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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
- Status
tbf this isn't exclusive to suspects, stall is just annoying and boring as shit to play against. god forbid they have 3 regenerator mons with taunt on their team
Hey everyone - the meta has been wild as of late and, as a result, the long-form (5k+ words) analysis pieces I've been working on I've had to hold off on posting because things are just too unstable right now (Mightyena will likely have to wait until we find out whether Gliscor/Gholdengo will be getting the boot); so in the meantime, I'd like to make a quick small post about a Pokemon I've been having quite a bit of success with lately - Mamoswine.
Mamoswine has been one of my favorite Pokemon to use recently for three reasons - its offensive STAB combination is one of the best, if not arguably one of the best type combinations currently in OU, utilizing Tera to circumvent its defensive issues, and its newfound access to Trailblaze. One of Mamoswine's biggest issues beyond its defensive profile was its middling at best base 80 speed (Jolly 252 caps out at 284 speed), but with Trailblaze that's no longer anywhere near as much of a problem as it was before. With a 252 Spe and a neutral nature, +1 Mamoswine reaches 388 - outspeeding deadly threats like neutral 252 Dragapult, Ribombee, Greninja, Meowscarada, neutral 252 Zamazenta, Tornadus-T, Sneasler, Cinderace, etc. (Jolly +1 reaches 426, but I've found the threats this outspeeds aren't worth the power trade-off that Adamant brings). Being able to threaten Gholdengo, Gliscor, Manaphy, Kingambit, and a bunch of other powerful threats in a single slot is insane. Mamoswine also now gets a defense boost in the snow, so Mamoswine works wonderfully on Ninetales-A screens teams.
Most of the time, you're going to want to click Trailblaze first with Mamoswine - this is to prevent Ground-immune Pokemon from gaining a free switch and to break things like Focus Sash or Gholdengo's Air Balloon while also boosting Mamoswine's speed. This chip damage + Mamoswine's new speed tier mean that former checks/counters to Mamo can become fodder quite easily. Tera Dark is to boost the power of Knock Off and also gives Mamoswine resistances to critical moves like Sucker Punch, Shadow Ball, Kowtow Cleave, Shadow Sneak, Ceaseless Edge, and more. Tera Dark additionally gives Mamoswine a situational immunity to Prankster moves. With Thick Fat, Mamoswine now gains a resistance to Fire-type attacks instead of just being neutral. Additionally, Mamoswine's newfound Dark-type grants it immunity to Psychic moves, resistances to Ghost/Dark moves as mentioned above, along with losing crippling weaknesses to Steel, Water, and Grass-type attacks.
Mamoswine
Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Ability: Thick Fat
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Trailblaze
Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Ability: Thick Fat
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Trailblaze
Mamoswine has been one of my favorite Pokemon to use recently for three reasons - its offensive STAB combination is one of the best, if not arguably one of the best type combinations currently in OU, utilizing Tera to circumvent its defensive issues, and its newfound access to Trailblaze. One of Mamoswine's biggest issues beyond its defensive profile was its middling at best base 80 speed (Jolly 252 caps out at 284 speed), but with Trailblaze that's no longer anywhere near as much of a problem as it was before. With a 252 Spe and a neutral nature, +1 Mamoswine reaches 388 - outspeeding deadly threats like neutral 252 Dragapult, Ribombee, Greninja, Meowscarada, neutral 252 Zamazenta, Tornadus-T, Sneasler, Cinderace, etc. (Jolly +1 reaches 426, but I've found the threats this outspeeds aren't worth the power trade-off that Adamant brings). Being able to threaten Gholdengo, Gliscor, Manaphy, Kingambit, and a bunch of other powerful threats in a single slot is insane. Mamoswine also now gets a defense boost in the snow, so Mamoswine works wonderfully on Ninetales-A screens teams.
Mamoswine's STAB combination alone hits the following OU/BL Pokemon super effectively:
Earthquake - Ceruledge, Cinderace, Garganacl, Gholdengo, Glimmora (4x), Heatran (4x), Iron Moth (4x), Kingambit, Slowking-Galar, Sneasler, Toxapex.
Icicle Crash - Dragapult, Dragonite (4x), Enamorus, Garchomp (4x), Gliscor (4x), Great Tusk, Kommo-o, Landorus-Therian (4x), Ogerpon-Cornerstone, Rillaboom, Ting-Lu, Zapdos
For reference, out of the 38 Pokemon total in OU/BL, 23 are hit super effectively. Over half of the OU meta (a little over 60%) is hit super effectively by the combination of STAB Earthquake and STAB Icicle Crash.
Earthquake - Ceruledge, Cinderace, Garganacl, Gholdengo, Glimmora (4x), Heatran (4x), Iron Moth (4x), Kingambit, Slowking-Galar, Sneasler, Toxapex.
Icicle Crash - Dragapult, Dragonite (4x), Enamorus, Garchomp (4x), Gliscor (4x), Great Tusk, Kommo-o, Landorus-Therian (4x), Ogerpon-Cornerstone, Rillaboom, Ting-Lu, Zapdos
For reference, out of the 38 Pokemon total in OU/BL, 23 are hit super effectively. Over half of the OU meta (a little over 60%) is hit super effectively by the combination of STAB Earthquake and STAB Icicle Crash.
Most of the time, you're going to want to click Trailblaze first with Mamoswine - this is to prevent Ground-immune Pokemon from gaining a free switch and to break things like Focus Sash or Gholdengo's Air Balloon while also boosting Mamoswine's speed. This chip damage + Mamoswine's new speed tier mean that former checks/counters to Mamo can become fodder quite easily. Tera Dark is to boost the power of Knock Off and also gives Mamoswine resistances to critical moves like Sucker Punch, Shadow Ball, Kowtow Cleave, Shadow Sneak, Ceaseless Edge, and more. Tera Dark additionally gives Mamoswine a situational immunity to Prankster moves. With Thick Fat, Mamoswine now gains a resistance to Fire-type attacks instead of just being neutral. Additionally, Mamoswine's newfound Dark-type grants it immunity to Psychic moves, resistances to Ghost/Dark moves as mentioned above, along with losing crippling weaknesses to Steel, Water, and Grass-type attacks.
So what kind of damage can Mamoswine pull off? Let's take a look at some quick calculations -
What about Pokemon that are neutral to Mamoswine's STAB combination (given that not a single Pokemon in OU actually resists both Earthquake and Icicle Crash), let's take a look at those as well.
Mamoswine does have some additional movepool options worth noting - Iron Head smacks Pokemon like Clefable, Enamorus, Hatterene, Iron Valiant, Ninetales-A (4x), and Ribombee for super effective damage. Body Press is interesting, and Rock Slide/Stone Edge can be situationally useful. Mamoswine additionally has STAB Priority in the form of Ice Shard and can also set Stealth Rocks up on the field. Mamoswine isn't the catch-all threat-stopper one would expect, but the unique combination of threats Mamoswine checks or counters thanks to its monstrous attack stat, and its fantastic STAB-type combination along with its new moves and toolset is worth looking into.
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ceruledge: 562-663 (158.7 - 187.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 593-697 (166.1 - 195.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Garganacl: 101-120 (25 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Garganacl: 299-354 (74 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then EQ unless they use Tera Water)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garganacl: 125-148 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garganacl: 374-439 (92.5 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then EQ unless they use Tera Water)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 29-35 (7.6 - 9.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 351-413 (92.8 - 109.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze chip, then EQ)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Glimmora: 1014-1201 (330.2 - 391.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 879-1045 (227.7 - 270.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 1175-1388 (390.3 - 461.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 32-39 (8 - 9.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 398-471 (99.5 - 117.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze chip, then EQ)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking-Galar: 32-39 (8.1 - 9.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking-Galar: 390-460 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze chip, then EQ)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasler: 702-827 (233.2 - 274.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 44-52 (14.4 - 17.1%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 260-307 (85.5 - 100.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze chip, then EQ)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 593-697 (166.1 - 195.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Garganacl: 101-120 (25 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Garganacl: 299-354 (74 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then EQ unless they use Tera Water)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garganacl: 125-148 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garganacl: 374-439 (92.5 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then EQ unless they use Tera Water)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 29-35 (7.6 - 9.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 351-413 (92.8 - 109.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze chip, then EQ)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Glimmora: 1014-1201 (330.2 - 391.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 879-1045 (227.7 - 270.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 1175-1388 (390.3 - 461.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 32-39 (8 - 9.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 398-471 (99.5 - 117.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze chip, then EQ)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking-Galar: 32-39 (8.1 - 9.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking-Galar: 390-460 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze chip, then EQ)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasler: 702-827 (233.2 - 274.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 44-52 (14.4 - 17.1%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 260-307 (85.5 - 100.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze chip, then EQ)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 507-595 (133.4 - 156.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 416-491 (115.8 - 136.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 530-627 (183.3 - 216.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 832-983 (198 - 234%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 489-582 (138.9 - 165.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 125-148 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 1.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 315-374 (72.5 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then IC)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 32-39 (8 - 9.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 338-400 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
(Chance to OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then IC)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 330-390 (113.4 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 614-723 (160.7 - 189.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 411-489 (107.5 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Cornerstone: 460-541 (152.8 - 179.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Rillaboom: 437-515 (111.4 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Ting-Lu: 130-153 (26.8 - 31.5%) -- 21.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Ting-Lu: 330-390 (68 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then IC)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 130-153 (25.2 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 330-390 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Chance to OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then IC)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 406-478 (105.7 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 416-491 (115.8 - 136.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 530-627 (183.3 - 216.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 832-983 (198 - 234%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 489-582 (138.9 - 165.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 125-148 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 1.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 315-374 (72.5 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then IC)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 32-39 (8 - 9.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 338-400 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
(Chance to OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then IC)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 330-390 (113.4 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 614-723 (160.7 - 189.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 411-489 (107.5 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Cornerstone: 460-541 (152.8 - 179.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Rillaboom: 437-515 (111.4 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Ting-Lu: 130-153 (26.8 - 31.5%) -- 21.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Ting-Lu: 330-390 (68 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then IC)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 130-153 (25.2 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 330-390 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Chance to OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then IC)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 406-478 (105.7 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
What about Pokemon that are neutral to Mamoswine's STAB combination (given that not a single Pokemon in OU actually resists both Earthquake and Icicle Crash), let's take a look at those as well.
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 133-156 (24.9 - 29.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 195-230 (36.5 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 155-183 (23.7 - 28%) -- 91.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 464-546 (71.1 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then EQ)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 69-82 (17.5 - 20.8%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 207-243 (52.5 - 61.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 138-164 (27.3 - 32.5%) -- 61.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 207-243 (41 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 101-122 (20 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 153-181 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- 39.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 218-257 (76.4 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 324-382 (113.6 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 61-73 (19.1 - 22.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 181-214 (56.9 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 86-101 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- 13.5% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 255-302 (88.2 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then EQ)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 156-185 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 231-274 (67.7 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then EQ)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Ninetales-Alola in Snow: 66-78 (18.9 - 22.3%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Ninetales-Alola in Snow: 196-231 (56.1 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Samurott-Hisui: 190-224 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Samurott-Hisui: 281-331 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then IC. Additionally, you could just Trailblaze a second time to outspeed even more threats and still get the 2HKO on Samurott-H.)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 84-100 (24.7 - 29.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 253-298 (74.6 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then EQ)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta: 70-83 (21.5 - 25.5%) -- 0.7% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta: 208-246 (64 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Chance to OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then EQ)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 195-230 (36.5 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 155-183 (23.7 - 28%) -- 91.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 464-546 (71.1 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then EQ)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 69-82 (17.5 - 20.8%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 207-243 (52.5 - 61.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 138-164 (27.3 - 32.5%) -- 61.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dondozo: 207-243 (41 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 101-122 (20 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 153-181 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- 39.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 218-257 (76.4 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 324-382 (113.6 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 61-73 (19.1 - 22.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 181-214 (56.9 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 86-101 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- 13.5% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 255-302 (88.2 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then EQ)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 156-185 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 231-274 (67.7 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then EQ)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Ninetales-Alola in Snow: 66-78 (18.9 - 22.3%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Ninetales-Alola in Snow: 196-231 (56.1 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Samurott-Hisui: 190-224 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Samurott-Hisui: 281-331 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then IC. Additionally, you could just Trailblaze a second time to outspeed even more threats and still get the 2HKO on Samurott-H.)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 84-100 (24.7 - 29.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 253-298 (74.6 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then EQ)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta: 70-83 (21.5 - 25.5%) -- 0.7% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta: 208-246 (64 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Chance to OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then EQ)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 138-164 (34.5 - 41.1%) -- 61.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 91-108 (30.2 - 35.8%) -- 37.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 230-270 (76.4 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then IC)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ribombee: 300-355 (114.9 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Trailblaze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 91-108 (30.2 - 35.8%) -- 37.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 230-270 (76.4 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Assured OHKO with Trailblaze damage, then IC)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ribombee: 300-355 (114.9 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mamoswine does have some additional movepool options worth noting - Iron Head smacks Pokemon like Clefable, Enamorus, Hatterene, Iron Valiant, Ninetales-A (4x), and Ribombee for super effective damage. Body Press is interesting, and Rock Slide/Stone Edge can be situationally useful. Mamoswine additionally has STAB Priority in the form of Ice Shard and can also set Stealth Rocks up on the field. Mamoswine isn't the catch-all threat-stopper one would expect, but the unique combination of threats Mamoswine checks or counters thanks to its monstrous attack stat, and its fantastic STAB-type combination along with its new moves and toolset is worth looking into.
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ok, hear me out: soft sand is specifically to boost ground-type tera blast. but look at this coverage:
basically, most of ou is hit supereffectively by that 2-move coverage. so what i'm saying is… expert belt
besides, most of the stuff it doesn't cover is stuff cryogonal wouldn't want to stay in on anyway:
and expert belt gives you some very nice calcs, especially if you go for full spa modest (which, with 252 speed, still outspeeds all of these mons):
252+ SpA Expert Belt Tera Ground Cryogonal Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 302-355 (95.8 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Expert Belt Tera Ground Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 406-478 (93.5 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Expert Belt Tera Ground Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Tera Water Gliscor: 305-360 (86.6 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
throw in some rocks/spikes support and you've got some clean ohkos on some of the biggest and most common threats in the meta and completely blast apart the gholdscor core
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As someone who got their reqs with a stall-adjacent balance team, I figure I could give some context on why people are gravitating to those archetypes.
In the current meta, it's an uphill battle trying to build a team that gives consistent results conducive to a suspect run. You need a check to specs thundurus-t, band rillaboom, hoopa-u, polteageist, sneasler, gambit, waterpon, and the whole myriad of offensive threats ranging from fringe to standard. In the current meta, you simply can't rely on traditional counters for a lot of mons, and the defensive cores that existed on ss simply aren't as reliable or all-encompassing in sv. I can't point to tera, gholdengo, gambit, or any specific presence as "the" reason why, but you have to deal with and prepare for a lot of off-meta stuff in a suspect run that aren't covered by a two or three-mon defensive core. It sort of polarizes team building, where you're either building an ho that couldnt care less about its defensive backbone, or an all-bases-covered balance that often plays like stall simply because that's the only viable path to winning consistently. Hope this brings some clarity to why mons like blissey and milotic have been getting more usage, and why stall-like teams have been popping up a lot more.
If only Mamoswine got Swords Dance, Trailblaze would be so fun on it with that kind of set.
If it got Swords Dance it would easily be a slottable option over Knock Off. As is, Mamoswine is somewhat limited on non-situational movepool options - but Trailblaze and its STAB combination (along with Tera) gave it a clear niche and Knock works well enough. If you don't like Knock Off, there's also Body Press, Haze, Stealth Rock, Iron Head, Ice Shard, and Rock Slide/Stone Edge - so Mamo isn't wanting for options, it's just wanting for particular options (although Iron Head for nailing Clefable, Iron Valiant, Hatterene, Ribombee, and more does sound like a nice option).
Mamoswine is a really, really underutilized and underexplored Pokemon right now and absolutely has a place in OU (especially with all the powerful threats it helps people handle).
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All I have ever seen OUVT people play is stall, with the exception of one webs guy where that game was actually good despite me losing
Well, I'm not gonna question how we got the thread locked for more than 10 hours, but rather which of the old moves that are gonna return you guys want, both from the DLC of SwSH or that old mons had, I don't mean those like the common Roost or the most talked Defog, but rather moves that the mon had/could learn (if this last part makes sense).
I'm thinking for the moment about Scorching Sand, since besides being of the most requested it could help against mons like Gambit or Sneasler, with not only hitting them SE, but also having the chance to burn them, or force them to Tera to avoid getting hit and so the burn.
Even Burning Jealousy would be nice, since in a meta where we have many setup sweeper, using a move that punish them for boosting would be excellent, since it even consider boost from abilities and items. Just too bad that most of the mons that can/could learn the moves aren't even UU.
There is also Triple Axel, but I'm honestly scared that Ogerpon could learn the move.
I'm thinking for the moment about Scorching Sand, since besides being of the most requested it could help against mons like Gambit or Sneasler, with not only hitting them SE, but also having the chance to burn them, or force them to Tera to avoid getting hit and so the burn.
Even Burning Jealousy would be nice, since in a meta where we have many setup sweeper, using a move that punish them for boosting would be excellent, since it even consider boost from abilities and items. Just too bad that most of the mons that can/could learn the moves aren't even UU.
There is also Triple Axel, but I'm honestly scared that Ogerpon could learn the move.
People like you gotta stop treating stall as if it's some kind of invalid playstyle. This toxic ass attitude has been a constant problem in this community for decades. You can dislike it, and you can call it boring to play against, but acting as if stall players are somehow worse at the game simply because they play a primarily defensive style is ridiculous. Stall is not "ladder cheese", it's a valid and skillful form of play that this community has villainized primarily because of salt and disdain for defensive play.
...I think... I actually want to try this. This might be like actual heat. Especially if you can get a Speed Boost with Rapid Spin. Morkal's post also highlights how amazing Ground/Ice is right now, so it's not just a meme.
stall isn't an invalid playstyle but what it also isn't is not forfeit cheese, especially when you need to get a certain W/L ratio. Like I'm serious when I say OUVT people only ever play stall (except the one webs guy) it's insane. It's like there's a pattern.
The pattern is not "forfeit cheese", it's that stall is one of the few consistent playstyles that prevents you from getting rolled by the genuinely stupid amount of obscenely powerful offensive mons. Plenty of suspect alts (and honestly what I would assume to be the majority) are running full HO, not stall. You've just got some heavy confirmation bias probably due to the usual salt that comes from people playing against stall.
i've been cryopilled ever since morkal first introduced it in one of the older threads, so i'm always trying out new and interesting things to make it work (i've run tera steel, water, poison, and ghost at different times in the past to deal with various trendy things), and i'm especially open to finding uses for less common or off-meta items because i firmly believe the number of generally useful items is far larger than many people think it is
"forfeit cheese"
Could you please clarify what you mean by this? While I believe that any playstyle being too common (including Stall) can be an indicator of an unhealthy meta, I agree with tr8orsrequiem that Stall gets an unfair reputation for the amount of time involved fighting against it. When you say things like "forfeit cheese", it just makes it sound like you're saying "People aren't patient enough to finish a full match out." Most people who have been playing Pokemon for a long time know when they've lost a match, and forfeits just happen earlier in Stall when a player going against the Stall team realizes they're caught in a loop and have no way to break out of it. It's happened to me and I'm sure everyone else who has played OU has experienced it as well, it's nothing to be ashamed of. It's a great learning experience, and helps show you where your team core needs improvements!
I have been away from the forum for awhile because gen 9 is honestly ridiculous. So much broken crap. I still play a bit here and there, but posting all the time would just be a chore in this sort of meta environment. Last I checked, at least 17 pokemon were banned and we want more bans. Last gen, there were like 34 pokemon in OU. Half of a tier is already banned with more to come. It will likely reach 20 soon. And I don't even disagree with most of them. That's just the way gen 9 is with the absurd power creep.
At some point, though, we are going to need to look at the fundamental issue that is Tera. I know this isn't supposed to happen in this moment, but it's the elephant in the room. To me, it is hypocritical for people who dogged Dynamax as so broken to not say the same about the clearly broken Tera. Especially now when we have so much that is banned and still getting banned from OU for being broken. Tera is enabling a lot of that. I get Dynamax was dumb. I get that Tera is a much more fun mechanic, but it's silly at this point if you cry for balance and still want it in the tier. Do you not see all the broken crap it has and is enabling?
Another sore spot for me with hypocrisy is the crying about Gliscor. I got to be blunt here. There wasn't nearly this much outrage on here for Lando-T in any gen when it was a dominant, overcentralizing, top usage pokemon. All the reasons people have said in defense of Lando-T, such as role compression being a must for team building, usage isn't an indicator of overcentralization, and defensive mons not generally being ban worthy apply to Gliscor. The main difference is Gliscor hasn't been your wooby for generations. And don't @ me before looking at the facts. These are both defensive, ground/flying mons with great role compression ability. The only difference in favor of Gliscor is the sustain from Poison Heal. Ok, pretty big difference. So is Intimidate. Gliscor is slower paced, which the hyper offensive meta game arguably needs. Lando-T forces more switches with intimidate and makes it more difficult for physical attacker heavy teams to be viable.
Gliscor is also weaker in literally every stat except base defense and speed by 4. The speed is sub 100 so it doesn't matter too much. And the base defense doesn't matter as much because Lando-T has intimidate. The special bulk on Gliscor is also worse, so it is generally safer to beat it with special attackers. Meanwhile, Lando-T has an absurd 145 base attack. The only reason that thing isn't banned in a Tera metagame is because it fortunately lost Rock Polish, preventing potentially devastating offensive sets. One of the few things that is actually healthier about the gen 9 metagame is that we actually have multiple, viable alternative options to a ground glue pokemon for teams.
As far as hazard stack complaints go, people are being babies about it. You have an item that makes pokemon immune to them. You have a number of spinners that can hit Gholdengo for super effective damage, even though some are technically UU now. Tusk, Treads, and Torkoal are all usable in OU. You also have Cinderace, which is like an uno reverse card for hazard stack that is difficult to stop because of its speed tier. Hatterene is OU. There are plenty of tools to deal with hazard stack.
And folks complaining about stall should try running a wallbreaker or two. Maybe a Taunt or Encore pokemon? Or maybe a pokemon like Heatran for trapping certain walls with Magma Storm. I mean these things are pretty fundamental.
The things I personally think should be banned now are Ogerpon, Sneasler, and Manaphy. Maybe Zamazenta because of its speed tier and Tera, but that's borderline. Another borderline one is Hissuian Samurott. If hazard stack really needs to be dealt with, I'd start with that before Gliscor or Gholdengo. Anyways, people run Gliscor partly because it actually checks pokemon like Sneasler and Zamazenta to a degree. It can't switch into waterpon without a specific Tera like Dragon or Grass, though it typically wouldn't want this because of the 4x Ice weakness it already has. Ogerpon also wouldn't matter so much without Tera, but that's another story.
At some point, though, we are going to need to look at the fundamental issue that is Tera. I know this isn't supposed to happen in this moment, but it's the elephant in the room. To me, it is hypocritical for people who dogged Dynamax as so broken to not say the same about the clearly broken Tera. Especially now when we have so much that is banned and still getting banned from OU for being broken. Tera is enabling a lot of that. I get Dynamax was dumb. I get that Tera is a much more fun mechanic, but it's silly at this point if you cry for balance and still want it in the tier. Do you not see all the broken crap it has and is enabling?
Another sore spot for me with hypocrisy is the crying about Gliscor. I got to be blunt here. There wasn't nearly this much outrage on here for Lando-T in any gen when it was a dominant, overcentralizing, top usage pokemon. All the reasons people have said in defense of Lando-T, such as role compression being a must for team building, usage isn't an indicator of overcentralization, and defensive mons not generally being ban worthy apply to Gliscor. The main difference is Gliscor hasn't been your wooby for generations. And don't @ me before looking at the facts. These are both defensive, ground/flying mons with great role compression ability. The only difference in favor of Gliscor is the sustain from Poison Heal. Ok, pretty big difference. So is Intimidate. Gliscor is slower paced, which the hyper offensive meta game arguably needs. Lando-T forces more switches with intimidate and makes it more difficult for physical attacker heavy teams to be viable.
Gliscor is also weaker in literally every stat except base defense and speed by 4. The speed is sub 100 so it doesn't matter too much. And the base defense doesn't matter as much because Lando-T has intimidate. The special bulk on Gliscor is also worse, so it is generally safer to beat it with special attackers. Meanwhile, Lando-T has an absurd 145 base attack. The only reason that thing isn't banned in a Tera metagame is because it fortunately lost Rock Polish, preventing potentially devastating offensive sets. One of the few things that is actually healthier about the gen 9 metagame is that we actually have multiple, viable alternative options to a ground glue pokemon for teams.
As far as hazard stack complaints go, people are being babies about it. You have an item that makes pokemon immune to them. You have a number of spinners that can hit Gholdengo for super effective damage, even though some are technically UU now. Tusk, Treads, and Torkoal are all usable in OU. You also have Cinderace, which is like an uno reverse card for hazard stack that is difficult to stop because of its speed tier. Hatterene is OU. There are plenty of tools to deal with hazard stack.
And folks complaining about stall should try running a wallbreaker or two. Maybe a Taunt or Encore pokemon? Or maybe a pokemon like Heatran for trapping certain walls with Magma Storm. I mean these things are pretty fundamental.
The things I personally think should be banned now are Ogerpon, Sneasler, and Manaphy. Maybe Zamazenta because of its speed tier and Tera, but that's borderline. Another borderline one is Hissuian Samurott. If hazard stack really needs to be dealt with, I'd start with that before Gliscor or Gholdengo. Anyways, people run Gliscor partly because it actually checks pokemon like Sneasler and Zamazenta to a degree. It can't switch into waterpon without a specific Tera like Dragon or Grass, though it typically wouldn't want this because of the 4x Ice weakness it already has. Ogerpon also wouldn't matter so much without Tera, but that's another story.
Am I the only one finding Kingambit obnoxiously broken, specially in this hazard meta and with the Ban or Moon?
Even playing well against it or burning it the fucker has so many chances thanks to the bulk and Tera. Sucker punch with 5 teammates down and 1 or 2 sd still hurts a lot.
I agree with the Gliscor and Gholdengo bans, but Kingambit needs to go, its isnt healthy at all.
Even playing well against it or burning it the fucker has so many chances thanks to the bulk and Tera. Sucker punch with 5 teammates down and 1 or 2 sd still hurts a lot.
I agree with the Gliscor and Gholdengo bans, but Kingambit needs to go, its isnt healthy at all.
Darn those stall players forcing you to click forfeit! Nothing else you could possibly do vs them!
really though if players running stall bothers you this much run one of the many team comps that bodies stall, rilla/sneasler/Heatran/hatterene being one, balance or BO that uses Glowking and Garganacl, Ogerpon-W paired with anything else stall needs to Tera against such as Glowking or Psyshock Ghold, etc. Basically Rillaboom, Ogerpon-W, Heatran, Ursaluna, Garganacl, Gholdengo, Hatterene, Glowking, Hoopa-U, these are all Pokémon that are very difficult for stall to deal with, plus certain sets of Dragapult and Valiant, any Pokémon that uses double dance + stored power, and there are also Pokémon that certain stall teams can hardly touch and can at least make it much more difficult for certain stall teams to make progress, these being corviknight and glimmora
basically hating stall this much is either a team issue, a skill issue, a patience issue, or some combination of the 3
want to also add that sentiment like this literally leads to people being harassed while playing, like there are players out there who believe that matching into stall is a perfectly good reason to verbally abuse someone. Something about running stall makes opponents forget that you are human and makes them feel like they can be as rude as they want in the chat which is not acceptable, and comments like yours only lead to toxicity in this community
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NGL, I haven't seen a single stall team while trying to ladder for the sus lmao. Closest thing I've seen are a few teams running Dozo, as I consider any team that runs Dozo to be a stall team lmao (shortsighted take, I know). Despite Dozo being this gen's "Toxapex" in some way, it ain't anywhere near as good as Pex in previous generations because the most it can do is attempt to sweep with Curse. It is a good sweeper with Curse, but its longevity isn't infinite, it gives ton of free turns, and is very exploitable for special threats. In fact, I'll just outright say that I think Dozo is garbage and I think it will be bound to get worse in DLC2 if Tapu Koko comes back and kills its one form of recovery in Rest.
As a stall hater, I am grateful it is easier to deal with this generation than last generation, but I am surprised that it is still considered a good playstyle. Balance teams, for all their flaws, still seem better to me, and HO teams have a great deal of variety that make those feel better this generation, though they can feel a bit inconsistent at times. The current notion is that Stall and HO are the two best playstyles, with Balance being clearly worse, but I feel that's not neccisarily the case. Rather, there is a rock-paper-scissors dynamic where HO beats balance, Stall (maybe?) beats HO, and Balance beats stall. Probably wrong on this front however.
As a stall hater, I am grateful it is easier to deal with this generation than last generation, but I am surprised that it is still considered a good playstyle. Balance teams, for all their flaws, still seem better to me, and HO teams have a great deal of variety that make those feel better this generation, though they can feel a bit inconsistent at times. The current notion is that Stall and HO are the two best playstyles, with Balance being clearly worse, but I feel that's not neccisarily the case. Rather, there is a rock-paper-scissors dynamic where HO beats balance, Stall (maybe?) beats HO, and Balance beats stall. Probably wrong on this front however.
dynamax effectively gave a mon three free turns, plus a boost or weather or terrain for every move it did during said turns, and turned every attack into powerful coverage. the only counterplay to dynamax was dynamaxing your own mon. tera gives a mon one free turn at most and either turns one type of attack into powerful coverage or makes one of your stabs stronger. counterplay against tera is much more varied than "just tera your own mon lol". even most anti-tera people realize that dynamax was in a completely different league
ok, i understand you've "been away from the forums for a while" and you therefore probably haven't read any of the cases people have made for gliscor being broken, or watched any of the replays, but i have to wonder if you've even played the game since dlc because this take is hilariously uninformed, almost embarrassingly so
do you think we don't know all of this? we're trying our damnedest to find new methods of hazard removal and mitigation, gone from the cream of the crop to the bottom of the barrel and back again to find the silver-bullet option that would make hazards bearable, and we, as a community, are still coming up short. why do you think that is?
this i agree with, losing to stall is either a skill issue, a matchup issue, or a builder issue (which is technically also a skill issue but one that can be mitigated by stealing better people's teams like i do)
i agree that waterpon and manaphy need to go, and probably sneasler and eventually hamurott, but… now? really? also, substitute zamazenta is one of the most reliable hard stops to gliscor in existence, so saying people run gliscor to check zamazenta is laughable
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I want to highlight this point by DaddyBuzzwole in particular (especially since I'm the kind of person who, consistently throughout my competitive Pokemon career, has intentionally found usage for and analyzed lower-tier Pokemon in OU) because I think it brings up a valid concern. As much as I love finding uses for sub-OU mons, the metagame's state of normalcy should never be "You need to find that one PU Pokemon that has that one function and no other function."
Remember how Naganadel terrorized OU in the past? Remember how people were running Max SpDef Empoleon and Assault Vest Tyranitar because almost nothing else could consistently handle it? This is the big issue with hazards right now - they're very difficult to take down due to a combination of Gholdengo, less reliable access to Defog/Rapid Spin, and a meta that's hostile to spinners/Defog users as a whole. Teambuilding feels extremely pressured right now, and that's not a good thing.
This is why people want Gholdengo suspected because they feel that Gholdengo being gone will make getting rid of hazards easier. Personally, I'm still on the fence regarding Dhengo, but we'll leave that for potential suspect tests. Bold School I'd like to stress that people are not being babies about hazard stack, they're struggling to find counterplay that's consistent and doesn't bog them down in the teambuilder. Again, I am literally saying this as someone who wrote a 5000+ word Calyrex OU analysis a few months ago, people should not have to dig through the lower tiers just because a whole playstyle is showing itself to be consistently unhealthy (or, at the very least, has way more incentives to run it over other playstyles to an unhealthy degree).
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This discussion has been had on here before, so I don't want to get too into it, but Dynmax could be soft stalled by protect, endure, and faster or prankster substitute users. You could also use something like Destiny Bond, Ditto, or Red Card after the Dynamax ended to deal with the boosts. It's not healthy for a metagame, but saying there was no other way to deal with it besides to Dynamax your own mon was never strictly speaking true.
Dynamax had a turn limit. Tera doesn't. Tera has less limits than even Dynamax did. So far, many more pokemon have been banned in this gen. There are multiple factors for this, but Tera is definitely one of them. Furthermore, let's not pretend that using your own Tera to come back when the opponent has used theirs hasn't been a thing this gen. It absolutely has.
I played the metagame some. More on unregistered alts than this account, but I played a decent amount. I have faced Gliscor, used Gliscor, read some arguments, and all that. Admittedly, I could probably read more arguments. But still, I'm not as uninformed as you think. If you have a good counterargument, make it instead of trying to handwave me away by saying I'm uninformed or some other deflective nonsense.
The facts are people treat Lando-T and Glisor very differently. And in case you misunderstood, I'm NOT saying Lando-T is broken in this gen. I don't think it is.. I'm bringing up the different treatment in certain past gens and applying that to Gliscor. It's a double standard. But feel free to bring up all the reasons why you think it's not a double standard. I'll wait.
Define coming up short? Because I don't believe that hazard stack should be nerfed or countered into unviable oblivion. It's fine that it is a viable playstyle. The issue is if it's overpowered or not. I disagree that it's overpowered. As someone who has done everything from running hazard stack teams to facing hazard stack without even having hazards on the team, I really think we have enough tools in the toolbox to deal with it.
I'm glad we agree on something.
Not sure what you mean by "now?" A ban is a ban. Either something is broken or it's not. I also don't see the point in banning hamurott if folks are going to ban things like Gholdengo. Just use a defogger like Corv at that point.
As for Gliscor checking Zamazenta, I have used a fling/acrobatics/EQ/sub set a lot on teams where I ran Gliscor. So maybe this is just my personal bias with a bit of a weird set. In my experience, Zamazenta also tends to Tera to Steel. So a Gliscor with Flying/Ground coverage works pretty well. Gliscor can also switch into body press pretty well if Zamazenta doesn't have too many boosts up.
has anyone tried skeledirge on grassy terrain?, no not with grassy seed, just raw skeledirge on grassy terrain, losing its weakness to the common earthquake coverage increases the list of pokemon it can wall and it pairs pretty good with common grassy terrain mons
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reason number one: spikes
reason number two: second layer of spikes
reason number three: surprise, it's the third layer of fucking spikes
you wanna talk about double standards? let's talk about how gliscor's longevity is double the standard amount because of poison heal
Well, maybe you should find that one OU mon instead? Cinderace, Tusk, and Hatterene are all OU. At most, I suggested some UU mons that are very playable in OU. Nothing worse than that or with no other function. I get you are exaggerating with PU for emphases, but I'm really not reaching that far into the abyss here.
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