Nah clearly we shouldn't stabilize the tier or discuss lower tier or lesser seen mons with genuine niches, no we should go in complete circles and only discuss unbanning ubers because why not lmfao man this discussion thread is awesome!
Yeah, Genesect is something that probably shouldn't be considered for a test unless tera goes if it comes back, because tera Genesect sounds like hell to deal with.View attachment 574648 View attachment 574649
This right here has always been the problem with Genesect, not just Speed control, which btw would still be somewhat of a thing even in the scenario of it lacking E-speed, Rock Polish and Shift Gear, since Scarf + STAB U-turn will always be a fantastic combo. Hell, I could even see it running Hone Claws + Flame Charge if you really wanted to try a Sweeper set. Considering the AMAZING move coverage it has, the Download boost making it even stronger and all of the sets it could run (Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Mixed Attacker with Life Orb or HDB etc.), it ain't hard to figure out why it would still be broken. Let's also remember that Bug/Steel is one of the best defensive typings out there, being weak only to Fire, which does increase Genesect's overall longevity to a certain extent, at least compared to your average fast offensive mon. Now, if only there was some kind of mechanic added in Gen 9 to get rid of this glaring weakness while also increasing your overall damage output... oh wait, there is! And if that wasn't enough of a buff, Genesect also has Techno Blast, which might as well be a stronger Tera Blast with potential STAB. But wait, let's assume you'd wanna run Tera Blast regardless... you guys do realize that Tera Blast would continuously change from Special to Physical and viceversa because of Download, right?
Tbf, the council said we can’t do anything (or it makes zero sense to) because the thing suspected will get unbanned, so we are talking about unbanning shit because shit already is getting unbanned!!!!Nah clearly we shouldn't stabilize the tier or discuss lower tier or lesser seen mons with genuine niches, no we should go in complete circles and only discuss unbanning ubers because why not lmfao man this discussion thread is awesome!
The darkrai unban players still haven't seemed to grasp that the supposed positive qualities darkrai brings weavile brings to the table and more with actual ice stab and an equal speed tier this unban darkrai garbage is complete bull honestly every time the thread brings up unbanning an uber its complete bullshit. Stop talking about fucking darkrai and move on to the actual metagame for once
I understand this knee jerk reaction given this thread's love for going on several page tangents about dropping random things from Ubers but there's no better time than now to discuss whether Darkrai fits into OU or not given that OUPL is featuring it in the suspect games this week and next. It's a small sample size but natural that people will want to analyze the data presented to us and form hypotheses.Why are we trying to push Darkrai to OU?
I'm gonna be so mad if genesect loses his speed control bc he was a perfect slot in on my awful sneasler ubers team.Instead of talking about Darkrai, how about we talk about our favorite Bug/Steel.
Our other favorite Bug/Steel.
That's right, we should do the traditional thing and test Genesect. Unlike past tests, in SV Genesect is actually losing something - reports are that it no longer has Shift Gear, Rock Polish, or Extreme Speed. If true, that means its speed control is crippled; it can still run scarf sets, but a pivot that lacks Spikes immunity would really prefer HDB, and if you're not pivoting then Booster Valiant does the job better.
As a pivot, it's really just better Scizor, but a better version of a B- mon isn't clearly problematic. As a mixed attacker is stuffers from a poor STAB combo, but does have a solid speed tier and solid enough defenses (especially with a great defensive typing), which again isn't obviously overwhelming.
Disregard all that is if does keep its speed control moves, but without them I think Genesect would actually be viable in OU.
Forretress is definitely one of the spinners in the game.that doesnt exist even with Scizor and Genesect out of the picture lmao
Stayed in the tier on the same margin that Gliscor was banned on. What's your point here?
"same margin", if the council decided that margin was ok the result of the suspect and survey must be accepted even if gambit wasn't banned for a single voteKingambit is the exception to the efficacy of this process. Kingambit is one of a few pokemon that should have been survey banned from both voting pools instead of just qualified players.
thinking someone is pro or against a pokemon makes me laughAnyone who is pro gambit is incorrect regardless of skill level. It's genuinely ridiculous how you in particular keep beating the "GOOD PLAYERS ARE ALWAYS CORRECT AT ALL TIMES"
nothing to do with gambit, even without him tusk would be the only spinner in the tier, cind would be the only way to punish screen users in every situation and so onbecause we have and it's fucking up team diversity.
I mean.... Iron Bundle's fast Encore would be high key nice and it doesn't have a boosting move that other threats could use to spiral out of control. Maybe you're onto something here...Truly baffling defenses of darkrai in this thread. I've already gone over why dropping darkrai to OU is a terrible idea here, but perhaps a little thought exercise will help. If you want a darkrai unban, you should also be arguing for an iron bundle unban. Let's take a look at the arguments to unban darkrai and see how they overlap:
1) Guys we need another fast special attacker in the meta for speed control!
Darkrai
Iron Bundle
2) Don't worry guys its so frail anyway, zamazenta and dragapult can revenge kill! It's slower than Ival and Iron Moth!
Darkrai 70/90/90 bulk, 383 speed
Iron Bundle 56/114/60 bulk, 408 speed
3) Just use hazards, status, and positioning to limit it, no problems here folks. Did I mention CB Tera Grass Rillaboom RK's you with grassy glide?? I bet even AV Hoopa wins 1v1 bros...
Darkrai
Iron Bundle
4) It's so reliant on STAB with a weak base power, and reliant on moves that are inaccurate!
Darkrai with 80 BP Dark Pulse, Focus Blast 70% accurate, Hypnosis 60% accurate
Iron Bundle with 70 BP Freeze Dry, Hydro Pump 80% accurate
5) They still have defensive checks!! Really viable and splashable ones :D !!
Darkrai checked by Alolan-Muk, Tinkaton, and Tera
Iron Bundle checked by Slowking-Galar, Empoleon, and Tera
6) Vert said we need a fast Ice Beam mon that's good with Boots idk why tho
Darkrai
Iron Bundle
7) We need to give these mons a chance in a brand new environment! Ignore the complete mess that will be the meta please :D
Darkrai, never been OU
Iron Bundle, was only OU for around a week, Glowking+Empo weren't legal
I can count on at least 30% of you to take the complete wrong lesson and start unironically rallying for an Iron Bundle unban but man I tried.
Something something the tier is prepared for fast, strong water attackers now something something.Truly baffling defenses of darkrai in this thread. I've already gone over why dropping darkrai to OU is a terrible idea here, but perhaps a little thought exercise will help. If you want a darkrai unban, you should also be arguing for an iron bundle unban. Let's take a look at the arguments to unban darkrai and see how they overlap:
1) Guys we need another fast special attacker in the meta for speed control!
Darkrai
Iron Bundle
2) Don't worry guys its so frail anyway, zamazenta and dragapult can revenge kill! It's slower than Ival and Iron Moth!
Darkrai 70/90/90 bulk, 383 speed
Iron Bundle 56/114/60 bulk, 408 speed
3) Just use hazards, status, and positioning to limit it, no problems here folks. Did I mention CB Tera Grass Rillaboom RK's you with grassy glide?? I bet even AV Hoopa wins 1v1 bros...don't give up before adapting!!!
Darkrai
Iron Bundle
4) It's so reliant on STAB with a weak base power, and reliant on moves that are inaccurate!
Darkrai with 80 BP Dark Pulse, Focus Blast 70% accurate, Hypnosis 60% accurate
Iron Bundle with 70 BP Freeze Dry, Hydro Pump 80% accurate
5) They still have defensive checks!! Really viable and splashable ones :D !!
Darkrai checked by Alolan-Muk, Tinkaton, and Tera
Iron Bundle checked by Slowking-Galar, Empoleon, and Tera
6) Vert said we need a fast Ice Beam mon that's good with Boots idk why tho
Darkrai
Iron Bundle
7) We need to give these mons a chance in a brand new environment! Ignore the complete mess that will be the meta please :D
Darkrai, never been OU
Iron Bundle, was only OU for around a week, Glowking+Empo weren't legal
I can count on at least 30% of you to take the complete wrong lesson and start unironically rallying for an Iron Bundle unban but man I tried.
Perhaps my post concluded on a note that favored darkrai a bit much given the tiny sample size, however, specifically taking the tapus (which up to 2-3 of will be extremely powerful with Tera and 3 are likely to drastically change the metagame) into account, I genuinely believe OU will be something completely different come December 14 - my opinion overall given that a lot of rapid tiering action is already possible and a "soft reset" is all but confirmed is that adding Darkrai into that pot is something I just don't see much harm in. It's very possible you're right (and you often are) - I have confidence the council will do what's necessary if you are. It is possible we see another "Magearna banned, Chien Pao remains" and it probably will be annoying to wait through that period if it exists however so I get where you're coming from in that regardTruly baffling defenses of darkrai in this thread. I've already gone over why dropping darkrai to OU is a terrible idea here, but perhaps a little thought exercise will help. If you want a darkrai unban, you should also be arguing for an iron bundle unban. Let's take a look at the arguments to unban darkrai and see how they overlap:
1) Guys we need another fast special attacker in the meta for speed control!
Darkrai
Iron Bundle
2) Don't worry guys its so frail anyway, zamazenta and dragapult can revenge kill! It's slower than Ival and Iron Moth!
Darkrai 70/90/90 bulk, 383 speed
Iron Bundle 56/114/60 bulk, 408 speed
3) Just use hazards, status, and positioning to limit it, no problems here folks. Did I mention CB Tera Grass Rillaboom RK's you with grassy glide?? I bet even AV Hoopa wins 1v1 bros...don't give up before adapting!!!
Darkrai
Iron Bundle
4) It's so reliant on STAB with a weak base power, and reliant on moves that are inaccurate!
Darkrai with 80 BP Dark Pulse, Focus Blast 70% accurate, Hypnosis 60% accurate
Iron Bundle with 70 BP Freeze Dry, Hydro Pump 80% accurate
5) They still have defensive checks!! Really viable and splashable ones :D !!
Darkrai checked by Alolan-Muk, Tinkaton, and Tera
Iron Bundle checked by Slowking-Galar, Empoleon, and Tera
6) Vert said we need a fast Ice Beam mon that's good with Boots idk why tho
Darkrai
Iron Bundle
7) We need to give these mons a chance in a brand new environment! Ignore the complete mess that will be the meta please :D
Darkrai, never been OU
Iron Bundle, was only OU for around a week, Glowking+Empo weren't legal
I can count on at least 30% of you to take the complete wrong lesson and start unironically rallying for an Iron Bundle unban but man I tried.
The comparison is extremely flawed as it glosses over the fact that Iron Bundle is was better than Darkrai in most scenarios. It's way faster, has Quark Drive, Dual STAB, has better natural coverage in Water + Freeze-Dry. It also hits neutral targets way harder too.Truly baffling defenses of darkrai in this thread. I've already gone over why dropping darkrai to OU is a terrible idea here, but perhaps a little thought exercise will help. If you want a darkrai unban, you should also be arguing for an iron bundle unban. Let's take a look at the arguments to unban darkrai and see how they overlap:
1) Guys we need another fast special attacker in the meta for speed control!
Darkrai
Iron Bundle
2) Don't worry guys its so frail anyway, zamazenta and dragapult can revenge kill! It's slower than Ival and Iron Moth!
Darkrai 70/90/90 bulk, 383 speed
Iron Bundle 56/114/60 bulk, 408 speed
3) Just use hazards, status, and positioning to limit it, no problems here folks. Did I mention CB Tera Grass Rillaboom RK's you with grassy glide?? I bet even AV Hoopa wins 1v1 bros...don't give up before adapting!!!
Darkrai
Iron Bundle
4) It's so reliant on STAB with a weak base power, and reliant on moves that are inaccurate!
Darkrai with 80 BP Dark Pulse, Focus Blast 70% accurate, Hypnosis 60% accurate
Iron Bundle with 70 BP Freeze Dry, Hydro Pump 80% accurate
5) They still have defensive checks!! Really viable and splashable ones :D Guys did you uuh try adapting??
Darkrai checked by Alolan-Muk, Tinkaton, and Tera
Iron Bundle checked by Slowking-Galar, Empoleon, and Tera
6) Vert said we need a fast Ice Beam mon that's good with Boots idk why tho
Darkrai
Iron Bundle
7) We need to give these mons a chance in a brand new environment! Ignore the complete mess that will be the meta please :D
Darkrai, never been OU
Iron Bundle, was only OU for around a week, Glowking+Empo weren't legal
I can count on at least 30% of you to take the complete wrong lesson and start unironically rallying for an Iron Bundle unban but man I tried.
Hydro Pump only has 8 pp, is 80 % accurate, and is letting in one of the most dangerous mons in the meta for free (Waterpon). Meanwhile Dark Pulse has 24 pp, no immunities, and a 20% flinch chance, I think the difference in STAB moves here is smaller than you're letting on.The comparison is extremely flawed as it glosses over the fact that Iron Bundle is was better than Darkrai in most scenarios. It's way faster, has Quark Drive, Dual STAB, has better natural coverage in Water + Freeze-Dry. It also hits neutral targets way harder too.
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 153-180 (23.4 - 27.6%) -- 75% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 118-139 (18 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO
(Highest roll for Darkrai is still lower than lowest roll for Iron Bundle).
Fact that Iron Bundle has Quark Drive and Darkrai doesn't is probably the biggest difference. Slap on Booster Energy and Iron Bundle outspeed the even fast Scarfers while also having the freedom to switch its moves around. Switching between moves that have perfect coverage. If Darkrai wants to outspeed the entire metagame like that, it has to use Choice Scarf and has to decide on what coverage move it has to use as well. Doing so also makes Darkrai much easier to wall too, since it's firepower isn't impressive.
Darkrai is a sweeper and wallbreaker, not dedicated speed control. Iron Bundle can't match the power of Nasty Plot Darkrai, and Darkrai isn't reliant on 70% accurate water move for damage. Tera Poison Darkrai can 2hko virtually all dedicated walls, and is almost impossible to take down without revenge killing with priority (which applies to Iron Bundle too, btw)The comparison is extremely flawed as it glosses over the fact that Iron Bundle is was better than Darkrai in most scenarios. It's way faster, has Quark Drive, Dual STAB, has better natural coverage in Water + Freeze-Dry. It also hits neutral targets way harder too.
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 153-180 (23.4 - 27.6%) -- 75% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 118-139 (18 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO
(Highest roll for Darkrai is still lower than lowest roll for Iron Bundle).
Fact that Iron Bundle has Quark Drive and Darkrai doesn't is probably the biggest difference. Slap on Booster Energy and Iron Bundle outspeed the even fast Scarfers while also having the freedom to switch its moves around. Switching between moves that have perfect coverage. If Darkrai wants to outspeed the entire metagame like that, it has to use Choice Scarf and has to decide on what coverage move it has to use as well. Doing so also makes Darkrai much easier to wall too, since it's firepower isn't impressive.
What are your thoughts on the replays that Nines provided that started this whole Darkrai debate?Truly baffling defenses of darkrai in this thread. I've already gone over why dropping darkrai to OU is a terrible idea here, but perhaps a little thought exercise will help. If you want a darkrai unban, you should also be arguing for an iron bundle unban. Let's take a look at the arguments to unban darkrai and see how they overlap:
1) Guys we need another fast special attacker in the meta for speed control!
Darkrai
Iron Bundle
2) Don't worry guys its so frail anyway, zamazenta and dragapult can revenge kill! It's slower than Ival and Iron Moth!
Darkrai 70/90/90 bulk, 383 speed
Iron Bundle 56/114/60 bulk, 408 speed
3) Just use hazards, status, and positioning to limit it, no problems here folks. Did I mention CB Tera Grass Rillaboom RK's you with grassy glide?? I bet even AV Hoopa wins 1v1 bros...don't give up before adapting!!!
Darkrai
Iron Bundle
4) It's so reliant on STAB with a weak base power, and reliant on moves that are inaccurate!
Darkrai with 80 BP Dark Pulse, Focus Blast 70% accurate, Hypnosis 60% accurate
Iron Bundle with 70 BP Freeze Dry, Hydro Pump 80% accurate
5) They still have defensive checks!! Really viable and splashable ones :D Guys did you uuh try adapting??
Darkrai checked by Alolan-Muk, Tinkaton, and Tera
Iron Bundle checked by Slowking-Galar, Empoleon, and Tera
6) Vert said we need a fast Ice Beam mon that's good with Boots idk why tho
Darkrai
Iron Bundle
7) We need to give these mons a chance in a brand new environment! Ignore the complete mess that will be the meta please :D
Darkrai, never been OU
Iron Bundle, was only OU for around a week, Glowking+Empo weren't legal
I can count on at least 30% of you to learn the complete wrong lesson and start unironically rallying for an Iron Bundle unban but man I tried.
And I thought 50 pages of people suddenly rushing to the defensive of Volcarona was bad…
Ok, but it needs life orb for these calcs to work. In the most hazard heavy metagame in history, lifeorb is the least viable It’s been in generations. Taking 30%+ from switching in and firing off one attack is not good, and will leave darkrai incredibly vulnerable to revenge killing. It also needs to be able to survive all of that chip and OHKO whatever is in front of it, because even though it has decent bulk for a sweeper, it is going to take a ton of chip with this set, and it can’t afford to switch out and take even more hazard damage later. Lifeorb darkrai honestly seems like it would actually be subpar in OU right now. Specs is better but insanely prediction reliant and can’t use NP. Boots is also better but Darkrai really misses having the immediate power, as dark pulse really needs to be boosted to become threatening.Darkrai is a sweeper and wallbreaker, not dedicated speed control. Iron Bundle can't match the power of Nasty Plot Darkrai, and Darkrai isn't reliant on 70% accurate water move for damage. Tera Poison Darkrai can 2hko virtually all dedicated walls, and is almost impossible to take down without revenge killing with priority (which applies to Iron Bundle too, btw)
Here are some calcs for
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 153-180 (23.4 - 27.6%) -- 75% chance to 4HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 204-242 (31.2 - 37.1%) -- 78% chance to 3HKO
Except, Darkrai can also flinch opponent with Dark Pulse. Which means that accounting for lower damage and poor accuracy, Bundle might fail to KO Blissey even after 5th move. While Darkai has potential to get close to 2hko range with just 1 flinch. And Blissey is the bulkiest neutral wall for Darkrai in the whole game (this is without accounting Tera for Darkrai)
Darkrai needs just 1 turn to sweep. Unlike Bundle, who's much weaker without Nasty Plot, Darkrai doesn't need to go in and out 100 times using flip turn. 1 Nasty Plot is more than good enough for the entire game, as there's no wall that can avoid 2hko (and the ones that do avoid 2hko, get flinched to death as they spam recover, or are too passive to threaten it anyway).Ok, but it needs life orb for these calcs to work. In the most hazard heavy metagame in history, lifeorb is the least viable It’s been in generations. Taking 30%+ from switching in and firing off one attack is not good, and will leave darkrai incredibly vulnerable to revenge killing. It also needs to be able to survive all of that chip and OHKO whatever is in front of it, because even though it has decent bulk for a sweeper, it is going to take a ton of chip with this set, and it can’t afford to switch out and take even more hazard damage later. Lifeorb darkrai honestly seems like it would actually be subpar in OU right now. Specs is better but insanely prediction reliant and can’t use NP. Boots is also better but Darkrai really misses having the immediate power, as dark pulse really needs to be boosted to become threatening.
We should unban Volcarona.And I thought 50 pages of people suddenly rushing to the defensive of Volcarona was bad…