BST doesn't mean anything. I literally agree that Zamazenta probably shouldn't be in OU but 700 BST doesn't mean anything. Regigias sucks shit and has a BST of 670, meanwhile Clodsire is amazing and has a BST of 430. Zamazenta is busted because it's the rare fast defensive pokemon, and while yes it's definitely fine to have in OU for now, when and if Iron Valiant gets banned, Zamazenta will lack a truly reliable check outside of stallmons like toxapex and donbozo. If Kingambit is only ok to have in OU because Zamazenta is in OU, ban both. Same goes for Sneasler (who needs to go anyway) and Iron Valiant (who is the only problematic booster energy user in the tier).
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
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Aight these are my thoughts after playing for a couple of days on high ladder following Gliscor's ban (currently at 1880 Elo, 82.8% GXE), with the most problematic mons on top:
To address the extremely idiotic KyuB comparison, that mon did not have a reliable Ice STAB move to threaten the meta, it did not have 138 base Speed, it did not have Dauntless Shield as an ability and it did not have a set up move that allowed it to sweep entire teams (and when it did, it got banned).
Still, I wanna be very clear that these are only my thoughts, and I respect both pika pal's and 658Greninja's opinion. I am in fact very happy with their responses since they are a start for some kind of debate, and I'm always open to change my stance.
- I think the resenment regarding this mon has begun spreading quite rapidly in the last week, and I don't need to address it any further. Rilla+Sneasler is one of the most common cores right now, and it is clearly too overwhelming for the tier. The only "solid" checks to this strat are Zaptres, Dengo and Dondozo, but the former two get destroyed by Shadow Claw + Gunk Shot, while the latter gets dealt with Rillaboom itself. Immediate action is needed for this mon IMO, and I wouldn't mind if it got QBd in the coming days.
- We all knew that Dengo should have been addressed at some point, and I think that we've waited enough. While the Gliscor ban did provide some breathing room for Hazard control, there is still an obvious problem with Hstack strats which are now centered around HO teams with Samurott-H (once again) instead of being focused on Balance and Stall teams with Gliscor. This mon is the sole reason for the disappearance of Defog in OU, and as long as it stays in the tier even Rapid Spin (aka Great Tusk, let's be honest) won't be enough of a solution (despite Tusk now being able to run Knock Off instead of Ice Spinner). We should sustest Dengo asap.
- I may be pessimistic but I think that once Dengo goes this thing is gonna go on a rampage, and it's gonna become clear very soon how broken it is. Valiant has been on the radar since the start of the gen, but the reason why it has never been addressed is ultimately because we've had plenty more broken mons in the tier. As I've said in other posts, Gholdengo is one of the premier checks to it, simply because its presence is enough of a deterrent for certain sets: CM Valiant wouldn't need to run Shadow Ball or Tera Electric Thunderbolt to deal with it, and could instead opt for Psyshock, Taunt or even Vacum Wave for priority. We also have a considerable amount of sets that get hard checked by Dengo's Good as Gold, and I could see sets that run Encore, Trick+Choice and T-wave rising in popularity after Dengo leaves OU.
- This mon is stupid and it always has been. Once again this is a clear case of "broken checks broken", and the only reason why it hasn't been banned before is because it was one of the best answers for some of the previous (and current) broken mons, such as Espathra, Bax, Moon, Dragapult, Gholdengo and literally every other fast sweeper. Gambit forces an insane amount of unhealthy mind games, 50/50s and reverse sweeps thanks to Supreme Overlord and Sucker Punch, and while it does prevent some problematic mons from going overboard, it also completely stomps over any mon that doesn't resist its priority, and most of those die regardless due to its insane Attack. Also, this mon is one of the best abusers of Tera ever, making it even harder to check. How many more Tusks will have to perish to Terablast Fairy and Flying? How many more attempted burns will end up failing because of Tera Fire?
- Take Heart, Acid Armor, Tail Glow, Stored Power, Tera to make it unkillable and add a lil touch of Aurora Veil as well just to spite. And god forbid that Scald burns during a crucial turn. Manaphy has no place in a competitive setting.
- See my post above, but I will address some points made in support of this mon:
All of the mons you have provided here are arguable "broken checks broken" cases, which do not make a compelling argument for the balance of Zamazenta in OU. You also really downplayed its stats, considering that Zama isn't simply a "speedy mon", but rather the second fastest mon in the meta after Pult (I refuse to even consider Electrode), and it doesn't just have a "good bulk", considering that it puts to shame even the most bulky walls in the tier with its 92/115/115 spread, without even taking into account the Def boost that its ability provides, basically turning its 115 base Defense into a 180.
Yes, threatens its Sub with T-wave. Unfortunately every time you try to switch Gholdengo in, the Sub sets do in fact click Substitute, and all of your status moves end up in the shitter. The Choice Band set, on the other hand, cleanly 2HKOs max Def Dengo even with Lefties, so good luck trying to switch into it, once again.
Pex aside, which is an obvious pick alongisde Dondozo, how are you gonna predict which set is Zama running? Cause it's not like it runs only one set, it has 3 extremely good ones with Banded, Sub and HDB. Mola and Amoonguss both get fucked by the Sub+ID set (Amoonguss can run any move it wants but it ain't breaking the Sub with less than two hits, and if Zama Teras into a Steel type it's over). Clef gets stomped by 2 out of 3 sets, those being the Banded set and the HDB one, both of which commonly run Heavy Slam. Physically defensive Zapdos takes 70% minimum from Stone Edge, and it gets OHKOd if its an offensive set. Hurricane doesn't even kill Zama if Zapdos is defensive, and hoping for a para is ridiculous.
None of which are even remotely common picks in OU, with the exception of Skeledirge, and all of which get 2HKOd by Banded Crunch funnily enough.
To address the extremely idiotic KyuB comparison, that mon did not have a reliable Ice STAB move to threaten the meta, it did not have 138 base Speed, it did not have Dauntless Shield as an ability and it did not have a set up move that allowed it to sweep entire teams (and when it did, it got banned).
Still, I wanna be very clear that these are only my thoughts, and I respect both pika pal's and 658Greninja's opinion. I am in fact very happy with their responses since they are a start for some kind of debate, and I'm always open to change my stance.
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Soiramio3000
Banned deucer.
Really, that's cool.
I was expecting that we would immediately go from one ban to the next ban.
I doubt if we will manage to vote for every single controversial pokemon before the next dlc comes out(release date is december 14).
I would argue that Zaptres doesn't even reliably deal with Sneasler, and I don't even mean running gunk shot, though you definitely could.Aight these are my thoughts after playing for a couple of days on high ladder following Gliscor's ban (currently at 1880 Elo, 82.8% GXE), with the most problematic mons on top:
Zapdos needs 2 of these 3 conditions to beat sneasler:
1. It comes in at full health (+2 252+ Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 219-258 (57 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
2. Static Procs
3. It predicts correctly on the first possible turn whether sneasler clicks tera or not and picks the correct move to kill it, and on top of that, if sneasler doesn't tera, it needs to hit a hurricane.
Moltres is even less reliable because it doesn't resist Acrobatics and needs to actually come in at full health to avoid an ohko. Flame Body isn't reliable despite ladder RNG saying otherwise, and wisp can miss (but not if my opponent is using it). Sneasler is obscene for quite a few reasons, but it's one of the few "Pick your own checks" pokemon in the game's history.
If a Pokemon can bring positive contributions to the tier rather than negatives, then testing them to be allowed in the Meta isn't any less reasonable a prospect than Suspecting Pokemon that are possibly but not consensus-deemed Broken yet. This is probably especially valuable in a Meta like Gen 9 has produced where so many Pokemon are extremely powerful that tiering action against individual members might not produce positive effects quickly, but adding offensive/defensive Glue Pokemon could ease teambuilding such that it's less of a strain to build against them both directly (using Zama yourself to stomp HO) or indirectly (HO teams that run anti-Zam measures might not be as hard to stop against your no-Zama team where they'd want other plays). None of this is arguing this is definitively what resulted from Zamazenta-H in OU, but it is the philosophy and argument behind why things can be tested to drop even while there are things people want to remove.
This is an entirely reasonable take, and I don't have a major horse in whether Zamazenta stays OU or goes back to Ubers, I just disagreed heavily with the manner of argumentation. This post makes a better point because it is arguing about what Zama does overall between its set variety (the speed for example lets it run more varied sets than Kyub) and lack of checks, and Zygarde reaffirms the point that its an overall kit that makes a Pokemon busted since Zygarde-50% definitely doesn't have any trait that is singularly-OP about it.
I will say on the last point that Zama might be too straining to counterplay, but a lack of a universal check/counter is not strictly a death knell for an offensive mon, as it could be argued this was the case for something like Gen 5 Hydregion, which always had SOMETHING that would stop it but a movepool and boosting/coverage that made it impossible for one thing to stop all its options.
(Sorry this one came through a bit late, my connection dropped for a while and evidently a lot of follow up discussion happened in the interrim)
Does the council vote on all mons on the survey, that feels weird if they don’t.
for no one liner: Zama’s ban reasoning should not be “oh nooooooo it has 700 BST” like at all, nor should it especially be “it keeps current “broken” OU mons in checkkkkkk” Like. What. Ban GSC Snorlax then lmaooooo
for no one liner: Zama’s ban reasoning should not be “oh nooooooo it has 700 BST” like at all, nor should it especially be “it keeps current “broken” OU mons in checkkkkkk” Like. What. Ban GSC Snorlax then lmaooooo
Coming from someone who was around when gen 7 was current gen, Zygarde-50% on paper doesn't have any trait that is singularly-op about it, but that falls apart when you actually look at what thousand arrows does. The only thing that changed for Z50 between XY and SM is thousand arrows, and Zygarde is UUBL in gen 6. Thousand Arrows being a ground move that hits flying types and levitators means that Zygarde is effectively unwallable and applies immense pressure even in the back, and this was in a generation with hidden power. I doubt Zygarde would be banned from SM OU, or even that good in the tier, without thousand arrows. Zygarde-10% also has thousand arrows, but 1 OP move does not a good pokemon make, as Z10 has pitiful bulk which, while made up for with an amazing speed tier, is also combined with the same mediocre attack stat of base 100. Despite this, Z10 has an OU niche almost exclusively because of how amazing of a move thousand arrows is.
If thats the case, we need to get gholdengo the hell out so post dlc 1 ou can have a brief period of peace before the final storm
To be clear I think you and I are arguing the same point: No singular trait of Zygarde-50%, not even Thousand Arrows, is enough to make something stand out in OU. Thousand Arrows was basically the last piece its toolbox was missing to make a cohesive whole, much like Kyurem-B getting Icicle Spear to tie its stats, offensive typing, and ability together.
I'm mostly pointing to these mons not to say Zamazenta is definitely fine in OU, so much as to say "we have had high BST mons be okay and then not in OU, it's more productive to argue along the lines they became Overpowered for rather than just the number" (especially since some posts were citing Zama's 700 Crowned BST instead of the 660 of Hero)
We survived the Smogpocalypse. Can't wait to go back to all the metagame discussion talk again...
No but thousand arrows is uniquely overpowered and enough to stand out in OU, considering it's the move that gives Zygarde-10% a niche in OU despite the middling attack stat and no bulk. Zygarde had a unique move in XY, but it was an objectively worse earthquake that's not worth considering. Thousand Arrows, though sharing the same power as land's wrath, has a unique effect that's so insanely cracked that Garchomp would probably be banworthy if you gave it to him. Thousand Arrows is the OP puzzle piece that an otherwise mid pokemon was missing. I get what you're saying but I disagree entirely
First of all, he's a french fry. Second of all, you're absolutely correct and honestly, he should have been tested before Gliscor
Zamazenta is a Pokemon that commands my respect whenever it hits the field, but on the team builder either due to ladder not catching on to its value or just running into a suboptimal set, my team somehow ends up checking it without meaning to without even accounting for it.
So yeah, I think she's a strong Pokemon but not necessarily a ban worthy threat.
Haven't had the time to try playing in the post Gliscor ladder, but I'll report on my findings on the 1100s ladder later this week.
So yeah, I think she's a strong Pokemon but not necessarily a ban worthy threat.
Haven't had the time to try playing in the post Gliscor ladder, but I'll report on my findings on the 1100s ladder later this week.
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I disagree honestly. The problems with Gliscor hazard stack were only exacerbated by Gholdengo completely stifling hazard removal. With 3.5 hazard removers in the tier and only one that doesn't care about Ghold, being cinderace, who's form of hazard control also falls apart if you set hazards as well, Gliscor teams effectively had uncontested control of the hazard game. I'm not saying to not test Gliscor, because Gliscor was definitely worth looking at, but it should have happened after a Gholdengo suspect/ban. Also it's a funny coincidence that Gliscor was banned on the same margin that allowed Kingambit to stay in the tier
Okay so I wasn't the only one having problems with accessing smogon, to prevent this from being just a oneliner-
In other terms, Test and ban Gholdengo, he puts too much of a restrain on the meta.
This, Ghold should've been tested first, sure hazard stack teams became more annoying with Gliscor around, but they were always annoying, just not to this extent. Furthermore, people who say that "The only major pokemon with hazard removal that Ghold blocks is Corv" are wrong, Ghold blocks ALL FORMS OF HAZARD REMOVAL, Cinderace doesn't count. In fact, the only reason people run Cinderace is just so they can click Court change and move hazards off their side. Ghold in a vacuum isn't overpowered or overbearing, but the effects of its ability Good As Gold warp the meta in how it blocks any kind of removal.
In other terms, Test and ban Gholdengo, he puts too much of a restrain on the meta.
gliscor ban was so incorrect it broke smogon dot com forward slash forums
The only hazard remover that Ghold doesn't block is AV Iron Treads, who sucks outside of spinning on Ghold. And for the record, Ghold wasn't really banworthy at all until h-sam dropped and suddenly spikes were more accessible than stealth rockers in DPP. If we put Gholdengo in a gen that doesn't have HDB (let's say Gen 7), it probably would have been banned because of how overbearing it is despite the existence of lando-t, because lando-t will take chip and fall into range of a gholdengo attack at some point, combined with an offensive presence that can make your otherwise safe special walls just setup fodder or in need of a trip to the optometrist. Pre H-Sam Gen 9 OU was the perfect storm of "Ghold is perfectly fine here and the only people complaining are stall players" but as soon as we got a move that set hazards on a good pokemon, Gholdengo started to become overbearing. And at this point I don't think banning h-sam would be the move because hazard stack was already becoming an issue pre h-sam, it was just more manageable due to the more limited dex. Gholdengo needs to gholdenGO
we're so back
IMO, Zamazenta feels both underpowered and overpowered at the same time. Like in some games I just sweep the entire opposing team and they are unable to deal damage above 10% and I'm like "Why the fuck is this in the tier", and in others it gets in, is forced out by a strong special move (mostly hurricane) before I'm able to set up, can't get going, and I have to ultimately sack it. My experiences with Zamazenta have been wierd.
Also anyone saying that Zamazenta's only true check is Iron valiant, say hello to Tera Steel Heavy slam while they Moonblast into a newly resisted move.
Also anyone saying that Zamazenta's only true check is Iron valiant, say hello to Tera Steel Heavy slam while they Moonblast into a newly resisted move.
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