Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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:Kingambit: not only we have a lot of checks on several of the most used mons but we also just allowed a cover legendary with absurb stats that can beat it not matter what
This is simply not true. Zamazenta can be forced to come in once in the midgame, so that it doesnt get the +1 from Dauntless Shield in the endgame. After this it just can't take on Tera Flying / Fairy at all, it takes too much

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Iron Head vs. +2 0 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta: 148-175 (45.5 - 53.8%)

This means you can "try" to take on Flying / Fairy Kingambit 1 on 1, but not if its already at +2 or if you are trying to hard switch into it. This doesn't even consider Tera Blast Flying or Tera Blast Fairy (I spam this set)

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Tera Blast vs. +2 0 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta: 276-326 (84.9 - 100.3%)

Realistically Zamazenta at most forces Kingambit to tera more often compared to Great Tusk and live 1 extra turn, but this is only because the latter doesn't always run a Fighting move unlike Zamazenta.
 
Tera: YES PLS NOW
Volc: Tera Abuser. Whitout tera typical OU Staple. So no retest for now
Kingambit: Tera Abuser. Same as Volc
Garganacl: Tera Abuser
Valiant: Tera Abuser. Same as Volc
Sneasler: Dire claw is bs. Umburden is aslo in the same Tera abuser category
Kyurem at Home: Same as the rest
H-Samurott: LMAO
Quick Claw: Quick Ban

Gholdengo "Good as Gold" need to be suspected someday
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
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Hey guys I have to ask...why are yall rating Tera from 1-5? All the survey asked for regarding tera was this:

View attachment 530359

I voted 1 for competitiveness+enjoyment and 5 on everything else and if you need an explanation, you have not read my posts.
I'm gotten a little soft, I think I can live in a world with Terastallization. I think if we're able to implement some strong restrictions yet keep the core of the mechanic we might have a happy medium. I think what puts tera over the edge is definitely not knowing what the other mons tera is which has been proven with VGC to be a plausible answer to balancing the competitive aspect a bit. So implementing Tera Preview, also in conjunction with banning Tera Blast. People don't think it will fix the problem but that in conjunction with Tera preview will be amazing so we don't have to worry about faking out real counters. Like when Kingambit teras into Fairy and uses Tera Blast on Great Tusk / Zamazenta is just overwhelming to be honest, it really breaks teams easily, it makes things a little bit easier to get over where I'm not going to be getting OHKOd but maybe I'll get 2HKO'd / 3HKO'd from Iron Head or whatever. Yeah IMO one restriction might not be enough, but yeah Tera is a 5, like I said before I don't care if it does or doesn't get banned because ultimately higher skilled players will adjust to it like we have been the last 7 months.
 
This is simply not true. Zamazenta can be forced to come in once in the midgame, so that it doesnt get the +1 from Dauntless Shield in the endgame. After this it just can't take on Tera Flying / Fairy at all, it takes too much

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Tera Flying Kingambit Iron Head vs. +2 0 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta: 148-175 (45.5 - 53.8%)

This means you can "try" to take on Flying / Fairy Kingambit 1 on 1, but not if its already at +2 or if you are trying to hard switch into it. This doesn't even consider Tera Blast Flying or Tera Blast Fairy (I spam this set)

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Tera Blast vs. +2 0 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta: 276-326 (84.9 - 100.3%)

Realistically Zamazenta at most forces Kingambit to tera more often compared to Great Tusk and live 1 extra turn, but this is only because the latter doesn't always run a Fighting move unlike Zamazenta.
Zama's most common set is Iron defense which easily beats Gambit unless you let getting a lot of free turns to SD it should lose, using Iron defense is 100% the play to do if Gambit's team haven't used tera yet.
 
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Zama's most common set is Iron defense which easily beats Gambit unless you let getting a lot of free turns to SD it should lose, using Iron defense is 100% the play to do if Gambit's team haven't used tera yet.
That is why the Zamazenta in my calcs is at +2, cause its coming in and clicking Iron Defense. It is not beating it easily at all
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
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Tera Suspect -> Re-introduce Volc back into the tier because its not broken without Tera -> Iron Valiant has another check now.

Problem solved.
Yeah but do we really want to wait until after the World Cup is over? I rather suspect something (now) thats not tera that's problematic and then wait until the World Cup is done so we can re-suspect Tera.
 
My votes:

:luvdisc: (Enjoyment) 1

I hate this metagame.

:zygarde: (Balance) 5

It's balanced if both players are using Hyper Offense and Kingambit, or both are not running Kingambit.

:dragonite: (Tera) Yes

Tera preview plz.

:slowbro-galar: Yes

Dumb luck-based element. Also ban Focus Band and similar.

:volcarona: 5

Retest this fucker so BO/Balance can have role compression please.

:kingambit: 5

I think this Pokemon has caused more 50/50s than any other, Tera or no Tera. It's insane.

:garganacl: 3

If we are going to ban a defensive Pokemon we need like 3 breakers gone and I'm not kidding. If Garganacl itself wasn't really good at breaking defensive teams too, I'd give it a 1.

:iron valiant: 2

I think with Volcarona it will be mostly fine, pain in the ass but bigger fish to fry honestly.

:sneasler: 1

yaawwwwwwwnnnnnn

:baxcalibur: 2

I don't like how good it is at breaking, its STABS are really really hard to stop, and with one Dragon Dance boost it needs very specific things to not auto-win. Still, nowhere near a suspect right now, but in the future I dunno.

:samurott-hisui: 5

Keep in mind this is 99% because of Ceaseless Edge otherwise this Pokemon is mid as fuck. It completely owns Hatterene cores, even shit like Jolly Choice Band Dragapult cannot kill it with Dragon Darts to stop it from getting one consistently

252 Atk Choice Band Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Samurott-Hisui: 278-330 (86.6 - 102.8%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO

I fucking hate this Pokemon I hate Spike stacking I hate Gholdengo. Speaking of,

"Is there anything else not already mentioned you would like to see the Council look into?"

:gholdengo:

I'm a Gholdengo hater. When it's gone one day, I will be there.

"Is there anyone you'd like to see fight in SV OU Fight Nights?"

:abomasnow: Barack Obama
 

Srn

Water (Spirytus - 96%)
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I hate Samur-H too, but I have softened my stance on it. Facing it is a nightmare, but using it is equally as annoying.
  • Not as bulky as Ting-Lu, so can't setup hazards against whatever it wants
  • Has to deal with 50/50s vs stuff like Tusk & any turn its not going for Ceaseless means you aren't using an OP mon
  • Ceaseless 90% accuracy is a massive issue. I wouldn't normally mention this, but in Ceaseless Edge's case, missing the move has massive ramifications since you miss out on important Spikes chip (which has absolutely mattered many games).
I do agree that Banning Samurott -H would be a net positive since Hatterene would be more reliable as hazard control. However, Samurott-H isn't even in the same ballpark as Ting-Lu when it comes to setting hazards, or Gholdengo when it comes to limiting hazard removal.

I'm also surprised the anti-Tera people don't even mention Tera Ghost contributing to the hazard issue. That's a way more legit reason to ban the mechanic over the 50/50 crap lmao (though in either case I am still against a ban).
It's been mentioned
Ting-Lu Terastilized into a Ghost-Type
0 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Ghost Ting-Lu: 146-172 (28.4 - 33.4%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO

It is disingenuous to act like this generation is not the worst it has ever been in OU
I rarely see any pro-unrestricted tera people complain about hazards though, so I choose not to point to tera ghost that often. It's not just on ting-lu by the way, look at how I use it here on heatran. I shouldn't be allowed to do this lol feels unhealthy.
 

luckie

unluckiest player
Yeah but do we really want to wait until after the World Cup is over? I rather suspect something (now) thats not tera that's problematic and then wait until the World Cup is done so we can re-suspect Tera.
Honestly, fair point. Especially considering if action gets taken on Tera, whether it be outright ban or preview, the problematic thing in question would likely get brought back down.
 
My Votes

I voted yes on Terastalization. Don't remember if it was 1-5 but if it was i put 5. Honestly a little disappointed as the phrasing in the question implies a suspect could end in Tera Preview which I think would be a colossal waste of time-preview is insignificant enough& Tera is bad enough that I think this can be "quick" passed rather than spending a month in suspect and seeing that it doesn't fix the problem (which it very well might not). Istill think best course of action is Preview for sure, then suspect with no-Tera ladder that ends in either ban or no ban. "Undisclosed Tera" is a unique smogon policy (due to team sheets in VGC) so imo there is 0 reason to preserve that unpredictability when we are certain it's an issue.

quick claw I voted yes. It's funny and not the worst thing in the world but doesn't have a place in a competitive game.

kingambit I voted 4. The way it can steal would be wins extremely easily and is so threatening so quickly is really a lot, especially in a Volcless world

Garganacl i gave a 2. I still really don't see the issue or what makes it worse than any other defensive mon. Salt Cure is strong but so is Toxic, Burn, etc. It's a bit of a momentum suck and can be taken advantage of. 2 instead of 1 just because others are so adamant about it and it is very good but maybe I should have voted 1 tbh.

Bax I gave 3. Not the worst thing in the world and relatively comparable to other sweepers but its very easy for it to set up and just end games. Losing the ability to become a fairywould make it 100% reasonable

Valiant I gave 2. Similar concern with Bax but it's so frail that powering through it tends to be a lot more doable, and like everyone's saying, it can't do all of its potentially threatening things at once

Sneasler is a 1. Dire claw is mathematically literally nothing special. Choosing an 80 power poison move in hopes of a proc so often leads to dead sneasler that it really doesn't get to hit dire claw that much and there's nothing making it worse than say Flame Body or Static.

Samurott I also gave 2. It can get spikes very easily and removal is difficult now but I don't think Samurott specifically contributes much to this issue. If we lose Samurott, Ting-lu usage rises and Spikes don't change.

Volcarona I wrote 3. With Tera it kind of is still broken but removing it didn't add too much to the tier. I think the ban was a little hasty and a very clear "this is for World Cup because the council wants it for World Cup" but i'm not rushing to add it back to a Tera metagame

I wrote in light clay. It's clear something on this survey needs to go (IMO Tera and maybe Kingambit) but if nothing does then removing light clay will make all the borderline things in this tier much more acceptable, including Tera
 
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Tera has to go ASAP. We can test a partial ban/restriction later down the road once the meta stabilizes more, but right now this metagame is awful, and Tera is largely to blame. Mons keep getting punted to ubers on the back of how strong they are with Tera, and a healthy metagame still hasn't materialized yet, it's always 'whose next' on the ban list. The scary thing to me is that the problem is Tera, but if Tera doesn't get banned then there's going to be a format freeze where nothing in and of itself is ban worthy, but the overall meta is trash, so tests are started but nothing gets banned because nothing's genuinely broken on it's own, but the meta never evolves and stays trash because nothing is changing.

Tera preview isn't even a good fix in and of itself. It cuts down on one of the more frustrating aspects of tera (the surprise tera to a problematic type) but the unpredictability is still there, and the extreme pressure on teambuilding is always there, because instead of your team having to cover 6 mons with 2-4 different sets across the tier, your team has to cover 6 mons, 2-4 sets, each with 2-4 viable different types that radically alter how you would interact with that mon.

Tera is honestly worse than dynamax at this point, because at least dynamax was honest about how insane it was. Tera is almost as unhealthy as dynamax, but is sneakier about it and somehow manages to convince people that it's not quite as bad. The irony here is that one of the main reasons dynamax got the boot is the exact trap that the council is falling to in this generation - if the mechanic is legal, there is no choice but to ban off abusers one after another, in an endless loop where a mon steps up after the last abuser was banned and gets banned itself. Hell the current survey has a number of mons on it whose eligibility for ubers would be heavily questionable if not for tera.

Really don't feel like any mon is bannable at this point simply because Tera's got to go, and that's going to change things so much that we'd have to re-suspect half the stuff banned under Tera anyways (volc/regi for sure at least). This point can be re-evaluated after tera goes, I'm sure something will still be unhealthy post-tera ban and it can be suspected then. If tera doesn't get banned, this whole gen's a wash and it's irrelevant.

Quick claw is frustrating, but it's not worth banning at this point. I think the biggest difference between it and previous mechanics like Sand Veil is that it really has to work every single time because the mons it's attached to inherently have other issues. Like SV garchomp could plow through half your team on it's own merits and rng its way through it's counters with SV. QC glowbro if it doesn't get quickclaw every turn it's still getting outsped and pounded by every mon on your team. You can make progress vs it even if your counters are now closer to checks. It's obnoxious to lose to, but I don't feel like it's actually as uncompetitive as stuff like evasion. It's also just vulnerable to stuff like priority, which prior banned mechanics were not.. SV didn't care about priority, swagplay only cared about priority on the very first turn, after which you were playing the same roulette as everyone else, king's rock abuse technically was vulnerable to priority (even if in practice it wasn't because most priority moves are physical and cloyster really likes that).
 
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Am I crazy for thinking that none of the mons in the survey are banworthy if we make tera type visible at team preview? Having that additional information during battles should make Volcarona and Kingambit manageable; rather than having to guess between 3+ potential types it becomes a 50/50 of whether the opponent terastallizes. This makes both formulating a game plan and making decisions late in battles more feasible. For the record, I completely oppose banning terastallization outright. I just think that we should consider restricting it before banning more mons from the tier. After that we can see how the meta develops and reevaluate later if something becomes overbearing.
 
Tera: No, adds variety to the meta and isn't inherently broken IMO. The anti-Tera crowd won't be happy with anything we come up with anyway. This will inform my decisions throughout the rest of the survey.

Quick Claw: No, bad gimmick is bad.

Volcarona: 2. Perhaps if we do end up restricting Tera it might not be as broken? Then again, it was oppressive back in gen 8 and nothing seems to have really changed for it besides Tera.

Kingambit: 5. Steals games far too easily, has very few consistent checks, and overcentralizes the meta to an unhealthy degree. People use Great Tusk because of the excellent role compression it provides, while Kingambit is just absolutely unmatched in the one or two roles it has.

Garganacl: 3 or 4, can't remember which. Is it unbreakable? No, not even with Tera. Is it annoying? Extremely. You can't status it because of Purifying Salt, you can't stall it out because of Salt Cure, so the best thing you can do is try to whittle it down with strong attacks. The only reason I havem't found it to be as big an issue as most? I run a silly Alolan Raichu set that can outheal Salt Cure, and even that is by no means consistent.

Sneasler: 5. Used it, it's nuts. SD Unburden sets outspeed and rip through almost everything, Dire Claw's Sleep chance can be absolutely game breaking, and it isn't even that hard to get it going.

Valiant: 4. In a tier with very few answers to its STAB combo, Valiant can just kinda do whatever it wants. There is almost nothing that can consistently counter every Valiant set, and it's one of the Pokémon that abuses Tera to its most unhealthy degree.

Baxcalibur: 1. It's strong but not overbearing.

Samurott-Hisui: 2. In combination with Gholdengo it's infuriating, but by itself? It's just good.

Other things:
Brought up Cocaine Bear, since while it's slow it's also stupidly consistent at taking at least one thing down. Also I am kicking myself for forgetting Gholdengo, since its presence makes hazard stack far too overbearing. Especially now that Samurott-H and Kleavor are legal.
 
Metgame enjoyment: I think I put a 4/10? Kingambit and Sneasler suck the fun out of every match they're in and every time Tera is used in a match by either myself or the opponent it always feels cheap. Without that, I think we'd have something pretty great actually.

Metagame balance: Around 6/10. See above.

Tera: Yes. Action of some kind is very clearly needed. Tera demonstrably makes this metagame worse and even proponents of it will admit to how it makes matchups unpredictable and you can't account for being blindsided by it. The only reason half the pro-Tera crowd is pro-Tera is because people are innately resistant to change. I have confidence that if Tera is banned, some people will stop playing, but a lot more will realize that it's actually improved the metagame.

Volcarona: 5. Don't even bother with a suspect. Just put it in OU again. If I'm wrong and Volcarona actually is super broken, we suspect it afterwards.

Kingambit: 4. I don't like that this thing doesn't even need Tera to muscle through checks. Might still need a suspect even if Tera goes. It's only not a 5 because Zamazenta stayed in OU and we now have more than one counter to it.

Garganacl: 2. This thing is still really strong, but I don't know if that strength is unhealthy now. We've just got a lot more pressing things to deal with right now.

Sneasler: 5. Dire Claw has absolutely no place in a competitive metagame. If it were on a much weaker mon I'd let it slide, but Sneasler is a top 10 mon this generation and one of the most threatening offensive sweepers we have. Being able to fish for cheesy Sleep and Burn procs on top of that is laughable.

Iron Valiant: 2. It's certainly strong, but I don't think it's so broken that something needs to be done about it. Especially if Volcarona drops back to OU and we get a new check for it.

Baxcalibur: 1. Why was this even on the survey? I don't see any timeline where Bax is overpowered, especially with Tera restrictions.

H-Samurott: 1. Very strong, but nowhere near banworthy. It's really only the crowd that thinks hazards this generation themselves are broken that wants him gone, which is not a crowd I am part of. Albeit I really hope the DLC gives us more Defog distribution and Rapid Spin users.

Quick Claw: 1. I would have voted a 0 if I could. Everyone please stop hyping up a meme team that demonstrates how good screens are more than anything. It would be as good or better if it ran normal viable items. I do love that team and respect the ingenuity, but for the love of god do not try to put Quick Claw on the same priority level as actual problems with the tier.
 
Metagame enjoyment: 0/10 this meta is more unplayable than ever with people started using quick claw and screens

is really so hard ban an item that doesn't help nothing and only add more rng? smogon one time used to balance a game made by game freak, now it look like vgc has better rules overall
 
Last Respects Houndstone moment
For real, if gf added the move to a couple shitmons we could get the move banned, and keep Hamurott. The council should really look into making this exception for the health of metagame. I get why they do it, but rules are meant to be broken. Like, stealing is bad but if you’re trying to feed your family then it can be kinda okay in moderation.
 
For real, if gf added the move to a couple shitmons we could get the move banned, and keep Hamurott. The council should really look into making this exception for the health of metagame. I get why they do it, but rules are meant to be broken. Like, stealing is bad but if you’re trying to feed your family then it can be kinda okay in moderation.
Putting aside whether or not Ceaseless Edge is banworthy, why would making this exception be healthy? H-Samurott's whole niche is tied to that move. It's got no place in OU without it, or at the very least, it's got much less of one. Banning the mon wholesale would be essentially the same result as banning the move since the mon has nothing to contribute without it.
 
nothing is wrong with ceaseless edge lmao, is there something wrong with stone axe too?
Ceaseless edge can stack spikes, also most -not all but most- mons weak to rock run boots to stop Stealth Rock. The lack of spinners this gen combined with gholdengo blocking most hazard removal make hazards a bitch.
Putting aside whether or not Ceaseless Edge is banworthy, why would making this exception be healthy? H-Samurott's whole niche is tied to that move. It's got no place in OU without it, or at the very least, it's got much less of one. Banning the mon wholesale would be essentially the same result as banning the move since the mon has nothing to contribute without it.
Seems like you didn’t read the previous post; do that before continuing. It regards great Tusk.
 
:volcarona: retest: 2, at least as long as Tera is around. Flame Body (punishes physical counterplay) + Quiver Dance (limits special counterplay) + Tera (exacerbates both previous issues while expanding its offensive options) makes this thing plain unhealthy. Folks can rehash the glory days of the MU Moth and talk up how borderline Volc has been its whole existence as much as they want, that doesn't mean it inherently deserves a place in the tier.

:kingambit:: 4. That bulk with that ability and powerful priority has no place in a Tera meta. As I said the other day, it doesn't even need to save its Tera for the late game "one free turn" bs. I spent some time running it with Tera Fairy Tera Blast, Kowtow, Sucker, and SD the past few days. Especially with Healing Wish support (which also powers up Supreme Overlord) you can bring it in and Tera early and it will just claim mons throughout the match because there's just not much that can keep it from setting up.

:Baxcalibur:: 3. See nearly everything I said about Gambit. Needs setup more (since it doesn't get boosts just by existing and it struggles to slot in its weaker priority) but also less reliant on guesswork. Always a threat to runaway with a match if it can avoid your first best effort at stopping it from getting a boost.

:Garganacl:: 3. Purifying Salt + Salt Cure + Recover alone could be enough to make this the first viable defensive Rock Type in history. A defensive mon that is straight immune to status and can stack unblocking passive damage is nuts. The option to Tera Water/Fairy/occasionally Ghost can make this thing a beast to take down, especially Curse sets, which are less hindered by substitute. Also, Tera Blast > EQ on curse sets. Try it. Fairy and Water both have only a couple of resists, and in both cases, one of those is wasted by Salt Cure damage. And if you're cursing up enough to be clicking EQ on something, you've probably already clicked Tera.

:Iron-Valiant: :Sneasler:: 2. Both top tier cleaners on opposite ends of the versatility spectrum. Sneasler is far and away the best Unburden Sweeper we've ever had, but the only real question is "How Does this thing want to activate Unburden"? Is it Balloon, White Herb, Focus Sash, Terrain Seed, or what? Beyond that, it's just SD, CC, Acro, Fire Punch/Night Slash/Shadow Claw/Tera Blast (unless it's the rare Poison Touch Scarf set). Valiant, on the other hand, can run a thousand sets: physical, special, or mixed with your choice of coverage, choice sets with Trick on either spectrum, encore + setup, DBond, whatever.

Both can be frustrating to face if they get an opening to set up, especially in the late game, but manageable if you preserve your counterplay. Both fold to even neutral hits offensively, while defensively, they both hate Phazing (since their speed boosts are one time only, and repeated hazard damage is highly costly), and they both hate status (especially para) to set them up to be revenged. The only thing that makes either questionable, imo, is Tera-boosted offense.

:Samurott-Hisui:: 1. It's fundamentally changed the lead MU since it can't be taunted or bounced, but it's been super manageable to me. Lots of viable Dark Resists around. Lots of fast U-Turns you can lead to weaken it and bring in Tusk or whatever at the same time. Definitely meta defining, but probably not any more than Glimmora.

:Quick-claw: Get this thing out of here. Not remotely broken, but definitely anti-competitive and adds nothing to the game except lolz. I'll link back to my previous thoughts on what makes it troublesome and why banning Quick Claw is different than banning other RNG elements.

Tera: As you can probably tell by now, I'm ready for Tera to go. I've had fun with this mechanic. It enables some cool options in the builder and in-game. Still, I really don't think it belongs in a "serious" competitive game. It makes every match too fishy, broadens the viability gap between tiers of mons, and encourages a constant series of micro affordable that make it impossible for the meta to settle. This naturally pushes play styles to the extremes, since there's never a known threat list for balance to build around for long enough to matter.

I'm certainly game to try Tera Preview to see how much it mitigates these issues. I certainly believe that it would reduce some of the in-match strain by enabling players to better preserve the necessary checks and turning plays into actual 50/50s instead of not knowing if you even have the needed coverage to handle the threat in front of you. But I don't see how Tera Preview can possibly resolve the instability that infinite options presents and how impossible that is to account for in the builder. Tera Preview keeps us in this HO/Stall arms race that makes high ladder a chore to play.

On that note, I wish the question on ladder rank had an option for "I was briefly top 250 and then got bored of bashing myself into the same five basic teams over and over again so I went back to building terrible meme shit and tilted all the way to 1300, where I'm perfectly happy, thank you very much"
 
Seems like you didn’t read the previous post; do that before continuing. It regards great Tusk.
I have read the post you're responding to. My question does not explicitly confirm I have not, so kind of a weird assumption. I just don't think it's correct. I think banning individual moves that only a single mon has leads to a pretty dangerous precedent to set, where instead of being able to just point to problematic elements, we have to second-guess ourselves. Like, maybe Annihilape would be balanced and a beneficial presence in the metagame if you just banned Rage Fist. If we establish once that we will ban a mon's best move if they're the only user of it, then from every potential ban on we have to ask that again, and we start trying to draw a bunch of unclear lines and start needing complex bans. It's too specific. I think that's less healthy than a theory about H-Samurott maybe cutting back on Garg and Tusk usage rates.

Edit so this isn't a double post: I also do not see how H-Samurott losing Ceaseless Edge is supposed to increase the use of other Rapid Spin users. The reason everyone uses Tusk is because the other three users ranked in OU lack its incredible role compression and attributes. Tusk's usage was never below 60%, even before HOME when it didn't have to contend with H-Samurott.
 
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I have read the post you're responding to. My question does not explicitly confirm I have not, so kind of a weird assumption. I just don't think it's correct. I think banning individual moves that only a single mon has leads to a pretty dangerous precedent to set, where instead of being able to just point to problematic elements, we have to second-guess ourselves. Like, maybe Annihilape would be balanced and a beneficial presence in the metagame if you just banned Rage Fist. If we establish once that we will ban a mon's best move if they're the only user of it, then from every potential ban on we have to ask that again, and we start trying to draw a bunch of unclear lines and start needing complex bans. It's too specific. I think that's less healthy than a theory about H-Samurott maybe cutting back on Garg and Tusk usage rates.

Edit so this isn't a double post: I also do not see how H-Samurott losing Ceaseless Edge is supposed to increase the use of other Rapid Spin users. The reason everyone uses Tusk is because the other three users ranked in OU lack its incredible role compression and attributes. Tusk's usage was never below 60%, even before HOME when it didn't have to contend with H-Samurott.
Having Hamurott deals with GT because of the OHKO it forces with hydro pump. Hamurott likely wouldn’t become unviable if it lost Edge, we’re at a lack of Knock users right now and Hamurott has knock. Sharpness is also a great ability that pairs with with a lot of moves. Besides, if it doesn’t work out we just ban Hamurott entirely and sweep the idea of banning sig moves under the table. An experiment wouldn’t hurt, would it?
Separate question to council and leaders,
Finchinator ausma Ruft AndViet ima FlamingVictini TPP Star
What did y’all put on the survey (if you did), and if not, what would you have put? Curious what the top has to say.
 
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