shame of it is not getting Power Trip.

 

[1LDK]

This is a faulty comparison because you can't build your entire strategy around random crits since they're, you know, random. And they can miss. And they don't affect buildings. And your crockets can be reflected back at you. And they can end up doing barely any damage because bullet spread said "fuck you". If anything Tera is like the Kritzkreig (guaranteed crits for 8 seconds), which can be ridiculously devastating in the hands of a competent player but not an instant win button because counterplay exists.

Yes I've played a lot of TF2 how can you tell.

Kinda based, but im still using wrangler + rescue ranger + jag because im the fucking defense
speaking of defense, how is hard stall doing? you know, the "do nothing and get kills anyway" stall, I think that if tera and broken mons are sstill on the meta, hard stall will die, but stall will eventually start going for some form of offensive mons, we are already seeing things like Nasty Plot Golhdengo, and when pursuit was still around, Choice Scarf Ttar was a great partner, im on the belive that both donphans will help on this

 

[Player J]

Is it because you’re running Scarfed Iron Bundle with Whirlpool?

Have you ever faced a player using a Cyclizar Lead into a turn 1 Shed Tail?
Well I haven’t!

It’s impossible for the enemy Cyclizar to do Shed Tail when they are facing down a Scarf Iron Bundle using Whirlpool.
I’m just saying


This is also why I use U-Turn instead of Flip Turn on Iron Bundle just incase I run into Clodsire lead with Water Absorb.

 

[Player J]

Can we all just take a moment to establish what Palafin people are talking about?
I’m confused.

People keep saying Palafin is broken, but they are not saying which Palafin is Broken.
Their is 2 different Palafin‘s.
- Regular Palafin
- Palafin Hero

The Palafin I fight against isn’t broken.
The Palafin I fight against is bad.

I think the Palafin I fight against is the Regular Palafin.
I have never seen Palafin Hero.

 

[1LDK]

Can we all just take a moment to establish what Palafin people are talking about?
I’m confused.

People keep saying Palafin is broken, but they are not saying which Palafin is Broken.
Their is 2 different Palafin‘s.
- Regular Palafin
- Palafin Hero

The Palafin I fight against isn’t broken.
The Palafin I fight against is bad.

I think the Palafin I fight against is the Regular Palafin.
I have never seen Palafin Hero.

When you used a move like flip turn or U turn to switch out, you go from palafin normal to palafin hero, palafin hero is the one that is broken

 

[Player J]

When you used a move like flip turn or U turn to switch out, you go from palafin normal to palafin hero, palafin hero is the one that is broken

Are you sure?
I see a lot of Palafin’s doing Flip Turn and when they come back they are still Regular Palafin.
They don’t change at all.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Are you sure?
I see a lot of Palafin’s doing Flip Turn and when they come back they are still Regular Palafin.
They don’t change at all.

Palafin hero I believe does not has a model/sprite at the moment that is implemented if I remember correctly

So despite the forme change it looks the same

 

[Porygon2Bandit]

Kinda based, but im still using wrangler + rescue ranger + jag because im the fucking defense
speaking of defense, how is hard stall doing? you know, the "do nothing and get kills anyway" stall, I think that if tera and broken mons are sstill on the meta, hard stall will die, but stall will eventually start going for some form of offensive mons, we are already seeing things like Nasty Plot Golhdengo, and when pursuit was still around, Choice Scarf Ttar was a great partner, im on the belive that both donphans will help on this

Weathering the storm.

The circles I've watched have settled on a foundation of Blissey/Clod/Corv and then usually Avalugg (Fire, Fairy, Fighting option), Dondozo and pick one Skelidirge/Ghouldengo. Options that have shown up include Slowking/toxapex over Dondozo, and Avalugg is not used on teams that have a different more dedicated type change.

There's a heavy reliance on boots already and a scary weakness to Garganacl usually. Especially ghost type tera garganacl, which Avalugg cannot counter with fighting press.

The other major issue that's rearing up is Great Tusk. Different teams have different answers but almost universally two of our mons are EQ weak and our EQ answer is Corv. You cannot currently really spinblock Great Tusk without him killing your ground-weak ghosts and even a Balloon Gholdengo set (generally more offense) is vulnerable to a knock off.

There are clearly some mons out there that stall cannot handle, which the primary is Nasty Plot Chi-Yu. Put behind a shed tail, its game over no matter what sets you have in so far as I've seen. Another one that I saw in TR is Iron Fists, which has a really great array of attacks and the Fist Item will actually be great. Unwallable? I don't think so? But its currently unaccounted for. Lastly, I've seen Annihilape start to become a consistently good answer to stall with Sub Bulk up.

In response, my expectations are that Toadscruel comes to see some viability as we move on (as it can spin vs Gholdengo too), or that Sylveon may even see the light of day if Shed tail/bulk up Annihilape continues to be a pain in the ass. Probably in conjunction with each other because Toadscruel will demand a wish pass set. As of right now, I think Skeli is more useful than Gholdengho due to whirlwind, but that means a team like that cannot expect hazards to stay. Just prevents BS shedtail setups from screwing you immediately. Toxic Spikes are really hard to keep up right now (see: Great Tusk/Iron Tread can just clear them whenever) but they're kinda the most important piece to preventing mons like Palafin/Annihilape/Chi Yu from dumping on us.

Like Sylveon, other eeveeloutions are completely untested but Vaporeon is an interesting prospects with Tera typing. Water Absorb means going Fire or Ground becomes a relatively tantalizing option. Fire specifically means it beats Iron Bundle, but overlaps another ground weakness. So Fire right now, but after its gone I'd think some other types could get play. I tried some calcs on Espeon yesterday as an offensive lead? Like maybe a screen and some weird tera set to counter Glimmora. No real luck, the bulk is too lackluster and the movepool is yet to show any real factor compared to a grimsnarl in situations not specifically vs Glimmora.

 

[Kataphraktoi]

I havnt seen this being discussed much, but at some point I hope Good as Gold pops up on the radar to be examined. I see a hazard stacking metagame with no way to clear the field emerging, and it feels quite unpleasant to play. The ability in general just shutting down all status moves directed at it seems quite odd, and the pokemon itself is pretty decent to say the least with multiple good sets;defensive, offensive NP, scarfing, specs, substitute etc etc

 

[AtlasFlame18]

Palafin hero I believe does not has a model/sprite at the moment that is implemented if I remember correctly

Palafin's hero model only changes when you terastalize. On the side where you can see the opponents team the sprite does change but it's not noticeable. It's definitely tripped up some people who aren't fully accustomed to the new mons.

 

[AzureRazor]

Have you ever faced a player using a Cyclizar Lead into a turn 1 Shed Tail?
Well I haven’t!

It’s impossible for the enemy Cyclizar to do Shed Tail when they are facing down a Scarf Iron Bundle using Whirlpool.
I’m just saying


This is also why I use U-Turn instead of Flip Turn on Iron Bundle just incase I run into Clodsire lead with Water Absorb.

can’t you just use freeze dry? Iron bundle has a higher base speed than cyclizar and would probably do enough damage to get it below the hp range where you can use shed tail.

 

[Soiramio3000]

iron bundle is OP but since it is the only reliable counter to roaring moon both of these pokemon need to be banned at the same time.

without iron bundle then roaring moon will go rampart and make the whole metagame too centralizing.

 

[AtlasFlame18]

I genuinely feel like that nothing should be banned until showdown fully implements all the changes that Gen 9 has brought. A lot of meta defining aspects are not working properly (namely Revival Blessing) or have been misidentified (Protosynthesis/Quark Drive mechanics) that should be accounted for when evaluating the meta as a whole.


I think that any bans should be discussed once the ladder is fully functional and we can have a more holistic analysis of the metagame.



EDIT: The fact that Palafin's sprite doesn't work properly means there are definitely people misplaying against it because they aren't seeing the transformation and that cannot be acceptable for a competitive environment.

 

[alephgalactus]

Palafin hero I believe does not has a model/sprite at the moment that is implemented if I remember correctly

So despite the forme change it looks the same

Palafin's hero model only changes when you terastalize. On the side where you can see the opponents team the sprite does change but it's not noticeable. It's definitely tripped up some people who aren't fully accustomed to the new mons.

What are you guys talking about? It changes normally to me on both sides of the field.

can’t you just use freeze dry? Iron bundle has a higher base speed than cyclizar and would probably do enough damage to get it below the hp range where you can use shed tail.

I wouldn’t bother trying to use facts and logic against someone who thinks Wugtrio and Maushold are OP.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

iron bundle is OP but since it is the only reliable counter to roaring moon both of these pokemon need to be banned at the same time.

without iron bundle then roaring moon will go rampart and make the whole metagame too centralizing.

Roaring moon shouldn't be looked into until terastal gets suspected, as I feel without it, Roaring Moon should not be too bad, since terastal is what pushes it over the edge. Bundle and Palafin we already know would likely be broken without terastal anyway

I havnt seen this being discussed much, but at some point I hope Good as Gold pops up on the radar to be examined. I see a hazard stacking metagame with no way to clear the field emerging, and it feels quite unpleasant to play. The ability in general just shutting down all status moves directed at it seems quite odd, and the pokemon itself is pretty decent to say the least with multiple good sets;defensive, offensive NP, scarfing, specs, substitute etc etc

There are ways to deal with Goldengo, one good counter to it in particular is Iron Treads, which can beat Goldengo 1v1 and get a rapid spin off.

 

[AtlasFlame18]

What are you guys talking about? It changes normally to me on both sides of the field.

It does not work for everyone. I've had opponents not realize that my Palafin has transformed because the sprite didn't change.

 

[G-Luke]

I want to move the conversation away from individual Pokémon to ask a question about how the new metagame aspects (i.e. deletions) feel?

1. How has the widespread removal of Scald affected your battle quality? Does it feel better? Worse? How has the removal Scald affect how players pilot bulkier teams?
2. Has the decreased distribution of Knock Off affect your teambuilding approach compared to last generation?
3. Has the Defog distribution nerf affect your ability to put hazard removal onto your team, or have you been handling fine regardless?

Scald nerf is a complete overkill. This isn't Gen 6 anymore, Scald isn't the best move in the game. Pokémon like Palafin would be much easier to handle if a Toxapex or a Slowking could switch in and burn it with Scald, effectively stopping that disaster fish's sweep. If you know Scald is here, you have to play alot more intelligent with Palafin to pull it off. It's just an example of Gamefreak having a heavy handed approach to nerfing things without thinking about the consequences.

Knock Off removal was 100% justified imo. Knock Off was simply too good of a move, and in hindsight should have never been buffed in the first place. Knock Off being kept to key utility based Pokemon imo is the best way to distribute the move right now. So rare win from Gamefreak.

When I learnt that Defog was getting roadblocked like Scald, but Ferrothorn was out and Corvi was in, I was like, damn, but we still good. But then they gave everything Spikes. And then they made a Pokemon that's immune to three different variants of hazard control. So now it's just Boots city, and that pretty much sucks.

 

[Player J]

Palafin's hero model only changes when you terastalize. On the side where you can see the opponents team the sprite does change but it's not noticeable. It's definitely tripped up some people who aren't fully accustomed to the new mons.

Does that mean you don’t get Palafin Hero Stats, until you Terastalize?
The Regular Palafin stats are not very impressive.

 

[AtlasFlame18]

Does that mean you don’t get Palafin Hero Stats, until you Terastalize?
The Regular Palafin stats are not very impressive.

The stats do change but the appearance does not and that's what trips people up. Because what appears to be the weak Palafin is actually the Uber form that just got a free bulk up and now in position to sweep your team.

 

[Player J]

can’t you just use freeze dry? Iron bundle has a higher base speed than cyclizar and would probably do enough damage to get it below the hp range where you can use shed tail.

The Damage Calculator for New Generation isn’t up, yet.
I don’t know if it will do more damage or not.
I think Whirlpool does more damage.

 

[Soiramio3000]

Roaring moon shouldn't be looked into until terastal gets suspected, as I feel without it, Roaring Moon should not be too bad, since terastal is what pushes it over the edge. Bundle and Palafin we already know would likely be broken without terastal anyway

wrong, this pokemon's ability let's it boost its speed without using choice scarf.
most pokemon can't outrun with or without the terastal in place.
the ones who can outrun it aren't that reliable.

the only one that doesn't need to outrun it is brelloom since it has a technician boosted STAB mach punch and this pokemon has a couple of flaws.

 

[Critaquil]

The Damage Calculator for New Generation isn’t up, yet.
I don’t know if it will do more damage or not.
I think Whirlpool does more damage.

whirlpool is a resisted move with low base power
freeze dry is a super effective move with much higher base power
I don't see a world where whirlpool does more damage

wrong, this pokemon's ability let's it boost its speed without using choice scarf.
most pokemon can't outrun with or without the terastal in place.
the ones who can outrun it aren't that reliable.

the only one that doesn't need to outrun it is brelloom since it has a technician boosted STAB mach punch and this pokemon has a couple of flaws.

outrunning everything doesn't make it automatically broken
there are ways to beat something outside of priority, the mon has plenty of defensive counterplay without tera in the mix
also without the attack boost you don't really hit all that hard, and without the speed boost you struggle with faster threats, it has to chose between struggling vs offensive counterplay or struggling vs defensive counterplay, it can't do both, without tera it's checks are reliable and you can deal with it fairly consistantly, theres still a chance it might be broken, but I'd wait until a tiering decicion regarding tera before looking to ban it.