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I disagree. Removing Tera is the path to a balanced metagame. The matchup flipping bullshit will be gone, Tera Blast will be gone, and mons that require defensive Tera as the only counterplay will be suspect tested and subsequently banned from the tier. Tera centralizes the tier around the best Tera users and their checks. If you want a diverse and balanced tier, stop protecting Tera. Balanced meta and Tera are incompatible.
Even if you believe that, the support behind a tera ban is not there. In the list of things that we need to deal with right now, I would say tera is something like the 10th biggest issue right now, maybe 5th if I am being generous. Stuff like rain, moon and kyurem are all more important issues right now. The main part of my post was that the only two mons were specifically broken by tera, those being eleki and esparthra, evey other mon would most likely be broken without tera. Also, Tera at the very least gives you a mostly consistent answer to a lot of scary mons that if we remove it from the tier, would cause a very chaotic metagame.
TLDR, if you think Tera is broken, cool, but right now, it ain't a priority. Get the metagame into a semi-stable state, then talk about Tera.
Removing tera wouldn't overwhelmingly improve the tier, the only two mons that are broken because of tera is regieleki and esparthra, and most likely esparthra will be banned again even without tera. It ain't going to happen, people do not want it, so we just have to ban what is broken.
I feel like once we deal with rain (note, arch) and then sun, then the meta might actually be good. While I do want kyurem and moon to be banned, I can barely live with them around, so I can deal with it. It feels like this is the most diverse meta we have had and with the weathers gone, we may go back to the great days of the diverse early DLC2 meta.
I agree that we deal with rain first And that the meta isn't super awful right now, but I would say "mons broken by Tera currently in Ubers" is an extremely bad framework to look at a tera ban with! Pressure on the builder from Pokémon currently in the tier is a much more relevant consideration. It's a lot easier to account for Pokémon in the builder if they can't change their type and if they don't have a "become absurdly strong" button. If we want a diverse interesting meta that feels balanced and reasonable to build in, as opposed to a stable zap king Lu snooze fest meta, remove Tera is the clear answer; spending months on end squabbling about the fact that "we just keep banning and the tier still feels awful" certainly gives space for the 75% of players uncertain about a Tera ban to change their minds over the course of several months. Humans are known to change their minds upon being presented new data.
Hello everyone, this post is a little bit off-topic, but I would like to attempt to apply a bit of game theory to the current state of the metagame, particularly when it comes to match-ups in the tournament scene.
For the sake of simplicity, and given that players generally have preferences when it comes to the playstyles they are comfortable with, I will assume a scenario where 2 different players, paired against each other, must choose between the 2 playstyles they are most comfortable with.
Perhaps an approach that bears some similarities with reality could be:
Player 1:
-Grassy Terrain BO
-Rain
Player 2:
-Sun
-Stall
Let´s assume that there is a certain average Win Rate for the 4 possible match-ups, and that both players must play a multitude of rounds, say a Bo5.
Our objective is to determine the Probability Distribution between which playstyle to bring, that maximizes one´ Win Rate, assuming the opponent does the same. Both of the players are rational and have access to information about the average Win Rate for all 4 match-ups.
Consider the following Win Rates from Player 1´s perspective
GTerrain vs Sun - 35%
Gterrain vs Stall - 60%
Rain vs Sun - 70%
Rain vs Stall - 30%
Assuming that there is no possibility of a tie in either of the 4 match-ups, the addition of Player 1´s winrate with Player 2´s winrate for a particular match-up must equal 1.
Now, let´s put ourselves in Player 1´s shoes, if we bring Grassy Terrain, we are favored to win in case Player 2 brings Stall, but probably lose in case they bring Sun. If we bring Rain, we probably lose when Player 2 brings Stall, but probably win when Player 2 brings Sun.
Does this mean the ideal probability distribution is a 50/50?
It would for sure, in case the Win Probabilities were all either 100% or 0%, but in this case there is a slight discrepancy.
Let´s use some math to figure the ideal probability distribution.
In order to do this, we must find a function that describes Player 1´s Win Rate, where the variables are his Probability of Bringing GTerrain, his Probability of bringing Rain, the probability of Player 2 bringing Sun, and the probability of Player 2 bringing Stall.
W = Win Rate
P(G) = Probability of bringing Grassy Terrain
P(R) = Probability of bringing Rain
P(Su) = Probability of Player 2 bringing Sun
P(St) = Probability of Player 2 bringing Stall
Our Win Rate Function is :
W = (P(G) x P(Su) x 0.35 ) + (P(G) x P(St) x 0.6 ) + (P(R) x P(Su) x 0.7 ) + (P(R) x P(St) x 0.3 )
Confusing? It´s pretty simple actually. This Function consists of a sum of 4 parts. Each part corresponds to a different match-up. The probability of each match-up is the product of the probability of each playstyle, for example, the probability of a Grassy Terrain vs Sun Match-up is the product of the probability of Player 1 bringing Grassy Terrain with the probability of player 2 bringing Sun. After we do this, we can multiply each individual match-up probability with it´s expected Win Rate, sum the obtained values and obtain the final Win Rate.
There are still a few problems, the most notable one, is that this Function still has 4 variables, but worry not, we can get rid of 2 immediately.
How? Well, since Player 1 can either bring Grassy Terrain or Rain, this means that:
P(G) + P(R) =1
or
P(R) = 1- (PG)
The same thing applies to Player 2
P(Su) + P(St) = 1
or
P(St) = 1 - P(Su)
Let´s go back to our Win Rate Function and simplify it!
W = (P(G) x P(Su) x 0.35 ) + (P(G) x (1-P(Su)) x 0.6 ) + ((1-P(G)) x P(Su) x 0.7 ) + ((1-P(G)) x (1-P(Su))x 0.3 )
After doing some math, this can be simplified to:
W = (-0.65 x P(G) x P(Su)) -0.4 x P(G) + 0.4 P(Su) +1
Alright, so we have simplified our Win Rate Function the most we could, but what does this all mean?
Currently we have a function that describes our Win Rate based on 2 variables, the Probability of us bringing Grassy Terrain, which is under our control, and the probability of Player 2 bringing Sun, which is not. This means that we can not simply calculate the maximum value of the function and claim that this is our maximum possible Win Rate. It would be, in case Player 2 was stupid, but Player 2 is also trying to maximize it´s own Win Rate, meaning we need to do a little bit more work to find our Nash Equilibrium.
Let´s start with calculating Player 2´s own Win Rate Function.
Since Player 2 Wins Whenever Player 1 Loses W2 = 1-W
1-W = (P(G) x P(Su) x 0.65 ) + (P(G) x (1-P(Su)) x 0.4 ) + ((1-P(G)) x P(Su) x 0.3 ) + ((1-P(G)) x (1-P(Su))x 0.7 )
(=) (After Some Math)
W = (-P(G) x (13/20 P(Su) - 3/10)) + 2/5 P(Su) + 0.3
Now that we have 2 functions that describe Player 1´s Winrate, one directly, and the other via the ammount of times player 2 loses, we can match one to the other:
This gives us the relation between the Probability of Player 2 bringing Sun in the Nash Equilibrium and the probability of Player 1 bringing Grassy Terrain in the Nash Equilibrium. Now, we can simply substitute P(Su) in the Win Rate Expression to get a one variable functon.
W = (-0.65 x P(G) x P(Su)) -0.4 x P(G) + 0.4 P(Su) +1
(=)
W = (-0.65 x P(G) x ((3/10 P(G) -0.1) : (-1/4 + 1/4P(G)))) -0.4 x P(G) + 0.4 ((3/10 P(G) -0.1) : (-1/4 + 1/4P(G))) +1
Looking at this graph, and considering the maximum Win Probability is 1, while the Maximum probability of choosing a Grassy Terrain team is 1, we conclude that Player 1 must choose the Grassy Terrain Option, approximately 46% of the time, chosing Rain, the other 54%.
In theory, this probability distribution between the playstyles he should bring maximize his winning chances against Player 2, however, we also conclude that there is some mistake in our calculations, since the Win Probability can not be 1, or 100%, as shown in the graph.
Analysing this result, it seems logical that the probability of bringing Rain is superior to the probability of bringing Grassy Terrain, since the sum of Grassy Terrain´s Win Rates, 35% vs Sun and 60% vs Stall equals 95%, a little bit less than the sum of Rain´s Win Rates, 30% vs Stall and 70% vs Sun equals 100%.
Regardless, I am pretty sure I made some mistake along the way, and it would be really interesting if someone could expand on the subject and perhaps find my mistakes.
I think applying Game Theory to Pokemon is not a waste of time, and it could expand our knowledge about the metagame.
Expanding on my post from earlier, I believe I found a way to calculate the best probability distribution between 2 strategies for all conflicts with these 3 characteristics:
-0 Sum Game ( Symmetrical Incentives, What one loses, the other gains)
-2 Players
-2 Choices for each
Considering my example from earlier, in the ideal probability distribution, Player 1 must follow the theory of marginal advantages in order to calculate how often he must bring Grassy Terrain.
In the Nash Equilibrium:
Probability of Bringing Grassy Terrain = Marginal advantage of bringing Grassy terrain over Rain in it´s favorable match-up, divided by the Marginal advantage of Bringing Grassy terrain over Rain in its favorable match-up, minus the marginal advantage of bringing Grassy terrain over rain in it´s unfavorable match-up.
Simply Put:
P(G) = (MG+) : ((MG+) - (MG-))
The Marginal advantage of bringing Grassy Terrain in it´s favorable scenario occurs against Stall. The Marginal advantage corresponds to the subtraction of the Probability of Grassy Terrain beating Stall, with the Probability of Rain Beating Stall.
MG+ = 60-30 = 30
The Marginal advantage of bringing Grassy Terrain in it´s unfavorable scenario occurs against Sun. The Marginal advantage corresponds to the subtraction of the Probability of Grassy Terrain beating Sun, with the Probability of Rain beating Sun.
MG- = 35-70 = -35
We can now calculate P(G):
P(G) = (MG+) : ((MG+) - (MG-)) (=)
(=) P(G) = 30 : (30 - (-35)) (=)
(=) P(G) = 30 : 65 (=)
(=) P(G) = 0.4615
Multiply by 100 to obtain the percentage, and we get the number we calculated previously, but through a much simpler method, 46.15%.
We can do the same from Player 2´s Perspective and find his ideal probability distribution between the odds of Bringing Sun and the Odds of Bringing Stall.
Grassy Terrain, 46.15% of the time
Rain, 53.85% of the time
While Player 2 Brings:
Sun, 38.46% of the time
Stall, 61.54% of the time
Now that we have this data, we can even calculate how often each player wins when both choose their playstyle rationally.
W = (P(G) x P(Su) x 0.35 ) + (P(G) x P(St) x 0.6 ) + (P(R) x P(Su) x 0.7 ) + (P(R) x P(St) x 0.3 )
(=)
W = (0.4615 x 0.3846 x 0.35) + ( 0.4615 x 0.6154 x 0.6) + (0.5385 x 0.3846 x 0.7) + ( 0.5315 x 0.6154 x 0.3) (=)
W = 0.4769!
Player 1 Wins 47.69% of games against Player 2, based on their playstyle prefrences and the Win Rates between their playstyles, when both choose their teams rationally.
Player 2 Wins the remaining 52.31% of games.
It took me whole afternoon to reach this conclusion, but now that we have a functioning method to calculate probability distributions between 2 choices in 0 sum game between 2 players, this analysis can be done using other metrics, such as win rate between pokemon, in an attempt to develop current understanding of the metagame.
I lead with tusk and it simply moonblasts and kills tusk. I was running bulk up/icespinner/hlr/spin, so I had no way to damage it. I could've tera'd heatran, LIKE I DID IN THE DAMN REPLAY, do 40~ to it, and then die to acrobatics.
I lead with tusk and it simply moonblasts and kills tusk. I was running bulk up/icespinner/hlr/spin, so I had no way to damage it. I could've tera'd heatran, LIKE I DID IN THE DAMN REPLAY, do 40~ to it, and then die to acrobatics.
I feel like while you did some misplays, there wasn't much you could do about roaring moon. Leading Heatran was 100% the right play, leading tusk would have been a death sentence. I probably would have switched in either tusk to ice spinner or gambit to get a sucker punch off. But still, you played well and I think that saying that you should have lead with tusk was wrong, and as you stated you did tera heatran and that didn't work. Though I do wonder, why did you run flame body on tran? Wouldn't flash fire be better in most scenarios, especially against sun teams?
Even if you believe that, the support behind a tera ban is not there. In the list of things that we need to deal with right now, I would say tera is something like the 10th biggest issue right now, maybe 5th if I am being generous. Stuff like rain, moon and kyurem are all more important issues right now. The main part of my post was that the only two mons were specifically broken by tera, those being eleki and esparthra, evey other mon would most likely be broken without tera. Also, Tera at the very least gives you a mostly consistent answer to a lot of scary mons that if we remove it from the tier, would cause a very chaotic metagame.
TLDR, if you think Tera is broken, cool, but right now, it ain't a priority. Get the metagame into a semi-stable state, then talk about Tera.
Okay, so here is the 5000 word Heatran analysis that I have mentioned a few times. I have put it in a spoiler to not clog up the thread but I do want to say a few things first.
Firstly, a big thank you to NotDaProgGamer for giving a few of the ideas in this analysis, it is very much appreciated.
Secondly, while I do recognize that this is a lot to digest, I do encourage you to read it as it took 2 weeks to make this, though of course if you do decide to skip this, I understand.
Finally, if there is anything that I missed, plus don't hesistate to notify me so I can make the changes.
Anyways, enjoy the rest of your day. :)
Heatranalysis
Base Stats
Level 100 Stat Range
HP: 91
292-386
Attack: 90
166-306
Defense: 106
195-342
Sp. Attack: 130
238-394
Sp. Defense: 106
195-342
Speed: 77
143-278
Abilities:
Flash Fire, Flame Body (Hidden Ability) Notable Moves:
Offensive - Dragon Pulse, Earth Power, Flame Charge, Flamethrower, Flash Cannon, Lava Plume, Magma Storm, Overheat, Power Gem, Solar Beam, Scorching Sands, Steel Beam, Tera Blast Utility - Iron Defense, Protect, Rest, Stealth Rock, Substitute, Taunt, Will-O-Wisp Introduction:
Heatran has a long and diverse history in competitive pokemon. From starting out in Gen 4 as one of the best pokemon in the tier, even running moves such as torment because it was that good, to eventually becoming more of a trapper mon with magma storm that could shut down certain stall mons. Heatran has been a top tier OU mon since its introduction, but this gen has been the hardest for it by far. It lost important tools such as toxic this gen, which has hurt its viability greatly. It even at one point dropped to UU, though it quickly rose back after only a brief stint in the tier. However, it looks like history will repeat itself again as last months usage statistics saw heatran on the cusp of dropping. However, I believe that this is not truly telling of Heatran's viability, as while it may not be the most flashy mon, it still is a great component of the tier. Join me as we dive into why Heatran is in my opinion, severly undderated, and how you can best utilise it yourself.
Big thanks to NotDaProGamer for giving providing the idea for Eject Button Heatran, the eject button Heatran set and the title pun. They were a big help, so I want to thank them for their ideas. :) Role: https://www.smogon.com/dex/sv/pokemon/heatran/
Check out this link if you want a more in depth analysis on Heatran's role, though do be warned, this was made before the indigo disk DLC. To break it down, Heatran can be either an annoying wall or offensive beast that can threaten to trap and ko the opponent. The main component of this strategy is its signature move, magma storm, which is 100 BP and has a trapping effect. This can be used to isolate certain mons and against some that can't deal good damage to effectively remove them. With it's ability flash fire, heatran is also a great check to sun teams, as against mons like gouging fire that spam fire moves, it can be used to pivot around them.
Best Moves: Magma Storm
This is a staple move on heatran and gives its main niche as a trapper mon. With 100 bp, it also has impressive power unlike the other trapping moves which fall around 35 bp. However, something that should be noted is that it only has 75% accuracy, making it unreliable at times, though this is mostly worth it due to the massive reward for hitting it. Even resists don't like getting hit by it as they will have to take 1/8 of their health every turn. Definetely a must have on any heatran set. Earth Power
This move honestly should be considered a stab move as heatran always uses this move. The consistent damage of earth power allows heatran to threaten mons it might not otherwise such as fire types and toxapex, which can usually shrug off magma storm. It makes sure heatran can threaten a wider array of mons as even if they resist magma storm, they have to make sure they can take earth power. Taunt
Taunt is another staple of heatran's moveset. It allows walls to not recover their hp, which makes sure that heatran's hits sting a lot more and they cannot just stall out the damage that they take. It also makes tran a lot less passive even if it is not trapping as mons cannot switch in to set up hazards or get off a free setup turn. Not a really flashy move, but it helps heatran immensly in its role. Stealth Rock
Rounding out the four most common moves on Heatran is Stealth Rock. This allows heatran to make some level of progress against all teams and can be used during magma storms trapping if the opponent is not threatening heatran that much. It is a more inconspicious move and can be removed from heatran most of the time, but it does have a great use on tran. Will-O-Wisp
This is just as common on heatran as stealth rocks, and if rocks is on another mon, this is usually the replacement. Will-O-Wisp is a great move on Heatran to cripple physical attackers hard, while also increasing the chip damage that Heatran does. It can help heatran support it's team more effectively and make sure some things like great tusk do not get off scot free when switching in. In fact, most of heatran's switch ins are cippled by wisp, which means that every one of them has to be careful switching in. Protect
While this move is not used as often as other utility moves, protect has some useful scouting use and can be great alongside leftovers. Heatran's main weakness to ground can be scouted out by protect which can be taken advantage of by careful switching after the opponent has revealed their intentions. It can also help heatran survive longer while magma storm chip ko's the opponent, which might otherwise ko tran and live, which means that tran has failed it's job. It might not be used as often, but it can be useful in some matchups if rocks are on another mon. Tera Blast
This move is often used on more offensive movesets but can be a nice option. The most common type you will see for this is tera grass, which helps a lot against the water types that can resist or at the very least be neutral to heatran's other moves. Another option is tera fairy, which can smack dark and dragon types. Definetely a fringe pick, but it is worth considering if you want heatran to be a potential win condition. Flash Cannon
Despite being a stab move, flash cannon does not see as much use due to the limited super effective hits it can deal. However, it should always be considered due to the useful hits it can snag. The main target of this move is fairy types, though the main one is clefable which is the bulkiest of the OU fairies. It can also be nice on more offensive trans that want to hit as much as possible. Chipped Kyurem is another prime target for flash cannon, though healthy Kyurem can eat the hit and fire back with an earth power. This is a more underrated option that can be useful if the team has the right support. Steel Beam
This one is more of a niche option and is better on more aggresive teams. Despite Heatran's impressive sp.Attack stat, flash cannon can come up short on a few mons, primarily kyurem which cannot be ohko'd from full. This can be used as an option to stop these mons that can threaten sweeps by tanking a hit from heatran and setting up. It can also be used as a pseudo explosion, which is great for general damage that hits most mons extremely hard. Scorching Sands
This is another underated move in my opinion, as scorching sands is mostly outclassed by earth power, but can be useful in some scenarios. The main application of this is to spread burns if you can't fit both earth power and will-o-wisp on your heatran. This is more of a niche move, but it should have its uses. Power Gem
Power Gem is a more outclassed move in most scenarios, as most flying, ice and bug types are hit by other heatran moves, but this can come in handy for a few mons. One that comes to mind is lum berry dragonite, though it is better to wisp the dragonite and get off a second wisp by tera'ing tran. There are a few small times that this can come in handy, though these are far and few between. Flamethrower/Overheat/Lava Plume
I have lumped these moves together due to their similar nature. The main difference between these is that flamethrower is more consistent and bigger dameg, overheat can provide a better one time hit and lava plume is better at spreading burns. These are not too good in my opinion due to magma storm's almost necessary nature on heatran, but can be used if you want a more reliable fire stab. Solar Beam
This is an extremely niche option, but I thought I should mention it still. The only use it has is on sun teams, which usually can't fit heatran on them, and power herb sets, which are gimmicky. However, for those niche styles, solar beam is amazing as not having to tera to hit grass types is amazing. This should not be used most of the time, but on some team structures, it can be vital in winning games. Dragon Pulse
This is a move that I recently discovered is decent on Heatran. While other moves such as flash cannon, earth power and power gem can usually take care of prominent dragons due to their secondary typings being weak to heatran's coverage. However, against some like hydrapple, dragapult and if you tera, walking wake, the coverage moves do not hit hard enough. Dragon pulse can fix this and allow you to heavily dent these mons. It is not useful on normal sets, but on assault vest sets, where heatran does not have a lot of moves to use, this can be a great option. Ability uses: Flash Fire
Flash Fire is one of the driving factors behind Heatran's success, as being immune to a whole type is amazing utility. Boosting up your fire type moves is an added bonus to make magma storm hit even harder, sometimes meaning that you can skip out on the trapping portion by ko'ing the mon. A must have on most heatran sets, and can help even more when heatran tera's into a different type. Flame Body
Flame Body is most of the time the outclassed option for ability as flash fire is much better. However, there are some uses for it. If you want to punish contact moves, such as u-turn which is used to get out of magma storm trapping, then it can be used. Getting a burn 30% of the time can be useful for spreading more passive damage and is a great option on assault vest sets. Items:
Air Balloon
This item is going to be your go to option on most Heatran sets, as being immune to hazards and more importantly, ground type moves, is so fundementally great for Heatran, that the difficulty it can sometimes be to retain it early game can be worth it. With this item, Heatran can survive many hits due to it's massive bulk and can allow it to trap some mons that otherwise would be able to hit it super effectively, such as some Gliscor sets. Definetely the best item on Heatran.
Leftovers
If you are not choosing air balloon, this is most likely the next option you would consider. This is best when paired up with Rillaboom, which makes earthquake do half damage, to get even more recovery as air balloon is not as required on these teams. The passive healing of leftovers can be really nice during some moments where the opponent tries to brute force there way through heatran by firsting chipping it down and then using a powerful hit. Leftovers can alleviate this and make sure the opponent directly deals with Heatran, which can be used by the Heatran player.
Choice Specs
A niche item, choice specs can be used if damage is the main component you want Heatran to excel in. It can allow you to fire off powerful magma storms and earth powers that can destroy some walls that can take your hits. It is quite niche, as Heatran loves to switch its moves up, but it can come in handy once in a while.
Choice Scarf
A more niche item, choice scarf can help Heatran outpseed some important targets such as meowscarada, cinderace and weavile, allowing you to hit them for big damage, which is especially nice for fast pivot mons that like to get a u-turn off as chip. It is quite niche, as other items are more reliable, but it can come in handy once in a while.
Assault Vest
This is something that I discovered worked quite well on Heatran while creating gimmick sets. With assault vest and max Defense investment, you can live 4x super effective moves as long as they are not stab and easily live 2x super effective stab moves. You do reduce the utility of Heatran, but with certain moves such as scorching sands, this can be alleviated a bit. It can be difficult to fit this set on a team, but it can be an amazing wall with solid damage output.
Power Herb
This is the most niche of all the items listed here, however, there is one use for it, firing off one time solar beams that take one turn. This can be useful on some teams that struggle against water types and can be used to lure in threats such as Ogerpon-Wellspring.
Eject Pack
This item was inspired by a set from NotDaProGamer, which involves using Overheat to get Heatran out of the battle after setting up stealth rocks. This item can solve Heatran's issues with sometimes letting in common threats like tusk, by allowing you to hit it hard one time consistently while keeping momentum. Sadly though, this is a niche option, but can have some uses on faster paced teams. Tera types:
Tera Grass
Tera Grass is the most likely the best tera type right now, as the synergy between it and Heatran's base typing is insane. It allows you to resist the ground and water type moves that are thrown your way, while being a good defensive type on its own with flash fire making you immune to fire type moves. On more offensive movesets with tera blast, this can be used to slam water types that decide to stay in on tran, while dealing more damage to ground mons such as tusk and ting lu.
Tera Bug
Tera Bug is an alternative version that can sometimes be more useful then Tera Grass. The main differences it has with Tera Grass is that you don't have a water resistance, but have a fighting resistance. This can be useful if you have a weakness to tusk on your team and want Heatran to be a temporary check to it. I would reccomend most of the time choose Tera Grass due to its better matchup against Rain Teams, but if you are not worried about that, then Tera Bug should be considered.
Tera Fairy
This is a nice option to have in the dragon and dark infested meta, and can allow you to take on powerful threats. The poison and steel types that can threaten you are obliterated by the combination of magma storm and earth power, making this a potent defensive typing. It can allow Heatran to also more easily answer powerful dark types such as kingambit and especially roaring moon. Tera blast fairy can be a really niche option to slam these mons super effectively.
Tera Flying
This tera type is more of a niche option and has to be used in the right scenarios to bring out its full potential. Tera flying is a great reverse type for Heatran, as the fighting and ground types that can usually threaten it are now a resistance/immunity for Heatran. This does mean that stuff like ice types and rock types which Heatran could usually threaten are now powerful against Heatran. However, something like a kyurem can be decimated by a properly timed tera flying, which can give it some decent potential. Great Partners:
Flying Types
Any Flying type in general is a great partner to Heatran due to their immunity to ground moves, which is Heatran's biggest weakness. Some honourable mentions are skarmory, which can set up spikes to make Heatran switch ins take more passive damage, Enamrous, which can threaten the faster fighting types in the tier, Gliscor which can stonewall Great Tusk and set up hazards or get a toxic off and Zapdos, which can help put pressure on Great Tusk and get it in for free with volt switch/u-turn.
Kingambit
Kingambit is a great partner for Heatran, as the will-o-wisp users of the tier can boost up Heatran with flash fire. More importantly, it can trap and eliminate major threats to Gambit's sweep, such as corviknight, skarmory and if you are careful, dondozo, great tusk and iron valiant. Kingambit can in return, help against the faster threats that can destroy Heatran, such as barraskweda, and destroy them with sucker punch.
Great Tusk
Another great partner for Heatran, Great Tusk can clear hazards for Heatran, which can wear it down quickly if not accounted for, while making sure opposing Heatran don't want to come in much. In return, Heatran can threaten the grass, fairy and flying types that wall Great Tusk. These two can be a devastating pairing in the right hands, with them being able to threaten a large portion of the metagame together.
Rillaboom
Rillaboom is an amazing partner for Heatran, as they can take advantage of each other's switch ins and Rillaboom can get rid of one of Heatran's biggest weaknesses, it's vulnerability to earthquake. Combine that with knock off support and u-turn to get Heatran in safely, and this can be a devestating partnership. Heatran can also free up a moveslot on Rillaboom so it doesn't have to run high horsepower or drain punch to hit steel types as Heatran can trap them.
Toxapex
Although it has fallen to UU, toxapex is an amazing partner to Heatran as they shore up each other's defensive qualities nicely. Despite both being weak to ground, which a flying type can quickly patch up that weakness, they can resist every type the other is weak to. Toxapex can take on the water and fighting types that Heatran is weak to, while Heatran can take on the psychic and electric types that Toxapex is weak to. Plus, Heatran's trapping abilities can help Toxapex spread poison, as the poison and steel types that are immune to it are trapped by Heatran.
Kyurem
Despite checking Kyurem, it is also a great partner to it as it can take care of the troublesome rain teams and tusk that Heatran can struggle with. It also appreciates it trapping and taunting glowking for it, which is usually kyurem's biggest problem, while taking out steel types helps with it clicking it's stab moves more often. Their defensive utility is also amazing, as heatran beats the steel, fairy and dragon types that beat kyurem, while kyurem beats the water and ground types that counter heatran. They do both struggle with fighting types, so that has to be accounted for. Pokemon that Heatran Checks/Counters:
Kyurem
Countering Kyurem is right now Heatran's main claim to fame I believe, as Kyurem right now is dominating the metagame. With air balloon, Heatran can resist or be immune to every one of specs Kyurem's moves, which makes it one of the only mons to do so. This can allow Heatran to trap something for free or ko Kyurem outright with Flash cannon if chipped or Steel Beam from full. HDB sets are more difficult to play around, but with tera grass or flying, you can ko Kyurem for free. DD sets if they do not choose tera ground, are infinetely walled by Heatran. Countering most of Kyurem's sets is amazing, and with Tera outplay, it can counter all sets.
Galarian Slowking
Heatran can take on the Kyurem/Glowking core extremely well, which is a massive boon for its viability. Even without Kyurem, Heatran is still an amazing counter to glowking. It can stop glowking from getting a chilly reception off with taunt and trap it in with magma storm while dealing great damage with earth power. Glowking can only use surf or hydro pump to hit heatran for decent damage, though these moves are rare on Glowking.
Volcarona
This is the pokemon that Heatran has most of its lifetime been a great counter to. While it does have to watch out for tera ground tera blast if its balloon is popped, and tera water can be a bit tricky to deal with, Heatran is an amazing counter if Volc does not have the right Tera for it. Heatran can taunt Volcarona and trap it with magma storm, which can be a big deal since volcarona can sometimes be difficult to deal with for some team structures.
Kingambit
Heatran is a great check to gambit as it can trap and status it quite easily due to Heatran's good bulk. With tera fairy, this is much more acheivable as you can now resist sucker punch to get off a wisp. Heatran does need to be careful of gambit mindgames and not clicking magma storm when it sucker punches, but that is par for the course for a lot of gambit checks. Anything that can potentially slow down or ko gambit is valued, which Heatran can do decently well.
Gholdengo
Another mon that can be checked by Heatran, gholdengo is extremely threatened by magma storm which while it can't trap it, it does considerable damage that can ko it outright. Heatran does have to be careful around boosted shadow balls or focus blasts, but otherwise it can come in on a make it rain which will give it increased chances of surviving. This can mean that corv can defog easier, which is much appreciated in this meta.
Gliscor
Gliscor is a weird matchup for Heatran. If Heatran can keep its air balloon intact and Gliscor's only attacking move is e-quake, then Heatran can sit on and trap Gliscor, with the trapping damage negating any poison heal recovery. However, if the gliscor has any other attacking moves, then it can be troublesome. Still, a lot of utility Gliscor only have e-quake as their attacking move, so it is worthwhile to mention Heatran as a check.
Rillaboom
Rillaboom despite being a great partner to Heatran, is hard walled by Heatran. If Heatran has it's air balloon intact, even high horsepower sets can struggle. The sets that do not, which are most sets, struggle to even meaningfully damage it, with the most they can do is to knock off Heatran's balloon. Rillaboom can click u-turn right before it gets trapped, but that most likely means something else will be hit. This means that partners that are weak to Rillaboom, such as Ogerpon-Wellspring, can benefit a lot from Heatran.
Serperior
Serperior is a mon that can potentially get out of hand very quickly, but Heatran can sometimes be a hard wall to it. If they choose tera fire, then Heatran completely walls it, but if they choose tera ground, then Heatran needs to be careful to keep its balloon intact. Tera bug sets can completely wall both tera fire and tera ground sets, though they do have to be careful of stellar serperior, but that set is getting less common.
Meowscarada/Weavile
I'm lumping these two mons together because the way heatran counters them is extremely similar, though weavile is a bit more of a problem due to low kick. Aside from knock off, which doesn't deal the greatest damage to heatran, these can't deal much damage to heatran due to both flower trick and u-turn from meowscarada and triple axel from both being quad resisted, meaning that if it's item is removed, heatran can infinetely wall them. If you choose to run flame body, then these two are in dire trouble as the three attack nature of triple axel means you have three opportunities to inflict burn.
Dragapult
Dragpult is a mon that can be countered by Heatran if it uses a few sets. Against choice specs sets, if they lock themselves into draco meteor, then Heatran can switch in easily to trap them. If they have a band set, they will most likely by spamming dragon darts or u-turn, which gives Heatran free entry. If they are using a wisp + hex set, Heatran can switch in to get a flash fire boost and launch a boosted magma storm while taking little damage. However, the moves that Heatran struggles against the most are specs sets locked into shadow ball and T-Wave + hex sets, as these can break through Heatran easily. Still, againt a lot of Dragapult sets, Heatran can do amazingly.
Raging bolt
Raging bolt is a mon that Heatran can do well against with predicts. If they are choice specs and lock themselves into draco meteor, then Heatran can come in for free to get off either a magma storm or an earth power. If they lock themselves into thunderclap or thunderbolt, then Heatran can come in once to threaten them with a earth power for decent damage, which usually can be enough for a ground type to ko it. It is a bit of an iffy matchup, but it can be done with proper predictions.
Sun Teams
While Sun Teams do have answers in the form of walking wake and H-Lilligant, these mons usually can be checked by other mons on a team, such as Clodsire. If these mons are dealt with, then Heatran can run wild. Against Gouging fire specifically, it is amazing against, as while Earthquake can threaten it if the balloon is popped, Heatran can easily earth power gouging fire before this occurs. Venusaur is another mon that gets hard countered by Heatran, as it can take advantage of the boosted fire moves from sun to deal significant damage even if Venusaur switches out. Pokemon that Check/Counter Heatran:
Great Tusk
This is probably Heatran's worst matchup, though it isn't bad by any means, as Heatran can still threaten it with a burn or big damage. However, Great Tusk can threaten it with both stab moves and can force tran to switch out, letting it potentially get off a rapid spin or knock off. With careful prediction, Tusk can be dealt with, but having a losing matchup to a top mon is not the best.
Walking Wake
While Walking Wake does sometimes feature on rain teams, it is better on sun teams. As such, this is a big deal for a mon that usually can do amazingly into sun team. If this mon is choice locked into dragon moves, then Heatran can switch in and threaten it out with a powerful earth power. However, if it locks itself into hydro steam, then Heatran is toast. It also quad resists magma storm, meaning that Heatran is not chipping wake down with chip damage as easily.
Rain Teams
Heatran as a fire type obviously struggles against rain teams, though it isn't a lost cause. It's high bulk and earth power means that it can be good against archaludon and it can potentially use power gem if you want to nail pelipper early, but apart from that, it is it's worst matchup. The high power water moves that come from rain teams destroy heatran and mean that it will most likely be dead weight in the matchup.
Fighting Types
Any decently fast fighting type can check Heatran quite nicely. However, most are threatened by wisp burns, which will cripple them for the rest of the game, and valiant is destroyed by flash cannon. They do need to be careful coming in, but if they can come in safely, then the can fire off a fighting type move to destroy it.
Ground Types
If Heatran does not have an air balloon, then all ground types can threaten Heatran, especially Lando-T which sometimes likes to go special and thus is not even afraid of burns. However, they do need to be careful of both tera and wisp, which can allow them to be permanently crippled and allow Heatran to safely exit.
Heatran
Suprise, an amazing counter to Heatran is, Heatran itself. With the attacking moves of only Magma Storm and earth power, an air balloon Heatran is immune to the attacking moves of opposing Heatran. Of course, this will lead to a stalemate if both have air balloon, but if one is popped earlier than the other, than air balloon Heatran can ko the other quite easily. Sample Sets:
Heatran @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Taunt
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
Heatran @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Power Gem
- Steel Beam
Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon
- Flamethrower
Heatran @ Assault Vest
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Flash Cannon
- Scorching Sands
- Dragon Pulse
Heatran @ Power Herb
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Solar Beam
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
Heatran @ Eject Pack
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Overheat
- Stealth Rock
- Scorching Sands
Calculations:
Air Balloon/Leftovers Set
252+ SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 143-169 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 138-164 (42.7 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Grass Heatran in Rain: 156-185 (48.2 - 57.2%) -- 46.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Raging Bolt Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Heatran: 145-172 (37.5 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 285-336 (73.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 154-183 (47.6 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 253-298 (78.3 - 92.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO Choice Specs Set
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Earth Power vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 306-362 (82.2 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 277-327 (92 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Earth Power vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt: 356-420 (87.4 - 103.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 447-526 (102.9 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 266-313 (82.8 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO Assault Vest Set
252 SpA Enamorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Heatran: 256-304 (79.2 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Razor Shell vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Heatran: 246-290 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Heatran: 96-114 (29.7 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Heatran: 110-130 (34 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Heatran: 139-165 (43 - 51%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Heatran: 248-294 (76.7 - 91%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Heatran: 177-208 (54.7 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Power Herb Set
252+ SpA Heatran Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 180-212 (35 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Solar Beam vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 168-198 (49.1 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Assault Vest Primarina: 130-154 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Eject Pack Set
252+ SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 387-456 (89.1 - 105%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Tera Fire Heatran Overheat vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt: 172-203 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Tera Fire Heatran Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 320-378 (106.3 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Tera Fire Heatran Overheat vs. 244 HP / 16 SpD Gliscor: 386-456 (109.6 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Conclusion
Although Heatran struggles right now in this rain infested meta, it can do quite well into the rest of the meta, as even its checks and counters do not want to take a burn or magma storm when entering the field. I believe that Heatran's potential is highly under appreciated and by using some of these ideas I presented and using it alongside teamates, Heatran can remove select targets for others to go wild. Overall, I hope that this has convinced you that Heatran is better than people let on and that its usage statistics are lower than they should be.
Getting real tired of reading this, my boy. Give us an estimated time frame of how long you think this will take(banning Archa, banning Gouging Fire, and ???) or stop talking about priorities in the meta. Tera can be dealt with and be pushed to the front of the house by the council, but why is it not? Please remind me why Sleep Clause was skivvy when smogon weren't looking at Sleep Clause as a priority.
1. Serperior exists and is extremely good and inherently nerfs the existence of webs
1a. Araquanid is the best webber rn which is kinda fucked up if you think about it
2. "but why is it not" because there's very little community support for it. The council could, and in my opinion should, be extremely heavy handed and ban a lot of things in the tier without community consensus, but that's not how smogon is run anymore (if it was ever) and the community actually has input now. Like the volcarona qb during DLC1 was incredibly unpopular precisely because the community both didn't see it as that big of a problem and also didn't have a say. The council agreed with that and that's probably why qbs have really only been done after surveys after that point.
1. Serperior exists and is extremely good and inherently nerfs the existence of webs
1a. Araquanid is the best webber rn which is kinda fucked up if you think about it
2. "but why is it not" because there's very little community support for it. The council could, and in my opinion should, be extremely heavy handed and ban a lot of things in the tier without community consensus, but that's not how smogon is run anymore (if it was ever) and the community actually has input now. Like the volcarona qb during DLC1 was incredibly unpopular precisely because the community both didn't see it as that big of a problem and also didn't have a say. The council agreed with that and that's probably why qbs have really only been done after surveys after that point.
Furthermore, tera is a huge part of the metagame, something like sleep was a small part of the metagame that was seen for multiple reasons to be reworked. We can't give an estimated time period because we can't predict how the meta turns out. The post that you were responding to seems to not understand that we have to deal with the most broken things first as seen by the community, which is arch right now. Tera is right now seen as fine.
Furthermore, tera is a huge part of the metagame, something like sleep was a small part of the metagame that was seen for multiple reasons to be reworked. We can't give an estimated time period because we can't predict how the meta turns out. The post that you were responding to seems to not understand that we have to deal with the most broken things first as seen by the community, which is arch right now. Tera is right now seen as fine.
I wouldn't necessarily say tera is seen as "fine" moreso as "not really worth a third suspect test". Like tera is a relatively common complaint among forum users but most of the people who don't post on the forum (probably) are either indifferent or enjoy tera as a mechanic. You are right tho
Even if you believe that, the support behind a tera ban is not there. In the list of things that we need to deal with right now, I would say tera is something like the 10th biggest issue right now, maybe 5th if I am being generous. Stuff like rain, moon and kyurem are all more important issues right now. The main part of my post was that the only two mons were specifically broken by tera, those being eleki and esparthra, evey other mon would most likely be broken without tera. Also, Tera at the very least gives you a mostly consistent answer to a lot of scary mons that if we remove it from the tier, would cause a very chaotic metagame.
TLDR, if you think Tera is broken, cool, but right now, it ain't a priority. Get the metagame into a semi-stable state, then talk about Tera.
I’ve been saying the same thing about Tera for better part of a year; the metagame cannot be balanced with Tera. It is a futile goal. I’m not arguing about whether support is or isn’t there. It’s a statement of personal speculation. We are chasing a “stable metagame” with a mechanic that creates instability. That is an oxymoron.
And as I alluded to in my post- needing to use defensive Teras to counter threats is keeping mons around that would otherwise be banned.
The ladder is so annoying right now. The amount of Arch Rain, Gouging Fire Sun, and just general Roaring Moon teams on the ladder right seems to be extremely high even in low ladder where I was trying to avoid them. The current team I am testing is somehow bad against all of these. This is more of a me problem. But what I was hoping for was to test it against certain team comps, namely stall, and I just cannot seem to find them with this specific team. Like not even 1 in 30 games.
The one time I actually want to face a lot of stall and I can't find it! Maybe I should just take a meta team and ladder normally for once. Are all the stalls in mid ladder or so?
The ladder is so annoying right now. The amount of Arch Rain, Gouging Fire Sun, and just general Roaring Moon teams on the ladder right seems to be extremely high even in low ladder where I was trying to avoid them. The current team I am testing is somehow bad against all of these. This is more of a me problem. But what I was hoping for was to test it against certain team comps, namely stall, and I just cannot seem to find them with this specific team. Like not even 1 in 30 games.
The one time I actually want to face a lot of stall and I can't find it! Maybe I should just take a meta team and ladder normally for once. Are all the stalls in mid ladder or so?
From what I believe, yes. HO/Balance is very easy to approach when teambuilding, but also has a lot of depth. Not saying that stall doesn't have depth, but to newer players it seems boring and to higher players HO is much more versatile.
More likely, you should have a mon that is great against stall, but then the rest of your team should cover the rest of the metagame, though you can of course decide how you build your teams.
I’ve been saying the same thing about Tera for better part of a year; the metagame cannot be balanced with Tera. It is a futile goal. I’m not arguing about whether support is or isn’t there. It’s a statement of personal speculation. We are chasing a “stable metagame” with a mechanic that creates instability. That is an oxymoron.
And as I alluded to in my post- needing to use defensive Teras to counter threats is keeping mons around that would otherwise be banned.
I'll be real, can shit be balanced without Tera? With or without, there will always be some fucking thing that enough of this forum will decry as broken that we will enter a suspect test in. Maybe that gen 7 council was right, because at least they had a metagame to cry over.
God, it isn't even late. See y'all tomorrow, or later today if I get bored.
From what I believe, yes. HO/Balance is very easy to approach when teambuilding, but also has a lot of depth. Not saying that stall doesn't have depth, but to newer players it seems boring and to higher players HO is much more versatile.
Yeah, I'm primarily testing concepts at the moment. I also like my jank too much in general. It seems I'll have to make something that's more competitive. But it is frustrating.
More likely, you should have a mon that is great against stall, but then the rest of your team should cover the rest of the metagame, though you can of course decide how you build your teams.
This was more or less my theory. But I can't find stall to test the concept. I didn't want to fix the rest of the team or move on until I learned about this part of it. Or at least how the wallbreaker synergized with it against stall. I only got partially there.
Yeah, I'm primarily testing concepts at the moment. I also like my jank too much in general. It seems I'll have to make something that's more competitive. But it is frustrating.
As someone who uses gimmick teams/unconventional mons, I get that. I'm right now trying out sunny day growth amoonguss and custap berry endure enamrous, both of which are doing great btw, but using them can sometimes feel like a chore right now.
This was more or less my theory. But I can't find stall to test the concept. I didn't want to fix the rest of the team or move on until I learned about this part of it. Or at least how the wallbreaker synergized with it against stall. I only got partially there.
Something that you can do is calcs, which can show how well your mon can theoritically can do against stall staples. If you want a mon that can do well against stall, then sinistcha is a good option, though most likely you have chosen your stallbreaker. Although I do wonder, what mon are you using on your team against stall? It could probably help with building your team.
I would really like to see a Moon suspect, personally. I definitely lean more towards the side of it being broken. It's super constraining on the builder (we can laugh at Just A Shroom God all we want but the reality is it's pretty easy to build a team that looks good at a glance, but a well positioned Moon just devours it). There really aren't a lot of solid checks to it, and the ones that exist (Weavile, Band Dragonite, BP Skarm/Corviknight/etc) aren't the easiest Pokemon to just slap on any team. It's also super constraining in play; checking it defensively requires you to play extremely conservatively with its checks, which opens up a ton of opportunities for Moon's teammates, and a single misplay against a well-played Moon is just game over.
That being said, I don't think it's anywhere near as insane as it was pre-DLC, and I'm not even sure I'd call it the best Pokemon in the metagame at the moment (I'd point that finger towards Raging Bolt but I'm not really sure if it's Bolt by itself or just rain in general that's doing most of the legwork there).
I think moon is suspect worthy; I just think that replay being posted and blaming the tier because of it shows a fundamental misunderstanding/issue that exists regardless of moon p much
As someone who uses gimmick teams/unconventional mons, I get that. I'm right now trying out sunny day growth amoonguss and custap berry endure enamrous, both of which are doing great btw, but using them can sometimes feel like a chore right now.
Something that you can do is calcs, which can show how well your mon can theoretically can do against stall staples. If you want a mon that can do well against stall, then sinistcha is a good option, though most likely you have chosen your stallbreaker. Although I do wonder, what mon are you using on your team against stall? It could probably help with building your team.
The problem with Calcs is that theoretical damage only works if you can reliably convert it. The only way to do that is with actual matches. I don't believe you necesarrily need high ranking matches to determine this. But I think you at least need to experience it in game enough to get a feel for handling the switches.
I have been testing my theory that a mixed attacking D-Speed + Wallbreaker could render most defensive cores moot. With Kyurem, this part worked extremely well. The team itself wasn't good because I had no speed control, but I made it more to learn the mon and test certain concepts. So I was satisfied and moved on.
With my current team, I'm using Hoopa-U and Psychic Terrain. The results are not as good. I did have a few matches against stall earlier. Just not much I can conclude from it. One was very unconventional that I lost to. The others were private matches with someone who brought a Mega Sableye stall team. I won those easily with the Psychic Terrain team, but it's not exactly conclusive.
Just now, I did finally get a stall and I lost because of an unexpected Dondozo Tera Dark. Kinda played a little too well into my psychic spam. I think I could play around that if I knew to expect it, but no excuses. I lost. So I have like a sample of 4 games and 2 of them aren't even fully gen 9 teams.
The biggest problem with the Psychic Terrain team I made is I didn't put priority. So it just loses to rain Barraskewda and setup sweepers that get going. It can beat Grassy Terrain teams and Hazard stack. But it can't beat rain, struggles with sun that has Gouging Fire, and hates speed boosting Roaring Moon. Attack Boosting Roaring Moon is a bit less of a threat, but still is a problem if it gets a DD up with positioning.
Anyways, Hoopa-U is the second wallbreaker I'm testing. And then after that, I would like to move onto a third and maybe a fourth.
The problem with Calcs is that theoretical damage only works if you can reliably convert it. The only way to do that is with actual matches. I don't believe you necesarrily need high ranking matches to determine this. But I think you at least need to experience it in game enough to get a feel for handling the switches.
I have been testing my theory that a mixed attacking D-Speed + Wallbreaker could render most defensive cores moot. With Kyurem, this part worked extremely well. The team itself wasn't good because I had no speed control, but I made it more to learn the mon and test certain concepts. So I was satisfied and moved on.
With my current team, I'm using Hoopa-U and Psychic Terrain. The results are not as good. I did have a few matches against stall earlier. Just not much I can conclude from it. One was very unconventional that I lost to. The others were private matches with someone who brought a Mega Sableye stall team. I won those easily with the Psychic Terrain team, but it's not exactly conclusive.
Just now, I did finally get a stall and I lost because of an unexpected Dondozo Tera Dark. Kinda played a little too well into my psychic spam. I think I could play around that if I knew to expect it, but no excuses. I lost. So I have like a sample of 4 games and 2 of them aren't even fully gen 9 teams.
The biggest problem with the Psychic Terrain team I made is I didn't put priority. So it just loses to rain Barraskewda and setup sweepers that get going. It can beat Grassy Terrain teams and Hazard stack. But it can't beat rain, struggles with sun that has Gouging Fire, and hates speed boosting Roaring Moon. Attack Boosting Roaring Moon is a bit less of a threat, but still is a problem if it gets a DD up with positioning.
Anyways, Hoopa-U is the second wallbreaker I'm testing. And then after that, I would like to move onto a third and maybe a fourth.
Uhh, I'm guessing your playing NatDex cause if your opponent is using Mega Sableye in SV, I think you should be worrying more about that then a stallbreaker.
A mon that I have found good against stall is magic guard reuniclus with calm mind, recover, psyshock and energy ball. It eats up most hits and doesn't worry about passive damage. It does horribly against arch teams, but if your not worried about that, then it could be good, though it does seem like you've got it covered.
Potentially a focus sash polteageist could be good, as at +4, which you can get easily from shell smash and weak armour, can outspeed barra in rain. You do need hazard removal, on the psychic terrain team I've used it was tusk because that can help against dark types so you can spam expanding force easier.
I think moon is suspect worthy; I just think that replay being posted and blaming the tier because of it shows a fundamental misunderstanding/issue that exists regardless of moon p much
Uhh, I'm guessing your playing NatDex cause if your opponent is using Mega Sableye in SV, I think you should be worrying more about that then a stallbreaker.
