-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Announcement SV National Dex Suspect 7: Gold Chains
- Thread starter Kyo
- Start date
- Status
My main reason I think Gholdengo should be banned is less not just because it is an insane combination with hazards, not just because it has a fantastic typing and bulk, not just because it has one of the best abilities in the game, but the combination of the 3 at the same time.
During my time laddering, a good Gholdengo player would completely destroy me. There are quite literally no true counters to gholdengo in my opinion. Pokemon which threaten out gholdengo and can switch into it generally do not have good recovery. The main team I use has AV iron treads and incineroar which are literally designed to counter this pokemon and still Gholdengo is often able to wittle them down and break through with hazards + shadow ball chip.
Even pokemon such as clodsire which i consider to be the closest to a gholdengo counter with recovery are prone to being spDef dropped by shadow ball, and can't even really hit gholdengo hard if it teras. apparently shadow ball cm blissey exists too but i have literally never seen this work.'
The only real way to counter ghold is just to double in a faster strong pokemon literally every time or else it gets a free shadow ball / make it rain. (but you will still be taking hazard chip since removing hazards is nearly impossible with ghold alive).
plz ban
During my time laddering, a good Gholdengo player would completely destroy me. There are quite literally no true counters to gholdengo in my opinion. Pokemon which threaten out gholdengo and can switch into it generally do not have good recovery. The main team I use has AV iron treads and incineroar which are literally designed to counter this pokemon and still Gholdengo is often able to wittle them down and break through with hazards + shadow ball chip.
Even pokemon such as clodsire which i consider to be the closest to a gholdengo counter with recovery are prone to being spDef dropped by shadow ball, and can't even really hit gholdengo hard if it teras. apparently shadow ball cm blissey exists too but i have literally never seen this work.'
The only real way to counter ghold is just to double in a faster strong pokemon literally every time or else it gets a free shadow ball / make it rain. (but you will still be taking hazard chip since removing hazards is nearly impossible with ghold alive).
plz ban
you dont drop the hammer in a suspect you get reqs and vote in them, read the post. The two week time frame is so people can ladder and get reqs to vote.
So coming into this suspect, I thought there was context from this tier that I was missing that made Gholdengo a more broken presence here than it is in SV OU (where I find it to be a balanced Pokemon and a good metagame presence). That being said, after playing the tier for a bit... I'm not seeing it. Gholdengo feels like a significantly less overbearing presence in this tier than in SV OU and just feels like a solid Pokemon to me that helps keep the tier together against the onslaught of overwhelming offensive threats, of which there are many. This perception hasn't really changed since I started playing the tier, even with some differences from SV OU like Kingambit being banned (which IMO doesn't make too much of a difference since I don't find it to be a great Gholdengo switch-in in SV OU).
In terms of Gholdengo itself being broken, I feel that's mostly out of the question. Multiple high tier Pokemon do a decent job of keeping it in check. Landorus-T, Mega Loppunny, Samurott-H, Heatran, certain Garganacl variants, Cinderace, Great Tusk, Iron Moth, Mega Charizard-Y, and Volcarona are just a handful of mons that I found gave Gholdengo a rough time due to being able to pivot into its STABs or making it difficult to get on the field to begin with. Bear in mind that many of these Pokemon aren't being run to specifically handle Gholdengo, but because of their own innate positive traits. Furthermore, many defensive Pokemon, despite matching up poorly vs Gholdengo, match-up much better against it here than in standard OU due to higher Scald and Knock Off distribution, which can both wear it down quite a bit. I have seen some users argue that Gholdengo can run tech like Power Gem or Psyshock to get by some of its usual counterplay, but most of these options come at high oppurtunity and will leave Gholdengo more exploitable to other forms of counterplay its not normally vulnerable to (Giving up Shadow Ball makes Dengo more vulnerable to Steels, while giving up Make it rain makes Gholdengo more exploitable for the likes of Mega Lopunny and Ursaluna-BM, as well as other Pokemon like Tornadus-T). Tera is another tool I have seen players argue makes Gholdengo broken and I do agree that Gholdengo is one of the best Tera users around. However, in this tier, I find that Tera'ing Gholdengo is often not the play because keeping its base typing is extremely important vs the various threats its tasked with handling like Tapu Lele, Sneasler, Iron Valiant, and the like. The most common Tera-type I've seen on the teams I stole is Ghost to boost up the damage of Shadow Ball, but on most squads I elected to run Tera Fairy, as the Dark Resistance is crucial vs various Dark-types like Samurott-H. Nonetheless, vs certain targets Tera'ing doesn't matter too much. Mega Loppunny, for example, can play certain lines like Fake Out -> CC / U-Turn / Return vs Gholdengo to check for the early Tera (watch out for Covert Cloak though). This interaction is heavily skewed in its favor, as not doing the early Tera puts it at risk of Being OHKO'd by CC. Zard-Y and Volcarona interactions are heavily skewed in their favor as well regardless of what Gholdengo runs barinng very niche tech.
The main reason most players want to ban Gholdengo seems to be tied to its influence on the hazard metagame due to its ability to block Defog. That being said, from what I've played and the teams I've taken from various players... I don't feel like hazards are too overwhelming? Most of the teams I stole ran 1-2 boots users with maybe a third hazard resistant Pokemon like Landorus-T that runs Defog and these teams felt pretty consistent from what I've played. Against balanced teams, where Gholdengo is prominently featured, I didn't find Gholdengo's Defog clearing effect to be too overbearing. Gholdengo typically runs Leftovers or Covert Cloak on these builds, making it easily pressured by Landorus-T pre-Tera. Furthermore, Gholdengo itself is vulnerable to getting setup on by the various entry hazard setters like Samurott-H, Heatran, and the like, which makes its goal of preventing hazard removal more "undesirable" so to speak, even if the Gholdengo team has the advantage in the hazards games. Gholdengo was a bit more annoying on more offensive styles like Veil, but I feel Veil's annoying moreso comes from other powerful threats these teams have in their arsenal such as Baxcalibur... which, although more manageable than in OU, should be looked at before Gholdengo when deciding whether the style is overwhelming. Furthermore, if Gholdengo gets banned, Veil teams can run Hatterene if the want a Pokemon that blocks Defog (which can be Magic Bounced back against Veil specifically).
Overall, I believe Gholdengo to be a healthy presence in National Dex, moreso than in OU, and will be voting DNB.
In terms of Gholdengo itself being broken, I feel that's mostly out of the question. Multiple high tier Pokemon do a decent job of keeping it in check. Landorus-T, Mega Loppunny, Samurott-H, Heatran, certain Garganacl variants, Cinderace, Great Tusk, Iron Moth, Mega Charizard-Y, and Volcarona are just a handful of mons that I found gave Gholdengo a rough time due to being able to pivot into its STABs or making it difficult to get on the field to begin with. Bear in mind that many of these Pokemon aren't being run to specifically handle Gholdengo, but because of their own innate positive traits. Furthermore, many defensive Pokemon, despite matching up poorly vs Gholdengo, match-up much better against it here than in standard OU due to higher Scald and Knock Off distribution, which can both wear it down quite a bit. I have seen some users argue that Gholdengo can run tech like Power Gem or Psyshock to get by some of its usual counterplay, but most of these options come at high oppurtunity and will leave Gholdengo more exploitable to other forms of counterplay its not normally vulnerable to (Giving up Shadow Ball makes Dengo more vulnerable to Steels, while giving up Make it rain makes Gholdengo more exploitable for the likes of Mega Lopunny and Ursaluna-BM, as well as other Pokemon like Tornadus-T). Tera is another tool I have seen players argue makes Gholdengo broken and I do agree that Gholdengo is one of the best Tera users around. However, in this tier, I find that Tera'ing Gholdengo is often not the play because keeping its base typing is extremely important vs the various threats its tasked with handling like Tapu Lele, Sneasler, Iron Valiant, and the like. The most common Tera-type I've seen on the teams I stole is Ghost to boost up the damage of Shadow Ball, but on most squads I elected to run Tera Fairy, as the Dark Resistance is crucial vs various Dark-types like Samurott-H. Nonetheless, vs certain targets Tera'ing doesn't matter too much. Mega Loppunny, for example, can play certain lines like Fake Out -> CC / U-Turn / Return vs Gholdengo to check for the early Tera (watch out for Covert Cloak though). This interaction is heavily skewed in its favor, as not doing the early Tera puts it at risk of Being OHKO'd by CC. Zard-Y and Volcarona interactions are heavily skewed in their favor as well regardless of what Gholdengo runs barinng very niche tech.
The main reason most players want to ban Gholdengo seems to be tied to its influence on the hazard metagame due to its ability to block Defog. That being said, from what I've played and the teams I've taken from various players... I don't feel like hazards are too overwhelming? Most of the teams I stole ran 1-2 boots users with maybe a third hazard resistant Pokemon like Landorus-T that runs Defog and these teams felt pretty consistent from what I've played. Against balanced teams, where Gholdengo is prominently featured, I didn't find Gholdengo's Defog clearing effect to be too overbearing. Gholdengo typically runs Leftovers or Covert Cloak on these builds, making it easily pressured by Landorus-T pre-Tera. Furthermore, Gholdengo itself is vulnerable to getting setup on by the various entry hazard setters like Samurott-H, Heatran, and the like, which makes its goal of preventing hazard removal more "undesirable" so to speak, even if the Gholdengo team has the advantage in the hazards games. Gholdengo was a bit more annoying on more offensive styles like Veil, but I feel Veil's annoying moreso comes from other powerful threats these teams have in their arsenal such as Baxcalibur... which, although more manageable than in OU, should be looked at before Gholdengo when deciding whether the style is overwhelming. Furthermore, if Gholdengo gets banned, Veil teams can run Hatterene if the want a Pokemon that blocks Defog (which can be Magic Bounced back against Veil specifically).
Overall, I believe Gholdengo to be a healthy presence in National Dex, moreso than in OU, and will be voting DNB.
correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't this kind of a bad perspective to be operating on? we're not comparing ndou gholdengo to regular ou gholdengo, we're looking holistically at whether or not gholdengo is broken/unhealthy in ndou. this tier doesn't make its decisions in comparison to regular ou.
you're seeing so many boots users and defog on hazard-resistant mons with moves like earthquake because hazards are so overwhelming right now, and they're overwhelming because ghold blocks their removal. this is a symptom of the problem, not evidence of gholdengo not being unhealthy. like yeah, those mons don't have to worry about hazards anymore, but i think it should probably say something if ghold's presence is so overbearing that it causes multiple mons on a team to give up their item slot. in a case like this, gholdengo doesn't even need to do anything in the actual game to get considerable value, because the possibility of it existing on a team scares mons out of running other items and lowers diversity. boots are definitely very good as gen 8 showed us, but i do definitely think that they're indicative of a larger problem here.
Gholdengo is my most hated top three Pokémon there is but it doesn’t deserve the ban. If it does get ban then it most likely would not have any battles in national dex Uber tier. Gholdengo can vary from different sets but whatever set it does run it will lack something. The scarf set doesn’t do enough damage and the max hp and special attack can still be two hit KO. There are other sets but those are niche. There is plenty of counters to it like mega lopunny, rotom heat, mimikyu, hisui samurott, and great tusk to name some. Gholdengo does not have any pivot moves so it has to make a tough decision to stay in to predict the hazard removal or the move that will kill. If Gholdengo does Tera then it removes some of its best features. Tera flying allows it to be hit by bolt beam coverage, tera water allows tapu Koko to kill it with tbolt, and tera ghost lose the numerous resistance for a small damage boost. Gholdengo can be easily worn down by hazards like spike stacking. Gholdengo is one of the only things preventing stall for taking over the game.
How is this an argument for its place in the National Dex OU tier? Ubers is a banlist, and while it can be played like a tier, it is foremost a place where Pokémon banned from OU go. Whether a Pokémon is good or bad in another tier means nothing for its performance in National Dex OU.
With this generation's monstrous offensive powercreep, there is zero chance stall actually takes over. Not a chance in a meta with Garganacl, Iron Valiant, Blood Moon, Baxcalibur, Samurott-H, Sneasler... I could go on. And those are only the new threats from Generation 9. We have old, reliable Pokémon like Heatran, Tapu Lele, Medicham-Mega, Gyarados Mega, Manaphy, Mawile-Mega, Hoopa-U, and many, many more that cause serious problems for stall teams. Stall isn't taking over any time in the near future.
This thing is too restricting in teambuilder and I firmly believe the tier would be better off without it.
none of them r counters lmao
Really? Lets do some more calculations...
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Gholdengo: 366-432 (96.8 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Gholdengo: 374-444 (98.9 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Gholdengo: 386-456 (102.1 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And that's not even the point. We are discussing how his ability combined with bulk and typing are to blame. Gholdengo has plenty of counters.
I think when they meant by "these aren't counters", they meant that these mons are checks. All of these mons struggle switching in against it. They're more or less revenge killers really. Even hisuian samurott doesn't like switching in on ghold all that much as it takes too much from +2 mir
Proof: +2 12 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 235-277 (73.2 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 12 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 20 SpD Assault Vest Samurott-Hisui: 153-181 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO
Even the standard av set takes too much and will have to invest more spdef into it.
Counter: a pokemon that can switch into gholdengo and consistently win the 1v1
Can great tusk switch in? Hell no
Can Lopunny switch in? Hell no
Can Samurott switch in? Yes but actualy no.
12 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 79-93 (24.6 - 28.9%)
12 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 118-140 (36.7 - 43.6%)
With the omnipresent hazards on the field, Samurott is easily chipped down, and as it has no recovery, cannot switch in more than twice, maybe three times.
Some real counters would be: Charizard Y (beaten by stealth rock), clodsire, tera steel resist garganacl (beaten by covert cloak), spdef heatran (same problem as hsam but it’s better at taking hits)
Gholdengo can do major damage against all of these except, clodsire and post-Tera garg, if it gets one nasty plot and you don’t immediately pivot. And again, it’s hard to pivot around with hazards up. That’s the problem here. Combined with hazards, it is extremely difficult to stop free ghost stab + make it rain nuke from hitting the whole tier for high damage.
Personally, I like to compare NDOU to regular OU as I believe there are a lot of similarities between the metagames and that some ideas that work in one metagame could transfer over to the other relatively smoothly. ND banning Regieleki because of Tera Ice wasn't something I grasped fully when the ban occured until I played OU for a day and realized just how overwhelming it was (WITHOUT even needing to Tera in most games). I'm sure the same has occured in ND with ideas like defensive Moltres and A-Tales Baxcalibur transitioning over smoothly from OU to here. I've even seen Tera Electric Garg on more than a few occasions lol.
In OU, I see an arguement for Gholdengo being overbearing due to it being difficult for Balance teams to handle with Nasty Plot sets, but here the power level being higher due to mons like Lando-T / Heatran being buffed + the presence of a higher number of Pokemon that can Pivot into Gholdengo's STABs (which are often run together) like Ursaluna-Bloodmoon, Loppunny, Mega Charizard-Y, VOLCARONA, etc. adds a greater degree of viable counterplay to Gholdengo. It also helps that defensive Pokemon like Toxapex have a SIGNIFICANTLY better match against Dengo due to the Scald / Knock combo wearing it down fast.
I mean, from the teams I picked up, I saw like, 2 Pokemon running Boots at most (and bear in mind these were on Pivot Pokemon like Tapu Koko which would wanna run Boots anyways). If this tier was filled with 4+ Boots squads + Corv and Gliscor, then maybe I'd think differently, but only two mons needing to dedicate their item slot to Boots doesn't seem that bad to me, espicially since I think they'd be running Boots anyways. Most Pokemon are still able to run several other items well without really sacrificing much. Samurott-H can run Black Glasses, Heatran can still run Leftovers, most Mega Pokemon are still doing fine because of their innate power level. The hazard scene here is in a significantly better state than in OU and I don't think forcing 1-2 Pokemon into running Boots (which they would want to run anyways) is a massive restriction on teambuilding. Certainly not anymore of a restriction than Rain forcing certain Pokemon like Garganacl to go Tera Water / Dragon or whatever ridiculous measures you need to go to in order to beat Volcarona (lost 3 suspect games to this guy, so yes I'm biased), which are fine metagame presences based on the players I talked to.
If anything, Gholdengo frees up teambuilding by holding the tier together, even moreso than in OU, by providing a valuable switchin to powerful breakers like Tapu Lele, Iron Valiant, Mega medicham, Sneasler, and Zamazenta. I think its telling that most players are expecting 3-4 quickbans if Gholdengo gets banned because these Pokemon would become an issue overnight if its leaves. I have seen players mention "broken checks broken" as a counterarguement to this, but as I've illustrated above, I don't believe Gholdengo to be broken or unhealthy.
Stuff like eleki being broken here and in regular OU doesn't make them similar, that's just a pokemon being broken regardless of format. Stuff like atales+bax is similar. Naturally effective play styles will function regardless of format, and doesn't make this tier similar to sv. And many bax run koko as a teammate instead of atales anyways.
Heatran and Lando both struggle to actually offensively check Ghold when it teras, the former being set up bait often against a tera Ghold with covert cloak. The stuff you say can pivot into it, mega lop is fearful of make it rain and thus makes risky switching to get in, while bloodmoon is similarly risky due to nasty plot boosting potential to overwhelm it. ZardY can pivot into MIR and doesn't fear shadow ball on its own, but with stealth rock up (which is highly likely)? Forget it. Also regarding Pex, scald/knock together is relatively not that common. Only volc really counts among these as reliable switchins.
This is kinda insane to me. Unless teams are running 4+ boots and multiple hazard resilient pokemon there isn't a noteworthy issue? Two boots is already a lot. That's a third of your team and not insignificant when it limits the effectiveness of flexibility in teambuilding. Gholdengo's subtle teambuilding influence goes beyond just boots because it's also about needing removal to beat it, which is also very limited and far from perfect vs it anyways (tera ghost sets alone dominate Great Tusk fairly well and Lando doesn't enjoy it either).
Not sure who you're talking to, but there's a monumental difference in running multiple boots+flying/levitators to not have a team shredded by hazards, vs running a tera type like water/dragon to handle certain matchups. The latter has little to no notable opportunity cost, especially as those teras have more wide reaching gameplay applications beyond that specific matchup. Whereas running multiple boots+hazard resilient mons like fliers and levitators on one team, is quite specific and restrictive, and also exploitable by other teamstyles. Especially as I haven't even mentioned the biggest problem: knock off makes boots spam still not terribly reliable. And knock off is on a ton of stuff.
Of these, Ghold is only good info scarf Lele anyways as specs trucks it with spikes up (tera psychic is literally a 2HKO with spikes), while pokemon such as Iron Valiant have enough counterplay that can soft check and handle it ATM, that it's not really something we need gholdengo for. Mega Medicham also isn't exactly the scariest thing or terribly hard to handle with a well built team. Good mon, but we don't need Ghold for this. Sneasler... It's just a bs mon and Ghold loses vs versions with tech to beat it anyways. And zama has many, MANY checks naturally.
Who's expecting 4+ mons to be broken without Ghold?
I think both of these should be more nuanced, as the effectiveness of these at keeping ghold in check often depends on context, as even with Tera ghold isn't that bulky and can be pushed in range of whatever we are talking about beforehand or pushed in a do-nothing range afterwards vs offensive teams, which can also be glad to take the trade as it can make clicking buttons with stuff like lele a lot easier, or just to get the possibility of other opposing Teras out of the way. Frankly the more I play the more I feel like Gholdengo, as a threat, is just good at punishing passive play in general, and still can often just be bruteforced through.
However, you should note that this isn't really applicable to more defensive teams: some might remember this six
which was quite popular at some point but eventually fell off, part because how strong Gholdengo can be against this team (although tbh I think you often could still play around it half decently) despite it packing a tera water garg and a mlop, and generally mons that seem to do not too badly against it besides Skarmory. Tera Water garg is kind of a fake check anyway thanks to cloak and the need to tera safely beforehand, but the fact that this team still is really afraid of Gholdengo despite packing a M-Lop defeats the argument that this pokemon is sufficient Gholdengo counterplay, in my opinion, especially since Ghold does not lose much by clicking the tera button against this team. You not only need to have an answer to it as a pokemon but be thoughtful on how well Gholdengo can take advantage of your team (most importantly Skarmory here) and also make sure your team won't just collapse because you can't get rid of hazards against it reliably.That being said I believe you still have answers to Gholdengo even if you are running some kind of team that can't always make sure you aren't giving ghold free turns, and frankly I think some of these are underutilised or a bit overhated: Ruination+EQ Ting-Lu can be really annoying to ghold even though imo it needs a bit of additional help to make sure you can still revenge a weakened ghold, while on very defensive teams you got unaware clodsire (although you'd either need to be able to break the balloon beforehand or run amnesia), bulky volcarona, and CM Blissey (which isn't a bad mon tbh considering it also is be a Bloodmoon answer, which btw is a pain in the ass and should be banned lol). While those might seem a bit wack to consider in general, I think it's generally not something unexpected for passive teams to resort on very specific stuff to get around an otherwise though threat to check.
I am still very split on what to vote, but honestly even though I used to be on the ban camp I think I will most probably vote Do Not Ban. I agree Gholdengo's impact on the builder is very real, both because of the threat it is and how strong spikes can be, but I don't think we really can tell if it indeed is something that unreasonable, especially since imo we have dumber to account for running around in the tier right now that probably need to be addressed first (Mostly thinking about Bloodmoon, Baxcalibur and Sneasler), and I think prepping for gholdengo might feel a bit overwhelming sometimes just because you 1. have to deal with very broken stuff too on top of it and 2. because lot of teams running around aren't even that well equipped to try to handle ghold, maybe part because of 1 and because some answers pple run are actually fake (fuck moltres) or are trying too hard to remove hazards instead of trying to build a team that can execute its gameplan in front of hazards.
To make it clear though, if it ends up staying I'd be down to see it being retested eventually once the metagame is more tame, in like a year or something: I just don't think you really can make a strong enough case for banning it right now.
-Sneasler is dumb either way and should be nuked regardless of if ghold stays or goes IMO, Ghold isn't that great of a check in the first place so it shouldn't be a reason to vote DNB (and also is a broken-checks-broken argument blahblahblah)
-ZardY shouldn't rly be mentioned as an answer imo because it's not really a poke you can add to your team to try to check ghold, it's more something you build around, and kinda defines its own archetype.
-Stop using moltres as a ghold answer. Yeah I agree it has good traits, but those are not related to ghold and def should not be treated as such. If you rely solely on moltres as a ghold answer, you will lose.
-As being the most scared of spikes natdex player you will ever met, I will tell u: blocking defog isn't that bad, even in a metagame with a bunch of good spikers.
-ZardY shouldn't rly be mentioned as an answer imo because it's not really a poke you can add to your team to try to check ghold, it's more something you build around, and kinda defines its own archetype.
-Stop using moltres as a ghold answer. Yeah I agree it has good traits, but those are not related to ghold and def should not be treated as such. If you rely solely on moltres as a ghold answer, you will lose.
-As being the most scared of spikes natdex player you will ever met, I will tell u: blocking defog isn't that bad, even in a metagame with a bunch of good spikers.
Just a random thought here kinda on the same wavelength of the end of my good bud R8 ’s post above, but blocking Defog is such an overrated trait when taking into consideration what makes Ghold broken. Most Defog users in the tier have a way around Ghold (see Volt from Washtom/Zap, Molt with a natural advantage, TornT Koff/Hwave, Lando/Glisc with natural advantage) which you can argue stems from Ghold’s presence demanding Defog users that function well into it, but I dont think so, I feel all these mons are good in their own right.
This is definitely not a pro-DNB post (altho i can understand the points some of yall have) because as a pure sweeper, this thing is overbearing to me. I think ive seen every tera utilized by this mon at some point lmao. So forcing Ghold to Tera is awesome and all you can reason, now my Iron Valiant/Tapu Lele can break through it easier, but this is my issue with it. You need a way to force the Tera and then a way to abuse it immediately after. It can always find a way to heal up, tank an attack and trade with ur offensive threat, then endgame your passive pieces. Id prolly vote ban on Ghold as it stands
I dont really care if the mon gets banned or not, I will keep abusing the REAL broken Specs Ghold.
On another note, ban Baxcalibur!!! worst mon allowed in the tier rn (yes, worse than Blud) like I will genuinely go insane if this is allowed 5 weeks from now. Are we waiting for a Christmas-themed Baxcalibur suspect or something? Please no, I dont want to spend my holidays losing to a very original concept consisting of the genius Sneas/Koko/Bax core.
Have fun voting everyone
This is definitely not a pro-DNB post (altho i can understand the points some of yall have) because as a pure sweeper, this thing is overbearing to me. I think ive seen every tera utilized by this mon at some point lmao. So forcing Ghold to Tera is awesome and all you can reason, now my Iron Valiant/Tapu Lele can break through it easier, but this is my issue with it. You need a way to force the Tera and then a way to abuse it immediately after. It can always find a way to heal up, tank an attack and trade with ur offensive threat, then endgame your passive pieces. Id prolly vote ban on Ghold as it stands
I dont really care if the mon gets banned or not, I will keep abusing the REAL broken Specs Ghold.
On another note, ban Baxcalibur!!! worst mon allowed in the tier rn (yes, worse than Blud) like I will genuinely go insane if this is allowed 5 weeks from now. Are we waiting for a Christmas-themed Baxcalibur suspect or something? Please no, I dont want to spend my holidays losing to a very original concept consisting of the genius Sneas/Koko/Bax core.
Have fun voting everyone
I share a similar point with sealoo . If you really think about the meta rn, the only defoggers beat by ghold are just corv and probably torn-t. At least most defoggers or spinners can force ghold to tera, which will make it way less threatening. If anything makes ghold broken, it will be it's sweeping potential. Decent typing and bulk makes the np + recover set hard to wall unless you have certain checks which can still lose to some tera typings (yes my tera dark unaware lost to fairy dazz dream wtf). However, the np set is relatively slow and for the most cases it can only choose from bulk or power, but not both, so offensive teams can at least easily get momentum or revenge kill it.
That's why I think we should keep ghold but lol
Now this is certainly more interesting to see since at first i was a pro ban on ghold but now i think i might change that when i think more about the meta.
Gholdengo certainly has been around long enough for people to had adapted to it (the mentions speak for themselves) and personally while i do think it deserves a ban, i'm also interested on seeing it do more if we get to quickban these two
who are being extremely controversial ever since the DLC arrived (with the Gholdengo suspect over action being taken toward any of them not helping either). Banning Gholdengo certainly makes things better in the long run as not everything is gonna get affected by how stupidly offensive things are alongside hazards (that by the time you get rid of you're more likely to have taken too much damage) but i think Gholdengo could perhaps be something left for way later, on a more established meta where we aren't facing the most unfun, broken and stupid mons running around freely because why not? 
.
It may also be because i want Corv to drop but i think a possible re-test can be made later if this mon ends up staying. Aside from Bax and Bluna, there's also Sneasler, Lele and sometimes Iron Valiant but i don't think these will become opressive enough (except maybe Sneasler but honestly i just want bax and bluna gone) to warrant any action.
TL;DR: I hate ND OU and i like ghold fuck bax fuck bluna no one likes them quickban and keep ghold
Gholdengo certainly has been around long enough for people to had adapted to it (the mentions speak for themselves) and personally while i do think it deserves a ban, i'm also interested on seeing it do more if we get to quickban these two
who are being extremely controversial ever since the DLC arrived (with the Gholdengo suspect over action being taken toward any of them not helping either). Banning Gholdengo certainly makes things better in the long run as not everything is gonna get affected by how stupidly offensive things are alongside hazards (that by the time you get rid of you're more likely to have taken too much damage) but i think Gholdengo could perhaps be something left for way later, on a more established meta where we aren't facing the most unfun, broken and stupid mons running around freely because why not? .It may also be because i want Corv to drop but i think a possible re-test can be made later if this mon ends up staying. Aside from Bax and Bluna, there's also Sneasler, Lele and sometimes Iron Valiant but i don't think these will become opressive enough (except maybe Sneasler but honestly i just want bax and bluna gone) to warrant any action.
TL;DR: I hate ND OU and i like ghold fuck bax fuck bluna no one likes them quickban and keep ghold
>gholdengo suspect
>”oh my gosh we can finally take one step forward in fixing the tier!”
>”wait actually no i want to keep a problem so we can ban other ones that arent being focused on rn”
>vote dnb
>bax bloodmoon sneasler (hopefully) get QB
>”omg ghold is broken”
please make it make sense people, problems are better handled now than later
>”oh my gosh we can finally take one step forward in fixing the tier!”
>”wait actually no i want to keep a problem so we can ban other ones that arent being focused on rn”
>vote dnb
>bax bloodmoon sneasler (hopefully) get QB
>”omg ghold is broken”
please make it make sense people, problems are better handled now than later
I second this. All of this dilly-dallying about how it is not the most broken thing in the tier does not matter, all that should be considered is whether it is broken or not. You think that Sneasler/Baxcalibur/etc are more problematic? Cast a ban vote on this and we will move onto them quickly once they go absolutely wild in the tier without this broken mon soft checking them.
This is not to discredit the opinion that Gholdengo is not broken (even though I vehemently disagree with this) - but people who are voting DNB just because they think it is not #1 on their ban list are completely missing the point of a suspect test.
ghold is a nefast pokemon and Who tf said a Wave of ban was bad? ghold needs to go alongside With sneasler and lele, Then gliscor and ogerpon-w Will gET banned. okay, it's a lot, but, haye, that's new meta. gliscor+ghold is ways Too broken to subsist in the tier. Gholf has one valable counter, gyarados mega. And gyarados beats gliscor. gyarados mega meta. But, Then, it's exactly what I mean by overwhelming. Run mega gyara-> run urshifu->run koko-> run defensive mons->run ghold-> run mega gyarados. it's a circle, like the ttar->fighting types->run latios->run ttar. And nO, gen5 is not a good OU meta. Hazard stack is An archetype, not a meta, generally. ghold Simply invalidates Too much mons.
I am in full agreement with the above points. Blood Moon and Baxcalibur are broken, sure, but that's not what this suspect test is about. This is about Gholdengo, and other mons being broken have no bearing on whether this one is as well. Defensive teams have almost no way of handling Gholdengo, it sits on everything not a sweeper, sets up, and forces you to sack mons you shouldn't. This thing was unhealthy pre-Kingambit ban, and it's only gotten worse since. We generally agreed in the most recent survey that the tier was both stinkier than it should be and that Gholdengo was a very serious issue. This was before Baxcalibur and Blood Moon had truly reared their heads. So long as Gholdengo is here, the tier will not feel healthy.
Also, voting DNB on Gholdengo won't make Baxcalibur and Blood Moon get banned faster.
Some people were discussing whether a ban wave was going to happen. And whether it should. I believe that since day one of Generation 9 National Dex, we have collectively buried our heads in the sand to avoid facing the problems with the tier. The Kingambit ban was a step in the right direction. We can't be afraid to face this problem, not when it causes such pervasive issues in the meta and invalidates whole teamstyles. While change is intimidating, we must face it head on in order to see the best results.
The next few days are critical for the rest of Generation 9 National Dex. It's up to us to fix the tier, so let's do what's right and make this a better metagame for everyone.
Also, voting DNB on Gholdengo won't make Baxcalibur and Blood Moon get banned faster.
Some people were discussing whether a ban wave was going to happen. And whether it should. I believe that since day one of Generation 9 National Dex, we have collectively buried our heads in the sand to avoid facing the problems with the tier. The Kingambit ban was a step in the right direction. We can't be afraid to face this problem, not when it causes such pervasive issues in the meta and invalidates whole teamstyles. While change is intimidating, we must face it head on in order to see the best results.
The next few days are critical for the rest of Generation 9 National Dex. It's up to us to fix the tier, so let's do what's right and make this a better metagame for everyone.
I hate to say this but I agree with the Ban side, banning gholdengo now theoretically would be better for meta. I hate this, but I concede(oh I will get back at you Eve L. Duehr, just you wait).
Not sure if the above posts were about this part of my post but I felt like I needed to make it clearer:
Yes, Gholdengo is centralising, but this isn't necessarily a bad thing - I would even go further by saying that it can even be a good thing, as imo a healthy metagame has to be centralised around some things to some degree, as otherwise you just get too much variance to be able to build proper teams. Of course, if something is too centralising it will have to be banned, but I do not think Gholdengo reached that point, or at least was proven to have reached it. To me the most annoying is to prepare for it + baxc/bloodmoon/sneasler/whatever else is dumb rn, but fudamentally it doesn't invalidate much of anything between stall and HO as long as you prepare correctly for it.
If it somehow still proves to a problem once we did significant progress tiering wise and after letting the metagame evolve more, I think a resuspect is completely justifiable, especially since the second DLC would probably have dropped in the meantime. I am opposed to ban it just to resuspect it later because, let's be real, if Gholdengo gets nuked there is absolutely no chance it comes back even if it ends up being actually balanced, and 2 weeks of suspect will not be enough to properly assess its impact on the metagame.
The point here is that I believe that so far no strong enough argument was made about ghold being unhealthy, let alone broken. I understand Gholdengo is polarising and might feel a bit overwhelming to prepare at times, but imo it is more because you have to prepare for actually broken threats on top of it rather than Gholdengo's fault itself. I do not think banning Gholdengo at this stage of the metagame would be a step in the right direction at all, and you can read my post if you want to read about my reasoning in more details.
Yes, Gholdengo is centralising, but this isn't necessarily a bad thing - I would even go further by saying that it can even be a good thing, as imo a healthy metagame has to be centralised around some things to some degree, as otherwise you just get too much variance to be able to build proper teams. Of course, if something is too centralising it will have to be banned, but I do not think Gholdengo reached that point, or at least was proven to have reached it. To me the most annoying is to prepare for it + baxc/bloodmoon/sneasler/whatever else is dumb rn, but fudamentally it doesn't invalidate much of anything between stall and HO as long as you prepare correctly for it.
If it somehow still proves to a problem once we did significant progress tiering wise and after letting the metagame evolve more, I think a resuspect is completely justifiable, especially since the second DLC would probably have dropped in the meantime. I am opposed to ban it just to resuspect it later because, let's be real, if Gholdengo gets nuked there is absolutely no chance it comes back even if it ends up being actually balanced, and 2 weeks of suspect will not be enough to properly assess its impact on the metagame.
- Status