I'm just going to call this one now. Reuniclus being added back means there's going to be another mini-campaign to get Stored Power banned again that immediately dies when Reuniclus turns out to be RUBL.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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New trailer: revealed almost nothing from what we already knew
Quick thoughs:
this could be potentially good if pex stays down and the tapus don't come back, he is bulky enough to take on a lot and could work on some balances or hazard stacks
it has sacred fire, but doesn't feel appealing
I guess it's another electric type with ice coverage now but idk, doesn't seem very appealing
and
both are pretty similar, heavy prediction reliant and overall pult is better, but I can see them having a niche, I hope they keep defog, if they do then at least there's that
S+++++++ in UU
S++++++ in RU? I have no idea what's going on in the lower tiers
I have no idea where this guy is gonna end up, but I guess justified + dark resistance could mean gambit check?
this thing got banned because of too many deadly sets, and while the power creep is bigger, tera could be the thing it needs to keep up and maybe get banned again
remember when this thing was OU? He is never coming back, but I felt the need to mention it
lower tier
lower tier
lower tier
lower tier
lower tier, but has sticky webs + compound eyes, so if he gets sleep powder I can see it having a niche
lower tier
gamefreak I'm begging, please buff this thing
this one did not appear in the trailer, but I'm assuming he is back since his brothers and sister are back, this seems outclassed by both greninja and walking wake, I don't know what kind of niche he could have
definitely does not like how common water resists/immunities are, and the lack of reliable recovery in this hazard-infested metagame hurts it a lot. itll have a place but its likely going to be miniscule unless some massive metagame shifts (DLC drops, bans, etc.) take place during the indigo disk and likely wont be doing much this generation. the latter likes having tera blast for coverage in substitution for HP but i doubt itll mean much in the context of OU. better hope their paradox forms make a differencechoice specs
will be a crazy strong special nuke, especially w/ offensive tera. absolutely nothing can safely tank a tera dragon draco meteor besides the fairy types that get obliterated by psychic and 
who gets crippled by trick. i doubt it will be broken outright but i believe itll have a lot of potential in OU this generation, even with 
and 
around will love the ability to terastallize on setup-based sets, and its typing, bulk and levitate will likely give it a solid niche defensively as well. i imagine itll have a solid niche on either HO as a dual screens lead or double dance sweeper, but if it regains defog then i can see utility variants popping up from time to time is stonewalled by 
and will have a lot of trouble getting past bulkier variants of 
. its speed tier also leaves it vulnerable to getting revenge killed by 
, 
, 
,
, 
and its rock typing gives it a nasty weakness to grassy glide from 
. i doubt itll have much of an impact this time aroundi also doubt
and will be very relevant in the tier. the former could at least be a reliable check to but its also completely walled by and forced out by a lot of other common metagame staples. and the latter i have absolutely no hope for in OU should be banned if it regains roost and should just be banned outright could be interesting to see in this new metagame but like with it strongly dislikes the prevalence of water resists in the metagame, and like with it also misses out on important speed benchmarks. i do think it has potential with tera though but time will tell if it lives up to said potentialnot gonna be covering the non-legendaries because theyre all going to be RU at best unless
gets tidy up and gets spammed for about a week and a half in OU
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So I'm not going back to read any of the past uhhhhh 46(?) pages since I last bothered posting here, but...
How we doin'?
Are we done with the toxic one liners that constantly plague the OU forum?
And hoping that answer is "yes", has anyone been using anything innovative that's been enjoyable?
Did Hawlucha manage to find a little niche? Is Rillaboom still booming? Is special Lando-T living in the footsteps of its incarnate form?
Is Dragapult having a good day? Does Enamorus (or however you spell it) have a happy place?
Who's dancing, who's 'mancing, and who's yesterday's old shoes?
How we doin'?
Are we done with the toxic one liners that constantly plague the OU forum?
And hoping that answer is "yes", has anyone been using anything innovative that's been enjoyable?
Did Hawlucha manage to find a little niche? Is Rillaboom still booming? Is special Lando-T living in the footsteps of its incarnate form?
Is Dragapult having a good day? Does Enamorus (or however you spell it) have a happy place?
Who's dancing, who's 'mancing, and who's yesterday's old shoes?
I don't know if this is getting unbanned next week as the council hasn't made a decision yet but this event Baxcalibur in South Korea is getting access to Ice Spinner, a move it can't learn via TM
Trash.
Outside of Kyurem if he doesn’t get banned again, I don’t see any of these legendaries being OU, a few of them might be niche at best.
Edit: Entei was so bad I forgot to upload his sprite lmao
Provided lando-t gets imprison again (PLEASE I WANNA PLAY SHITTY HO TEAMS), I might use flygon as a pseudo-zygarde on that style of HO team similar to a team I ran for a bit in gen 7 (and have now lost please someone give it to me again). Y'all are also doing the thing with reuniclus again where there are arguments about whether it'll be OP or not, but it'll probably just be niche like it has been since SM. That niche will also probably be really not worth using if kingambit sticks around.
People who actually still want Kingambit banned, how do you reckon with its 38% win rate in OUPL? Above-average tournament win rate has been a useful metric for determining brokenness for Pokémon such as Chien Pao and Espathra, and more recently Rillaboom and Sneasler. Rillaboom even without Sneasler has a 77% win rate as of Week 1, despite being the 8th most used Pokémon! Tied with Glowking, Kingambit has the lowest win rate of the top 10. And this is supposed to be a Pokémon that "flips outcomes and steals games!"
I don't particularly reckon with it. If anything, the number kinda demonstrates that Kingambit turns matchups into a coin flip with how close it is to 50%. I've made several posts to the effect before, but I consider Kingambit banworthy because of the immense pressure it puts on the opponent in the builder relative to how noncommittal and easy to fit in your team it is, and how it has the potential to win a game for you regardless of how either you or the opponent have been playing up until that point with only the minimum preparation from you. In essence, Kingambit demands teams bring at least one but realistically two checks for it that have to be prepared to deal with its wild card Tera and try to stay out of +2 Sucker Punch range the entire match, while Kingambit gets these results by just staying in the back until a few allies have fainted and then putting the opponent in high-cost 50/50s. To an extent, how much it actually wins games is less relevant than how much counterplay it demands from the entire metagame to not win more games.
I'd ask you in turn, how do you reckon with Kingambit being #2 in usage despite having the lowest win rate of the top 10? Seems like for something that on paper loses more than it wins, a lot of players in at least the 1600 ELO range want to use it anyway.
If Suicune lacks Scald it's a def shitmon. Anyway, I think since Wake gets it, it's most likely it gets it
The closer a win rate is to 50%, the more people are using it. 38% win rate means a lot of people were using it and it did decide games, especially in games where both players had gambit. This is why win rates alone don't mean anything. They don't give any context. I could win 1 game with fucking limber ditto and say "look guys this pokemon is great it has a 100% win rate" when I'm the only one using it. Win rate only means something if you also give it the context of usage stats.
Ok, it was the fourth most used Pokémon on 13, or 32.50% of teams, and #1 most frequently Tera'd Pokémon at 3 times. So it was brought to less than a third of the games, and won a little more than a third of each of the games it was in. So for every game won by a Kingambit, there were about two Kingambit teams that lost. Not exactly the same as limber Ditto. "The fact that it wins less than half of all games actually means it's winning an inordinate amount" is really a stretch
And in that vein "winning less than half of all matches, means it's basically a coin flip" is also really a stretch, I disagree on your point that Kingambit "invalidates the game before it," you either play around it on preview or you don't, you lose if your opponent succeeds at eliminating its counterplay and you win if you eliminate your opponent's counterplay to your wincon. I think we are going to have to respectfully disagree on whether a fighting type + something with either encore/substitute/will-o-wisp/iron defense is an undue restriction in the team builder. I can concede that the undue restriction that Tera as a whole places on the teambuilder can make this much more restricting than it seems in a vacuum.
To answer your question, there is a fundamental difference between the ladder and OUPL that every single team on OUPL is built to not lose to Kingambit (among many other powerful wincons in the tier but at #2 this is an especially pretty important one to prepare for) which is not the case on ladder. And yet, we still see diverse Pokémon choices and team styles in OUPL.
twenty games is a super small sample size and doesn't mean much of anything in a vacuum. there's obviously extreme variations in week to week winrate (samurott hisui with that 18% wr vs moth with 80%). Usage rate is much more important in terms of perceived viability among top players, and they clearly still think gambit is a top dog as evidenced by it being fourth overall in usage.
also ???? "Tied with Glowking, Kingambit has the lowest win rate of the top 10." did you just not read the statistics you are referencing?
I am very sorry to say this since you do sound like you have an idea of what you're talking about with other parts of your post and you're being respectful, but this is taking the piss. "Fighting type" is not a reliable Kingambit counter, half because Supreme Overlord/Swords Dance can let it blow past Dark resists, half because both of its most common Tera types resist Fighting and give it a super effective Tera Blast. Two of the three Fighting types in the tier need to bring less useful weak moves like Ice Spinner or Stone Edge in order to deal with Kingambit's Tera, and the third one cannot be a Kingambit check if it has used Tera. Will-o-Wisp leaves you extremely vulnerable to Lum Berry sets that will one-shot your user. Encore relies on being able to lock Kingambit into a mistake on reaction and is not guaranteed counterplay. Iron Defense only works if you are Zamazenta, who I've already highlighted still isn't a guaranteed check, and do not Tera out of Fighting, since even if you're at +6 Def to Kingambit's +6 Atk you can't boost to match Supreme Overlord. These options do exist and can work, but they're so fragile compared to how little work Kingambit has to do to put that pressure on you. The existence of counterplay and the ability to beat something does not mean it isn't an unhealthy and constraining preference.
Also, as other people have highlighted by now, OUPL is not exactly a large sample size. Of course it's a very high skill level one, but there are several hundred times more matches than the entirety of it being played on ladder every day, and not all of them are down in the 1200 ELO shit pits.
overpreparedbess.
baxcalibur had a low win rate before when everyone was running air balloon + steel to reliably block it from sweeping. Doesn’t mean it wasn’t too OP
I can't be the only one but please gamefreak give the musketeers sharpness as a hidden ability and some more slashing moves. How is gallade and h-samurott using their signature move better than them.
Would also be a way to differentiate them from their future paradoxes.
Would also be a way to differentiate them from their future paradoxes.
Bax is getting Ice Spinner now? Yeah non-Loaded Dice now have another option for Ice STAB instead of Icicle Spear and Ice Shard...
(They're doing event moves again?) But it only comes out on the 30th, which is after the DLC is released.
Well, he deserves to be a shitmon for being a cancerous Scald spreader. He has already been good in several Gens. I like some dominant Mons across many Gens (Zapdos, Weavile, Volcanion, non-Pursuit Tyranitar, Alolan Ninetales, etc.) but fully despise others, like Keldeo, Suicune or Heatran. If some of these lose their former glory, I hope they never recover it.
I told the same in orange island. Also, secret sword needs to be included in the list of sharpness moves
Also, paradox cobalion will be steel psychic, iron leaves is grass psychic, so if there is a paradox terrakion, it would be rock psychic which is a very bad typing.
Except Paradox Cobalion, they all have bad typing, so the base form may be better (not Virizion lol) depending on the stats and movepool. However, booster energy may make paradox better than base if there is no sharpness, you could be right.
We don't know stats and movepool of paradox cobalion (and the paradox terakion if there is one) so we'll see in 6 days.
Finally, we don't know if there will be new mons in tera raid events after dlc 2, so maybe the paradox Terrakion and Entei will be available at the same time as dlc 2, or month/weeks after, or if they will even exist lol. (It seems logical, but it's still not announced)
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Oh brother. This isn't gen 6, stop being a baby over Scald of all things
This might be an error on Serebii's end, where ice spinner is meant to be ice shard
Sadly Secret Sword isn't a cutting move
Suicune deserves to be a shitmon for once after being That Guy™ in Gen 3 OU. Not fun to play against CM suicune in that format even with multiple boomers. WHY IS IT SO FAT
this feels like a really weak defense for kingambit. of course there has been precedent for pokemon w/ high tournament winrates being broken (sneasler, roaring moon, chien-pao) but its not like pokemon with lower tournament winrates cant be a problem. someone in this thread mentioned baxcalibur during WCOP as an example earlier but gliscor also had a very inconsistent SCL winrate prior to its ban. but it was still very evidently broken and meta-warping, hence its ban. while kingambit isnt as unhealthy as gliscor was, it still does force a ton of different mindgames that are heavily in its favor, to say nothing of how its "checks" can lose outright depending on the set
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Yes but it would be good to add it to the cutting moves list.
Sacred Sword is a cutting move, but not Secret Sword, it doesn't make sense.
(The fact that a unicorn is using a sword doesn't make sens either but... pokemon logic is strange)
This requires the Kingambit user to preserve their Tera all the way until the end of the match which is increasingly becoming a much taller order than it was in pre-dlc.
Tusk can be OHKOd by +2 5 allies fainted iron head, but this is only an issue if it Teras that turn and you are unable to accurately predict this (hint: it's probably the last or second to last turn of the game) and choose your move accordingly, as sucker is a 2hko.
We are going to have to respectfully disagree on whether having to run moves that are great attacking types and form perfect offensive coverage with other types in few move slots is an undue burden when these moves are useful in many non-kingambit matchups such as vs the devils Zapdos and Dragonite. I have at least once sent out Talon, burned with Wisp, and successfully gotten the Flame Body, and people are using creative picks like Tauros to respond to Gambit. Counterplay is both diverse and splashable due to being useful in numerous other matchups. Encore is a perfectly serviceable solution depending on when you click it. What you say about Iron Defense is categorically untrue, ID Mandibuzz ALWAYS beats Kingambit, Garg is invincible at +2 but needs to come in on a revenge. Your ID user just needs to not be Corviknight, which is one of the worst Pokémon in the tier. Look at OUPL teams, these are built to withstand Kingambit, but the only aspects that seem linear or one-more about them are 1) there is no stall after gliscor's ban and 2) unhealthy amount of Rillacheap spam (which has a nearly 80% win rate by the way)
I am not saying "all ladder games are shit" but it is categorically untrue that the teams there even used by the best players are designed to be just as reliable as teams players bring to tournament
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