Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[ianlazerbeem]

I don't want to get into a Garganacl debate so please don't take this as me arguing in favor of Garg getting banned or anything, but I think that this logic is a little disingenuous. The meta has adapted to Garg via things like Covert Cloak (which is still almost always an inferior item that you're being forced to run in order to check Garg), Substitute, and Encore, but Garg is still excellent and was just one of the best performing mons in World Cup. There is enough variety to Garg sets (and the nature of Tera obviously exacerbates this, although I'm not taking a stance on Tera here either) that it's difficult to conclusively say that much simply beats Garg; for example, even something like Covert Cloak Gholdengo, which is presumably being used as a team's best answer to Garg, gets dominated by Tera Water Garg with Earthquake. Sure, there are some mons like Covert Cloak Gastrodon with Clear Smog that should beat essentially any Garg set, but you can find plenty of examples of irrelevant mons/sets that beat top tier mons (like how Dachsbun can pretty much counter Koraidon in Ubers). The problem with Garg to me is that it just feels incredibly "cheesy," kind of like Volcarona and Espathra did in OU; Garg feels more unhealthy to me than overpowered, if that makes sense. Sometimes you just get 6-0ed by a certain Garg set, and while you could say that a team should be built to answer the various sets it runs, this meta already has so many difficult mons/sets to check that it's putting even more strain on teambuilding and making it harder to check everything that you need to. I could be wrong about this but I think that may be part of the reason why HO/offense in general has been so prominent - it's easier to mostly ignore defensively checking so many things when you can instead stack threats that your opponent is more likely going to struggle to answer.

Honestly I don't think Covert Cloak is that relevant to Garg being balanced because it's a relatively unviable item otherwise. Substitute, Encore, Knock Off, Amoonguss, Gholdengo, Great Tusk, Kingambit, Meowscarada, Samurott, certain Valiants, your own Garganacl, and more all have a lot of value beyond beating Garganacl and one or more fit on (And in fact are ideal on) a huge variety of teams

 

[sims796]

shh, if we acknowledge other solutions then game freak won't make a water-type rapid spin with scald distribution. their spies are everywhere

Aipom's paw: Wish granted, now we have a new ability Salt Mine which is water absorb and granted immunity to status.

On a Ghost type.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Aipom's paw: Wish granted, now we have a new ability Salt Mine which is water absorb and granted immunity to status.

On a Ghost type.

mortal spin glimmora has entered the chat

 

[sims796]

mortal spin glimmora has entered the chat

Every time! I swear to God, no matter the format, whether I'm playing the game or not, Glimmora is here to ruin my fun.

 

[Schpoonman]

I don't think I'm ever going to get over the fact that the generation we finally get a proper Rapid Spin clone on an actual Pokemon* GameFreak not only gave us another Ghost/Steel, but with an Ability that also blocks Defog.

*: Maushold does not count. It's a small mouse that playacts like Dugtrio or Magneton but shittier. Speaking of gen 1 2-stages that got a 4th gen evo, where's my weird lubed-up Diglett Man evo for Dugtrio? Just sticking with all the full-tilt furbait, GF?

 

[Schpoonman]

I don't think I'm ever going to get over the fact that the generation we finally get a proper Rapid Spin clone on an actual Pokemon* GameFreak not only gave us another Ghost/Steel, but with an Ability that also blocks Defog. I just want Excadrill Revmons spin back.

*: Maushold does not count. It's a small mouse that playacts like Dugtrio or Magneton but shittier. Speaking of gen 1 2-stages that got a 4th gen evo, where's my weird lubed-up Diglett Man evo for Dugtrio? Just sticking with all the full-tilt furbait, GF?

 

[LoseToRU?]

Ban Gholdengo and save the meta. I view it in a similar vein to Gen-6 mega Sableye where it isn’t in itself broken but warps the meta and hazard game so severely as to be a net negative to the tier. I don’t really know how this is even debatable at this point, Gholdnego is very close to being a perfect Pokémon. People are constantly whining about boots yet I rarely see anyone argue that the current hazard fiesta meta and extreme difficulty of removal is the reason for boots spam. Gholdengo is the single biggest bottleneck for team building, more so than even Gambit.

Gen-6 M-Sab is a great comparison, wow. Also like the phrase "net negative". I think tera is a net negative on the meta lol..
Anyway, like M-Sab, Gold won't be banned until the literal last day of the meta, if at all. I cried a lot about M-Sab for most of gen 6 but it's not easy to ban a mon that isn't broken, just unhealthy af for the tier. Like I said in a earlier post, Corv fogs on well over half the meta without Gold, and spin becomes incredibly more consistent. That said, I'm not sure better hazard removal would save this tier. In fact, without SR/Spikes being ubiquitous then mons like Bax might be able to run Dice or NMI more consistently- and stuff like CB Nite would get better instantly. G-King could run shuca/colbur/sludge more though so maybe it cuts both ways. The issue may be more with the powerhouse mons that get busted via tera, but probably a combo of both. Either way, I think this tier needs drastic measures taken at some point, and Gold might be the best place to start.

 

[TheTraininator]

I think this meta game needs a lot of changes. For starters, we need to ban Iron Valiant. It has just too good of a typing to handle and it can just moon blast and delete everything. Also, we need to ban Heatran. Heatran can just trap you so easily and even if you U-turn or switch out it can just trap whatever you send in. Iron Moth is also very banworthy because it's just so hard to defeat because it can resist the best priority in the tier and also destroys things with its fire moves. Gholdengo should definitely be banned because it has too much bulk and recover and it can prevent you from removing hazards so u can't switch in anymore. Also Enamorus is just too fast and it does big damage also so ban it. Also corviknight is stinky and bad and it just eats hits so easily and retaliates like there's literally nothing in the tier that can break it. Moltres is also a flying type and can even burn you so ban that too. also Sneasler just swords dance and acrobatics all over you so need to ban it. Um also ceruledge is kinda strong I mean it has swords dance and priority and it can even heal itself with bitter blade and get faster with weak armor so even tho its UU it clearly needs to be booted. I hope you take all my opinions into account because I am a Pokemon master who is the best at Pokemon I mean for real whenever I play Pokemon I Pokemon all over my opponent's pokemon and you should listen to me and nobody else

-sincerely,
a completely unbiased and totally normal OU player with no ulterior motives whatsoever

Hilariously this post made me realize just how many 4x bug resists we have in OU lmao

 

[Fenghuang]

Hilariously this post made me realize just how many 4x bug resists we have in OU lmao

Invest in hoopa-U stocks I'm telling you.

 

[Fusion Flare]

On another note though; I'd like to ask you all - how are you feeling about Hoopa-Unbound right now? Despite its monstrous power, I've found it to be personally... underwhelming

I didn’t miss a billion pages of discussion, did I? But anyways, I’ve been using AV Hoopa and it’s pretty good. Being obscenely powerful from the get-go means you can invest in your great special bulk to just be an absolute menace against mons like Greninja, Iron Moth, Sandy Shocks, even things like Enamorus and Iron Valiant if you Tera (i go Poison, but Fairy works since you are faster than Gambit). Also helps rhat you are a Knock user that can. make Great Tusk explode. Just keep it away from physical attacks. Literally every physical attack.

 

[Fenghuang]

Vest Hoopa is a fun set, and imo its best by far after the eject pack magician rules were properly done. Band and specs are ok, but they're just a bit too slow and frail in this meta there are better breakers that are either bulkier or faster.

 

[Just A Shroom God]

I've used hoopa-u and, while it has some positive traits, it also has many negative traits that really hold it back. There are 4 sets for Hoopa I can see being used: AV, Specs/Band/LO (or just "power"), and Scarf. Each of these has problems. AV specializes in being able to actually switch into things like Greninja or Iron Moth (if it doesn't u-turn on you lmao), but can only outspeed some defensive pokemon and doesn't have the raw power to just click Dark Pulse. With Specs or Band, you can tear through neutral walls like Corv and Sus Mushroom a lot easier. In addition, the number of times your checks can switch in on you is drastically reduced (No-bulk Tusk goes from a 5 to 3HKO with HF and from a 3 to 2HKO with DP, and offensive Kingambit goes from a 4 to 3 with either Pulse or Fury), but oftentimes the you will still have to switch out afterwards as your checks are faster than you or have priority. This means that you still have to predict to some degree. Scarf outspeeds things up to invested 115 speed with a +speed nature or scarfers/Speed BE users faster than base 80 (which is all of them). This isn't as big as it sounds, as things like non-BE Valiant and Ace can still outspeed it and threaten it. However, it gains the speed advantage on things like Specs Enam, Glimm, Meow, and Hamurott. However, these all present another problem for Hoopa: its coverage. It has a lot of tools (Knock, Gunk Shot, Drain Punch, Focus Blast, Grass Knot, Psychic, Thunderbolt, Fire Punch, Trick, Twave) to go alongside the mandatory Dark Pulse or HF, but you will always be weak against something. For example, if you go Trick/DP/Thunderbolt/Psychic, you are set up on by Bax, but if you replace Trick with FB to be able to hit it, you lose the ability to stop an Endgame Kingambit Sweep™. In a way, Hoopa is kind of like the anti-lokix. Lokix uses priority and a switching move to deal damage, but struggles with power, whilst Hoopa doesn't struggle with power in the slightest but is too slow. Overall, Hoopa is a pretty good pokemon to use for its power, but you should always be aware of its weaknesses when using its sets.

 

[matte]

Should Air Balloon be running Thunder Wave over Recover/Nasty Plot? I feel like people assume that Gholdengo is going to switch if running an Air Balloon to save it from popping. Thunder Wave allows Gholdengo to punish things setting up or sucker punch/or a wrong prediction. And even if Thunder Wave has been revealed, It still wards off some switch-ins like .

Besides, If you are playing a good opponent, your Air Balloon is probably going to get popped on a read (eg Knock off --> Eq from ) most of them now run max speed. I think swapping Nasty Plot out is better because Recover is just such a good option for Gholdengo.

 

[Cadsuane]

Should Air Balloon be running Thunder Wave over Recover/Nasty Plot? I feel like people assume that Gholdengo is going to switch if running an Air Balloon to save it from popping. Thunder Wave allows Gholdengo to punish things setting up or sucker punch/or a wrong prediction. And even if Thunder Wave has been revealed, It still wards off some switch-ins like .

Besides, If you are playing a good opponent, your Air Balloon is probably going to get popped on a read (eg Knock off --> Eq from ) most of them now run max speed. I think swapping Nasty Plot out is better because Recover is just such a good option for Gholdengo.

I feel that all Ghold sets really need either thunder wave or focus blast to not be a completely free switchin for Gambit. The nasty plot/shadow ball/make it rain/recover set that saw use earlier this gen fell off because it is just too exploitable by Gambit.

 

[matte]

I feel that all Ghold sets really need either thunder wave or focus blast to not be a completely free switchin for Gambit. The nasty plot/shadow ball/make it rain/recover set that saw use earlier this gen fell off because it is just too exploitable by Gambit.

I agree with the fall-off of the nasty plot/shadow ball/make it rain/recover set. Most teams that run Air Balloon are more offensive teams teams that don't like the passivity of that set. I think something like t-wave/make it rain/shadow ball/focus blast would be better as it offers more offensive power, and also is able to deal with eq ting-lu (not running ruination)

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Hilariously this post made me realize just how many 4x bug resists we have in OU lmao

OH

i literally only realized from reading this that the joke was that the guy's pfp is lokix. i thought it was just a "haha people are complaining about a lot of mons" joke

 

[sims796]

It's odd, I didn't think about it, but maybe I can ween myself off U-Turn for Meow, it has more options and it isn't as useful as it used to be.

 

[matte]

It's odd, I didn't think about it, but maybe I can ween myself off U-Turn for Meow, it has more options and it isn't as useful as it used to be.

U-turn isn't really used to do damage. Its still as useful because it has been doing the same thing. Getting ur mons on the field while doing some damage. Its not like Meow is trying to scrap with , or .

 

[sims796]

U-turn isn't really used to do damage. Its still as useful because it has been doing the same thing. Getting ur mons on the field while doing some damage. Its not like Meow is trying to scrap with , or .

True, it's just that I see these mons everywhere. Literally the exact three I had in mind when thinking about U-Turn.

Thunder Punch has been pulling it's weight, especially against Zapdos, as I can U-Turn safely.

I should get used to stacking hazards and go for a folull Volt Turn team.

 

[artificialdeath]

U-turn isn't really used to do damage. Its still as useful because it has been doing the same thing. Getting ur mons on the field while doing some damage. Its not like Meow is trying to scrap with , or .

The Static/Flame Body proc chances do make it harder to pivot out for free like Meow could during PreHOME though, esp since Zapdos is as good as it's usually been and Moltres has seen more and more use recently

 

[sims796]

The Static/Flame Body proc chances do make it harder to pivot out for free like Meow could during PreHOME though, esp since Zapdos is as good as it's usually been and Moltres has seen more and more use recently

And Rocky goddamn Helmet. Maybe I should consider Protective Pads or whatever they're called.

 

[Cadsuane]

What are people’s thoughts on Roaring Moon? It’s true that as long as Gambit is legal, it always will live in the shadow of the king. But as an endgame sweeper, one advantage it has over Gambit is speed. People are increasingly running anti-sucker punch tech to deal with Gambit (wisp Cinderace, encore booster Valiant, sub Walking Wake or Baxcalibur), but a +1 tera flying Roaring Moon doesn’t care about this and outspeeds and OHKOs all of these mons. Roaring Moon can’t surpass Gambit’s bulk and supreme overlord shenanigans, but the more people prepare for Gambit, the better Roaring Moon will be.

 

[CatsAreCute]

What are people’s thoughts on Roaring Moon? It’s true that as long as Gambit is legal, it always will live in the shadow of the king. But as an endgame sweeper, one advantage it has over Gambit is speed. People are increasingly running anti-sucker punch tech to deal with Gambit (wisp Cinderace, encore booster Valiant, sub Walking Wake or Baxcalibur), but a +1 tera flying Roaring Moon doesn’t care about this and outspeeds and OHKOs all of these mons. Roaring Moon can’t surpass Gambit’s bulk and supreme overlord shenanigans, but the more people prepare for Gambit, the better Roaring Moon will be.

It's a bit frail and predictable. Having to tera to something else means you better be terastilizing at the right moment, otherwise you'll just get revenged by gambit, rocky helmet corviknight chip, or other priority like ice shard bax.

 

[658Greninja]

I feel that all Ghold sets really need either thunder wave or focus blast to not be a completely free switchin for Gambit. The nasty plot/shadow ball/make it rain/recover set that saw use earlier this gen fell off because it is just too exploitable by Gambit.

+2 252+ SpA Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 334-394 (83.5 - 98.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

 

[Just A Shroom God]

+2 252+ SpA Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 334-394 (83.5 - 98.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

while that is a crazy calc, it requires you Tera to avoid the sucker punch KO, requires you to run nasty plot, and you'll probably still die if you don't have spikes or if the kingambit is boots because it'll just +2 sucker punch you which has a good chance to kill even with only 1 SO boost. Thunder wave and fblast are more reliable (fblast reliable lol), less-investment ways to punish the kingambit switch.

also, look at this calc:
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lokix: 237-280 (83.7 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Lokix Axe Kick vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 624-736 (156 - 184%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lokix is literally the best pokemon in the game confirmed?