Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[Fenghuang]

Nooo don't ban the funny meme your so sexy aha

How does it feel to think you might eventually have singlehandedly gotten quick claw banned.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Ok sorry I honestly think a ton of the points in your post were fair and it was a well reasoned post but what on earth does this mean? How is volcarona a placebo?

When it comes to sweepers, typically one of the arguments is you're pressured in teambuilder to run multiple answers to it. With volc this could be needing to run a check for each tera so when it breaks one check with one tera, the other check covers it. This sounds on paper like there was restraint in how you could teambuild as not doing so meant 6-0 by volc.

Turns out this teambuilder pressure was placebo because everyone is still running those same teams, without volcarona we're not seeing a decrease in teambuilder pressure, it just shifted to multiple other threats now that volc isn't an answer to them anymore and no adaptations have been reconized specifically for targetting volc, again volc was just kinda there being gas lit for 'having to run heatran' or some shit but heatran isn't dropping UU anytime soon even without it.

The only pressure there ever was, was current problems like gambit no longer need an anti-volc tera to shred the tier which basically means removing volc for an imaginary pressure on teambuilder shifted into actual real pressure for multiple threats instead.

 

[Alternator]

At the end of the day, quick claw is in the same category as things like King's Rock or Bright Powder. It's pure RNG without any other utility that would make it a valuable addition to the meta. It doesn't really deserve discussion the way Kingambit, Volc, or Zama do/did because they have both positive and negative effects on OU.

If "increase in pure RNG" is ban-worthy due to being uncompetitive, then Serene Grace also needs to go. Literally all it does is increase the RNG of the user's moves, it has no other function.

"But Serene Grace has been fine in OU for many generations," falls flat as a reason not to ban it, since Quick Claw was also not an issue in OU for many generations.

 

[Fenghuang]

If "increase in pure RNG" is ban-worthy due to being uncompetitive, then Serene Grace also needs to go. Literally all it does is increase the RNG of the user's moves, it has no other function.

That's not true? If something previously had a 50% chance of proccing and not it's 100%, that's less randomness. Serene grace makes side effects more consistent, actually.

 

[zantaRay]

That's not true? If something previously had a 50% chance of proccing and not it's 100%, that's less randomness. Serene grace makes side effects more consistent, actually.

This is just wrong. Yes in your scenario it's more certain what will happen, but if it went from 10/20/30 -> 20/40/60 (i.e. the actual numbers in the game), it has increased the uncertainty of the outcome of the turn. I don't think serene grace is a thing that should be banned, but it absolutely increases the randomness of games.

 

[Carl_the_turtle]

I'm a little confused on the QC debate because of glowbro. Would Quick Draw end up getting the boot if Quick Claw was banned? Is the issue here the continued inconsistent priority fishing being potentially uncompetitive or the ability to spam it, since glowbro is one of the weaker users? (I have no stake in this fight other than thinking that light clay is the bigger problem with the monoclaw team than the claw itself).

 

[awyp]

I'm a little confused on the QC debate because of glowbro. Would Quick Draw end up getting the boot if Quick Claw was banned? Is the issue here the continued inconsistent priority fishing being potentially uncompetitive or the ability to spam it, since glowbro is one of the weaker users? (I have no stake in this fight other than thinking that light clay is the bigger problem with the monoclaw team than the claw itself).

From what I've been hearing it would just be Quick Claw, Quick Draw is just be unique to one mon so I don't think it would be dragged out as a problem ideally.

 

[UnfortunateSal]

So I made a Bisharp + Gambit team in like 2 minutes and it's actually kinda good? Of my 8 last mactehs I only lost 1 and it was against a Diancie cosplaying as a Magearna (CM / Iron Defense / Stored Power / Draining kiss was the set and it fucked me over so badly lmao)

But yeah, a few replays to show it working:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1895349460
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1895353028-i35vehx98kmki45fuq467dk4z1xppvgpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1895357691

I also learnt that Bisharp needs 176 speed to outspeed Jolly Gambit oops:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1895351221

So 248 Atk / 84 SpA / 178 Spe is actually the optimal spread, you creep Tusk that creeps jolly Kingambit and have a 83.6% chance to 2HKO max phys def no SpD Tusk after rocks so it's still like, okay.

Honestly, I dunno if it's just being mid/low ladder, or Kingambit (and lowkey Pult) being broken as fuck anyway that makes this team kinda work consistently, but it's been pretty good for me lol.

By the way, dual dance enamorus is crazy lmao, Agility is suprisingly eay to set up and it can just fuck oiver offense so badly once it gets the speed boost, highly reccomend it

Oh yeah, and I keep seeing people acting like Landorus-T isn't top-tier anymore for some reason, but no, it absolutely is and people are seriously sleeping on it. One thing that Landorus-T does really well is slow down sweepers that otherwise destroy your team. Even just sacing it for the combination of attack drop + RH chip can be the difference between winning and losing, and that's something Great Tusk can never pull off. You see this in both replay 2 against the Liligant and especailly Replay 3 against the Roaring Moon, where I would have lost on the spot if I didn't have Landorus-T, or had Great Tusk instead of it. So yeah, Landorus-T is really fucking good, people are just sleeping on it because they aren't using it to its fullest potential as a way to slow down a lot of the incredibly dangerous shit in the tier

 

[Fenghuang]

I'm a little confused on the QC debate because of glowbro. Would Quick Draw end up getting the boot if Quick Claw was banned? Is the issue here the continued inconsistent priority fishing being potentially uncompetitive or the ability to spam it, since glowbro is one of the weaker users? (I have no stake in this fight other than thinking that light clay is the bigger problem with the monoclaw team than the claw itself).

Fwiw I've wanted quick draw and qc banned since last gen for personal reasons, always hated them and thought they were kinda annoying.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

inb4 super luck and focus energy go on the chopping block for 'increasing the chance of RNG'.

Low RNG is not a big deal, consistent RNG is bullshit in the scenario a mon can just cheese through all its problem (jirachi, togekiss) especially if it doesn't have many problems to begin with such as revenge killers (if you start complaining about being RNG'd by a serene grace dunsparce is a sign its time to retire).

Typically its the context of what that RNG does; i.e. landing OHKO moves being devastating. Meanwhile actually landing moves like hypnosis can be crippling but also you could argue despite the luck factor, there's reliable sleep options so relying on hypnosis is actually griefing yourself. Crit builds don't work well because all the pokemon have serious issues soi even when you maximize crit odds you don't usually see the pay off as much or its easier to just run a standard set for said mon (rain kingdra vs critdra.)

 

[artificialdeath]

If "increase in pure RNG" is ban-worthy due to being uncompetitive, then Serene Grace also needs to go. Literally all it does is increase the RNG of the user's moves, it has no other function.

"But Serene Grace has been fine in OU for many generations," falls flat as a reason not to ban it, since Quick Claw was also not an issue in OU for many generations.

If Jirachi had a hidden ability or had absolutely no utility outside of abusing Serene Grace I genuinely would not be opposed to it; the loss of a fairly useful mon with a good typing and 100s across the board would really be the only downside there. Same thing with abilities like Super Luck, or moves such as Focus Energy, that don't really get used outside of really gimmicky sets anyway. Of course a line must be drawn somewhere, and I'd say that Static and Flame Body aren't uncompetitive, but all the other hypotheticals would be okay in my eyes.

 

[awyp]

inb4 super luck and focus energy go on the chopping block for 'increasing the chance of RNG'.

Low RNG is not a big deal, consistent RNG is bullshit in the scenario a mon can just cheese through all its problem (jirachi, togekiss) especially if it doesn't have many problems to begin with such as revenge killers (if you start complaining about being RNG'd by a serene grace dunsparce is a sign its time to retire).

Typically its the context of what that RNG does; i.e. landing OHKO moves being devastating. Meanwhile actually landing moves like hypnosis can be crippling but also you could argue despite the luck factor, there's reliable sleep options so relying on hypnosis is actually griefing yourself. Crit builds don't work well because all the pokemon have serious issues soi even when you maximize crit odds you don't usually see the pay off as much or its easier to just run a standard set for said mon (rain kingdra vs critdra.)

To be honest though (Razer Claw + Focus Energy) can be a problem see here:


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1895375101-bperc1cpt6pn9cfar2ur87rlx0nsw40pw (Look at turns 17-22)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1895288123-vfd2swzbtvynr6iy76jd8dgvzfjvqm3pw (Test game)

So I've been testing out this set:

(Baxcalibur) @ Razor Claw
Ability: Thermal Exchange
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Focus Energy
- Icicle Crash
- Glaive Rush

The 1st replay is a decent example towards the end how I was able to fish for 3 crits in a row with ease. The 2nd replay was a test with 1LDK where I just wanted to show that Razor Claw + Focus Energy will crit every single time. For example if you use Hydreigon and go with Razor Claw + Focus Energy you can spam Draco Meteor without negatively feeling the consequences of your special attack being dropped because crits will break through the drop. The saving grace is Focus Energy is not easy to setup but with screens I can see it being a bit more simpler.

Does this need to get banned? probably not unless it starts becoming a problem because slotting in Razor Claw (in the item slot) + setting up Focus Energy isn't the easiest and most efficient thing in the world to do, Critical Hits are super situational in comparison to setting up a Dragon Dance / Swords Dance for example. I think it's beneficial breaking through attack drops any defense boosts from the opposing mons, but outside of that I can see it being niche.

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

Let's talk about Libero / Protean facts.
If it activates and then you Teralize to the same type the ability has changed to, the pokemon gets the STAB bonus from the Tera Type, here's a little example:

(Default Cinderace's typing)
252+ Atk Tera Normal Cinderace Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 346-408 (74.7 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(After changing to Normal type from Libero)
252+ Atk Tera Normal Cinderace Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 462-544 (99.7 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

 

[Mega Breloom]

Using a terrible example like this doesn't strengthen your argument, just for the record. The problem with Quick Claw is it enables slow, powerful pokemon to circumvent their biggest flaw which is put in place to balance them, through pure RNG. It activating at inopportune times for the opponent just robs them of agency, as instead of an offensive pokemon threatening to revenge kill a weakened breaker (for example, Iron Valiant threatening a weakened Ursaluna), the RNG can just decide to allow them to go first and invalidate that counterplay.

Yeah the example isn't the best but is works to show how evasion can be worse than quick claw, evasion can negate not only the offensive counterplay but also the defensive and potentially giving set up sweepers several free turns with the rival's decisions not mattering at all. Other thing is that the mono claw team does is removing the low speed issue not just with quick claw but also with screens, IMO that is what makes that team win more games if played well than quick claw itself (on that we agree, the team will be better if you give other teams to those mons). Screens make the team way harder to revenge than quick claw, as you mentioned Valiant can KO a weakened Ursa but what how can the ursa be weakened in the first place if it doesn't take burn damage and beats defensive pokemons easily? That is the catch with the team, even if you don't get relevant quick claw procs the team still has the advantage by winning most trades, Valiant is strong but with screens and a Grimm's taunt not allowing it to boost to bypass the screens (another good choice by Delibirb Heart, running taunt over parting shot, stopping set up is more important that pivoting for this team) it just gets OHKO by any of the attackers and it cannot OHKO anything back unless there are a lot of chip on advance, something is hard to archive with now much pressure those mons bring, basically forcing KOs against offensive mons every turn or 2HKO most walls.
That speaks more about how bulky offense may be the strongest playstyle rn but it is still unexplored rather than quick claw being an issue and most likely the team will perform better with other items. Then if the item is very suboptimal and barely is factor on that team success, why banning it instead of going for other elements in the tier? For me banning quick claw would be like banning smoke screen and mud slap, yeah they are just rng stuff but they are irrelevant, even something more situational like Enamorus getting an evasion rise by switch in into a predicted defog is technically uncompetitive but are we really going to ban contrary just for that when it accomplishes very little compared to action on one of the 100 issues the tier has rn?
IMO the aim should be trying to get a stable meta before start looking to ban stuff like quick claw which is very niche and realistically the ban would have zero impact on the tier.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

ah yes, once again, a very honest post

maybe if you don't want to get clowned on you should have less clownonable opinions. quick claw is a non-issue, screens bulky offense is just bullshit strong right now

To be honest though (Razer Claw + Focus Energy) can be a problem see here:


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1895375101-bperc1cpt6pn9cfar2ur87rlx0nsw40pw (Look at turns 17-22)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1895288123-vfd2swzbtvynr6iy76jd8dgvzfjvqm3pw (Test game)

So I've been testing out this set:

(Baxcalibur) @ Razor Claw
Ability: Thermal Exchange
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Focus Energy
- Icicle Crash
- Glaive Rush

The 1st replay is a decent example towards the end how I was able to fish for 3 crits in a row with ease. The 2nd replay was a test with 1LDK where I just wanted to show that Razor Claw + Focus Energy will crit every single time. For example if you use Hydreigon and go with Razor Claw + Focus Energy you can spam Draco Meteor without negatively feeling the consequences of your special attack being dropped because crits will break through the drop. The saving grace is Focus Energy is not easy to setup but with screens I can see it being a bit more simpler.

Does this need to get banned? probably not unless it starts becoming a problem because slotting in Razor Claw (in the item slot) + setting up Focus Energy isn't the easiest and most efficient thing in the world to do, Critical Hits are super situational in comparison to setting up a Dragon Dance / Swords Dance for example. I think it's beneficial breaking through Will-O-Wisp / attack drops any defense boosts from the opposing mons, but outside of that I can see it being niche.

use icicle spear over crash, it's funnier to get 5 crits in a row

 

[tigers jaw]

good job missing the point of pretty much every post advocating for a ban

keep it up!

 

[Magcargo]

To be honest though (Razer Claw + Focus Energy) can be a problem see here:


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1895375101-bperc1cpt6pn9cfar2ur87rlx0nsw40pw (Look at turns 17-22)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1895288123-vfd2swzbtvynr6iy76jd8dgvzfjvqm3pw (Test game)

So I've been testing out this set:

(Baxcalibur) @ Razor Claw
Ability: Thermal Exchange
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Focus Energy
- Icicle Crash
- Glaive Rush

The 1st replay is a decent example towards the end how I was able to fish for 3 crits in a row with ease. The 2nd replay was a test with 1LDK where I just wanted to show that Razor Claw + Focus Energy will crit every single time. For example if you use Hydreigon and go with Razor Claw + Focus Energy you can spam Draco Meteor without negatively feeling the consequences of your special attack being dropped because crits will break through the drop. The saving grace is Focus Energy is not easy to setup but with screens I can see it being a bit more simpler.

Does this need to get banned? probably not unless it starts becoming a problem because slotting in Razor Claw (in the item slot) + setting up Focus Energy isn't the easiest and most efficient thing in the world to do, Critical Hits are super situational in comparison to setting up a Dragon Dance / Swords Dance for example. I think it's beneficial breaking through Will-O-Wisp / attack drops any defense boosts from the opposing mons, but outside of that I can see it being niche.

I'm confused here. How were you "fishing for 3 crits" when you used Focus Energy? Were you using Boots over Razor Claw? Also crits don't ignore burn. It does have some niche application against Unaware users though, which are more relevant now than in prior gens.

 

[Mega Breloom]

I'm confused here. How were you "fishing for 3 crits" when you used Focus Energy? Were you using Boots over Razor Claw? Also crits don't ignore burn. It does have some niche application against Unaware users though, which are more relevant now than in prior gens.

Crits also bypass screens but not the proto defense boosts so I would say that they are on a neutral spot towards the meta rn. Crits are strong but outside of the shifus there are not optimal guarranted crit mons even with razor claw.

 

[Karxrida]

To be honest though (Razer Claw + Focus Energy) can be a problem see here:


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1895375101-bperc1cpt6pn9cfar2ur87rlx0nsw40pw (Look at turns 17-22)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1895288123-vfd2swzbtvynr6iy76jd8dgvzfjvqm3pw (Test game)

So I've been testing out this set:

(Baxcalibur) @ Razor Claw
Ability: Thermal Exchange
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Focus Energy
- Icicle Crash
- Glaive Rush

The 1st replay is a decent example towards the end how I was able to fish for 3 crits in a row with ease. The 2nd replay was a test with 1LDK where I just wanted to show that Razor Claw + Focus Energy will crit every single time. For example if you use Hydreigon and go with Razor Claw + Focus Energy you can spam Draco Meteor without negatively feeling the consequences of your special attack being dropped because crits will break through the drop. The saving grace is Focus Energy is not easy to setup but with screens I can see it being a bit more simpler.

Does this need to get banned? probably not unless it starts becoming a problem because slotting in Razor Claw (in the item slot) + setting up Focus Energy isn't the easiest and most efficient thing in the world to do, Critical Hits are super situational in comparison to setting up a Dragon Dance / Swords Dance for example. I think it's beneficial breaking through Will-O-Wisp / attack drops any defense boosts from the opposing mons, but outside of that I can see it being niche.

I really don't see this as an issue. Crits are only x1.5 damage and you're not even playing with RNG when the procs are guaranteed. Seems like you'd only run this to break past walls trying to Iron Press you or, like you said, spam Draco.

 

[Empress Mobile]

That's not true? If something previously had a 50% chance of proccing and not it's 100%, that's less randomness. Serene grace makes side effects more consistent, actually.

The closer you are to 50% the more random it is. Not that that's the only consideration.

If "increase in pure RNG" is ban-worthy due to being uncompetitive, then Serene Grace also needs to go. Literally all it does is increase the RNG of the user's moves, it has no other function.

"But Serene Grace has been fine in OU for many generations," falls flat as a reason not to ban it, since Quick Claw was also not an issue in OU for many generations.

Did anyone actually make that argument about Serene Grace? Nothing has changed about the ability or the item. The problem with Quick Claw is NOT just that it introduces RNG. The problem is that it has a random chance to reward suboptimal play and there is no consistent counterplay. Fishing for a 60% flinch is a totally reasonable strategy. Fishing for a 20% claw activation is a BAD play. I'm still undecided on my opinion on this matter overall though.

When it comes to sweepers, typically one of the arguments is you're pressured in teambuilder to run multiple answers to it. With volc this could be needing to run a check for each tera so when it breaks one check with one tera, the other check covers it. This sounds on paper like there was restraint in how you could teambuild as not doing so meant 6-0 by volc.

Turns out this teambuilder pressure was placebo because everyone is still running those same teams, without volcarona we're not seeing a decrease in teambuilder pressure, it just shifted to multiple other threats now that volc isn't an answer to them anymore and no adaptations have been reconized specifically for targetting volc, again volc was just kinda there being gas lit for 'having to run heatran' or some shit but heatran isn't dropping UU anytime soon even without it.

The only pressure there ever was, was current problems like gambit no longer need an anti-volc tera to shred the tier which basically means removing volc for an imaginary pressure on teambuilder shifted into actual real pressure for multiple threats instead.

Ah ok that makes a lot of sense. It has nothing to do with a placebo effect but I agree with much of what you said.

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

GYARADOS

"Brutally vicious and enormously destructive. Known for totally destroying cities in ancient times."
-Pokemon Yellow Dex Entry

"Morkal? Haven't heard of them" (stop the cap)
-A eevee in the lobby

Hi, so zamazenta was not banned. I decided it was the time for some reason, anyways without further ado let's get into it.

SUMMARISED ADVANTAGES

1. Gyarados's unique typing allows it to set up on common metagame staples, such as Great Tusk
2. Gyarados's STAB combination is unresisted in OU with the exception of Washtom
3. Gyarados is a great sweeper on offence as many teams are prepared for it.
4. Gyarados pairs well with a Washtom lure, and preferably also a Dondozo lure.
5. Gyarados can taunt many pokemon, allowing it to disrupt. This also allows it to break through skeledirge
6. Gyarados is a great tera abuser
7. it looks awesome lmao

Taunt Dragon Dance Sweeper

Gyarados @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Tera Blast

Alright. Let me explain the EVs first. 236 speed is run so that you outspend dragapult after a single dragon dance, and since its rare for someone else uses gyarados, I did not run 252 speed, and instead dumped the remaining points into health. Now let's talk about taunt.

Taunt is a status move that disrupts the enemy. It walls great tusk, but taunt allows you to sit on bulk up variants of it and set up. If you really hate great tusk, you can run No Item to reduce knock off damage. The main purpose of taunt is to shut down recovery, defense boosting moves and status moves. There are many pokemon vulnerable to it. Corviknight's roosting and iron defense attempts get shut down, allowing you to set up. Clodsire's toxic get's shutdown, allowing you to set up and then kill it. The biggest vicitim is Skeledirge. Taunt stops wisp and Slack Off, allowing you to brute force it with waterfalls and tera flying tera blasts. You can also catch cheeky Tera + Wisp attempts with it. However, it can also be used defensively. For example, if you double switched Gyarados on an Azumarill switch, you can sack it by taunting azumarill. If it clicks belly drum, then you get a free turn and can attack it, or if you are bulky enough set up on it.

Now let's talk about tera blast. Gyarados mainly fits on offence teams, and needs teammates not reliant on tera. Tera blast gifts gyarados a flying Stab, and that's not to mention that tera flying also boosts flying moves even further, so Gyarados will hit like a freight train. This also means that gyarados sheds some weaknesses, having a weaker electric weakness and a resistance to grass. Tera blast is also spammable, for it is 100% accurate and non-contact with good base power and PP. If you are planning to slap on gyarados on a random offence team with say.... tera flying roaring moon, don't. A non-stab 80 bp normal move is just ass.

Offensive Calcs

Waterfall, super effective

252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Unaware Skeledirge: 254-302 (61.8 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Waterfall, super effective

252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 210-248 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 314-372 (61 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 228-270 (52.5 - 62.2%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Waterfall, neutral

252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta: 114-135 (35 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta: 169-201 (52 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 133-157 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 199-235 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 163-193 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

(no resisted hits because they are weak, plus...)

Tera Blast + Tera Flying (no boosts)

super effective
252 Atk Tera Flying Gyarados Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 336-396 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tera Flying Gyarados Tera Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 80 Def Zamazenta: 188-224 (48.4 - 57.7%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tera Flying Gyarados Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 204-244 (47 - 56.2%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
neutral
252 Atk Tera Flying Gyarados Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 204-242 (50.4 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tera Flying Gyarados Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 186-220 (57.2 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tera Flying Gyarados Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 170-202 (41.3 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

resisted
252 Atk Tera Flying Gyarados Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 89-105 (28.2 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

(im too lazy to do the rest pls don't kill me)

Boosted Tera Blast + Tera Flying

+1
+1 252 Atk Tera Flying Gyarados Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 133-157 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Tera Flying Gyarados Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 278-328 (85.5 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Tera Flying Gyarados Tera Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 80 Def Zamazenta: 280-332 (72.1 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Tera Flying Gyarados Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 132-156 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


+2
+2 252 Atk Tera Flying Gyarados Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Baxcalibur: 362-428 (97.5 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Boosted Waterfall

+1
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 163-193 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 162-192 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 314-372 (61 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2
+2 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 217-256 (54.2 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

DEFENSIVE CALCS

pre-tera

252+ Atk Choice Band Basculegion Wave Crash vs. 20 HP / 0 Def Gyarados in Rain: 265-312 (78.8 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Basculegion Aqua Jet vs. 20 HP / 0 Def Gyarados in Rain: 89-105 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Basculegion Liquidation vs. 20 HP / 0 Def Gyarados in Rain: 187-221 (55.6 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 127-151 (37.7 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 207-244 (61.6 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 20 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 268-316 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Baxcalibur Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 20 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 275-330 (81.8 - 98.2%) -- approx. 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 20 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 168-198 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

post-tera (new resists and weaknesses

252 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Tera Flying Gyarados: 288-338 (85.7 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hurricane vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Tera Flying Gyarados: 237-280 (70.5 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 20 HP / 0 SpD Tera Flying Gyarados: 158-188 (47 - 55.9%) -- 78.9% chance to 2HKO

Good Teammates

WASHTOM LURE

seriously tho, washtom halts gyarados sweeps. actually idk what is a washtom lure that doesn't use tera

SCREENS

Gyarados benefits immensely from screens. It can now set up on more mons such as baxcalibur and being harder to revenge kill. It also allows it to take priority revenge kill moves better. A good example is dragapult, which is used in HO as a lead rn.

Conclusion

bye.

 

[awyp]

I'm confused here. How were you "fishing for 3 crits" when you used Focus Energy? Were you using Boots over Razor Claw? Also crits don't ignore burn. It does have some niche application against Unaware users though, which are more relevant now than in prior gens.

I think I used the wrong terminology when it comes to “fishing”, I was guaranteed to get critical hits the last three turns because of the Razor Claw + Focus Energy combination because Critical Hits at +3 stages ensures that you crit every single time.

 

[sims796]

I don't have anything personally against Quick Claw, but it seems no different mechanically from Bright powder. No, I just looked it up, it's only a %10 accuracy decrease (which may be everything in this game I admit). I'm not the mathiest, but a %20 chance of a Headlong Rush becoming a priority move outta nowhere sounds even bullshitier than Bright Powder. It even sounds less obnoxious than Sand Veil, at least that has a degree of counterplay with Chilly Reception. Hell, Sand Viel/Snow Cloak cancels each other out!

I know, wacky argument, but still.

 

[MangoSteak]

God why dont we have an item clause?

Right, so it was regenerator that was propping up stall, but now its hazards keeping it down. What is it? Is stall good, or is it bad?


"For some reason"
Its an uncompetitive move that devalued physical attackers by merely existing. Scald could carry teams with a regen core and chansey/blissey solely because if the opposing threat was burned you could softboiled for days. This isnt some intimidate shit where yeah, landorus fuckin sucks to be against but its still quad weak to ice and weak to water, both great attacking types, or wo-chien whose ability to cut attack by iirc 33% is balanced by it having a really shitty defensive typing. Its just a very solid, spammable move with a high chance to burn and solid damage.
The only relevant guts mon in the meta wont take it well either, because burn or no burn, its in KO range from another mon.
Points are being repeated because it takes many strikes of a hammer to sink in a nail, which is why i have to say this again: Scald gives mons that would in every other instance switch out of threats a means to throw chip, a way to inflict status, and the ones that used it the most wouldnt mind staying in for a hit since they can just recover/regenerate it later. Its skillless, as opposed to your example of strong offensive threats, which require positioning and prior set up in order to maximize their potential. Cant just throw in a walking wake, or a dragonite. Shit needs screens and/or a dedicated Tera to pull off their main purpose. KO-ing shit.

yeah item clause ain't gonna do shit to make the meta better.
It will get even more restricitive and offensive.

 

[Lectrys]

The one pragmatic defense I have to Tera (keep in mind I do want it restricted) is one of fear.

<snip because long post>

Knowing Garg's Tera type beforehand lets you pressure it easier offensively.

And Tera Preview does not help with that. The only way to solve the various Garganacl Tera types is to solve them in the teambuilder.

It doesn't matter what this team does, Tera Water Garg walls it:

Importable

Sneasler @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Poison Touch
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dire Claw
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Shadow Claw

Enamorus @ Expert Belt
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Mystical Fire
- Tailwind

Samurott-Hisui @ Expert Belt
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Ceaseless Edge
- Razor Shell
- Sacred Sword

Zamazenta @ Expert Belt
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- Psychic Fangs

Iron Treads @ Assault Vest
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Spinner

Skeledirge @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Torch Song
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Ball
- Slack Off

252 SpA Tera Fairy Enamorus Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

...Yes, I thought building this Toxapex-weak team was a decent idea. Somehow got me to 1600s in ladder so the core's likely fine. I have been adjusting the last slot for a while to try to seal the Toxapex and Dondozo weaknesses; Slowking-G left me too open to Corviknight and crashed me into the 1500s with several losses in a row, while Zapdos has been faring better but makes the team noticeably softer to Iron Valiant. At least Scarf Sneasler OHKOes non-Tera Iron Valiant and pretty much no Booster Energy Iron Valiant user I've gone up against ever suspects Scarf.

Honestly, this team also has a rough time with Tera Fairy Garg, and having to wear it down with Skeledirge is one of the team's saner ideas:

252 Atk Sneasler Dire Claw vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Tera Fairy Garganacl: 168-200 (41.5 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Don't get me started on Tera Flying Garg against this team:

252 Atk Expert Belt Zamazenta Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Tera Flying Garganacl: 161-190 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

At least Samurott-H covers Tera Ghost Garg for a while:

252 Atk Expert Belt Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Tera Ghost Garganacl: 216-254 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

When it comes to offensively breaking walls that can Tera, Terastallized Pokemon need to be treated as entirely different Pokemon in the teambuilder. Note that this is why I am against Tera Preview - it simply will not do enough. Tera Blast doesn't quite have enough abusers to make banning it alone have enough impact, and banning non-STAB Tera still lets dual-typed Pokemon use Tera defensively to suddenly check enough of their revenge killers (e.g. Tera Fairy Enamorus on my team is partially to stuff Baxcalibur). Banning STAB Tera does not remove Tera negating checks and suddenly swinging 1-vs.-1's in your favour. IMO, it's ban Tera completely or bust.