Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[Bold School]

Psyspam was already on its way out without Moon’s involvement. Between Rillaboom, Darts Pult, Samu, Ting-Lu, Tera Dark Unaware Clod, etc, there wasn’t anyway that Psyspam can flourish. You need to play it perfectly.

In my experience, it's not too hard to make up for the flaws of Psyspam with proper complimentary coverage. The biggest issue is speed control. Pult didn't actually give me too much of an issue because it almost never runs Choice Scarf. The things that are troublesome are in the boosted metagame and/or increasing their speed with setup moves. Pult can technically DD I guess, but it wasn't that common when I faced it.

Another issue is momentum. The need to set up Psychic Terrain again is often a huge momentum sink. At some point, you come in to set up PT and the opponent takes advantage of your Indeedee since it's not a real pokemon. The issue with Moon is it can do that to many more of your mons than just Indeedee. This is true for quite a lot of teams besides Psychic Terrain, but PT is particularly a bad matchup that Moon almost singularly invalidates. Without it, you could potentially be in much better shape against the rest of the boosted metagame with just one or two adjustments.

I don’t know what Balance structures Moon invalidates exactly. Having to rely on one mon as your physical wall (especially if its Skarm) is not ideal in this meta and its not because of Moon, its because there are often 2-3 physical attackers on a team that can overwhelm that one bulky wall on the team. Running 2 physical walls like Mola + Corv or Dozo + Tusk or Impish Garg + Gliscor is fine enough, most modern Balances are gravitating towards that anyways.

If you spend both your walls checking Moon, you may have issues checking much else. Even if you stop the sweep, you might have lost your defensive back bone. If you were to run something like Tusk + Garg, you might lose to Tera Flying/Acrobatics/EQ even if you stop the sweep since your defensive backbone will be wrecked. You have to run more specific combos. If you wanted to run a 3 and 3 balance with Glowking, you have to be extremely careful about what supporting physical walls and priority you use or you'll just lose to Moon. BE Valiant or slower isn't proper speed control against it. And if you don't pack priority at all, you lose to Moon because you won't be able to revenge BE speed or if it gets an extra DD off. If you run into Grassy Seed Roaring Moon or a different Tera than you expected, the priority you were banking on to revenge kill it might be out of range from the norm.

Aside from Psychic Terrain, structures with Glowking/Tusk or even Glowking/Zama in some cases may just lose to Tera Flying. Dozo and Corv need to beware of Taunt. Heatran is another thing you need to be careful about using in the event of EQ coverage. That was always true for Heatran, but my point is Moon's existence really requires you to use very specific supporting mons and Tera with most of those combos rather than to diversify.

-You could try your hand with Itemless Skarm which can actually check Moon. Considering Skarm is itemless 95% of the time cause its always eating Knock, I think this is fine, arguably better than the standard.

I appreciate all the suggestions, but I don't run Skarm over Corv in most structures. I don't usually run itemless sets to take Knock Off, either. I'll run a Grassy Seed or a Colbur Berry before I do that. Just my preferences.

How would you EV it?

Raging Bolt @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Def / 220 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 20 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Body Press
- Thunderclap
- Dragon Pulse

This is the set I run. I have max defense for BP, just enough HP to get to 400, and high special attack to still be threatening. I wanted this to function as sort of a bulky, pseudo mixed attacker. It was also important to me to have it be as threatening as possible after a Calm Mind boost given no BE. Tera Fighting was to boost BP in a pinch and resist Sucker Punch if needed. It's also better than Tera Fairy against Gambit.

Depending on what you are trying to do, you might want to change up the EVs to be faster or more bulky. You can take some out of special attack if you feel you need less. Generally, you don't want to go too low on special attack with Bolt. However, even a Bolt set with no investment in special bulk is better than - special attack to get a defense boost. You don't want to weaken Thunderclap too much.

 

[Cuddly]

In my experience, it's not too hard to make up for the flaws of Psyspam with proper complimentary coverage. The biggest issue is speed control. Pult didn't actually give me too much of an issue because it almost never runs Choice Scarf. The things that are troublesome are in the boosted metagame and/or increasing their speed with setup moves. Pult can technically DD I guess, but it wasn't that common when I faced it.

Another issue is momentum. The need to set up Psychic Terrain again is often a huge momentum sink. At some point, you come in to set up PT and the opponent takes advantage of your Indeedee since it's not a real pokemon. The issue with Moon is it can do that to many more of your mons than just Indeedee. This is true for quite a lot of teams besides Psychic Terrain, but PT is particularly a bad matchup that Moon almost singularly invalidates. Without it, you could potentially be in much better shape against the rest of the boosted metagame with just one or two adjustments.



If you spend both your walls checking Moon, you may have issues checking much else. Even if you stop the sweep, you might have lost your defensive back bone. If you were to run something like Tusk + Garg, you might lose to Tera Flying/Acrobatics/EQ even if you stop the sweep since your defensive backbone will be wrecked. You have to run more specific combos. If you wanted to run a 3 and 3 balance with Glowking, you have to be extremely careful about what supporting physical walls and priority you use or you'll just lose to Moon. BE Valiant or slower isn't proper speed control against it. And if you don't pack priority at all, you lose to Moon because you won't be able to revenge BE speed or if it gets an extra DD off. If you run into Grassy Seed Roaring Moon or a different Tera than you expected, the priority you were banking on to revenge kill it might be out of range from the norm.

Aside from Psychic Terrain, structures with Glowking/Tusk or even Glowking/Zama in some cases may just lose to Tera Flying. Dozo and Corv need to beware of Taunt. Heatran is another thing you need to be careful about using in the event of EQ coverage. That was always true for Heatran, but my point is Moon's existence really requires you to use very specific supporting mons and Tera with most of those combos rather than to diversify.



I appreciate all the suggestions, but I don't run Skarm over Corv in most structures. I don't usually run itemless sets to take Knock Off, either. I'll run a Grassy Seed or a Colbur Berry before I do that. Just my preferences.



Raging Bolt @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Def / 220 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 20 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Body Press
- Thunderclap
- Dragon Pulse

This is the set I run. I have max defense for BP, just enough HP to get to 400, and high special attack to still be threatening. I wanted this to function as sort of a bulky, pseudo mixed attacker. It was also important to me to have it be as threatening as possible after a Calm Mind boost given no BE. Tera Fighting was to boost BP in a pinch and resist Sucker Punch if needed. It's also better than Tera Fairy against Gambit.

Depending on what you are trying to do, you might want to change up the EVs to be faster or more bulky. You can take some out of special attack if you feel you need less. Generally, you don't want to go too low on special attack with Bolt. However, even a Bolt set with no investment in special bulk is better than - special attack to get a defense boost. You don't want to weaken Thunderclap too much.

HP should be 32 so you can minimize Toxic/Burns and Hazard damage. Also take that 4 EVs and put it into speed so you outspeed opposing Raging Bolts that lack speed investment.

 

[Heatranator]

I admire your creativity but I think you're too caught up in damage calcs and theoreticals. Like if we're going at it like this then almost every mon is versatile or unexplored. What matters is if the sets are actually consistent compared to what it normally uses. That's why I brought up Val as an example because it has a million different sets that are all strong. If Moon had common varied sets almost as powerful as tera flying acro guy then I could see your argument. It just doesn't, nothing else other than this set is discussed when people complain about Moon. And almost nothing else other than this set sees usage or results.

Dark/Fight is good coverage but not when you're relying on a 75 BP non stab move. A 3hko versus uninvested Tusk with +1 attack and a proto boost is genuinely terrible. Tusk bodies you back, you literally die to headlong after Tusk breaks sub. You could beat Gambit with this but brick break has some usage on the standard set so it's very possible they'll tera. And you're not threatening much else even if you beat Gambit. I'll also point out this set loses to brave bird Corv anyway which is extremely common and increasingly more so for Ogerpon. You need multiple turns of free set up for this to be remotely threatening. Any sweeper can be scary if that's the case. Tera flying booster acro is amazing because it's so strong immediately. Doesn't need to dd to blow up shit like Tusk and can still kill without tera at +1.
You're not threatening Tusk back much even if you can live 2 ice spinners. Tusk can just bulk up in your face or kill you with 2 headlongs. Moon's not tanky enough to sit there and boost all day. If you want a bulky dd mon Dragonite is way better at this, also a lot scarier to play against than acro guy in my opinion.
Grassy seed is okay but you need Rillaboom for this to work obviously so its pretty telegraphed. Also tells the opponent you're probably not running EQ as coverage. Gterrain in general is only decent right now and Hawlucha is better at this. This is also basically the same set just slightly worse but roost has a niche sometimes and some other tera types can too I guess.
AV is a neat idea but doesn't really work. You're relying completely on a surprise tera water to not get blown up by these guys. Having to burn tera on a mon you're using to tank hits and trade is bad when it has no longevity. Plus they'll still chunk you significantly even with it.
This has the same problems as your other bulky set but now you're relying too much on knock to do damage. Sub boosting 2 attack sets are better on stuff like Boulder because you have stab edgequake with tera ground so you can still hit things.
Snowball is objectively bad even as a gimmick when booster energy exists and is 100x more consistent even if very slightly weaker.
Literally every sweeper can pack a random tera blast to surprise something, this isn't unique to Moon. If you don't face Dondozo you have a useless moveslot and this can still lose to some Dozo sets. Tusk gets wrecked by the normal set anyway so this isn't very useful.
What does fire spin even trap? Match up moth can still shit on you. You said it's a gimmick but this is super unviable. Moon is no Volcanion or Heatran.
HDB one isn't bad, just not good. More opportunities to come in I guess but you're way less threatening when you do. Moon really needs the flying coverage and stab to be scary. Ogerpon can beat this whereas Moon would normally destroy it.
Breaking swipe is super situational and requires a lot of support to work. And unlike Gouging's set you're walled by the metal birds. Blim has used something similar but he can also beat people on high ladder with NU mons. Still it's okay.
Even with the berry, moonblast from Val or Prim is still likely to kill if there's any amount of shit on the floor. Val can still blow you up with CC too without dying to acro unless the berry is consumed. You're nerfing acro significantly if you don't get hit by moonblast or knock. Like you said very gimmicky.
Choice band Moon is good on sun but again super telegraphed. Sun really took a huge nerf after Torkoal lost yawn. I'd also rather have dual stab and a better tera. U-turn is for pivoting and there are better ways of handling Tusk than locking yourself into zen headbutt. CB will never be a bad set because Moon has knock/u-turn with good speed + power but it's less effective outside of sun.
All of these are less effective than the normal set and most are fringe options at best. CB is good but it's not hard to deal with.

Firstly, thanks for not being an ass. No, genuinely, many other people have been rude to me about my sets because they might be a bit 'gimmicky'.

The reason why I'm bringing up these sets is so people CAN use them, my whole point is that moon is more than a tera flying acro machine, and by dipping a bit deeper, way more varied sets would come out of it, which would have there own checks and counters which might be different from other sets.
Tusk also drops its defenses when it headlong rushes, so now its doing 50-63%, definetely enough to threaten a ko. If gambit tera's, that's not really a bad trade, they have taken out your sweeper who tera'd, sure, but they had to tera in return. That's valuable, especially on something as important as gambit. I also didn't realise that brave bird was more common on corv, but hey at least it beats skarm. BB is used 74% of the time on high ladder, so that's my b.
Again, tusk is making itself weaker with headlong rush, so at +1 your still doing 30%. Then with the -1 defense, you are doing 45%. That means tusk is having to stay at 75% or higher just to not get ko'd. Bulk up tusk is used 45% of the time, so it's decently common but not too common. Dragonite I find to be meh, it has to stay in pristine condition to work and it has nill mid game utility due to that.
The grassy seed one of course is for g-terrain, but it doesn't work against hawlucha, it works alongside it. With moon, you severly weaken the opponent until they are at low hp and then hawlucha comes in, sd's and sweeps. You can't run e-quake, that's definetely a bummer, but the defense boost means that you can get off more boosts/attacks which means something like gambit only takes a bit less damage.
Assault vest you don't need to tera against. Specs Kyurem freeze dry only does 81% max to you, while you can potentially 2hit ko with only 1 layer of spikes. Darkrai thinks it can switch into you, gets a np off and then doesn't ko you, while you two hit ko it back. The tera is there if you get to low hp and don't have another option to wall it.
Dark+ground is a pretty good type combo. Only meow and enam resist both hits. Everything else is hit neutrally. Sure, not the best set, but its something that could destroy slower teams that overely on something like garg.
Snowball is a gimmick set, I said that, but it has a cool use. You can proc it whenever you want, switching in doesn't burn it, so that's something it has over it.
The tera blast grass set destroys stuff like ting-lu, tusk and dozo that other sets couldn't. Ting lu for example, is 2hit ko'd by moon, even without a boost. Garg is destroyed, and due to them commonly using tera water, it is destroyed regardless. A decent amount of moon counterplay is bulky water/ground types. Alomomola is 2hit ko'd. I could go on, but these mons are not as threatened by tera flying acro, but are by this set.
If you're scared about waterpon, swap out taunt for u-turn, that gives moon a lot more flexibility and team support. So that would be a change I would make, and tera ground e-quake still is plenty threatening, it can 2hit ko tusk after one boost.
Sure, breaking swipe is a bit situational, but it has its benefits over gouging. It isn't deathly afraid of hazards, so it can hold lefties for more longevity. It's healing move isn't screwed over by glowking, that's a bonus. It can outspeed dragapult at +1, so that's a big benefit. It's not a 1-1 of the gouging set, for example it can't 2hit ko defensive clod, but it has it's own benefits.
The band set I think should be explored outside of sun, and that's where this set comes in. It can threaten tusk without resorting to locking itself into outrage.

Finally, why does it matter if they are a bit less effective than the acro set? That's the point of different sets, they may be a little less effective in some roles, but give benefits in other areas. Let's look at tusk for example. By far its best set is the offensive utility set. It can do anything a team needs, and do it all well. However, you may want a spinner that can threaten a sweep. So you choose the bulk up set. Or maybe you want your tusk to be more defensive because you need hazards off for big power threats? You can go defensive. These sets may be a bit worse compared to exclusively what the acro set does, but they do there own things that make them stand out.

 

[Bold School]

HP should be 32 so you can minimize Toxic/Burns and Hazard damage. Also take that 4 EVs and put it into speed so you outspeed opposing Raging Bolts that lack speed investment.

That's a very good point. I just went for the round number not thinking of the old /16 + 1 trick. This is a good optimization.

 

[Conflux123]

Tusk also drops its defenses when it headlong rushes

Defensive variants, which are the ones that wall moon the most, run EQ.

Do Tusk run EQ anymore tbh? Rillaboom presence makes running eq a huge liability. High Horse power is even better if you don't want any stat drops from headlong. Just a thought

True. I forgot it gets high horsepower.

defensive tusk (HP/Def investment) hasn’t been exactly very good for a while and it doesn’t even beat Moon. They’re still OHKOd by +1 Tera acro, or 2HKOd if Tusk Teras back.

Yeah I know. It's just a fact though. You could still use EQ on offensive tusk or High Horsepower like GummyRowlets said.

 

[Moyashi]

Defensive variants, which are the ones that wall moon the most, run EQ.

defensive tusk (HP/Def investment) hasn’t been exactly very good for a while and it doesn’t even beat Moon. They’re still OHKOd by +1 Tera acro, or 2HKOd if Tusk Teras back.

 

[GummyRowlets]

Defensive variants, which are the ones that wall moon the most, run EQ.

Do Tusk run EQ anymore tbh? Rillaboom presence makes running eq a huge liability. High Horse power is even better if you don't want any stat drops from headlong. Just a thought

 

[Time Waster]

Firstly, thanks for not being an ass. No, genuinely, many other people have been rude to me about my sets because they might be a bit 'gimmicky'.

The reason why I'm bringing up these sets is so people CAN use them, my whole point is that moon is more than a tera flying acro machine, and by dipping a bit deeper, way more varied sets would come out of it, which would have there own checks and counters which might be different from other sets.
Tusk also drops its defenses when it headlong rushes, so now its doing 50-63%, definetely enough to threaten a ko. If gambit tera's, that's not really a bad trade, they have taken out your sweeper who tera'd, sure, but they had to tera in return. That's valuable, especially on something as important as gambit. I also didn't realise that brave bird was more common on corv, but hey at least it beats skarm. BB is used 74% of the time on high ladder, so that's my b.
Again, tusk is making itself weaker with headlong rush, so at +1 your still doing 30%. Then with the -1 defense, you are doing 45%. That means tusk is having to stay at 75% or higher just to not get ko'd. Bulk up tusk is used 45% of the time, so it's decently common but not too common. Dragonite I find to be meh, it has to stay in pristine condition to work and it has nill mid game utility due to that.
The grassy seed one of course is for g-terrain, but it doesn't work against hawlucha, it works alongside it. With moon, you severly weaken the opponent until they are at low hp and then hawlucha comes in, sd's and sweeps. You can't run e-quake, that's definetely a bummer, but the defense boost means that you can get off more boosts/attacks which means something like gambit only takes a bit less damage.
Assault vest you don't need to tera against. Specs Kyurem freeze dry only does 81% max to you, while you can potentially 2hit ko with only 1 layer of spikes. Darkrai thinks it can switch into you, gets a np off and then doesn't ko you, while you two hit ko it back. The tera is there if you get to low hp and don't have another option to wall it.
Dark+ground is a pretty good type combo. Only meow and enam resist both hits. Everything else is hit neutrally. Sure, not the best set, but its something that could destroy slower teams that overely on something like garg.
Snowball is a gimmick set, I said that, but it has a cool use. You can proc it whenever you want, switching in doesn't burn it, so that's something it has over it.
The tera blast grass set destroys stuff like ting-lu, tusk and dozo that other sets couldn't. Ting lu for example, is 2hit ko'd by moon, even without a boost. Garg is destroyed, and due to them commonly using tera water, it is destroyed regardless. A decent amount of moon counterplay is bulky water/ground types. Alomomola is 2hit ko'd. I could go on, but these mons are not as threatened by tera flying acro, but are by this set.
If you're scared about waterpon, swap out taunt for u-turn, that gives moon a lot more flexibility and team support. So that would be a change I would make, and tera ground e-quake still is plenty threatening, it can 2hit ko tusk after one boost.
Sure, breaking swipe is a bit situational, but it has its benefits over gouging. It isn't deathly afraid of hazards, so it can hold lefties for more longevity. It's healing move isn't screwed over by glowking, that's a bonus. It can outspeed dragapult at +1, so that's a big benefit. It's not a 1-1 of the gouging set, for example it can't 2hit ko defensive clod, but it has it's own benefits.
The band set I think should be explored outside of sun, and that's where this set comes in. It can threaten tusk without resorting to locking itself into outrage.

Finally, why does it matter if they are a bit less effective than the acro set? That's the point of different sets, they may be a little less effective in some roles, but give benefits in other areas. Let's look at tusk for example. By far its best set is the offensive utility set. It can do anything a team needs, and do it all well. However, you may want a spinner that can threaten a sweep. So you choose the bulk up set. Or maybe you want your tusk to be more defensive because you need hazards off for big power threats? You can go defensive. These sets may be a bit worse compared to exclusively what the acro set does, but they do there own things that make them stand out.

No problem, I don't like to be mean lol.
That's a fine idea to encourage variety, like I said I think Moon is boring of how one dimensional it is. But my issue was with saying the mon is broken or banworthy because of potential niche sets that aren't used or optimal.

You can use ice spinner or knock to break the subs, I thought that was a given. We're also already assuming your opponent lets you get a sub up and one dd basically for free. This needs too many turns to be threatening because the coverage is so weak, in addition to requiring tera. Even in that situation where you trade, that's still bad because the Gambit's still threatening the rest of your team. I think this one is just generally bad.
Like in the above situation Tusk can just use spinner first and then headlong if they wanted to minimize chip. Half the time you're bulk up bait which is really scary. Again the mons not tanky enough to sit and dd for multiple turns. Like the fact that this physically bulky set can't beat Tusk when it's not even using SE moves is bad.
Dragonite can shit on a lot of offensive teams just by itself. Also has plenty of versatility and with multiscale you're basically guaranteed a +1 at minimum with dd sets. Bodies Moon too which is funny.
My point was that Hawlucha is better at this role. You can stack them both but I'd rather have some more varied threats and grassy terrain is still really meh. This is also still basically the same set, it's ok.
80% is a truck load of damage though and +2 Darkrai can chunk you. I think an AV set is generally decent just because it has a pivoting move and good spdef but I don't think this will ever be common. Its typing isn't the best for this.
You don't need to resist this set to not be threatened by it honestly. The only thing bulky offense and stall would worry about is losing boots or lefties. Tera bug is also not it.
Snowball would be absolutely hilarious to pull off in a game lol.
Any Dozo that's not mono attack tera fight will beat this and you don't need tera grass to beat Tusk. Garg hates getting knocked and gets nuked by boosted EQs. Mola does not like switching into a boosted acro and a lot of them are tera flying anyway. Tera Blast fairy would generally be more consistent and still beat Lu. Grass is way too situational while also not helping defensively other than Waterpon. You can just dd once and hit most of these guys hard.
It's not bad but you're missing out on a lot of coverage and damage. I don't think boots is super valuable because Moon's not rock weak and you're unlikely to get multiple set up opportunities anyway. If I wanted boots I'd probably go with u-turn/knock/EQ/iron head or something like that.
Breaking swipe can be decent but you need to build around it a lot, I've only seen it used a few times on stall. Although any fairy or tera fairy will wall this unlike Gouging's which can at least do damage. Breaking swipe isn't even that great on Gouging and it'd be harder to make it work on Moon.
Locking yourself into zen headbutt is actually worse because you're inviting in Gambit, Darkrai, or other Moon for free. Better to use something else to deal with Tusk. The dragon stab is just a good nuke to click once fairies are gone. It doesn't rely on sun but the speed boost is really helpful. Band will always be good though.

It matters because we were talking about Moon being broken. A lot of these Moon sets are just worse versions of what it already does. CB/AV/BS are unique at least but CB is clearly the best out of those. All of those Tusk sets are distinct, viable and popular. They serve significantly different roles and you have to account for all of them when you're making a team or facing off against Tusk. Most things that can handle tera flying booster acro can deal with any of these without much trouble. Anyway, maybe make a breaking swipe or AV Moon team and if it's really good then we might see something other than acro guy. That'd be cool.

 

[alkazoth]

Just wanna shout out Hydrapple for a moment here, been using this set and it has been super helpful

Physdef Hydrapple

Hydrapple @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 244 HP / 240 Def / 12 SpD / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Fickle Beam
- Grass Knot / Giga Drain
- Recover
Spdef is to live an Iron Valiant's Moonblast and Specs Kyurem's Earth Power after activating Tera Steel, and the speed is to outspeed Ting-Lu.
252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Hydrapple: 348-410 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Tera Steel Hydrapple: 350-412 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hydrapple's an interesting mon, since it's best set is the least used. I've had way more consistent wins with physdef hydrapple than with vest and stalldrapple. It also has a ton of useful traits, namely its Grass/Dragon typing, great physical bulk, and Regenerator. Grass/Dragon is surprisingly good in this metagame, able to check mons like Rillaboom, Waterpon, Dondozo, Garganacl, Iron Boulder, and Lando (note that Band Rilla does about half to Hydrapple with U-turn, however non-Band sets can't do much). It checks a lot of other threats too, like Great Tusk and Heatran, but matchups like these require precise positioning and for Hydrapple to be at or near full health. Fickle Beam's used over other Dragon STAB options like Draco Meteor and Dragon Tail because this set's meant to stay in for prolonged periods of time to wall threats, so Draco damage weakening over time will prove to be detrimental and Dragon Tail doesn't do meaningful damage, and if you get lucky Fickle Beam will hit at base 160 power with no drawbacks. Grass Knot's ran over other Grass STAB options like Giga Drain and Leaf Storm because Leaf Storm weakens over time, same reason as Draco, and Giga Drain doesn't hit heavier threats like Great Tusk, Garganacl, and Ting-Lu as hard as Grass Knot does, however Giga Drain can be ran on this set. Some calcs listed below:

0 SpA Hydrapple Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 152-182 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Hydrapple Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 242-288 (59.9 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Hydrapple Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 314-372 (72.3 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Hydrapple Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 500-590 (115.2 - 135.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Hydrapple Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 270-318 (53.5 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Hydrapple Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 426-504 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Hydrapple Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 116-140 (22.5 - 27.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Hydrapple Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 188-224 (36.5 - 43.5%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Hydrapple Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Boulder: 176-210 (54.8 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Hydrapple Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Boulder: 236-278 (73.5 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Hydrapple Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 114-135 (29.8 - 35.3%) -- 21% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Hydrapple Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 121-144 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 90.4% chance to 3HKO

Continuing with my explanation, Earth Power is the coverage of choice here to hit the Steels who would otherwise wall it like Gholdengo and Heatran. Recover along with Regen are the sources of Hydrapple's longevity, not much else to explain there. Boots is the item of choice to not take repeated hazards damage on switch in, which can greatly dampen Hydrapple's ability to check key metagame threats. Tera Steel is the Tera of choice to turn all of its weaknesses into resistances, and gives it a Toxic immunity. Steel lets it take on mons like Weavile and Meowscarada, who would otherwise break it in half with Triple Axel, and is good in emergency situations. Fairy can also be used to be completely immune to Dragon moves, but while laddering I've found Steel to be more helpful majority of the time. There are a bunch of other viable Tera types it can run (Water, Poison, Grass, etc.) but I won't go too in depth since they're not as good as Steel and more niche imo. Water is just a great defensive typing in general and can be used to resist Fire to better check Heatran and Gouging Fire at the cost of being weak to Grass types it wants to switch in on like Rillaboom and Waterpon. Poison can be used to keep the Toxic immunity and Fairy resistance while also gaining a new resistance to Fighting instead of being weak to it like Steel is, which is helpful in the Zamazenta matchup, but much like Steel, now loses to Ground types like Great Tusk and Lando, and unlike Steel, now loses to strong Ice type attacks from mons like choicelocked Kyurem and Weavile. Grass is a fringe option that gives it an even better Waterpon matchup by removing its weakness to Play Rough, however this rarely does anything outside of that.

A list of some of the mons it reliably checks

Pretty self-explanatory. Dondozo does absolutely nothing to Hydrapple unless running the fringe Avalanche. Dondozo's Body Presses can hurt after a few Curses, but Hydrapple will never let it setup in front of it and nuke it with Grass Knot.


Utterly useless against Hydrapple, can only Flip Turn or hope it burns with Scald, and Hydrapple couldn't care less about a burn compared to a para or Toxic. Requires Mirror Coat in order to punish Hydrapple, which it can't reveal beforehand or else the Hydrapple player will just chip it down little by little so Mirror Coat doesn't kill.


2hkod by Grass Knot unless it Tera Fairys, which leaves it vulnerable to Gholdengo and Glowking, 2 good teammates for Hydrapple. Hydrapple also doesn't care about Salt Cure chip since Recover+Regen will get it back to full.


All it can do is U-turn on it for about 25% damage, which Hydrapple heals off with Regen.


Probably my favorite Samurott check, Hydrapple takes about 25% from Sash Ceaseless Edge and hits back with Knot. Has to be carrying Knock Off in order to cripple it, or else Boots will ignore the Spikes it sets up. Much more offensive variants can pose a threat, but they're nothing Hydrapple can't handle.


Can U-turn out but ultimately does little damage. Ogerpon can only win if it locks Hydrapple into Recover, but Hydrapple is generally gonna want to click Fickle Beam even when at around half.


All it can do is set up hazards and click Ruination, which doesn't faze Hydrapple much at all.


Bulky Cinderace does less than 33% with U-turn and Pyro Ball if it's not running Libero, and Hydrapple retaliates with Earth Power. Offensive Cinderace with Libero can do about 40% with U-turn, but this is still not a good matchup.

A list of mons it somewhat reliably checks, requires smart playing and precise positioning but are ultimately winnable matchups

Band Rillaboom does about half with U-turn, so it will chip more than Regen will heal over the course of a game. That being said, if you can get hazards up and also whittle away at Rilla, that should be fine, plus you deter it from clicking the nuclear warhead known as Wood Hammer in Grassy Terrain. Rocky Helmet users like Clefable and Corviknight pair well for this reason, you can predict the U-turn and chip it.


Iron Boulder takes a ton from Grass Knot and only does about half with Mighty Cleave at +2. Issue is it's a roll in Boulder's favor for Mighty Cleave to 2hko, but an emergency Tera Steel should be able to take care of it (not like Boulder's threatening enough to force you to Tera Steel anyway). +2 Close Combat will not kill Tera Steel from full.


Hydrapple walls both STABs, an impressive feat in this metagame. An issue arises if it's running Play Rough, which can reliably 2hko Hydrapplle at +2. Tera Steel can somewhat patch that up, but Ivy Cudgel will 2hko at +2 as a result.


Hydrapple needs to be at full to beat it. Heatran clicks Magma Storm for about 40% and traps it, and Hydrapple clicks Earth Power, which can 2hko spdef Heatran. Play super aggressively against Heatran, don't try and click Recover because if it knows you have that it will click Taunt and get a free turn of Magma Storm chip.


Mainly talking about bulky Gouging Fire, Breaking Swipe even at +1 will not 2hko, and Fickle Beam will, and Gouging does not want to keep clicking Morning Sun because Hydrapple might get lucky and get double damage with Fickle Beam. Offensive variants lacking Dragon STAB also lose since Fickle Beam does about 70%+Flare Blitz recoil will kill Gouging. That being said, do not try and wall Band in Sun, it will DEMOLISH Hydrapple.
168 Atk Choice Band Tera Fire Gouging Fire Raging Fury vs. 244 HP / 240+ Def Hydrapple in Sun: 346-408 (83.5 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Grass Knot will always nuke Tusk, the issue arises if it Teras and has Ice Spinner. Tera Steel Tusk comfortably takes Grass Knot and gets a free Bulk Up on Hydrapple. Fortunately, Ice Spinner will not ohko at +1, but Hydrapple should not be your only option to beat Tusk, there should be backup mons.


Same deal as Great Tusk except without the setup. Grass Knot 2hkos and it can be packing Ice Spinner, but should be way easier to deal with since Ice Spinner will never ohko.

after Tera Steel
Once you've Terad, it can never break you. Ofc issue is it requires you burning Tera for it.

after Tera Steel
Same deal as Meowscarada, except it can SD into Knock Off instead of pivoting around you.


This one sounds wild as hell, and it is, but this one is EXTREMELY conditional. You have to make sure it is locked into Hydro Steam, preferably by switching into Glowking and scouting it, then switch back to Hydrapple if it's locked into Hydro Steam. They'll be forced to switch and you get a free Fickle Beam, which Sun doesn't have many switch ins for.


Serp's very much a matchup fish against Hydrapple. If you can get lucky you can kill it before repeated Leaf Storms kill you, but Glare rng stacked with repeated Subs make this extremely unreliable. I'd suggest using Glowking instead, but if you have no more checks other than Hydrapple, then I'd recommend using it.


Boots sets get walled by Hydrapple since Close Combat is doing around 30%, but Ironpress sets can be scary, since Body Press can 2hko if it gets enough Iron Defense boosts.


Late edit but wanted to mention Hydrapple can be a great backup check since +2 Kowtow Cleave with 5 allies fainted won't kill, and Earth Power does decent damage back, being able to kill if it's chipped.

Mons Hydrapple cannot break

By far the biggest flaw about Hydrapple in this meta is its awful Glowking mu, which is not pretty seeing Glowking is the glue that holds every balance team together. Even super effective Earth Power is only doing about 30% each time, and Glowking can then dumpster it with either Sludge Bomb or Ice Beam. Tera Steel can completely wall Glowking, however Glowking can keep switching out into a teammate who beats Hydrapple and gain Regen recovery, making most of this strategy moot. Point is, don't rely on Hydrapple to beat Glowking.


None of its moves can hit Corv hard at all, and Corv can just get to +6 and 2hko with Body Press. Same applies to Skarmory.


Immune to 2 of its moves and resists the other, and can ohko it with Moonblast.


Same deal as Glowking, except way less splashable, so you won't need to worry about this as much.


Only on stall, you won't need to worry too much.

Replays showcasing Hydrapple in action
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2095563107
In this replay I used Hydrapple to beat Heatran, Rillaboom, Roaring Moon, and Great Tusk. It did get extremely lucky this match, getting 2 full powered Fickle Beams and a crit on Heatran, but that didn't change the way I play. I went Ting-Lu instead of keeping Hydrapple in on Heatran the first time because Hydrapple took too much chip, and I needed Hydrapple that match to check everything else too, so I figured playing it safe was the correct choice. The emergency Tera Steel on Tusk is ultimately what saved me from losing that match, since it wouldn't have lived Ice Spinner and gotten an Earth Power off.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2088808326
This was a team that hard loses to Hydrapple. Hydrapple was tasked to mainly take on Waterpon and Gouging Fire this match, but the opp ended up forfeiting early because without Gholdengo they could not do anything to it. Also I know Waterpon balance teams without hazard removal is not very good, so maybe this isn't the best example, but I wanted to show it anyway.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2086339466
In this replay Hydrapple bodies all of Iron Valiant, Kingambit, Waterpon, and Iron Boulder. At the start I was in an abysmal position since Taunt Roaring Moon really messes my team up and Lando died. I also forgot Spirit Break was a physical move, so I sacked Glowking for no reason (not like I needed it for the battle anyway, tho losing Zama hurt). I knew the battle was still winnable since they only had physical attackers on their team and walling them is Hydrapple's forte. Because Spirit Break's physical, Hydrapple was able to soak up that hit and beat Val. The spat drop really hurts, as seen right after against Boulder where Grass Knot did only half. However, I wasn't worried since Boulder's weak as hell. Kingambit comes in as the final mon, the one mon who could cause me to lose this match. I predict the SD and switch in Pult to Wisp it so Kowtow does nothing to Hydrapple, and also to get rid of the spat drop. They already burned Tera on Moon so I didn't need to worry about Tera Dark nuking me into oblivion all of a sudden. Hydrapple gets extremely lucky with a crit on Earth Power, causing the King to fall. Won the battle due to good luck, but everything Hydrapple did before Kingambit came out still proves my point.

Overall, I feel people are underrating Hydrapple because they're only looking at the stall and vest sets. The stall set's meh and the vest set is ok, but I feel physdef Hydrapple is the best set. Unlike stalldrapple, it has uses outside of stall on balance teams to blanket check various physical threats, making it more splashable, and can actually beat Steel types thanks to Earth Power. Hydrapple's a mon I felt had potential early on, but after running this set I feel like I fully understand it now. There are other sets beyond stall, vest, and physdef, and I haven't tried them all, but I'm very impressed by how well this set in particular has performed.

EDIT: Added Kingambit

 

[Fropop]

Cool set, makes me want to try it.
Did you consider running body press ?
Seems a cool move on it but seems hard to replace another...

 

[Kallum]

I've been using this team https://pokepast.es/2d0ecb702a09f103 for a while now and it feels really solid except the fact that I often feel like Kyurem just doesn't contribute much and often the rest of the team (Kingambit) have to pick up the slack. Is there somthing I should change about Kyurem or replace him entirely?

Or do I just have skill issue?

 

[Dhrabb]

Just wanna shout out Hydrapple for a moment here, been using this set and it has been super helpful

Physdef Hydrapple
Hydrapple @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 244 HP / 240 Def / 12 SpD / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Fickle Beam
- Grass Knot / Giga Drain
- Recover
Spdef is to live an Iron Valiant's Moonblast and Specs Kyurem's Earth Power after activating Tera Steel, and the speed is to outspeed Ting-Lu.
252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Hydrapple: 348-410 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Tera Steel Hydrapple: 350-412 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hydrapple's an interesting mon, since it's best set is the least used. I've had way more consistent wins with physdef hydrapple than with vest and stalldrapple. It also has a ton of useful traits, namely its Grass/Dragon typing, great physical bulk, and Regenerator. Grass/Dragon is surprisingly good in this metagame, able to check mons like Rillaboom, Waterpon, Dondozo, Garganacl, Iron Boulder, and Lando (note that Band Rilla does about half to Hydrapple with U-turn, however non-Band sets can't do much). It checks a lot of other threats too, like Great Tusk and Heatran, but matchups like these require precise positioning and for Hydrapple to be at or near full health. Fickle Beam's used over other Dragon STAB options like Draco Meteor and Dragon Tail because this set's meant to stay in for prolonged periods of time to wall threats, so Draco damage weakening over time will prove to be detrimental and Dragon Tail doesn't do meaningful damage, and if you get lucky Fickle Beam will hit at base 160 power with no drawbacks. Grass Knot's ran over other Grass STAB options like Giga Drain and Leaf Storm because Leaf Storm weakens over time, same reason as Draco, and Giga Drain doesn't hit heavier threats like Great Tusk, Garganacl, and Ting-Lu as hard as Grass Knot does, however Giga Drain can be ran on this set. Some calcs listed below:

0 SpA Hydrapple Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 152-182 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Hydrapple Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 242-288 (59.9 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Hydrapple Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 314-372 (72.3 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Hydrapple Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 500-590 (115.2 - 135.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Hydrapple Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 270-318 (53.5 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Hydrapple Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 426-504 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Hydrapple Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 116-140 (22.5 - 27.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Hydrapple Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 188-224 (36.5 - 43.5%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Hydrapple Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Boulder: 176-210 (54.8 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Hydrapple Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Boulder: 236-278 (73.5 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Hydrapple Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 114-135 (29.8 - 35.3%) -- 21% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Hydrapple Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 121-144 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 90.4% chance to 3HKO

Continuing with my explanation, Earth Power is the coverage of choice here to hit the Steels who would otherwise wall it like Gholdengo and Heatran. Recover along with Regen are the sources of Hydrapple's longevity, not much else to explain there. Boots is the item of choice to not take repeated hazards damage on switch in, which can greatly dampen Hydrapple's ability to check key metagame threats. Tera Steel is the Tera of choice to turn all of its weaknesses into resistances, and gives it a Toxic immunity. Steel lets it take on mons like Weavile and Meowscarada, who would otherwise break it in half with Triple Axel, and is good in emergency situations. Fairy can also be used to be completely immune to Dragon moves, but while laddering I've found Steel to be more helpful majority of the time. There are a bunch of other viable Tera types it can run (Water, Poison, Grass, etc.) but I won't go too in depth since they're not as good as Steel and more niche imo. Water is just a great defensive typing in general and can be used to resist Fire to better check Heatran and Gouging Fire at the cost of being weak to Grass types it wants to switch in on like Rillaboom and Waterpon. Poison can be used to keep the Toxic immunity and Fairy resistance while also gaining a new resistance to Fighting instead of being weak to it like Steel is, which is helpful in the Zamazenta matchup, but much like Steel, now loses to Ground types like Great Tusk and Lando, and unlike Steel, now loses to strong Ice type attacks from mons like choicelocked Kyurem and Weavile. Grass is a fringe option that gives it an even better Waterpon matchup by removing its weakness to Play Rough, however this rarely does anything outside of that.

A list of some of the mons it reliably checks

Pretty self-explanatory. Dondozo does absolutely nothing to Hydrapple unless running the fringe Avalanche. Dondozo's Body Presses can hurt after a few Curses, but Hydrapple will never let it setup in front of it and nuke it with Grass Knot.


Utterly useless against Hydrapple, can only Flip Turn or hope it burns with Scald, and Hydrapple couldn't care less about a burn compared to a para or Toxic. Requires Mirror Coat in order to punish Hydrapple, which it can't reveal beforehand or else the Hydrapple player will just chip it down little by little so Mirror Coat doesn't kill.


2hkod by Grass Knot unless it Tera Fairys, which leaves it vulnerable to Gholdengo and Glowking, 2 good teammates for Hydrapple. Hydrapple also doesn't care about Salt Cure chip since Recover+Regen will get it back to full.


All it can do is U-turn on it for about 25% damage, which Hydrapple heals off with Regen.


Probably my favorite Samurott check, Hydrapple takes about 25% from Sash Ceaseless Edge and hits back with Knot. Has to be carrying Knock Off in order to cripple it, or else Boots will ignore the Spiikes it sets up. Much more offensive variants can pose a threat, but they're nothing Hydrapple can't handle.


Can U-turn out but ultimately does little damage. Ogerpon can only win if it locks Hydrapple into Recover, but Hydrapple is generally gonna want to click Fickle Beam even when at around half.


All it can do is set up hazards and click Ruination, which doesn't faze Hydrapple much at all.


Bulky Cinderace does less than 33% with U-turn and Pyro Ball if it's not running Libero, and Hydrapple retaliates with Earth Power. Offensive Cinderace with Libero can do about 40% with U-turn, but this is still not a good matchup.

A list of mons it somewhat reliably checks, requires smart playing and precise positioning but are ultimately winnable matchups

Band Rillaboom does about half with U-turn, so it will chip more than Regen will heal over the course of a game. That being said, if you can get hazards up and also whittle away at Rilla, that should be fine, plus you deter it from clicking the nuclear warhead known as Wood Hammer in Grassy Terrain. Rocky Helmet users like Clefable and Corviknight pair well for this reason, you can predict the U-turn and chip it.


Iron Boulder takes a ton from Grass Knot and only does about half with Mighty Cleave at +2. Issue is it's a roll in Boulder's favor for Mighty Cleave to 2hko, but an emergency Tera Steel should be able to take care of it (not like Boulder's threatening enough to force you to Tera Steel anyway). +2 Close Combat will not kill Tera Steel from full.


Hydrapple walls both STABs, an impressive feat in this metagame. An issue arises if it's running Play Rough, which can reliably 2hko Hydrapplle at +2. Tera Steel can somewhat patch that up, but Ivy Cudgel will 2hko at +2 as a result.


Hydrapple needs to be at full to beat it. Heatran clicks Magma Storm for about 40% and traps it, and Hydrapple clicks Earth Power, which can 2hko spdef Heatran. Play super aggressively against Heatran, don't try and click Recover because if it knows you have that it will click Taunt and get a free turn of Magma Storm chip.


Mainly talking about bulky Gouging Fire, Breaking Swipe even at +1 will not 2hko, and Fickle Beam will, and Gouging does not want to keep clicking Morning Sun because Hydrapple might get lucky and get double damage with Fickle Beam. Offensive variants lacking Dragon STAB also lose since Fickle Beam does about 70%+Flare Blitz recoil will kill Gouging. That being said, do not try and wall Band in Sun, it will DEMOLISH Hydrapple.
168 Atk Choice Band Tera Fire Gouging Fire Raging Fury vs. 244 HP / 240+ Def Hydrapple in Sun: 346-408 (83.5 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Grass Knot will always nuke Tusk, the issue arises if it Teras and has Ice Spinner. Tera Steel Tusk comfortably takes Grass Knot and gets a free Bulk Up on Hydrapple. Fortunately, Ice Spinner will not ohko at +1, but Hydrapple should not be your only option to beat Tusk, there should be backup mons.


Same deal as Great Tusk except without the setup. Grass Knot 2hkos and it can be packing Ice Spinner, but should be way easier to deal with since Ice Spinner will never ohko.

after Tera Steel
Once you've Terad, it can never break you. Ofc issue is it requires you burning Tera for it.

after Tera Steel
Same deal as Meowscarada, except it can SD into Knock Off instead of pivoting around you.


This one sounds wild as hell, and it is, but this one is EXTREMELY conditional. You have to make sure it is locked into Hydro Steam, preferably by switching into Glowking and scouting it, then switch back to Hydrapple if it's locked into Hydro Steam. They'll be forced to switch and you get a free Fickle Beam, which Sun doesn't have many switch ins for.


Serp's very much a matchup fish against Hydrapple. If you can get lucky you can kill it before repeated Leaf Storms kill you, but Glare rng stacked with repeated Subs make this extremely unreliable. I'd suggest using Glowking instead, but if you have no more checks other than Hydrapple, then I'd recommend using it.


Boots sets get walled by Hydrapple since Close Combat is doing around 30%, but Ironpress sets can be scary, since Body Press can 2hko if it gets enough Iron Defense boosts.

Mons Hydrapple cannot break

By far the biggest flaw about Hydrapple in this meta is its awful Glowking mu, which is not pretty seeing Glowking is the glue that holds every balance team together. Even super effective Earth Power is only doing about 30% each time, and Glowking can then dumpster it with either Sludge Bomb or Ice Beam. Tera Steel can completely wall Glowking, however Glowking can keep switching out into a teammate who beats Hydrapple and gain Regen recovery, making most of this strategy moot. Point is, don't rely on Hydrapple to beat Glowking.


None of its moves can hit Corv hard at all, and Corv can just get to +6 and 2hko with Body Press. Same applies to Skarmory.


Immune to 2 of its moves and resists the other, and can ohko it with Moonblast.


Same deal as Glowking, except way less splashable, so you won't need to worry about this as much.


Only on stall, you won't need to worry too much.

Replays showcasing Hydrapple in action
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2095563107
In this replay I used Hydrapple to beat Heatran, Rillaboom, Roaring Moon, and Great Tusk. It did get extremely lucky this match, getting 2 full powered Fickle Beams and a crit on Heatran, but that didn't change the way I play. I went Ting-Lu instead of keeping Hydrapple in on Heatran the first time because Hydrapple took too much chip, and I needed Hydrapple that match to check everything else too, so I figured playing it safe was the correct choice. The emergency Tera Steel on Tusk is ultimately what saved me from losing that match, since it wouldn't have lived Ice Spinner and gotten an Earth Power off.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2088808326
This was a team that hard loses to Hydrapple. Hydrapple was tasked to mainly take on Waterpon and Gouging Fire this match, but the opp ended up forfeiting early because without Gholdengo they could not do anything to it. Also I know Waterpon balance teams without hazard removal is not very good, so maybe this isn't the best example, but I wanted to show it anyway.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2086339466
In this replay Hydrapple bodies all of Iron Valiant, Kingambit, Waterpon, and Iron Boulder. At the start I was in an abysmal position since Taunt Roaring Moon really messes my team up and Lando died. I also forgot Spirit Break was a physical move, so I sacked Glowking for no reason (not like I needed it for the battle anyway, tho losing Zama hurt). I knew the battle was still winnable since they only had physical attackers on their team and walling them is Hydrapple's forte. Because Spirit Break's physical, Hydrapple was able to soak up that hit and beat Val. The spat drop really hurts, as seen right after against Boulder where Grass Knot did only half. However, I wasn't worried since Boulder's weak as hell. Kingambit comes in as the final mon, the one mon who could cause me to lose this match. I predict the SD and switch in Pult to Wisp it so Kowtow does nothing to Hydrapple, and also to get rid of the spat drop. They already burned Tera on Moon so I didn't need to worry about Tera Dark nuking me into oblivion all of a sudden. Hydrapple gets extremely lucky with a crit on Earth Power, causing the King to fall. Won the battle due to good luck, but everything Hydrapple did before Kingambit came out still proves my point.

Overall, I feel people are underrating Hydrapple because they're only looking at the stall and vest sets. The stall set's meh and the vest set is ok, but I feel physdef Hydrapple is the best set. Unlike stalldrapple, it has uses outside of stall on balance teams to blanket check various physical threats, making it more splashable, and can actually beat Steel types thanks to Earth Power. Hydrapple's a mon I felt had potential early on, but after running this set I feel like I fully understand it now. There are other sets beyond stall, vest, and physdef, and I haven't tried them all, but I'm very impressed by how well this set in particular has performed.

Really cool post. Hydrapple is one my favourite mons from gen 9 so it's cool to see it functioning so well, definitely gonna try this out.

I've been using this team https://pokepast.es/2d0ecb702a09f103 for a while now and it feels really solid except the fact that I often feel like Kyurem just doesn't contribute much and often the rest of the team (Kingambit) have to pick up the slack. Is there somthing I should change about Kyurem or replace him entirely?

Or do I just have skill issue?

Well firstly you're running Jolly Special Lando, probably wanna change that to Timid. Anyway, I'm pretty sure I've seen this 6 before on the ladder so it should be fine as a whole, I'd say run mixed Kyurem with scale shot to get a speed boost on random stuff, Draco on non specs I find ont that worth clicking most of the time.

 

[Copland]

Haven't had much time to play mons, but I've been having fun lately building teams that I can only describe as fat and nasty. The only problem with these fat nasties is that they get absolutely run over by Ogerpon-Wellspring. Dealing with Ogerpon typically involves playing at a fast tempo, and fat structures can't really exert that kind of offensive pressure.

Of course, this wouldn't be such a problem if there were good defensive Grass types. Since the gen began, really, I've noticed the need for good defensive Grasses--there's just so few mons in the builder that can fill the set of resistances a Grass-type can provide. The one decent one (Amoonguss) got heavily neutered by the Sleep ban, but even with Sleep, the defensive Grasses we have are super passive, and the mons who can abuse them can do so without any repercussions (Gholdengo, Slowking-G, Corv, Skarm, etc.).

With some theorymonning and a brief laddering session, I think I may have found the solution--Serperior.

Utility Serp

Serperior @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Water / Poison / Fairy / Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Knock Off
- Glare
- Synthesis

Offensive Serperior struggles because it can't break through Grass resists without committing Tera, and the Tera types it likes to use offensively don't help it as much as much defensively. Utility Serp eschews the ability to sweep outright for the ability to severely cripple its switch-ins. It sort of operates like Knock Off Clefable, where it scores Knocks on things that really don't want to lose their item--notably Slowking-Galar. Glare, a hold over from its offensive sets, functions in much the same way, presenting opportunities to slow down offensive threats or prevent defensive mons from making progress. It also means that you have two ways to cripple switch-ins to Serp, and if you land both, the target is as good as dead, even if Serp itself is not breaking through.

Even with no Special Attack investment, Contrary Leaf Storm means that your opponent can't just ignore it. They have to go into something like Skarmory, or Glowking, meaning your high priority Knock Offs are essentially forced. Leaf Storm also allows you to beat Ogerpon-W, the Pokemon this set was designed to beat. With Max HP, you live +2 Power Whip, and with Max Speed, you outrun it and are able to 2-Shot it.

Calcs v. Woger

4 SpA Contrary Serperior Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 344-406 (114.2 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 231-273 (65.2 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The only move that OHKOs isn't really used anymore.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 309-364 (87.2 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

U-Turn Woger 2HKOs, which is why I like Rocky Helmet (you also punish Lando-T this way). But any turn Oger spends U-Turning is a turn Oger spends not killing your team, which is fine.

Here are some replays of Serp scoring cruicial Knock Offs and checking Woger (~1700s).

Vs. Opposing Fat Balance, Serp's Knock Offs win the game.
Vs. Offense, Serp repeatedly prevents Woger from making progress.
Vs. Balance, again, Serp scores critical Knock Offs.

 

[East Coast Elite]

This meta seriously sucks. I really wish I could insta ban heavy duty boots, h-samurott and gholdengo to have a metagame where hazards actually matters but are not overwhelming instead of facing teams with HDB on every mon and Gliscor/Clefable/Landorus.

I see some people saying this is the most diverse metagame since the beginning of the gen when in my opinion it's the most restrictive one. You face countless teams you just can't interact with because hazards have 0 impact on them and you can't even use Hatterene because f***ing Ceaseless Edge go through it anyway. You either run HDB no matter the playstyle or you are f***ed there is no in between. I also saw that Ribombee rose in the VR despite the fact that the only mons Sticky Web is good against are the booster energy mon, Deoxys-s and Ogerpon since everything else will just be HDB or obsenely fast scarfers to begin with (Darkrai, Meow etc...).

Maybe I'm the only one feeling like that but I seriously miss Gen 6/7 where you could actually interact with your opponent and good positionning with hazards actually mattered but it was still reasonnably easy and widespread to get rid of them.

I don’t necessarily think your fucked without HBD. But the meta feels very rock-paper-scissors. Technically a lot of stuff is viable, but it’s also a lot of auto-losing because teams heave more holes than ever before. I don’t think there’s a fix to this though and this is the meta for at least the few months as Finch recently says there’s no survey in the horizon.

 

[arnimacarni]

the one day i decide to build full blown out stall on my first game:

you cant script this shit lol

yea he cooked me

 

[peepeepoopoo722]

This new fortnite season sucks so been playing more mons lately. It's still pretty fun but its honestly hard to check everything and I've mostly accepted that there will games I just llikely lose on matchup. But running offense and have gambit, h-sam, bolt and cb nite all with priority helps. And having fast proto crown and zama. I can play around a lot of stuff.

I posted a while ago about my focus energy h Sam with tera elec. I dropped tera elec but keep using focus energy with scope lens. Goes hard. I'm not sure what the odds of a crit without focus energy are on scope lens aqua cutter or ceaseless but they seem to hit a lot. Even without tera elec I can take down corvinight if they think they are going to force me out and go for a defog.

Thats all I have to share.

pp poopoo 72's rating: 1626 → 1645

 

[Magcargo]

Really cool post. Hydrapple is one my favourite mons from gen 9 so it's cool to see it functioning so well, definitely gonna try this out.

Well firstly you're running Jolly Special Lando, probably wanna change that to Timid. Anyway, I'm pretty sure I've seen this 6 before on the ladder so it should be fine as a whole, I'd say run mixed Kyurem with scale shot to get a speed boost on random stuff, Draco on non specs I find ont that worth clicking most of the time.

Another option I like is Dragon Tail, since you can force chip onto some common switch-ins like Blissey & force other mons like Garg into awkward positions. That being said, Weavile might just be a better mon on that team to act as a secondary Knock absorber with pickpocket & force progress with its own Knock.

Speaking of Garg, maybe this mon is becoming a problem. I'm running crap like Covert Cloak Skarm not to get run over by its shenanigans. This mon exploits the common pivot pult sets running around harder than any other mon. Still, it is one of my most reliable allies, and I really enjoy using the Garg-Clod-Corv core lately so I'd never want to ban it, but its still tricky to deal with.

Tinkaton is a bad mon, but Pickpocket is pretty busted in this metagame where Knock Off can feel like a OHKO move. On bootspam teams, it can act as a nice Knock Absorber that covers other utilities like checking Darkrai and Kyurem. Even if you get a crappy item like Scarf, I find that its actually not that big of a deal since you still switch into other Knock off mons reliably. That being said, if the opponent has a Corv or Tusk, prepare for the worst experience ever.

IMO Skarm is mediocre, but being a Spiker that mostly destroys Tusk is pretty nice. I'm noticing its a bit hard to get the free turns you need though to setup Spikes. This mon lacks a lot of the perks that Corv has, like Pressure (useful against stall & low PP moves + in Body Press mirrors), decent special bulk to better answer threats like Serp / Deo-S, Defog, U-turn, etc. while mostly sharing cons other cons like being a bit exploitable, having some 4MSS, etc. Spikes and a stronger Body Press are big pros though.

Volcanion is pretty cool. I've mostly been running it since Primarina and Almomola have been massive pains as of late and it does decently well in those match-ups, while having similar trapping utility to Heatran and being really hard to switch into. Water-types in general are tough to deal with in the tier, so Volcanion's Steam Eruption winds up having very few switch-ins, esp since it beats all the bulky Waters. My main issue with this mon is its speed since its just terrible. Being outsped by Ghold, Gliscor, and Lando-T just isn't fun to deal with.

 

[Bold School]

I've been using this team https://pokepast.es/2d0ecb702a09f103 for a while now and it feels really solid except the fact that I often feel like Kyurem just doesn't contribute much and often the rest of the team (Kingambit) have to pick up the slack. Is there somthing I should change about Kyurem or replace him entirely?

Or do I just have skill issue?

This structure looks like it just gets 6'0'd by Weavile with Low Kick. Half the team is weak to Ice, with Gambit being the only Ice or Dark resist outside of Tera. I don't know how much trouble you have for this in practice, but it does look a bit concerning to me at a glance.

You might want to replace one of the grounds with a different flying pivot. Moltres or Corv would be what I personally would try. But it really depends on what you think your team needs. I would just try to make it so both your flying types had U-turn so you could keep momentum easier.

For Kyurem in particular, you may want to run a more offensive item or focus on being able to pivot into it safely with more of the team to take advantage of HBD. I also don't think your Gambit needs HBD since it resists rocks and is immune to T-spikes. With a steel type, a grounded poison, and two flying types not weak to rocks, your team structure is actually quite resistant to hazards. So I don't think need you quite as many HBD as you have. And I would only later add another HBD if you decide to replace one of Gliscor or Lando with something like Moltres.

 

[Heatranator]

Speaking of Garg, maybe this mon is becoming a problem. I'm running crap like Covert Cloak Skarm not to get run over by its shenanigans. This mon exploits the common pivot pult sets running around harder than any other mon. Still, it is one of my most reliable allies, and I really enjoy using the Garg-Clod-Corv core lately so I'd never want to ban it, but its still tricky to deal with.

While I have been having more troubles with Garg, IMO it's overrated as hell. Great mon, but it has exploitable weaknesses. It's base typing sucks, and many common mons such as Lando-T, Zama and even corv can hit it super effectivily. That forces it to tera, and even then strong special attacks can beat it. It can invest on that side, but then it is much frailer on the physical side without a boost, which due to the commonality of super effective attacks against it, is difficult to find.
Another issue with it is it's vulnerability to hazards and knock off. It needs lefties as otherwise it is much easier to exploit without the passive healing, which means it actually fears knock off a lot more than it should.
If you let Garg play it's game, it's terrifying, but if you don't and just hit it hard, then it's not that difficult to deal with.

 

[Moyashi]

While I have been having more troubles with Garg, IMO it's overrated as hell. Great mon, but it has exploitable weaknesses. It's base typing sucks, and many common mons such as Lando-T, Zama and even corv can hit it super effectivily. That forces it to tera, and even then strong special attacks can beat it. It can invest on that side, but then it is much frailer on the physical side without a boost, which due to the commonality of super effective attacks against it, is difficult to find.
Another issue with it is it's vulnerability to hazards and knock off. It needs lefties as otherwise it is much easier to exploit without the passive healing, which means it actually fears knock off a lot more than it should.
If you let Garg play it's game, it's terrifying, but if you don't and just hit it hard, then it's not that difficult to deal with.

It's not at a point of being concerningly problematic, but this is greatly underselling how annoying it can be. For one, its base typing while not that great still has some highly useful defensive traits which allow it to function in some match ups without having to tera right away, or at all. Checking flyers, Dragapult, some Volcarona, some Iron Moth, Gouging Fire, Skeledirge, is all really helpful for teams and the use of tera simply extends the reach of that defensive utility. Stuff like Lando-T and Zama hate switching into it directly (and the former can be pressured by protect Garg variants). Corv barely scratches even spdef Garg and takes huge damage from Salt Cure. Certain strong special attackers can overwhelm it longterm, but it's not as simple as "click move and win". Also it's not "much frailer on the physical side without a boost" if spdef. It's still remarkably fat there, and also it;s not really difficult to get boosts up on it when played decently (and when placed on a good team).

Hazards are its biggest weakness, which is why it's not as dominant as it was early gen, but underestimating it will end up with it rolling your team pretty easily. It's the kind of mon you need to prep for whenever it's a prominent threat.

Volcanion is pretty cool. I've mostly been running it since Primarina and Almomola have been massive pains as of late and it does decently well in those match-ups, while having similar trapping utility to Heatran and being really hard to switch into. Water-types in general are tough to deal with in the tier, so Volcanion's Steam Eruption winds up having very few switch-ins, esp since it beats all the bulky Waters. My main issue with this mon is its speed since its just terrible. Being outsped by Ghold, Gliscor, and Lando-T just isn't fun to deal with.

Trapping Volcanion sets are really neat imo. They're great at luring and removing fat special walls and with it now having taunt, it can deny even Glowking from escaping (though you'll probably trade most of its health to remove it).

 

[Heatranator]

It's not at a point of being concerningly problematic, but this is greatly underselling how annoying it can be. For one, its base typing while not that great still has some highly useful defensive traits which allow it to function in some match ups without having to tera right away, or at all. Checking flyers, Dragapult, some Volcarona, some Iron Moth, Gouging Fire, Skeledirge, is all really helpful for teams and the use of tera simply extends the reach of that defensive utility. Stuff like Lando-T and Zama hate switching into it directly (and the former can be pressured by protect Garg variants). Corv barely scratches even spdef Garg and takes huge damage from Salt Cure. Certain strong special attackers can overwhelm it longterm, but it's not as simple as "click move and win". Also it's not "much frailer on the physical side without a boost" if spdef. It's still remarkably fat there, and also it;s not really difficult to get boosts up on it when played decently (and when placed on a good team).

Hazards are its biggest weakness, which is why it's not as dominant as it was early gen, but underestimating it will end up with it rolling your team pretty easily. It's the kind of mon you need to prep for whenever it's a prominent threat.



Trapping Volcanion sets are really neat imo. They're great at luring and removing fat special walls and with it now having taunt, it can deny even Glowking from escaping (though you'll probably trade most of its health to remove it).

While it is great, and it does check a lot of things, it also has a lot of things that check itself. I find that if you don't be scared around salt cure damage, it's a lot easier to pressure. Do Zama or Lando-T like switching into it? No, but I find that if you are aggressive against it, it can't really do that much. For Zama, I just Id when it salt cures and then start to bp, forcing it to tera. For Lando-T, I just immediately e-quake or earth power and heavily damage it, making it unable to walk other things. While something like corv may take 25% from salt cure, it isn't as much of a problem. Roost offsets the damage and I may have to switch out once if I get extremely low.
252 Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 252 HP / 52 Def Garganacl: 116-138 (28.7 - 34.1%) -- 98.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even against stall teams, which I play a decent amount, who are Garg's best matchup, can play around it, even without clefable. I typically switch in gliscor, knock off the item, and then switch to dondozo. It can take two turns of salt cure and bp, and rest up. And if it gets a waterfall or bp on sleep talk turns a few times, then I win.
Garg prays on teams that try to passively play around it, that's what I've found. Even a team that looks like it gets destroyed by Garg can beat it if they are aggressive. You CANNOT be passive around Garg, that's when it becomes indestructible. Is it annoying? Yes, but it's easier to play around then it can seem. You have to prep for it, but that's like any mon. I prep for meow, despite the fact it's underwhelming (though not bad). I keep in mind a check to rain teams.

 

[alkazoth]

Cool set, makes me want to try it.
Did you consider running body press ?
Seems a cool move on it but seems hard to replace another...

Body Press seems cool, as it improves your Gambit matchup, however there are a number of negatives that made me not wanna run it:

• You become complete setup fodder for Gholdengo, whereas Earth Power 2hkos offensive variants.
• Tera Poison and Steel BU Tusk are now able to freely setup on you, while Earth Power is doing at least 60%.
• You now no longer 2hko spdef Heatran, which doesn't seem too important, but if you don't have viable counterplay or your actual ways of dealing with it are fainted, the matchup will matter.

I think you could make it work, but these negatives in particular, especially the first one, deterred me from ever trying it out. Hydrapple fits best on balance teams, and balance does not want to be giving Gholdengo free switch ins and setup opportunities (at least Glowking can click Chilly and gain momentum off the predicted Gholdy switch in).

 

[Moyashi]

While it is great, and it does check a lot of things, it also has a lot of things that check itself. I find that if you don't be scared around salt cure damage, it's a lot easier to pressure. Do Zama or Lando-T like switching into it? No, but I find that if you are aggressive against it, it can't really do that much. For Zama, I just Id when it salt cures and then start to bp, forcing it to tera. For Lando-T, I just immediately e-quake or earth power and heavily damage it, making it unable to walk other things. While something like corv may take 25% from salt cure, it isn't as much of a problem. Roost offsets the damage and I may have to switch out once if I get extremely low.
252 Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 252 HP / 52 Def Garganacl: 116-138 (28.7 - 34.1%) -- 98.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even against stall teams, which I play a decent amount, who are Garg's best matchup, can play around it, even without clefable. I typically switch in gliscor, knock off the item, and then switch to dondozo. It can take two turns of salt cure and bp, and rest up. And if it gets a waterfall or bp on sleep talk turns a few times, then I win.
Garg prays on teams that try to passively play around it, that's what I've found. Even a team that looks like it gets destroyed by Garg can beat it if they are aggressive. You CANNOT be passive around Garg, that's when it becomes indestructible. Is it annoying? Yes, but it's easier to play around then it can seem. You have to prep for it, but that's like any mon. I prep for meow, despite the fact it's underwhelming (though not bad). I keep in mind a check to rain teams.

? No one is leaving their Garg in to get EQd. And Zama, most Garg teams have counterplay for it so it's not really a huge deal. Garg doesn't have to tera (and usually won't) vs it. Corv also roosting is just free set up which is not what you want vs Garg. If you switch out when you're extremely low, your Corv isn't checking what it should be anymore and Garg did its job.

Garg is good against stall if running Block sets, which they don't have too many outs vs without Tera Ghost.

Also just for the record Garg is pretty good into faster teams (not HO but general offense) due to the fast chip it accumalates as well as its good longevity. Not immortal but good vs them.

Again, not trying to call it broken cause it ain't and it has flaws, but it certainly isn't overrated. It's been on the up and up for a reason lately. It's strong, and with it being very hard to fit Cloak these days, it's difficult to deny progress against Garg teams without Clef or double regen cores.

 

[Heatranator]

? No one is leaving their Garg in to get EQd. And Zama, most Garg teams have counterplay for it so it's not really a huge deal. Garg doesn't have to tera (and usually won't) vs it. Corv also roosting is just free set up which is not what you want vs Garg. If you switch out when you're extremely low, your Corv isn't checking what it should be anymore and Garg did its job.

Garg is good against stall if running Block sets, which they don't have too many outs vs without Tera Ghost.

Also just for the record Garg is pretty good into faster teams (not HO but general offense) due to the fast chip it accumalates as well as its good longevity. Not immortal but good vs them.

Again, not trying to call it broken cause it ain't and it has flaws, but it certainly isn't overrated. It's been on the up and up for a reason lately. It's strong, and with it being very hard to fit Cloak these days, it's difficult to deny progress against Garg teams without Clef or double regen cores.

Okay, so then they get a little bit of chip and you can U-turn out. That's not the worst trade in the world. If they are protect, free opportunity to get stealth rocks. And saying that Garg teams have counterplay is fair, but you still are letting in Zama. Any mon can technically be great if supported by teammates. Corv can still get of a bp before it has to roost, and it will likely always be able to do that, forcing Garg to be more offensive.
Running block on garg is IMO, a matchup fish. You are relying on facing one playstyle in order to be effective. Maybe in a top level game if you can scout your opponent, that's fine, but even then it's risky. And how is it beating dozo? It has salt cure, block, recover in it's slots, so it has to choose between Id or bp, which isn't the best.
Garg isn't bad against offensive teams, but they pressure it with too much damage before it can get going. It can maybe take one or two hits, get a recover off and be forced out.
I do believe it's overrated, it's powerful, but not dominating. I believe there is a reason why it was UUBL (even though it is OU material) because it can be difficult to execute. The mentality of how you deal with Garg is important. If you try to passively switch between defensive mons, as so many people I find on ladder try to do, then yes it will be a extremely strong mon, top 10 even. But if you play aggressively against it, ignoring the damage it deals and just hitting it, then it can be easy enough to deal with. It's kinda like meloetta (which I have been using to decent success). Any team that tries to switch around it will get destroyed due to it threatening switches with a powerful effect (meloetta's case being sleep chance). Garg does counter a lot of top mons, and if you can build a team to deal with its weaknesses, it can be great. But those weaknesses are exploitable and make it a A- rank mon, kinda on the same level as clefable or dondozo.

 

[Moyashi]

Okay, so then they get a little bit of chip and you can U-turn out. That's not the worst trade in the world. If they are protect, free opportunity to get stealth rocks. And saying that Garg teams have counterplay is fair, but you still are letting in Zama. Any mon can technically be great if supported by teammates. Corv can still get of a bp before it has to roost, and it will likely always be able to do that, forcing Garg to be more offensive.
Running block on garg is IMO, a matchup fish. You are relying on facing one playstyle in order to be effective. Maybe in a top level game if you can scout your opponent, that's fine, but even then it's risky. And how is it beating dozo? It has salt cure, block, recover in it's slots, so it has to choose between Id or bp, which isn't the best.
Garg isn't bad against offensive teams, but they pressure it with too much damage before it can get going. It can maybe take one or two hits, get a recover off and be forced out.
I do believe it's overrated, it's powerful, but not dominating. I believe there is a reason why it was UUBL (even though it is OU material) because it can be difficult to execute. The mentality of how you deal with Garg is important. If you try to passively switch between defensive mons, as so many people I find on ladder try to do, then yes it will be a extremely strong mon, top 10 even. But if you play aggressively against it, ignoring the damage it deals and just hitting it, then it can be easy enough to deal with. It's kinda like meloetta (which I have been using to decent success). Any team that tries to switch around it will get destroyed due to it threatening switches with a powerful effect (meloetta's case being sleep chance). Garg does counter a lot of top mons, and if you can build a team to deal with its weaknesses, it can be great. But those weaknesses are exploitable and make it a A- rank mon, kinda on the same level as clefable or dondozo.

If you have Zam counterplay, letting it in isn't that big a deal. Regarding Corv, like I said it's free boosting for Garg while Corv does nothing to it really. Corv can try ID back but you aren't winning a 1v1 generally and you burn a lot of roosts potentially. You don't want to stay in and try to attack it when you'll be forced to burn so much recovery into it.

Block Garg can be more match up heavy, but it also can still work vs non stall teams depending on structure (so yes match up). But typical block Garg are tera ghost+curse which trap almost anything and removes them with ghost curse+salt.

It was UUBL for so long because ladder tends to take way longer than it should to catch onto meta trends. Even before it rose Garg was going strong for quite a bit there. It's not autopilot and requires more care than it used to when building with and around it, but it's also not really difficult to "execute". The power of its chip and progress forcing is useful almost guaranteed most of the time. I'm not really sure what "passively swith between defensive mons" is supposed to be, considering that for slower teams there isn't much an option beyond trying to stall out Salt Cure, as they kinda struggle to scratch it. It's an A rank mon minimum right now, not A-. It's strong and to a point where people are starting to prep for it seriously again.

On the note of Garg, I love this set.

Garganacl @ Leftovers
Level: 100
Careful Nature
Tera Type: Water
Ability: Purifying Salt
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Def / 204 SpD
- Salt Cure
- Protect
- Recover
- Curse

This set, when certain checks are removed, can potentially solo endgames by itself without needing another attack due to the longevity of recover+protect and eventually, boosted Salt Cures are too much along with their added chip. This here is a fun game illustrating the power of curse Garg where after Tusk was KOd, Garg was able to come in at turn 19 and proceeds to never switch out again and slowly accumulate boosts to win by itself, beating a double regen core along with Meow. It also highlights why Curse+Salt is great as it abuses slow pivoting regen mons attempting to soak the hit for teammates and slow pivot out, allowing Garg to get lots of chip on everything.