Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[Hot N Cold]

Kingambit its the worse for me because is broken but also very consistent at that, its the one that deserved to be suspect the most imo
some others may be broken like Sneasler, Zamazenta or even Iron Valiant but in many games they're hit or miss because they're more matchup reliant (either easier to find hard counters in the long run while playing a game, or have 4mss syndrome like valiant). But with Kingambit you only have to keep your Tera and preserve it as your last mon. You have 5 mons to support it with hazards, lures, screens, healing wish and more.

Kingambit beats many teams even with several Dark resist because you not only need several Dark resist but also mons that can potentially HKO back it and their most common Tera, for example Tera Fairy Specs Enamorus vs Kingambit and their common Tera (Flying, Dark, Ghost, Fairy). And even in that case if Kingambit gets +2 you still loses.

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 311-366 (107.6 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 258-305 (89.2 - 105.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

For this reason currently Substitute is a very popular move, Enamorous, Walking Wake, Iron Month, among others use it to deal better with Kingambit because it seems that carrying multiple resistance to Dark is not enough. Strong priorities moves are another secondary way to check Kingambit specially with a resist Dark Tera. But seems overall that requires too much effort to deal well with Kingambit, requires several strategies under the same team to deal properly with it.

Kingambit and the fairies, Iron Valiant & Enamorus shapes the current metagame while Great Tusk & Dragapult are too valuable and adds lot of utility to any kind of team.

 

[Karxrida]

This is honestly the first time Genesect has any business ever being unbanned after it was banned in BW. It had not received any material nerfs aside from the very small Hidden Power Base Power nerf in XY and with the Steel-type typing n no longer resisting Dark and Ghost-type attacks. Testing Genesect this gen makes a hell of a lot more sense than testing Magearna this gen, which was obviously going to be extremely broken. Genesect will probably still be broken, but it deserves a test considering Magearna got one, which is much more effective at ending games on the spot than Genesect.

Genesect also doesn't appreciate the lacking hazard control for U-turn spam and can't really afford to run Boots. It's down to just Scarf and the occasional Expert Belt lure, making it far more predictable.

 

[TH1N3 H4MM3R]

I can get behind a Genesect unban. It lost Shift Gear and Extreme Speed, which makes it less of a force than it was in the past. Now it won't be doing endgame sweeps as easily or revenge-killing everything in the sun. Granted, maybe Tera will make it too strong, but if Zamazenta got a chance in OU, so should Genesect given the movepool nerfs.

iirc it also will lose rock polish, so it has no way to boost its speed w/out holding choice scarf, unless you want to use flame charge/quick attack for some godforsaken reason lol. im p sure it loses blaze kick too.

 

[SnackWasTaken]

I take 24 hours off of screens. I come back to QUICK CLAW. WHO THE FUCK STARTED THIS.

 

[artificialdeath]

I take 24 hours off of screens. I come back to QUICK CLAW. WHO THE FUCK STARTED THIS.

Oddly the second time this gen a Delibird has helped wreak havoc on the OU tier

 

[Turtleye_]

If you've been laddering around 1900-2000 lately, you might have noticed a heinous trend going on. I was blessed by god's immaculate light a few days ago and constructed one of my most successful teams yet, which allowed me to break into the top 30 today (proof of peak). Even renowned players have folded to this strategy (or adopted it, albeit just for a few games), I'm talking of course about...

MONOCLAW BABYYYYYYYY

​

"So what is monoclaw ?"

You may be familiar with the held item quick claw. It's an item that allows a pokemon holding it to have a 20% chance to move first (in its priority bracket) each turn. At first sight, a complete gimmick, unreliable and a waste of an item. BUT. What if you go... further beyond ? By using 5 quick claw abusers on the same team, you end up having a very high chance to get at least one or two crucial procs each game. These procs will grant you massive advantage whenever they happen, especially if you employ hard hitting abusers such as Iron Hands or Ursaluna. When combining this with a screens setter (in my opinion grimmsnarl is preferable to dragapult in this context as you really enjoy taunt to shut down other leads + the bulk is also nice), you increase the chances to get procs even further.

"But isn't this just luck reliant garbage ?"

Not really, if you build it correctly. Basically you're just making a Screens Bulky Offense team, which is a very dangerous playstyle in its own right, especially in the very HO oriented ladder meta, but replacing all the items with quick claw to abuse the chance of just gaining massive uncounterable advantage each turn, that stacks up with screens and the fact that all your mons are extremely bulky. You should aim to build a team that is prepared to handle all threats in the meta, as you would normally, and which doesn't rely on luck but is simply boosted by it. In that way, even if you don't get any procs at all (which again, is very unlikely since you have 5 abusers and lots of turns to get those procs), you can still win just by playing well. A lot of the featured replays I will provide are actually games where no procs happened.

"Ok, I'm in. What are the mons that work best with this ?"

As stated earlier, you're building Screens Bulky Offense. So you'll obviously need a screen setter, and I've found grimmsnarl to be the best for this, as it matches up well versus a lot of common leads (Especially Samurott-H which is 2HKOed by uninvested Spirit Break and will barely chip grimmsnarl in the process of getting spikes up as you 4x resist ceaseless edge) and has more longevity than Dragapult meaning it can come back in to get screens back up or even kill some weakened mons later in the game.

Because we're leading Grimm most games, we want mons that can cleanly beat the mons that try to abuse it, namely Kingambit. Several mons fit the bill, but the most notable is Iron Hands, which can freely SD up on even +3 gambit behind reflect as its unique fighting/electric double type resists both of gambit's stabs. You are then free to OHKO it with Wild Charge no matter the tera type they turn into should they decide to stay, or just blow something back if they switch. Iron Hands also easily beats all Great Tusks variant when behind screens (yes, even bulk up). You can always pack a tera-type such as Ghost, Fairy or Flying to guarantee this particular match-up.

Other notable mons that switch in on Gambit and scare it out effectively even at +2 or +3 behind reflect include your own Gambit (if you run low kick) and possibly Slither Wing and Copperajah (althought I haven't test them out yet and Iron Hands definitely seems like a better answer than these two.)

All the other mons you want to use follow the same archetype : Extremely bulky when invested in HP, with a set up move and the capacity to OHKO most of the tier after a boost. Here's a quick list of potential abusers, with the ones I succesfully used behind highlighted :

Baxcalibur (Swords Dance), Brute Bonnet (Growth), Crabominable (Bulk Up), Enamorus-Therian (Calm Mind), Glaceon (Calm Mind), Glastrier (Swords Dance), Hoopa-Unbound or Regular (Nasty Plot), Iron Hands (Swords Dance), Iron Thorns (Swords Dance), Kingambit (Swords Dance), Meloetta (Swords Dance or Calm Mind), Rillaboom (Swords Dance), Slither Wing (Bulk Up), Slowbro-Galar (Nasty Plot + Quick Draw for added proc chances), Ursaluna (Swords Dance).

By building your team with such bulky, strong hitting abusers, you can ensure all of these would easily trade for 1 to 2 mons while under screens, and from there on, every turn you'll have a 20% chance to pull ahead and get one more "use" out of your pokemon.

Replay Compendium​

Here's all the replays me and my partner in crime Glowbro's Paradise got with this playstyle. I went ahead and classified them in terms of number of procs, just to show you that the majority of games was not decided by quick claw procs, or not by a statistically abnormal number of them.

0-2 RELEVANT QUICK CLAW PROCS (Normal/Expected Odds)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1891372258-40gzvv9g1l2xrg27psakclo0hh54ak4pw vs yestrday
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1891581905 vs jeanmilapipe
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1891588764-4hpdw3hjgymj5sj8eolr9b6rcdmpditpw vs abr fan 2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1889947307-26waq3vc4zopcr3glahvkae94mao5zppw vs Storm Zone
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1890421246-iysewotnaso19pqwh4ru80b7iqcdt8opw vs VertXXX
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1890473935-g499y1au6lsnuzfgenzmw46n4rgexu5pw vs LeBarBURR2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1890484669-kkezjqkru6tfppsotjqxn82522wpoazpw vs VertXXX
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1891129416-9mxxuoymezac0v6fhjylxud43ssgy4gpw vs Sufys12 (GRIMMSNARL SHAMONE SPECIAL)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1891152028 vs in NY I mollywhop (rain + 0 procs)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1891550436-usrzpsrficl6ppq22rsq62xk2k6hwazpw vs Melbourne Weather
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1891158079 vs oxbt
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1891203031 vs Shawsong (vs stall)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1891277166 vs Jontrendline (crit didnt matter, still had other mons to beat cress)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1891286991-s7mt326lu2r8n4jyawslnh6n7sle7umpw vs TRIPLE WHAMMY
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1891606748-lm3lotd3b1mf0cuuo0ofpow3hdx2np0pw vs VertXXX redux
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1891746459-rogmxt1oyrxxfhc8qbqked5itqhu1cgpw WeirdHamster vs Srn
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1891773784-04ayf5jvyf5sobqrz5vu9uw6aq1u52opw vs KingGhidorah
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1891764451 0ze vs Omari P
https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen9ou-1891544074-ucf8nok33kyfb2ngkchspbcxwm41fqtpw vs sponsored by prime

3-4 RELEVANT QUICK CLAW PROCS (Sheisty Odds)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1890429416 vs Swiscool
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1891556793 vs machokeartist
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1891742020-8tichg9ufpbc1mpplyfgtozlgcmi344pw WeirdHamster vs Gabimaru Hallow


5+ RELEVANT QUICK CLAW PROCS (DEMONIC XXX IMPOSSIBLE ROBBERY ODDS)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1891162063-x4l6yi50kenslrm8d5nxvkeisfqt6rupw vs High Impulse
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1891615663-q16wb8wn7c3x6z6a6lfbgseucd7hbctpw vs VertXXX reredux
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1891595478-msxstlx59hcpbgphvxgq710ct7es6wopw vs Ojama (my bro gets a bit too excited, forgive him)

VERT VS STAREAL. IN THE SSNL. THIS IS NOT A DRILL.
​

You can see the vast majority of these only have a max of 2 procs all over the game, thus proving my point that this kind of team is not luck reliant, but just improved by getting a statiscally normal amount of quick claw procs over the course of a game. With that being said, thanks for reading this and have fun on the ladder :)

POKEPASTE FOR THE OG MONOCLAW I MADE AND USED: https://pokepast.es/0a23290ce52c5817 (If you guys want more specific details on sets and stuff like that I'm planning on maybe rmting this, so stay tuned for that.)

​

Oh god no please no

Towards the end of SSOU, I was running a QCQD HO team to gather replays bc some friends wanted to make a post about how stupid it is and it triggers repressed memories

I made a post about it back then (the discussion afterwards led to the topic being blacklisted, please dont do that again). But tl;dr is that speed is really strong in Pokemon and being able to flip the turn order has a massive impact. It being tied to a 20% luck item is pretty frustrating for both players, because the QC player is effectively itemless for 80% of the time, but when that 20% happens the opposing player can't really prepare for it. There's plenty of items that don't give always away what they do, like berries or type boosting items (this can be calced, though) or covert cloak, so being hit by an unexpected Quick Claw can possibly mean losing the game right then and there, depending on the state of the game & team matchup.

It's not banworthy imo because the opportunity cost is too big, but it sure is annoying as fuck. It is pretty uncompetitive, but not enough I think. But that was SSOU, maybe SVOU is different, and you've clearly done a lot more testing & exploring than me (I just got handed a team lol)

 

[Lazy Ares]

After having seen some wcup games and having played many other games, I still dont know how it's possible that volcarona got qb just for Tera (don't get me wrong, it was banwhorty or at least, it deserved a suspect) or Zamazenta (is being suspected at the moment) but the council didn't put an eye on Kingambit or Garganacl.

That monster restrict the builder process af. You can check it with Great Tusk (>50% usage and I'm sure kingambit is one of the most important reasons for it), Zamazenta (could be banned in a few hours), Landorus (hoping kingambit doesn't SD and Tera flying), Iron Valiant, Dondozo, Iron Hands (UUBL) and Tauros-Paldea-Aqua and Quaquaval (both currently in UU). In a meta without so few defog/rapid spin users is too easy to chip its checks and they don't have reliable recover moves (except rest). Not to mention the 50/50 it generates in battle (25/25/25/25 if the opponent has not used Tera yet)
The only good thing Kingambit does to SV OU is check the ghost spam. It should be suspected (and banned) sooner than later.

Some wcup examples:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-699348
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-698841

Most annoying-not broken mon. Salt cure is still annoying. 1/8 each turn or 1/4 if you are using a water or steel type, even if Garg isn't in field. It forces you to use Covert Cloak (only good enough on Gholdengo bc its typing and recover) or hit it hard super effective (Great Tusk, Landorus, Walking Wake...), but Tera can solve that.
I don't think Garg is broken but Salt Cure is. Maybe, in a meta without Tera this mon is just fine, but I prefer Tera to stay (with some restriction) than Garganacl.

 

[MrE]

All this crying about QC is quite funny, give it a few days and the meta will adapt to it and it won't find itself being all that consistent imo.

 

[incorolla]

Quick Claw is not broken, although it did let me sweep with a Hypno, so there's that

In all seriousness there's wayyyy bigger fish to fry atm

 

[G-Luke]

Watching people spend days screaming about Scald being dumb and broken and forcing everyone to run only fat baalnce (Mind you, Gen 5 and 7 exists) while simultaneously claiming that they prefer facing Quick Claw spam instead of 1 Scald using Water on the opposing team tells me how stupid the playerbase of this meta is.

 

[Narmy]

Can we ban accuracy while we're at it, it's rng and not a testament to ones skill
I can be trusted with dynamic punch

 

[Eeveeto]

Watching people spend days screaming about Scald being dumb and broken and forcing everyone to run only fat baalnce (Mind you, Gen 5 and 7 exists) while simultaneously claiming that they prefer facing Quick Claw spam instead of 1 Scald using Water on the opposing team tells me how stupid the playerbase of this meta is.

Scald is a dumb move that fits in almost every team and everyone is able to make it work.

Quick Claw is a dumb item that fits in very specific teams with only specific Mons that can make use of it and only some specific players can make it work somewhat consistently.

My position with these kind of things is simple: if everyone is able to abuse something that is broken/luck reliant/unhealthy, I want it out. If only some people are able to use with consistent results something broken/luck reliant/unhealthy, then I want it in the meta to frustrate the dominant players that are not able to use that strategy well.

 

[Mega Breloom]

Quick Claw is a dumb item that fits in very specific teams with only specific Mons that can make use of it and only some specific players can make it work somewhat consistently.

Also, if you look at the replays, the procs barely matter in most of the games, they just made some games easier but with the positioning they had they were going to win anyway. That says the team can work even without items or work with any item instead of quick claw if you wanna to optimize the team (basically like Gambit, put any item on it and will be good). Quick claw and screens against stall are going to be totally useless but that team still has high chances of winning if played well, while also does well against the standard teams because all those fat mons win most of the trades against offensive threads and don't allow to set up stuff like Valiant or Kingambit.
The team is just good against the meta and probably would be better with other items (ursa with flame orb for example). Quick claw isn't what is carrying this team or is unhealthy at all.

 

[ant4456]

There is no reason to keep an item that has no use other than to fish for random odds.

 

[Vengeance417]

If anything, that mono claw team goes to show how good screens + mons like Kingambit are in this meta. The fact Kingambit is able to still Cleave (lol) through teams without needing a consistent item proves how much of a dominating force it can be. Its moves backed by max power Supreme Overlord are dumb even without a boosting item. That team would be so much worse off without both it and screens.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

There is no reason to keep an item that has no use other than to fish for random odds.

I mean in a competitive environment where glowbro can pull some stupid shit with quick claw and ruin a competitive tournament hell no. Its just like the whole king's rock issue from last gen.

 

[ant4456]

If anything, that mono claw team goes to show how good screens + mons like Kingambit are in this meta. The fact Kingambit is able to still Cleave (lol) through teams without needing a consistent item proves how much of a dominating force it can be. Its moves backed by max power Supreme Overlord are dumb even without a boosting item. That team would be so much worse off without both it and screens.

I wouldn't even care if Quick Claw was a terrible, 1% chance. I'd still say it should be banned.

 

[Pando067]

what happened to make quick claw banworthy suddenly??

 

[pika pal]

Watching people spend days screaming about Scald being dumb and broken and forcing everyone to run only fat baalnce (Mind you, Gen 5 and 7 exists) while simultaneously claiming that they prefer facing Quick Claw spam instead of 1 Scald using Water on the opposing team tells me how stupid the playerbase of this meta is.

I do think it's a bit disingenuous to reduce it to "1 Scald using Water". Disclaimer here that I think the Quick Claw usage is funny to watch but don't have an actual stake in discussing action against it.

Yes, most games would probably have one Pokemon using Scald (though I have seen RMT's and comps in past gens that could have 2), but on the Builder stage, you needed to prepare for basically any Meta-Relevant Water type besides Tapu Fini potentially carrying the move (and that was just assuming Fini didn't end up on the field with its Terrain gone or against an ungrounded target), both offensive and defensive. That is a significantly larger pool to account for in building considering the move essentially turns the Floor into Eggshells for most Physical Attackers at next-to-no cost for the Scald user (Keldeo frequently ran it because the Chip was more than Surf's power would add over a game, and Defensives only care about the Debuff anyway). This feels like the kind of mentality that balloons into arguing for overbearing Pokemon to stay because they have one or two forms of counterplay, ignoring the effect that building for that has on handling the rest of the not-broken-but-relevant tier.

To preempt a sarcastic comment I KNOW someone will make, as is the nature of a lot of posters in this thread lately: This is not me saying Scald is an element deserving of a ban or restriction. This is me arguing that some comments are downplaying how annoying and constraining an effect Scald has/had on team building for what at most seems like "gotcha" moments on other topics (be it other controversial mechanics like Tera/Quick Claw or just unnecessary jabs at the player base that muddy any actual point the commenters are making).

In the Quick Claw replays by comparison, the procs occur but it's not like playing on the chance of the QC proc is riskless: the play was in several cases an ideal one that was improved by going first but not necessarily better only in that scenario. It's something a lot of these mons can throw on to gamble with their item slot without always being a gimmick, and by nature it doesn't really change the Counterplay to them or other members of the Meta due to its unreliability outside of already-advantageous match-ups. Quick Claw as a "major" item of a mon/team rather than a one-off gimmick feels like a "win more" item: once in a while it'll genuinely get a pivotal play change, but most other times it doesn't really make a "bad" turn into a good one so much as a good one becoming "more good."

 

[Fenghuang]

I do think it's a bit disingenuous to reduce it to "1 Scald using Water". Disclaimer here that I think the Quick Claw usage is funny to watch but don't have an actual stake in discussing action against it.

Yes, most games would probably have one Pokemon using Scald (though I have seen RMT's and comps in past gens that could have 2), but on the Builder stage, you needed to prepare for basically any Meta-Relevant Water type besides Tapu Fini potentially carrying the move (and that was just assuming Fini didn't end up on the field with its Terrain gone or against an ungrounded target), both offensive and defensive. That is a significantly larger pool to account for in building considering the move essentially turns the Floor into Eggshells for most Physical Attackers at next-to-no cost for the Scald user (Keldeo frequently ran it because the Chip was more than Surf's power would add over a game, and Defensives only care about the Debuff anyway). This feels like the kind of mentality that balloons into arguing for overbearing Pokemon to stay because they have one or two forms of counterplay, ignoring the effect that building for that has on handling the rest of the not-broken-but-relevant tier.

Keldeo definitely should not have gotten it, but other than the bullshit that is gen5ou the counters to scald users are mostly the same. Slow pivots, burn absorbers, water immune, or special attackers. It was constraining in that you had to prepare for not being able to switch in your physical attackers against bulky waters willy nilly, but that really wasn't a huge constraint imo. I get why people find it kinda bothersome, but the reason isn't because of the teambuilder I don't think. It's because it just feels bad to some people that rng effects can be that swingy, and quick claw is even worse in that regard. I don't personally dislike scald and qc even less, but I get why people don't like them and it isn't because they're too restrictive in team builder, or at least that's not the vibe I get.

 

[Narmy]

what happened to make quick claw banworthy suddenly??

Copius amounts of skill issue

 

[Beaf Cultist]

monoclaw is just a symptom of overall meta trends. if fat (read:stall. how tf does standard monoclaw break tera dozo+pex?) were more common, monoclaw would still be a gimmick, but you know why fat isn’t more common? tera. it all comes back to tera. i really can’t understand how people still try to defend tera when the OU meta is as godawful as it is right now. like, this is clearly the centralizing factor??? very clearly the source of the problem???

anyway, for anyone looking for an SV OU meta without tera, come check out Vaporemons :)
it’s a reprisal of the pet mod Joltemons from last gen, and while we’re only one slate in, the immediate Tera ban followed by the addition of Tera Shard (an item that turns a Pokemon into its Tera type, but like, actually turns it into that type. So you lose your old STABs and it doesn’t activate Tera Blast. on the positive side tho, it’s unkoffable!) have drastically changed the meta (in my opinion for the better. Screens are back to being the cheese playstyle they were always meant to be). Would love to have some more people playing and exploring the meta, so please do stop by if it sounds interesting :)

 

[G-Luke]

Scald is a dumb move that fits in almost every team and everyone is able to make it work.

Quick Claw is a dumb item that fits in very specific teams with only specific Mons that can make use of it and only some specific players can make it work somewhat consistently.

My position with these kind of things is simple: if everyone is able to abuse something that is broken/luck reliant/unhealthy, I want it out. If only some people are able to use with consistent results something broken/luck reliant/unhealthy, then I want it in the meta to frustrate the dominant players that are not able to use that strategy well.

Personally I don't really care if people dislike a move or not. I'm just pointing out how silly it is to be making claims like high Scald distribution forces metagames to be structured a certain way, when history clearly shows otherwise. And yeah, alot of Pokemon knows Scald. How many Scald users are u realistically adding onto the average team? 2 at most, unless ur stall. And stallbreakers that are easily crippled status of any kind are traditionally not good at stallbreaking. So yes, I think the arguments being lobbied are stupid. And I fail to understand how anyone can't see otherwise.

I do think it's a bit disingenuous to reduce it to "1 Scald using Water". Disclaimer here that I think the Quick Claw usage is funny to watch but don't have an actual stake in discussing action against it.

Yes, most games would probably have one Pokemon using Scald (though I have seen RMT's and comps in past gens that could have 2), but on the Builder stage, you needed to prepare for basically any Meta-Relevant Water type besides Tapu Fini potentially carrying the move (and that was just assuming Fini didn't end up on the field with its Terrain gone or against an ungrounded target), both offensive and defensive. That is a significantly larger pool to account for in building considering the move essentially turns the Floor into Eggshells for most Physical Attackers at next-to-no cost for the Scald user (Keldeo frequently ran it because the Chip was more than Surf's power would add over a game, and Defensives only care about the Debuff anyway). This feels like the kind of mentality that balloons into arguing for overbearing Pokemon to stay because they have one or two forms of counterplay, ignoring the effect that building for that has on handling the rest of the not-broken-but-relevant tier.

To preempt a sarcastic comment I KNOW someone will make, as is the nature of a lot of posters in this thread lately: This is not me saying Scald is an element deserving of a ban or restriction. This is me arguing that some comments are downplaying how annoying and constraining an effect Scald has/had on team building for what at most seems like "gotcha" moments on other topics (be it other controversial mechanics like Tera/Quick Claw or just unnecessary jabs at the player base that muddy any actual point the commenters are making).

In the Quick Claw replays by comparison, the procs occur but it's not like playing on the chance of the QC proc is riskless: the play was in several cases an ideal one that was improved by going first but not necessarily better only in that scenario. It's something a lot of these mons can throw on to gamble with their item slot without always being a gimmick, and by nature it doesn't really change the Counterplay to them or other members of the Meta due to its unreliability outside of already-advantageous match-ups. Quick Claw as a "major" item of a mon/team rather than a one-off gimmick feels like a "win more" item: once in a while it'll genuinely get a pivotal play change, but most other times it doesn't really make a "bad" turn into a good one so much as a good one becoming "more good."

You're missing the point. You can argue about teambuilding strain that Scald provides all one wants, but at the end of the day, it's as simple to account for as Set Up sweepers, hazards and strong Pokemon in general. It's not some wholy unique property that is so distinct that it requires dedicated counterplay for everything involved, teams naturally have built in checks to Scald who are good if Scald is present or not. Glowking, Toxapex, Amoong are all examples here, as all of these Pokemon are pretty solid switch ins to moves like Scald in Gen 8, and Scald isn't present in Gen 9, but are all still pretty great pokemon for the most part.

Now let's look at Quick Claw. You prep for Quick Claw in the teambuilder by........

You answer Quick Claw spam on team preview is......

It's just luck. Everytime you play a QC spam team, there is a 20% chance that ur opponent upsets team order. There is nothing you can do about it other than equip Knock Off and Trick. Trick SI a 1 time thing, and Knock Off has a 20% chance or 44% chance if u face Slowbro to simply...not matter. I'm not arguing that Claw makes these teams good, arguably not even broken, I'm arguing that Claw makes these teams uncompetitive. You can't prep for it when you build your team, you can't prep for it when it faces you. It removes high skill play out the window and you just have to bank on odds, and as I am sure Scald haters are well aware, they might not want to rely on odds.

 

[Piplz]

The only real annoyance with Scald for me is Pex.

Pressing EQ against Pex and doing 80% of its health, only to be rewarded with it staying in and taking it raw and getting a burn in return. Then it switches out and walls the mon that was supposed to break it just because it was able to win a 30/70.

With Regenerator it can do that multiple times per game, and it makes the attacker stupid for staying in if it can't land a clean KO on pex way more often than not, which is really lopsided in favor of the pex user. Almost any other pokemon who would like to do the same and stay in to cripple their attacker would usually take too much damage in the process and lose their ability to wall anything else any further, so its a fair tradeoff in my eyes. Pex however makes it unfair.

The random burns occuring as a casualty of just using the move normally don't bother me too much, it's no different than trying to avoid stray t-waves or discharges or moonblast drops or whatever when switching in. Pex, however, *abuses* it in a way that's really not healthy imo.

tldr i hate toxapex, not scald

 

[Mega Breloom]

I do think it's a bit disingenuous to reduce it to "1 Scald using Water". Disclaimer here that I think the Quick Claw usage is funny to watch but don't have an actual stake in discussing action against it.

Yes, most games would probably have one Pokemon using Scald (though I have seen RMT's and comps in past gens that could have 2), but on the Builder stage, you needed to prepare for basically any Meta-Relevant Water type besides Tapu Fini potentially carrying the move (and that was just assuming Fini didn't end up on the field with its Terrain gone or against an ungrounded target), both offensive and defensive. That is a significantly larger pool to account for in building considering the move essentially turns the Floor into Eggshells for most Physical Attackers at next-to-no cost for the Scald user (Keldeo frequently ran it because the Chip was more than Surf's power would add over a game, and Defensives only care about the Debuff anyway). This feels like the kind of mentality that balloons into arguing for overbearing Pokemon to stay because they have one or two forms of counterplay, ignoring the effect that building for that has on handling the rest of the not-broken-but-relevant tier.

To preempt a sarcastic comment I KNOW someone will make, as is the nature of a lot of posters in this thread lately: This is not me saying Scald is an element deserving of a ban or restriction. This is me arguing that some comments are downplaying how annoying and constraining an effect Scald has/had on team building for what at most seems like "gotcha" moments on other topics (be it other controversial mechanics like Tera/Quick Claw or just unnecessary jabs at the player base that muddy any actual point the commenters are making).

In the Quick Claw replays by comparison, the procs occur but it's not like playing on the chance of the QC proc is riskless: the play was in several cases an ideal one that was improved by going first but not necessarily better only in that scenario. It's something a lot of these mons can throw on to gamble with their item slot without always being a gimmick, and by nature it doesn't really change the Counterplay to them or other members of the Meta due to its unreliability outside of already-advantageous match-ups. Quick Claw as a "major" item of a mon/team rather than a one-off gimmick feels like a "win more" item: once in a while it'll genuinely get a pivotal play change, but most other times it doesn't really make a "bad" turn into a good one so much as a good one becoming "more good."

Agree, if quick claw were busted you could give it to Rampardos or Luxray to be good but those mons are still bad because if quick claw doesn't proc they are dead, while the mons in this team just trade health if quick claw doesn't proc, just like you say, quick claw just makes the play that needed to be done better, while frail and slow mons depend on it.

Keldeo definitely should not have gotten it, but other than the bullshit that is gen5ou the counters to scald users are mostly the same. Slow pivots, burn absorbers, water immune, or special attackers. It was constraining in that you had to prepare for not being able to switch in your physical attackers against bulky waters willy nilly, but that really wasn't a huge constraint imo. I get why people find it kinda bothersome, but the reason isn't because of the teambuilder I don't think. It's because it just feels bad to some people that rng effects can be that swingy, and quick claw is even worse in that regard. I don't personally dislike scald and qc even less, but I get why people don't like them and it isn't because they're too restrictive in team builder, or at least that's not the vibe I get.

https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/toxapex/
Stuff like this is why scald teambuilding restrictions are bad, on gen7 the main Pex set was full special def, so what is the best way to deal with it? Physical attackers but when you can't bring them safely agaisnt it then you were screwed (no teleport on that gen so no slow pivots into pex) while the Pex user had no reason to no click scald 90% of the time. At least gen 7 still had the full dex and other tools like megas or z moves to get around this, but with a limited dex scald limitations feel like they are too much.