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that can't be the way it works, because how do we decide what is and isn't the "identity of ou"? snorlax ran the meta in gen 1 (alongside chansey and tauros) and was the meta in gen 2, but it's steadily fallen off since then. should we tier based on it being an ou staple? what about magnezone, ou for 5 generations straight until this one? should we unban last respects and sand veil so tyranitar can be ou again? what generation are we using to "define" ou? gen 8, because it was the most recent? gen 7, the last gen before dexit and therefore the most diverse? gen 6, arguably the most well-balanced gen? gen 5, the last gen without introducing a new wacky generational mechanic (gems don't count, i'm talking "click a button and your pokemon emits light and does a zany thing")? gen 4, the first gen where the concept of "competitive pokemon" took off? why is any one of these better for shaping all other metas around specifically? and what happens if one of these "identity" mons is nerfed? for example, if heatran loses toxic, or lando-t loses defog and knock off, or weavile loses knock off and triple axel, or toxapex loses scald, all of which happened this gen? hell, what happens if one is buffed? like, say, if volcarona gains some sort of usable ground coverage, or gliscor gets spikes? should we refrain from banning them even if they're broken because they're long-time ou staples?
That is the reason why I mentioned the power scaling aspect. Weavile fell off because it lost some incredibly important tools, and so did Tyranitar so yeah, tough luck. Though Toxapex and Lando did as well, they lost tools most other Pokémon have also lost, so much so that they stayed OU. IF they get buffed and cross the line, well, I'm Gliscor hater #1 and the answer is simple: send them to Ubers. I'm not suggesting a full-stop on meta development, I'm suggesting a baseline to streamline suspect-testing and expectations when developing a meta.
Heatran is a much better example - the dude has ended in OU in every generation since its release. Heatran has been OU since I started playing this game, and the only reason it briefly fell off this gen was due to obscenely overpowered stuff that have been banned due to quick tiering action, so there is precedent to taking action when it becomes power crept to hell and beyond. That is seventeen years in OU. That is closing on two decades. It is a decent starting point to define what is the power level within OU standards.
I'm ngl having OU defined by more or less artificial and biased tiering practices to keep the famous and beloved mons in OU is kind of asinine. The point of metas is that they change, each gen is a snapshot of that. Sure it's unfortunate that a lot of mons began to fall off, but could you imagine gen III OU being balanced around the idea that mons from tbe gen prior like Snorlax, Cloyster, Raikou, Nidoking and Golem, mons that have begun to fall off or have fallen off completely, being what tiering action is focused on, to maintain the pedigree and power these mons have? We all get attached to long-time competitive favorites, and seeing them fall off is unfortunate, but that's just how it is sometimes. Not to say that we should let a bunch of broken stuff roam around but I think having OU being defined by certain mons overall is just, questionable.
Oh yeah, I mostly agree with you on meta changes. There must be decisions on what is "OU" for every gen. Tusk would certainly be part of this one. The thing is there must be a starting point for the "what is OU" debate to at least solidify it in thought when balancing the game. The other option is to just wrestle endless power creep from an endlessly updating videogame. I intentionally chose Pokémon I have seen in OU ever since I started playing this game in gen 5 (and Toxapex because I think it fits the bill nicely enough). Most of those have been OU for thirteen years man. Heatran specifically has been OU for 17 years as I have mentioned above. That is seventeen years being meta-relevant enough to consistently hit more than 50% chance to be seen at least once in 20 battles on the ladder. (sic). With this in mind, the Fire/Steel frog is a great indicator of OU power levels over the decades. Plus, I'm a Heatran hater (excess RNG) and I won't elaborate further on this because the post is getting too long already.
Now, if things fall due to meta conditions, they fall. Tyranitar fell because it lost some of its most important tools, as well as important teammates. Weavile fell because it lost a shitton of moves. Lando-T was about to fall because Gliscor (another decade-long OU staple) went over the curve of power creep and invalidated its presence.
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All of that being said, I'm not gonna die on this specific hill lol - The hill I will defend is: there is a dire need to ponder and define what is OU - whatever the method (as long as it is efficient of course). Doing so will streamline suspect processes, define clear goals and expectations when making tiering decisions, and diminish the whiplash of the power creep clusterfuck we experience every time a DLC drops.
Bruh, it has more attack than great tusk. It's attacking moves are a tiny bit weaker, sunsteel strike 100 Bp to great tusks headlong rush 120 bp. Besides, as people have said, it is way more specially bulky and faster. Besides that "stat distrubtion" point you talk about, while true in theory, does not work with leo, as the sp attack points means it can run special sets just as well You're beating a dead horse, you haven't addressed the core issue that people have that it is so fricking bulky, while being relatively fast and powerful.
All of that being said, I'm not gonna die on this specific hill lol - The hill I will defend is: there is a dire need to ponder and define what is OU - whatever the method (as long as it is efficient of course). Doing so will streamline suspect processes, define clear goals and expectations when making tiering decisions, and diminish the whiplash of the power creep clusterfuck we experience every time a DLC drops.
That is a better idea then what you had before. Sure, it may seem good to have a few pokemon we judge brokeness on, but the metagame changes so frequently that there is almost never going to be a pokemon that is always a staple. Closest we have is heatran or lando-t, but they fell off at some point this gen. Defining OU would solve a lot of issues with unbanning mons, maybe even we make a list of pokemon that we can even somewhat vaguely consider for unbans so stuff like solgeleo or lugia aren't brought up.
Hoopa-Unbound has 700 BST, it's all about stat distribution. Tusk has 53 Sp Atk. Hands has 50 Sp Atk. Zamazenta has 80 Sp Atk.
We already have Future Port Regenerator
It didn't get Stored Power last gen. can run mixed too. Psychic and Steel aren't good offensive types, ghost and fairy are.
Nothing makes Solgaleo instant Ubers when Tusk and Zamazenta are similar offensively and the other ones are slower but hit much harder.
Except that solgaleo can run any of these sets and you likely won't know which one until it's done too much damage. Dragapult can't future port, tusk can't run mixed, hoopa unbound can't stomach a physical hit. Solgaleo covers all bases at once that's what makes it a legendary, extreme variance in available sets
Hi, sorry if this is the wrong place for this, but I'm curious about how Darkrai fared in the OU (Suspect Test) slot in OUPL this year. Namely, why was it used so little? In its second week of legality it was only brought once, with every other game functioning like a normal OU one. Is it that underwhelming/hard to build with? It was used six out of eight possible times in week one, what changed between the first two weeks?
while i dont really care about darkrai being brought down or not, even though i think it deserves to be tested later, i dont think saying "people realized it sucks" is really all that fair.
we only used darkrai for two weeks in a suspect slot where it was the mon of interest. cteaming darkrai teams (and the suspect mon in question in general) in environments like a two week suspect slot garner better results than using darkrai. the goal in team tours is to win after all. did darkrai underperform? sorta, but that could be attributed teams be overly prepared for the mon to an extent that wouldnt be seen in regular play. keep in mind there were only 8 games played total in a "darkrai meta" where using darkrai was kind of the point of the slot. while this is some sample size, its not exactly enough nor accurate to draw a good conclusion due to the nature of how suspect slots usually work. suspect slots usually are counter productive anyway tiering wise because of the over preparation that occurs.
this is a reason I stand on the belief still we should suspect darkrai later on rather than straight up unban it, citing 8 games where the expectation is to play with a pokemon of interest simply is not enough to draw any sort of conclusions. suspect slots are more for fun than anything.
yes my player did say she thinks its suck, that's her opinion and that perfectly okay. though i believe its hard to really draw much conclusion out of 8 games (2 for each player) for the reason I stated above.
Hoopa-Unbound has 700 BST, it's all about stat distribution. Tusk has 53 Sp Atk. Hands has 50 Sp Atk. Zamazenta has 80 Sp Atk.
We already have Future Port Regenerator
It didn't get Stored Power last gen. can run mixed too. Psychic and Steel aren't good offensive types, ghost and fairy are.
Nothing makes Solgaleo instant Ubers when Tusk and Zamazenta are similar offensively and the other ones are slower but hit much harder.
Hoopa-U has 680, but its the most wonkiest distribution and in a Metagame that is Hyper offensive. It's major flaw is that almost every physical attacker will outspeed and OHKO it easily because its Def and Speed are poor. But that's besides the point.
Point is Solgaleo (assuming it keeps most of its moves and gets movepool buff in the DLC) is what I like to call a "Stat Stick"
It wouldn't be the most damage dealing Pokemon in OU
It wouldn't be the tankiest Pokemon in OU.
It's far from the fastest Pokemon in OU.
It may not be the most versatile Pokemon in OU (arguably at least. Depends on movepool changes)
Looking at individual aspects of a "Stat Stick" may make it seem fine as is, but you got to realize that it's all on 1 character/weapon/Pokemon/whatever.
Depending on what moves Solgaleo keeps and gets in the DLC, I can definitely see it being one of those "stat sticks" Pokemon.
That is a better idea then what you had before. Sure, it may seem good to have a few pokemon we judge brokeness on, but the metagame changes so frequently that there is almost never going to be a pokemon that is always a staple. Closest we have is heatran or lando-t, but they fell off at some point this gen. Defining OU would solve a lot of issues with unbanning mons, maybe even we make a list of pokemon that we can even somewhat vaguely consider for unbans so stuff like solgeleo or lugia aren't brought up.
Yeah man. There is only so much winging it can do when faced with gen 9's unprecedented power creep. The council has done a superb job on transparency and agility, but to create tier stability we need some (even if somewhat arbitrary) clear tiering rules.
Yeah man. There is only so much winging it can do when faced with gen 9's unprecedented power creep. The council has done a superb job on transparency and agility, but to create tier stability we need some (even if somewhat arbitrary) clear tiering rules.
It would probably be something like "here are xyz that happens in the tier. We probably won't follow them to the t, but it may stop people from bitching about everything." Heck at some point, people were talking about sleep clause which, okay? Was that really important right then? It was during the sneasler era but even then it wasn't really a priority. (I know someone is going to disagree with me and before you do, stop. Don't care because it ain't important, sneasler is banned right now.)
It would probably be something like "here are xyz that happens in the tier. We probably won't follow them to the t, but it may stop people from bitching about everything." Heck at some point, people were talking about sleep clause which, okay? Was that really important right then? It was during the sneasler era but even then it wasn't really a priority. (I know someone is going to disagree with me and before you do, stop. Don't care because it ain't important, sneasler is banned right now.)
I'm glad we agree. I haven't been visiting the forums lately because it is incredibly frustrating to see the same discussions being had over and over again by people who are just constantly attempting to sneak insults and dunk on others, so it is a breath of fresh air to be able to discuss and find an endpoint for once.
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Regarding Ubers: dropping anything without giving ample time for the DLC to stabilize is not a good idea. It is *very* counterproductive to test anything on unstable grounds. The DLC release will be messy enough by itself, and dropping stuff to see if it works will not only add to the chaos but we won't be able to actually see if it works well within the meta because the meta has not yet settled, completely negating the "test the waters" part.
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Bruh, it has more attack than great tusk. It's attacking moves are a tiny bit weaker, sunsteel strike 100 Bp to great tusks headlong rush 120 bp. Besides, as people have said, it is way more specially bulky and faster. Besides that "stat distrubtion" point you talk about, while true in theory, does not work with leo, as the sp attack points means it can run special sets just as well You're beating a dead horse, you haven't addressed the core issue that people have that it is so fricking bulky, while being relatively fast and powerful.
Great Tusk is fricking bulky (more def, less sp def) while being almost equally fast with Rapid Spin to boost speed and is more powerful with 120bp stabs.
Zamazenta is bulky (same sp def, less def but has daunting shield) while being way faster and has a 120bp stab. Adamant Zamazenta and jolly solgaleo have the same atk stat.
252 Atk Choice Band Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta: 168-198 (43.2 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta: 195-229 (50.2 - 59%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta: 199-235 (51.2 - 60.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
We don't know if the special bulk and psychic/thunderbolt with 113 sp atk makes it better than offensive tusk when it has weaker Stabs, can't boost its stats and psychic/steel isn't good offensively.
We also don't know if Banded jolly Solgaleo is better than Banded adamant Zamazenta. Banded Zamazenta and Tusk aren't banworthy.
There isn't an obvious broken thing about it like the other ubers and the tier has somewhat similar pokemon already. Solgaleo has some unique traits (more sp def/more speed except zamazenta/actual sp atk) that the other bulky ou/uu attackers lack , in exchange for doing less damage, lacking good set up moves and bad offensive typing.
Solgaleo will have banded/life orb and future port as sets, it doesn't have stored power to be broken like or atk/speed boost like
A 100bp steel move doesn't sweep teams.
252 Atk Mew Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 174-206 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mew Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 332-392 (89.4 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Mew Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 206-244 (49.6 - 58.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mew Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 222-262 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Great Tusk is slightly physically bulkier, but is significantly frailer than Solgaleo on the Special side, being almost twice as bulky, and that is only raw bulk. Solgaleo is a steel type. A steel type with recovery as well. Making it so that it resists so much stuff. The psychic part of its typing does hold it back somewhat defensively, but resisting Normal, Steel, Fairy, Grass, Ice, Psychic, Poison, Flying, Dragon, and Rock are pretty important.
Solgaleo is in between Landorus-T and Zapdos in base speed, meaning it can easily outrun Great Tusk and several important Pokemon speed tiers with slight investment. It isn't a big deal on its own, but it is something worth considering with how bulky and strong Solgaleo is.
And Rapid Spin, yeah it's cool, but would you argue to have Dialga drop to OU because it doesn't learn Rapid Spin? Also it (currently) gets Flame Charge anyways.
Yeah it is, but how far behind is Solgaleo?
252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 182-216 (46.1 - 54.8%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 158-188 (40.1 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Solgaleo Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Avalugg: 126-150 (31.9 - 38%) -- 94.4% chance to 3HKO
In raw power, Great Tusk is ahead, but not by much with its Steel STAB, and only more noticeable with its Psychic STAB. It does suck for Solgaleo, but also do remember that Solgaleo actually has a pretty good SpA stat as well. This does give Solgaleo a pretty distinct advantage over most Pokemon in OU which is being able to hit the frailer side of walls.
Notably, Great Tusk can't 2HKO Dondozo with Choice Band STABs, meanwhile Solgaleo can just attack Dondozo on the special side.
80 SpA Expert Belt Solgaleo Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 262-310 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 195-229 (38.6 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mew Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 174-206 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mew Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 332-392 (89.4 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Mew Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 206-244 (49.6 - 58.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mew Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 222-262 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Great Tusk is slightly physically bulkier, but is significantly frailer than Solgaleo on the Special side, being almost twice as bulky, and that is only raw bulk. Solgaleo is a steel type. A steel type with recovery as well. Making it so that it resists so much stuff. The psychic part of its typing does hold it back somewhat defensively, but resisting Normal, Steel, Fairy, Grass, Ice, Psychic, Poison, Flying, Dragon, and Rock are pretty important.
Solgaleo is in between Landorus-T and Zapdos in base speed, meaning it can easily outrun Great Tusk and several important Pokemon speed tiers with slight investment. It isn't a big deal on its own, but it is something worth considering with how bulky and strong Solgaleo is.
And Rapid Spin, yeah it's cool, but would you argue to have Dialga drop to OU because it doesn't learn Rapid Spin? Also it (currently) gets Flame Charge anyways.
Yeah it is, but how far behind is Solgaleo?
252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 182-216 (46.1 - 54.8%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 158-188 (40.1 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Solgaleo Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Avalugg: 126-150 (31.9 - 38%) -- 94.4% chance to 3HKO
In raw power, Great Tusk is ahead, but not by much with its Steel STAB, and only more noticeable with its Psychic STAB. It does suck for Solgaleo, but also do remember that Solgaleo actually has a pretty good SpA stat as well. This does give Solgaleo a pretty distinct advantage over most Pokemon in OU which is being able to hit the frailer side of walls.
Notably, Great Tusk can't 2HKO Dondozo with Choice Band STABs, meanwhile Solgaleo can just attack Dondozo on the special side.
80 SpA Expert Belt Solgaleo Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 262-310 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 195-229 (38.6 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Great Tusk is fricking bulky (more def, less sp def) while being almost equally fast with Rapid Spin to boost speed and is more powerful with 120bp stabs.
Zamazenta is bulky (same sp def, less def but has daunting shield) while being way faster and has a 120bp stab. Adamant Zamazenta and jolly solgaleo have the same atk stat.
252 Atk Choice Band Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta: 168-198 (43.2 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta: 195-229 (50.2 - 59%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta: 199-235 (51.2 - 60.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
We don't know if the special bulk and psychic/thunderbolt with 113 sp atk makes it better than offensive tusk when it has weaker Stabs, can't boost its stats and psychic/steel isn't good offensively.
We also don't know if Banded jolly Solgaleo is better than Banded adamant Zamazenta. Banded Zamazenta and Tusk aren't banworthy.
There isn't an obvious broken thing about it like the other ubers and the tier has somewhat similar pokemon already. Solgaleo has some unique traits (more sp def/more speed except zamazenta/actual sp atk) that the other bulky ou/uu attackers lack , in exchange for doing less damage, lacking good set up moves and bad offensive typing.
Solgaleo will have banded/life orb and future port as sets, it doesn't have stored power to be broken like or atk/speed boost like
A 100bp steel move doesn't sweep teams.
Okay I posted these before so going to reshare them to get back to the point.
(Tera is used just to keep all hits neutral for numerical demonstration)
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 156-184 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 186-219 (44.8 - 52.7%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 210-247 (50.6 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Fighting Great Tusk: 313-369 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Steel Great Tusk: 199-235 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Great Tusk is negligibly more bulky Physically than Solgaleo, and the latter is a good 1.5x bulkier on the special side without investment (heck Tusk is barely bulkier at FULL SpD investment than 0/0 Sol). These things are not even in the same ball park for defensive play considering Solgaleo also has reliable recovery and an immunity to Toxic. Parroting this point is incorrect and getting the position no favor. Here's one I punched in for fun
252 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 175-207 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta: 165-195 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
To reflect on your own calc, Solgaleo is bulkier than Zamazenta on both sides while having Mixed attacking capacity and the mentioned recovery.
The Rapid Spin mention is a massive reach because even best case scenario every time, that requires a turn of set-up to matter when often Tusk answers are things bulky enough to take 1-2 big hits from it (and Rapid Spin Chip won't change 90% of those), meaning the Speed Boost is free entry for them anyway. If we're going to that extent of straw grasping, Solgaleo has Flame Charge which can't even be spin-blocked by the tier's most significant Mon OR the tier's primary Fast Killer.
"We don't know if the Special Bulk and Psychic/Thunderbolt with 113 Sp atk makes it better than offensive tusk"
It probably does when that comes with Calm Mind and/or Healing, Mixed Attacker potential, and a defensive profile that can accumulate multiple boosts for the CM approach. The only Unaware user in OU no afraid of those two moves is Skeledirge, who is a strong Pokemon but not what defensive teams want their Unaware option constrained to all the time.
Saying Solgaleo has "some unique traits" over the other bulky attackers mentioned is forgetting it has ALL of those at once. 3/4 of the mons you cite fall over to a decent Special STAB (relevant since they're very slow and thus WILL be taking hits like Sol), and the outlier in Zamazenta is not without its detractors as balanced in OU, despite its lack of recovery and atrocious match-up into Fat teams. And this is all me assuming it won't have any Gen 7 Transfer moves to play with (most relevant/likely being Knock Off, but also Roar and Toxic to be mentioned) which would make it ridiculously impossible to prevent disruption/progress against considering you are NOT going to OHKO this thing in a Tera Meta unless your opponent essentially feeds it to your set up sweeper. To put the bulk in perspective Adamant Kingambit needs 2 Faints to POTENTIALLY OHKO this thing on a SE hit, and 4 to guarantee it (and this is with Kowtow, not the Sucker Punch it needs to hit first) even at 0/0.
You say it will have 2 sets (Banded/Life Orb and Future Port) as if that's an argument. Chi-Yu had 2 sets with Scarf/Specs, Flutter Mane was basically all BE, Annihilape and Espathra had literally 1 set to discuss apiece unless you count different Tera Types as a new set. Set quantity doesn't mean anything unless you demonstrate that they won't be unhealthy influences, which is a tall ask with a well-distributed 680 BST. This would be dropping it into the tier as the bulkiest THING we have that isn't without offensive presence.
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking-Galar: 246-290 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 294-348 (61.5 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That base HP is a hell of a drug for bulk, and always bear in mind this is without the typical deficiency in the other defense that many mons will face
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking-Galar: 330-390 (83.7 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 372-440 (77.8 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solgaleo: 270-320 (56.4 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I question immensely how this thread couldn't even reach a consensus on something like Darkrai and now has moved into discussing Solgaleo, an Uber who primarily lacks usage due to an "I am you but better" version of it being a Top 3 Ubers Mon since the latter's inception. This isn't even a case of a power creep catching up to an actively nerfed kit/no-longer-min-maxed statline or a mess of a movepool and concept design (Zamazenta is worse defensively than Zacian despite their motifs because they still designed it as an Attacker with worthless defensive counterparts instead of real utility or longevity), this mon is a swiss army knife with a statline that could make most of these roles work among titans, much less downstairs.
252 Atk Mew Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 174-206 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mew Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 332-392 (89.4 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Mew Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 206-244 (49.6 - 58.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mew Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 222-262 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Great Tusk is slightly physically bulkier, but is significantly frailer than Solgaleo on the Special side, being almost twice as bulky, and that is only raw bulk. Solgaleo is a steel type. A steel type with recovery as well. Making it so that it resists so much stuff. The psychic part of its typing does hold it back somewhat defensively, but resisting Normal, Steel, Fairy, Grass, Ice, Psychic, Poison, Flying, Dragon, and Rock are pretty important.
Solgaleo is in between Landorus-T and Zapdos in base speed, meaning it can easily outrun Great Tusk and several important Pokemon speed tiers with slight investment. It isn't a big deal on its own, but it is something worth considering with how bulky and strong Solgaleo is.
And Rapid Spin, yeah it's cool, but would you argue to have Dialga drop to OU because it doesn't learn Rapid Spin? Also it (currently) gets Flame Charge anyways.
Yeah it is, but how far behind is Solgaleo?
252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 182-216 (46.1 - 54.8%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 158-188 (40.1 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Solgaleo Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fighting Avalugg: 126-150 (31.9 - 38%) -- 94.4% chance to 3HKO
In raw power, Great Tusk is ahead, but not by much with its Steel STAB, and only more noticeable with its Psychic STAB. It does suck for Solgaleo, but also do remember that Solgaleo actually has a pretty good SpA stat as well. This does give Solgaleo a pretty distinct advantage over most Pokemon in OU which is being able to hit the frailer side of walls.
Notably, Great Tusk can't 2HKO Dondozo with Choice Band STABs, meanwhile Solgaleo can just attack Dondozo on the special side.
80 SpA Expert Belt Solgaleo Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 262-310 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 195-229 (38.6 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
More Sp Def, outspeeding Lando/Tusk and 113 Sp Atk is Solgaleo's advantage Great Tusk, gotta agree with that.
Tusk makes that up with better offensive typing (steel/psychic isn't good offensively) and 120bp Stabs.
I doubt that this would push Solgaleo to Ubers because the typing and Stabs holds it back unlike , making it a lot easier to answer. Solgaleo would be closer to A/A+ rank OU mon imo.
We also have Banded Adamant Zamazenta in the tier which shares Solgaleo's Sp Def and Atk (when Solgaleo is jolly) and has way higher speed.
More Sp Def, outspeeding Lando/Tusk and 113 Sp Atk is Solgaleo's advantage Great Tusk, gotta agree with that.
Tusk makes that up with better offensive typing (steel/psychic isn't good offensively) and 120bp Stabs.
I doubt that this would push Solgaleo to Ubers because the typing and Stabs holds it back unlike , making it a lot easier to answer. Solgaleo would be closer to A/A+ rank OU mon imo.
We also have Banded Adamant Zamazenta in the tier which shares Solgaleo's Sp Def and Atk (when Solgaleo is jolly) and has way higher speed.
I think you're underselling how amazing that special defense, special attack and speed are actually. Sure, if it didn't have one of those things, then it may be alright. But combined, it leads it to basically "stat check" everything. Zamazenta does that somewhat, but it not only usually has one chance to do it (Dauntless shield activates once) and it struggles against fat teams. Plus, steel/psychic isn't too bad offensively.
This is against the national dex, the only pokemon that are OU right now that resist both stabs are heatran, h-samurott, greninja, corviknight, kingambit and gholdengo. Close combat cooks heatran, h-samurott, greninja and kingambit while flare blitz destroys corviknight and gholdengo.
Solgaleo @ Life Orb
Ability: Full Metal Body
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Psychic Fangs
- Close Combat
- Flare Blitz
This took me like 2 minutes to cook up. Reminder that you said that zamazenta has to be choice band, so yeah. It can and will destroy the entire tier.
"We don't know if the Special Bulk and Psychic/Thunderbolt with 113 Sp atk makes it better than offensive tusk"
It probably does when that comes with Calm Mind and/or Healing, Mixed Attacker potential, and a defensive profile that can accumulate multiple boosts for the CM approach. The only Unaware user in OU no afraid of those two moves is Skeledirge, who is a strong Pokemon but not what defensive teams want their Unaware option constrained to all the time.
Saying Solgaleo has "some unique traits" over the other bulky attackers mentioned is forgetting it has ALL of those at once. 3/4 of the mons you cite fall over to a decent Special STAB (relevant since they're very slow and thus WILL be taking hits like Sol), and the outlier in Zamazenta is not without its detractors as balanced in OU, despite its lack of recovery and atrocious match-up into Fat teams. And this is all me assuming it won't have any Gen 7 Transfer moves to play with (most relevant/likely being Knock Off, but also Roar and Toxic to be mentioned) which would make it ridiculously impossible to prevent disruption/progress against considering you are NOT going to OHKO this thing in a Tera Meta unless your opponent essentially feeds it to your set up sweeper. To put the bulk in perspective Adamant Kingambit needs 2 Faints to POTENTIALLY OHKO this thing on a SE hit, and 4 to guarantee it (and this is with Kowtow, not the Sucker Punch it needs to hit first) even at 0/0.
You say it will have 2 sets (Banded/Life Orb and Future Port) as if that's an argument. Chi-Yu had 2 sets with Scarf/Specs, Flutter Mane was basically all BE, Annihilape and Espathra had literally 1 set to discuss apiece unless you count different Tera Types as a new set. Set quantity doesn't mean anything unless you demonstrate that they won't be unhealthy influences, which is a tall ask with a well-distributed 680 BST. This would be dropping it into the tier as the bulkiest THING we have that isn't without offensive presence.
For CM, we already have Cresselia with high bulk, recovery and Stored Power. Solgaleo with Stored Power would potentially be broken, but it doesn't get it, nor will it get Toxic. Maybe it get Knock Off or it will lose it like Lando.
The broken mons you mention have 1 broken set that allows it to Sweep or OHKO everything. You don't sweep with 97 Speed and awkward Steel/Psychic Stabs, 113 Sp Atk isn't that high either.
Sadly it has, don't get me wrong, I think zamazenta is a balanced pokemon in the metagame. Whether that shows the brokness of the pokemon in the tier or not, that's up to you. But yeah, the gold standard for not unbanning pokemon was no super legendaries (i.e your box legendaries and not your lake spirits for example). Now, anything is on the table and people have been abusing that power to hell and back.
Solgaleo @ Life Orb
Ability: Full Metal Body
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Psychic Fangs
- Close Combat
- Flare Blitz
This took me like 2 minutes to cook up. Reminder that you said that zamazenta has to be choice band, so yeah. It can and will destroy the entire tier.
The first four can pivot and then you do
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 422-500 (101.6 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 360-426 (86.7 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 368-434 (88.6 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Quark Drive Iron Moth Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 396-468 (95.4 - 112.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
The first four can pivot and then you do
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 422-500 (101.6 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 360-426 (86.7 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 368-434 (88.6 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Quark Drive Iron Moth Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 396-468 (95.4 - 112.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
First two are slower and skeledirge are slower and are you seriously staying in on any of these moves? Also, can any of them actually take a hit before? Let's see.
252+ Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 551-650 (196 - 231.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 689-814 (245.1 - 289.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Solgaleo Psychic Fangs vs. Weavile: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Weavile has to switch in on psychic fangs to not get obliterated, I didn't even need to include the cc calc, it does minimum nearly 4x it's health
252+ Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 308-364 (97.1 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 263-309 (82.9 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 123-146 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Can only switch in on cc and flare blitz, better, but with chip it can get ohko'd by it's stabs.
252+ Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 168-199 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 135-159 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO
Better again, but gets destroyed by cc.
252+ Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 153-181 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 153-181 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 122-144 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Can't switch in to it and for your calcs, it has to be booster sp.a. Meaning on sticky web teams it is outsped. Niche, but still on option.
So yeah, big wall of calcs, but none of these can switch in more then once, except dragapult and iron moth on flare blitz, and iron moth usually wants to stay in. Booster speed doesn't even okho. Only weavile has a guarenteed ko, others are rolls, and weavile is not an OU pokemon. Still good in OU, but not widespread.
First two are slower and skeledirge are slower and are you seriously staying in on any of these moves? Also, can any of them actually take a hit before? Let's see.
252+ Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 551-650 (196 - 231.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 689-814 (245.1 - 289.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Solgaleo Psychic Fangs vs. Weavile: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Weavile has to switch in on psychic fangs to not get obliterated, I didn't even need to include the cc calc, it does minimum nearly 4x it's health
252+ Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 308-364 (97.1 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 263-309 (82.9 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 123-146 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Can only switch in on cc and flare blitz, better, but with chip it can get ohko'd by it's stabs.
252+ Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 168-199 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 135-159 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO
Better again, but gets destroyed by cc.
252+ Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 153-181 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 153-181 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 122-144 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Can't switch in to it and for your calcs, it has to be booster sp.a. Meaning on sticky web teams it is outsped. Niche, but still on option.
So yeah, big wall of calcs, but none of these can switch in more then once, except dragapult and iron moth on flare blitz, and iron moth usually wants to stay in. Booster speed doesn't even okho. Only weavile has a guarenteed ko, others are rolls, and weavile is not an OU pokemon. Still good in OU, but not widespread.
Nobody says that they can take a hit, but you can use bulky water and birds to bring them safely in. U-turn, Flip turn and Volt switch chip Solgaleo enough.
Nobody says that they can take a hit, but you can use bulky water and birds to bring them safely in. U-turn, Flip turn and Volt switch chip Solgaleo enough.
Sure, but again if you stay in on these attackers, then that would be very dumb. Plus, only iron moth isn't locked into a move, which is extremely exploitable. We haven't even discussed tera yet, which would completely flip it's matchups. Tera fighting makes cc stronger while giving you a resistance to dark and removing all other prior weaknesses. Imma just stop arguing because it's getting us nowhere and is going around in circles, plus I have to sleep eventually
As for the set on terrakion, probably not. Terrakion, while powerful, is not speedy enough or bulky for OU in relation to it's poor defensive typing. Walking wake, zamazenta, greninja, waterpon, iron moth (with energy ball) and iron valiant all outspeed it and can ko it or heavily damage it. Could have a niche, and with tera it could be decent, but it most likely will be a UU or even RU mon this gen.
Super off-topic but this is what waiting for DLC2 does to a MF: don't you all get kinda triggered by the way some people order their moves. I swear to god like I get so crazy. Like boosting moves go in the first slot, recovery moves go last. If you have STABs and coverage, STABs go first. Longest name at third spot and shortest name at the bottom. I swear to god half of my PS experience is rearranging the moves so that they make sense to me.
Rant aside (and no beef with OP), I feel like Terrakion is super underrated. Unique typing, rock resist, dark resist with Justified, crazy Attack stat... if the meta is benevolent to it, it thrives, and if not, it can make its place. Looking forward to it.
can run mixed too. Psychic and Steel aren't good offensive types, ghost and fairy are.
, in exchange for doing less damage, lacking good set up moves and bad offensive typing. 
or atk/speed boost like 
, making it a lot easier to answer. Solgaleo would be closer to A/A+ rank OU mon imo.
