Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[Joseph Gomes]

Terapagos is not impossible to handle but I have found that in OU something gets banned if it has too restrictive counterplay or that the counterplay is not like a commonly used pokemon so what will tip the scales one way or the other is how specific the counterplay is and if it can be dealt with an average team. Simply letting it click calm mind a few times obviously makes it sweep but you can say that with most pokemon, the main drawback i see is its pretty bad speed and remember its bulk is the same as Snorlax on both sides which is something to consider. Obviously it is much better than snorlax but just as a comparison I mentioned it. Let us give Terapagos a few days and we will see if it is too centralizing or not. I do feel it has a possibility to be an OU pokemon but we will see. Keep up the good work Finchinator and the rest of you guys, this must be stressful with all the people screaming ban this and ban that. Aight have a good one.

Spreading misinformation, are we? dw not accusing, just point out your mistake

252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 558-656 (121 - 142.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terapagos-Stellar: 362-428 (78.5 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Morkal]

Me after whomping Terror Turtle, Midrai, and Deo-Sanic with the supreme chad Archaludon, only to then get swept by Tera Ground Serperior.

Seriously Serperior is the new Volcarona I hate this thing so much, even more than the stupid shiny turtle. The king of MU fishing has arrived in not-so-stellar fashion.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I am going to break Terapagos tiering down into one post and not comment further on the matter because we have a whole new metagame to enjoy and I am not going to waste my time responding to things (especially those said without reading my own prior posts or those said in bad faith).

If Terapagos is banned, it will be banned as a whole Pokemon -- not separated by form or interaction.

Terapagos itself is one Pokemon and no matter how you try to fragment it to cut collateral, you run into major tiering policy issues that either establish new precedent that is undesirable or contradict past precedent.

We do not have any interest in separating things based off of Tera-triggered forms. We did not handle Ogerpon-Hearthflame in that capacity (nor was there any outcry for it then). This point exists regardless of Ogerpon-H's pre-Tera form being broken or not and that is not an applicable counter-argument as it does not address the fact that the point exists regardless of it -- the handling would still be consistent and the same.

Going alongside this, the precedent cited to support fragmenting Terapagos is cited incorrectly on some fronts and inappicable on others. Ubers Mega Rayquaze precedent does not apply to OU as they have a different and more minimalist tiering approach than any usage based tier, which includes OU. Ubers is already a tier based off of a banlist, so they naturally have a diferent set of standards than we do.

i still personally disagree with the decision to tier the forms together and i don't think the new precedent it would establish would be particularly unsavory, but i'm in no position to make that decision for anyone else. despite my disagreement with your approach to this particular matter, i respect the reasoning behind it and will stand by whatever decision the council makes regarding terapagos. thanks for taking the time to clear the air a bit about why that choice was made and why existing precedent is not applicable

 

[TFS]

Terapagos is a huge problem and I can only imagine the Mega form wasn't being looked at when the decision to allow it was made lol. Unlike Regieleki/etc, Mega Terapagos is a different Pokemon from the regular form - with different stats/abilities/etc - and there's already an existing precedent for only banning the Mega forms of Pokemon like Salamence or Kangaskhan. Seconding the existing sentiment that removing the base form on its own would probably do more harm to the tier than good, especially in the current state of Deoxys and Gliscor being allowed lol.

Besides Terapagos,is also obviously insane. Even beyond the scope of Day 1 HO, Spikes have chronically been a problem this generation and have gotten at least one other Pokemon banned; I can't imagine the best Spiker in the game was ever intended to be a permanent fixture of the tier.

also please run tera fire on , stellar is Not Good

 

[taziathegreat]

Finch, what’s the decided pace DLC2 is going to go at ? I know with home and DLC 1 we where more deliberate and moved with pace since we where aware those meta’s where 3-4 months each at.

Match up turtle is likely broken but considering how this base tier feels relatively stable I’d personally would like to see how it develops over more time than the weekend quick ban we’ve grown accustomed too

 

[cyrtie]

Spreading misinformation, are we? dw not accusing, just point out your mistake

252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 558-656 (121 - 142.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terapagos-Stellar: 362-428 (78.5 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I forgot a word I meant to say "but on both sides" have changed that now though

 

[SittinGamer]

No matter how much anyone whines, there is zero chance for the Terastal forme only to be banned. This will not stop me from whining. Clinging to the Hearthflame comparison is a faulty one at a fundamental level. Of course, no one with sound mind will ask for just banning Tera Hearthflame, but it is objective fact that no other Pokemon than a 600BST legendary gains BST when Terastalizing, let alone 100 points. To argue that this should be weighted on with the exact same rules as always is to remain purposely blind to an entirely new issue. Megas aren't even an apt comparison, as there is one singular mon who can do this, as opposed to a fairly wide pool.

Edit: In essence, we've had Tera break Pokemon before through the usages of Tera which we always debate: furthering an offensive profile, blistering STAB, hard checks, or defensive profile switches. Terapagos does absolutely none of these except through collateral in the STAB. Not one other Pokemon gains even a single base stat point when Terastalizing, let alone enough to be more than a whole evolution's worth of BST total.

 

[Ehmcee]

Been liking Cinderace on a lot of builds right now, with how common screens and hazard stack is, I've found it to be incredibly consistent as both a detterent and a great pivot. Outspeeding a lot of the new mons is great as well, Serp in particular.

 

[Finchinator]

To me, there are a few cool Pokemon to talk about.

Terapagos: it has a power level that's too consistently strong for something of its bulk and movepool to remain in the tier. It sweeps a higher portion of games than anything else we see due to this. I expect it to be voted on at some point in the near future.

Deoxys-Speed: PsySpam or just stright NP can be potent, lead sets with hazards or screens are good but not broken. Potential radar and council discussion candidate without a doubt, but I do not see anything besides Terapagos going first.

Volcarona and Roaring Moon: Up to the same tricks as before at similar degrees of efficiency, but both mandate a bit more support team wise due to the higher power level and lack of set-up opportunities. Not too worried yet, but perhaps someday soon.

Raging Bolt: Unreasonable to certain offenses, but it can be prepared for and limited. Still quite strong, but not seen as a major priority to me yet.

Iron Boulder: Arguably broken to some. Very strong in my eyes and I am curious how people adapt offense to stop it given the combination of speed and coverage.

Gouging Fire: My favorite so far. Not broken, but very strong.

 

[Pabloaram]

Terapagos: it has a power level that's too consistently strong for something of its bulk and movepool to remain in the tier. It sweeps a higher portion of games than anything else we see due to this. I expect it to be voted on at some point in the near future.

TLDR Turtle getting nuke on monday

 

[Finchinator]

No matter how much anyone whines, there is zero chance for the Terastal forme only to be banned. This will not stop me from whining. Clinging to the Hearthflame comparison is a faulty one at a fundamental level. Of course no one with sound mind will ask for just banning Tera Hearthflame, but it is objective fact that no other Pokemon than a 600BST legendary gains BST when Terastalizing, let alone 100 points. To argue that this should be weighted on with the exact same rules as always is to remain purposely blind to an entirely new issue. Megas aren't even an apt comparison, as there is one singular mon who can do this, as opposed to a fairly wide pool.

The BST of the pokemon in question have nothing to do with tiering policy and we are not going to suddenly break consistency for the sake of minimizing collateral for something you want to use.

So "of course no one with sound mind will ask for just banning Tera Hearthflame" also means "of course no one with sound mind will ask for just banning Tera [insert any Tera dependent form]".

 

[Luck3]

Deoxys-Defense is a Pokemon I don't see anyone talking about, but cosmic+stored power is really powerful. Even though it's so weak, it can beat stuff like Garg and Terapagos 1v1 because of pressure cutting tera starstorm and recover in half.

 

[Dhrabb]

After having barely missed top 50 3 times with my sand team, I'd like to apologize to my GOAT for thinking it wouldn't be that great in OU, it has carried me to 1860 ish, sand is pretty good right now.

Anyway quick thoughts, Stellar Terapagos is hilariously broken, I've been managing it decently ish with AV . I won't say quickban it rn or whatever, let people have their fun.

Idk about Deo S, maybe it's my ass running AV , AV and Sand Rush all at once but it doesn't feel as bad. Offensive sets I can see being pretty tough to switch into. It's also funny after all the forum discussion about Darkrai it seems pretty tame, maybe that will change after the meta settles but I think Darkrai can stay OU his gen.

Other than that, the new paradoxes are pretty good, Serperior is as annoying as ever, Blaziken I haven't run into much but I could see being problematic, Hydrapple and Archaludon are really cool. Rotom getting pain split back is fucking amazing I love it. Oh and Kingambit is still broken lol

 

[SittinGamer]

I have no leg in the race for Terapagos, personally. My argument is not that I want to use a fun Pokemon and go Brr, but that this is such a fundamentally different type of situation that comparing it to Hearthflame is not apt. One Pokemon and one Pokemon alone being able to abuse a mechanic in a way that no other one can through augmenting BST seems like plenty of reasoning to where Tera Pagos (oh my god I JUST realized its name) could go while the original can be healthy (idk if the original one is healthy on its own, but that's a different discussion)

Did fail with the fallacy tho

 

[CobsonYaoi]

Deoxys-Defense is a Pokemon I don't see anyone talking about, but cosmic+stored power is really powerful. Even though it's so weak, it can beat stuff like Garg and Terapagos 1v1 because of pressure cutting tera starstorm and recover in half.

>Landorus used Taunt!
>The opposing Deoxsys-D fell for the taunt!
>The opposing Deoxsys-D can't use Cosmic Power after the taunt!

 

[ianlazerbeem]

To me, there are a few cool Pokemon to talk about.

Terapagos: it has a power level that's too consistently strong for something of its bulk and movepool to remain in the tier. It sweeps a higher portion of games than anything else we see due to this. I expect it to be voted on at some point in the near future.

Deoxys-Speed: PsySpam or just stright NP can be potent, lead sets with hazards or screens are good but not broken. Potential radar and council discussion candidate without a doubt, but I do not see anything besides Terapagos going first.

Volcarona and Roaring Moon: Up to the same tricks as before at similar degrees of efficiency, but both mandate a bit more support team wise due to the higher power level and lack of set-up opportunities. Not too worried yet, but perhaps someday soon.

Raging Bolt: Unreasonable to certain offenses, but it can be prepared for and limited. Still quite strong, but not seen as a major priority to me yet.

Iron Boulder: Arguably broken to some. Very strong in my eyes and I am curious how people adapt offense to stop it given the combination of speed and coverage.

Gouging Fire: My favorite so far. Not broken, but very strong.

Definitely agree that there's adaptation necessary vs Boulder that hasn't really been fully explored yet, personally if this thing stays around I think it'll be a major player in changing what the metagame looks like, the speed tier alone really changes a lot of dynamics

 

[CatsAreCute]

Things I thought I should add my two cents:

Hazard issue again. Gliscor/Deo Speed are absolutely the best hazard stackers now. There's no notable new defogger as far as I could see in the teambuilder (but I only looked at OU and UU), and rapid spin distribution was only given to blastoise, excadrill, the hitmons, tentacruel, and terapagos. Realistically, only terapagos and excadrill might remain as OU viable spinning (and even then, excadrill is just worse than great tusk at spinning now).

Serperior might want to run Tera Fire/Ground/Dragon for the numerous additions. I tried Fire, but I noticed it wasn't cutting it against the newly added Dragons. And Corviknight is pretty much nonexistent.

Terapagos Stellar is ridiculously bulky. I was using a +4 Iron Boulder Close combat, and the thing survived it when it Stellar Tera'd. Personally, I rather you guys just ban the stellar form but keep the Terastal form (600 bst) because of the aforementioned hazard problem and having at least one other spin option.

Iron Boulder seems strong, but that rock/psychic typing really hurts. U-turn hurts .

 

[Goodstyle]

I'm really starting to doubt Darkrai as broken threat. I know the meta is insane right now, but this guy's not impressing me right now. Dark Pulse is truly too weak of a move to take advantage of its STAB, it's always missing key OHKO's even after NP... that or I'm getting insanely low rolls. Anyone else feel like this guy's not that good?

 

[Magcargo]

Bulkarona is fine. Being forced to run Tera Blast Ground for the new paradox mons is annoying, but not a massive weakness. Regardless of what Tera Blast this mon runs, it will have some holes in its coverage - the main thing right now is that those holes are less noticeable due to most teams not having any real defensive backbone. Gaining weaknesses to Grassy glide when u Tera isn't fun. Tera Dragon might be good for this reason.

Honestly, i feel this mon is just doing the same shit its been doing the last 4 generations, even with Tera. I used this guy in a Tera-less room tour and he still swept the opponent (who was running Latios and raging Bolt) with Firey Dance & Tera Blast Normal coverage.... lmao.

 

[Luck3]

>Landorus used Taunt!
>The opposing Deoxsys-D fell for the taunt!
>The opposing Deoxsys-D can't use Cosmic Power after the taunt!

Yeah taunt and encore are annoying, but being able to beat most Terapagos is worth it imo.

 

[KamenOH]

I will say, it seems like no matter what happens, it will be twisted into a reason to ban Terapgaos as a whole
Do wish some people would just be honest with whether or not they want it banned, instead of hiding behind smokescreens and a refusal to at least think about how the simple, "Terapagos-Stellar is banned" would work.
It's just like saying Mega Metagross is banned, because while you can't bring out megagross first thing, you also cant bring out stellarpagos first thing. It's a conscious, in battle decision to bring it out, and you're banning that ability to bring it out.
If it's different, explain how its different, instead of just handwaving it as different and fucking off.

 

[Hyjack]

I will say, it seems like no matter what happens, it will be twisted into a reason to ban Terapgaos as a whole
Do wish some people would just be honest with whether or not they want it banned, instead of hiding behind smokescreens and a refusal to at least think about how the simple, "Terapagos-Stellar is banned" would work.
It's just like saying Mega Metagross is banned, because while you can't bring out megagross first thing, you also cant bring out stellarpagos first thing. It's a conscious, in battle decision to bring it out, and you're banning that ability to bring it out.
If it's different, explain how its different, instead of just handwaving it as different and fucking off.

Metagrossite is Banned
There is no Terapagosite to be banned

 

[redninjapuffle]

I will say, it seems like no matter what happens, it will be twisted into a reason to ban Terapgaos as a whole
Do wish some people would just be honest with whether or not they want it banned, instead of hiding behind smokescreens and a refusal to at least think about how the simple, "Terapagos-Stellar is banned" would work.
It's just like saying Mega Metagross is banned, because while you can't bring out megagross first thing, you also cant bring out stellarpagos first thing. It's a conscious, in battle decision to bring it out, and you're banning that ability to bring it out.
If it's different, explain how its different, instead of just handwaving it as different and fucking off.

For megas, all you needed to do was ban the item in question, and thats it
with terapagos, you have to ban the ability for terapagos to click the tera button entirely, which is more complex then just banning an item

 

[Morkal]

Today is finals day for me so my time is limited, but I still wanted to give a quick rundown of the Pokemon that I've gone against and have used so far.

Archaludon

Archaludon @ Leftovers
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Dragon Tail
- Protect
- Stealth Rock

My favorite mon in OU bar none that sits on half of the meta right now. Stamina is insane (almost entirely invalidating Pokemon multi-hit strats) and just doesn't die, even while lacking support. I honestly haven't even bothered using its Special Attack stat, it's just so naturally bulky that I find myself mowing down 3-4 mons on an enemy team consistently with Stamina-boosted Body Press. Steel/Dragon is an insane defensive typing - I wholeheartedly expect Archaludon to remain a consistent member of OU for the rest of the generation.

Personal Verdict: Versatile OU Staple, A-/A Rank

Darkrai

Darkrai @ Life Orb
Ability: Bad Dreams
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Tera Blast

Darkrai has been inconsistent, but generally good. He's not broken right now by any means (although once the meta settles and broken mons like the Terror Turtle and Serperior are gone, it might be on the radar), but he's still good. Darkrai heavily suffers from 4MSS and is extremely setup reliant if you're not running Scarf (which is surprisingly outsped more often than you think) or Specs (which is good but is also exploitable). Solid A- rank mon and has a great place in the metagame.

Personal Verdict: Versatile OU Offensive Mon, A-/A Rank

Enamorus

Enamorus @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Superpower
- Sludge Bomb

As I mentioned before I love this thing, easily my favorite scarfer - outspeeds Deo-S Timid/Jolly, eats half of the meta for breakfast with STAB Moonblast, and its incredible coverage. Matches up against Pokemon like Serperior quite well as well (being able to deal with the Tera Fire variant quite handily).

Personal Verdict: OU Premier Scarf User, B+ Rank

Deoxys-Speed

Deoxys-Speed @ Expert Belt
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Knock Off
- Psycho Boost
- Ice Beam
- Energy Ball

People are flipping out about the hazard sets when they need to be flipping out over the offensive sets instead. Deo-S is scary - I'm not sure if it's banworthy quite yet, but something to look out for. It's so versatile and its speed has launched an all-out reshuffling of the meta's base standards. If Deo-S stays, it will likely become a top 5 OU mon.

Personal Verdict: Extremely Versatile, A+/S- Rank (Possible Radar Suspect)

Serperior

Serperior @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Fire/Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Tera Blast
- Dragon Pulse
- Glare

Kill it with fire. Matchup fishing from hell to a degree that makes Volcarona blush. Sometimes it'll do nothing but other times it'll sweep your whole team unless you're carrying Ditto or Unaware. This mon imo needs to go, it's not healthy.

Personal Verdict: Matchup Fishing Nightmare, S/S+ Rank (Recommended Radar Suspect)

Deoxys-Defense

Deoxys-Defense @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Cosmic Power
- Night Shade
- Recover
- Taunt

Has all the makings of a UUBL mon honestly, it has some nice qualities but the nerfs were too much for it. It'll start seeing more use if Deoxys-S gets the boot, but I don't expect this thing to be more than mid-tier OU when all is said and done.

Personal Verdict: Bulky but Flawed Defensive Utility, B-/B Rank

I'll comment on more as I feel comfortable talking about more, additional Pokemon like Raging Bolt (Inconsistent), Iron Boulder (Fantastic), Gouging Fire (Inconsistent), Terapagos (the GSC OU Celebi of Gen 9 OU, it just doesn't die half the time), Latios (Great Choice User), and some others.​

 

[chaIk]

Remember the Arceus-Steel/Flying incident?
Since the new mons don't have images, you can rename them to another new pokemon and trick your opponents
https://pokepast.es/7c93d093a71dbcc5 a team with 6 renamed mons; even when your opponent finds out you switched their names, they will still sometimes switch in the wrong pokemon because they forgor