Announcement SV Monotype Suspect #4: Fire (Gouging Fire Suspect)

[DugZa]

​

Hello everyone, following the conclusion of MWP, the Monotype council recently conducted a tiering survey to gauge the community opinion regarding the current state of the tier. Of the 8 Pokemon listed, Gouging Fire gained the most amount of support for tiering action seen here. As a result, the Monotype council unanimously agreed to throw Gouging Fire on to the chopping block.

Since the DLC2 release, it has been evident that Dragon-type teams have been extremely overpowering in the current metagame, forcing the entire metagame to revolve around Dragon-type teams as a result. It is also undeniable that Gouging Fire is arguably one of the most significant Pokemon that push Dragon-type teams over the top. Gouging Fire is a very unique Pokemon, a type of Pokemon that the tier has never dealt with throughout the generations. Upon its release with the DLC2 metagame, Gouging Fire was quick to establish itself as a key fixture on both Dragon and Fire type teams due to a range of key characteristics that neither type has been blessed with over the years. Despite being a relatively popular type in previous metagames, the lack of a reliable defensive backbone to fall back on was always a major limiting factor Dragon-type teams had. However, that changed to a great extent with the release of Gouging Fire; Gouging Fire's most commonly used bulky Dragon Dance set provides a very distinctive defensive piece for Dragon type teams with reliable recovery, something that was previously unheard of for Dragon-type teams. Its remarkable bulk allows it to successfully check a myriad of different threats such as Hatterene, Enamorus, Greninja, Flutter Mane and Gholdengo; most of which prove to be extremely threatening to Dragon and Fire type teams otherwise. Moreover, its specially defensive sets are extremely difficult to account for, as would be checks such as Choice Scarf Enamorus and Draco Meteor Archaludon fail to deal with it reliably, allowing it to spiral out of control after a few boosts. It also has the luxury of amazing teammates that can complement its role perfectly well on Dragon type teams. Pokemon like Arcahludon and Goodra-H can also form very reliable defensive cores when paired with Gouging Fire.

Albeit most of Gouging Fire's dominance is displayed on Dragon-type teams, it has proven to be overbearing on Fire-type teams too at times. While most Dragon-type teams opt for the more predictable bulky Dragon Dance set, it is not as simple on Fire teams as Gouging Fire has adapted to successfully pull off a handful of unique sets on Fire teams (Dragon Dance + Morning Sun with unique coverage, Dragon Dance + 3 Attacks or even Choice Band sets among others); each of which mandates slightly different counterplay, making it nigh impossible to account for all possible sets without compromising the rest of the team. It also provides Fire-type teams with a fairly reliable switch-in against most Water-type attacks. Gouging Fire has amazing support on Fire-type teams as well, being provided with 8-turn sun allowing it to utilize its ability to the fullest, while enhancing its breaking capabilities to the next level. Moreover, it also has the luxury of Healing Wish support from Ninetales on Fire teams.

All that said, Gouging Fire does come with a few limitations. For starters, its speed tier has left much to be desired in the current metagame; its bulky Dragon Dance set has proven to be extremely slow, failing to outspeed a number of significant Pokemon prior to getting multiple Dragon Dance boosts. Similarly, while its Choice Band set hits extremely hard, it is also arguably slow and unreliable at times in this current fast-paced metagame. Moreover, most of its sets are extremely reliant on Heavy-Duty Boots to function efficiently, as both Dragon and Fire-type teams lack reliable hazard control options.

All in all, many argue that Gouging Fire has pushed both types to an unhealthy extent, while others believe it is just very good but not broken. So, is it truly broken? The ball is in your court now. Be sure to post your thoughts on Gouging Fire!

---

In order to cast a vote in this suspect test, you must participate on the [Gen 9] Monotype ladder in which Gouging Fire will continue to be allowed. You must make a new account to ladder with. This account's registration date must be at earliest the day this suspect begins. You must prefix your account name with the tag: GOFI3 in order for your account to qualify. Tagging dhelmise to implement this on the ladder!

The requirement for qualification is at least 82% GXE and at least 40 games played. The suspect test will last two weeks until Sunday, February 25th @ 11:59 PM EST (GMT-5). You will then have three days to cast your vote. Gouging Fire will require a 60% majority of voters in favor of banning it in order for it to be banned from Monotype.

Upon meeting the requirements, you must post proof of the qualification in the Voter Identification thread, which is separate from this thread and will be created closer to the end of the suspect. Do not post your proof in this discussion thread.

You may use this thread to discuss this Gouging Fire suspect or ask for clarification for any questions you may have.

You may not use this thread to post one-liners or discuss topics unrelated to this specific suspect, such as possible future suspects.

Please stay respectful when you post and follow all Monotype forum rules. Please also make sure to follow the Monotype tiering philosophy found here.

 

[roxie]

 

[cpt.kraken]

Gouging is a pizzaiolo mon. It can adapt litteraly any team being bulky physical or special or offensive. Able to take scarf Flutter Mane or Valiant Moonblast, it can replace Goodra-Hisui with more offensive presence and a way to recover. On the physical side, Kingambit 5allies ko adamant +2 sucker punch doesn't 0HKO bulky ones (and it's a roll for full offensive ones). The dragon dance, morning sun, earthquake, fire move is the more common one but you can be surprised by an offensive 3 attacks. For now, due to the over presence of dragon and steel on ladder, Archaludon is too much a threat to the loaded dice set but except those two types, it can destroy a bunch of teams.
It's more a threat in dragon rather in fire where it's mainly choiced but offer another wallbreaker beside Ceruledge and Ogerpon-H creating a mad trio able to take almost every teams even dragons if you play well.
To be honest, I don't think it should have been the first one to be suspect (looking at you godzilla) but it's an ant step to change this meta so I will be voting ban.

 

[Ethereal Sword]

Once upon a time I thought my Dragon teams didn't need a Gouging Fire. After all, Dragon has about a dozen DD sweepers and many of them, unlike Gouging, can hit Balloon Heatran. That was until I found about its defensive set:

the set

Gouging Fire @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 184 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Burning Bulwark
- Earthquake
- Heat Crash
- Morning Sun

EV explanations: 8 spe reaches 220, maxed HP, then the rest divided between Def and SpD such that both stats are equal (maxed special bulk while still having Protosynthesis boost Def). Team/replays available on request.

As it turns out, aside from being an elite offensive Pokemon, it is also excellent in defense. It has great stats and Morning Sun. Furthermore, Gouging Fire's signature move, Burning Bulwark, lets it cripple any physical attacker by inflicting burn if they used a contact move (if your opponent is choice-locked into a contact move, oh what a shame that would be). But the kicker - it is very hard to detect ahead of time that this is not in fact a DD sweeper. This means that it can disguise itself as a DD sweeper until it is ready to spring the trap. While getting reqs, over and over opponents would attack Gouging Fire to stop it from setting up only to be met by Burning Bulwark, instantly shutting down their physical attackers and letting my real sweepers (the likes of SD Baxcalibur and NP Hydreigon) have a much easier time.

Gouging Fire's defensive sets (with Burning Bulwark) often fly under the radar in comparison to its Dragon Dance sets; in fact, DD-less sets aren't mentioned at all in the introductory post of this thread. But, owing in part to the fact that Gouging is the only "defensive" Dragon mon that has reliable recovery, the defensive sets are at least as effective as the Dragon Dance sets. Neither Archaludon nor H-Goodra quite have the same ability to punish opposing attackers so severely. The surprise element - that opponents are initially forced to assume that Gouging is offensive - is the cherry on top.

When building a team using defensive Gouging Fire, there is one teammate in particular that I wanted to mention, and that is Hydreigon. Not having Dragon Dance restricts Gouging's anti-Steel capabilities (in addition to the previously mentioned issue of Balloon Heatran), and having a Hydreigon vastly improves this matchup (in fact, I have not lost against Steel once when getting reqs). It helps that Gouging will often lure in the Heatran, who usually can't do much to Hydreigon.

Gouging Fire's Dragon Dance sets may or may not be banworthy on their own, but combined with its defensive sets, it is no surprise that I will be casting a BAN vote.

 

[Fírnen]

Hello Mono community,
First, like most people already know, my English isn't the best, so be indulgent with that.

Well, I wanted to post in SV Monotype Metagame Discussion, but as it's locked during the Gouging suspect,I will write it here as it's linked with Gouging suspect indirectly.

First thing is we have finally a way to change the present metagame.
Indeed, from the survey, a lot of people look disappointed with our monotype metagame.
But why? Is it only linked due to the predominance of Dragon type?
Or is the pain is deeper than that?

If people aren't happy with Dragon predominance and want something different, I'm not sure it's a reason to have a ban.
Don't forget Psychic, Flying types always have been top types in last generation (maybe Flying atm) but nobody complained with predominance of these types before. So, complaining about Dragon isn't a good argument.

Now, if we are looking the present Metagame, if we only ban Gouging Fire, it won't affect this metagame.
Why? Because are we really thinking banning one dragon will nerf dragon type that much?
Hello, they have incredible options this generation and Gouging isn't the most powerfull (imo, Baxx is less healthy than Gouging). and it will be replaced by another strong dragon.
If u want a pivot to tank Mooblast/Dgleam/Fairy moves, Goodra-h is there.
If u want to play more offensive, u can play another Dragon.
The point is banning Gouging Fire won't affect predominance of Dragon type, and people hoping that should reconsider their point of view.

The survey gave good points, in my opinion, concerning the metagame.
Not only one Pokemon has to go out or at least suspected if we are looking for a different metagame.
I will name some of them: Baxcalibur, Chien Pao, Flutter Mane, Ursaluna-Bloodmoon and Kingambit are in a vicious way, responsibles of the lack of fun in the present metagame.
Why vicious?
Because in a certain way, all these Pokemon try to balance each other but affect other types like Flying, Psychic, Steel, Grass, Poison where they aren't played.
And for this reason, it keeps a bad presence in the metagame, and imo, a lack of fun and competitivity.

I'm confident if we want to healthier metagame, we will have to do more than just a suspect of Gouging fire.
Because, we all know people will ban it to hope having another metagame and it won't happen.
We will wait 3-4 weeks untill another suspect/ban, and we will have the same issue, only one Pokemon ban and no global/strong effect to have another Metagame healthier.
And time will pass quite quickly until we are before the 10th generation comes out.

Thanks to have read me.

 

[cpt.kraken]

I do agree with Firnen but I think Flutter Mane is quite fine tho he forgot Archaludon MAINLY and Zamazenta, heat rock (and icy rock it'll be done), Espathra, Ogerpon-Hearthflame, Terapagos have to go.

Also other dragons need to be carefully watch after that : Raging Bolt and Kyurem.

Another option is to redefine what is monotype and what does it mean ? Terastal can be regular tier as you build 6 mons with same type, same as using Ditto, Libero/Protean, or move that deletes a type (Pawmot with double shock in electric isn't electric anymore, no ?). But it means having a strong council that acts fast and efficiently and no proceed by taking 3 months to choose a mon for a suspect. FM wasn't the only issue and was easier to handle thank Kingambit and Chien-Pao in early gen9 and it is almost the same now with Gouging Fire.

Good luck with whatever you will vote but the suspect is not on the good mon or definitely not alone.

 

[Pengairxan]

As someone who is probably not going to get the requirements to vote as laddering and trying to get the suspect reqs has brought out the worst in me at what ladder has become and for my own wellbeing, I'm going to call it quits for this suspect. (This is outdated I got requirements.)

With that said, please for the love of fuck, ban this mon.
I've mentioned my distaste for this, thing, before here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...e-discussion-indigo-disk.3732581/post-9902559
And my opinion has only worsened.
The main setup sweeper set kind of just, kills stuff once the one or two checks a team might have are dead. Either that or it majorly softens up a team that the other setup sweeper in Baxcalibur just goes "Haha, I sweep here now."
Going with my usual view, Poison just doesn't exist if Gouging is DDance. Like sure, Dragon wasn't exactly a fun matchup to play during DLC1 either, but at least then, it felt like we had a pretty good fighting chance. But now it feels like "I hope you have Toxic on Geezing or Toxapex, get it safely on and pivot perfectly until it dies or else you're likely losing the game right there."
And as Ethereal mentioned, you can't even tell if its DDance or a bulky set with bulwark until it reveals that or you do your damnest to infer. Since both main sets run some good ass bulk and morning sun making it near impossible to tell until you get a mon that you think can go "Okay, I can force a switch here or kill it" and then "Well shit, my physical attacker is now burnt and useless, fuck me."
And thats only speaking on the Dragon side of things.
On the Fire side of things. It's power when boosted by Sun can enough to just delete incredibly bulky mons like Toxapex, Mandibuzz and Sinistcha with just its Stab alone. (Like +1 Flare Blitz has a 53.9% chance to 2 hit Toxapex from full.) And that is a type that has a viable weather setter with healing wish that even if Gouging gets low, and gets statused can just come back in the game later at full like nothing ever happened with anywhere from 7~4 turns left of sun. And if you run a type that resists Fire, you're likely either going to have to deal with its Dragon-type STAB or Earthquake or stuff like Ogerpon and Volcanion are looking at you real funny.

Alos slight response to Firnen here.

Now, if we are looking the present Metagame, if we only ban Gouging Fire, it won't affect this metagame.
Why? Because are we really thinking banning one dragon will nerf dragon type that much?

While yes, it won't gut dragon, Dragon will likely still remain the best type, it will still hurt massively. Hisuian Goodra is not an offensive meance like Gouging Fire is and while more specially bulky, its recover is limited to just leftovers which restricts it greatly. meaning if that has to go back to being the specially defensive Fairy and Ice Check, it can be worn down easier thanks to its lack of reliable recovery if you run Gouging as weapons into those types. And offensively it will also be a blow since the only Pokemon that shares Gouging's recovery + setup capabilities on Dragon is limited to just Dragonite and Roaring Moon, both of whom have far more weakness including a quad weakness each (Ice and Fairy respectively) giving much more effective ways to hit them overall.

And while this next part probably should go in Metagame discussion. Thats closed right now so whoop it goes here.

The current state of SV Monotype feels like Rock Paper Scissors which all the Dragon, Anti Dragon and Anti Anti Dragon teams the ladder feel infested with. Even playing more offensive types during this suspect like Fighting and Dragon, there was just several times where it felt like loaded into someone running a team designed to beat Dragon and then a bit later on, someone running a team that felt like it was not building with Dragon in mind, but trying to check the Dragon team check. And I for one, do not like playing Rock Paper Scissors that takes a couple of minutes and the agony of not being able to load Poison into all these Fighting teams as I can only presume the Psychic, Fairy, and Ghost teams are soon going to follow and I want GXE damn it.

 

[FadedCharm]

Hey everyone, Back again for another suspect test!

First off I wanna say banning gouging fire is a must. It serves no purpose here in this tier. It's incredibly oppresive in building as you can't build any type without having dragon in mind. It is because of a combination of things, however the latest piece in the puzzle gouging fire sets the metagame over the edge. Several types that would otherwise be viable and fun to play with are unemployed, searching for the ban that we have the ability to do so. The types that are viable have to still build with gouging in mind, such as fairy (double water fairy), steel (hoping that you can twave it and wear it down), Fire (Gouging fire wars), water (on life support with kindgra/primarina) etc. These cores are only great because they can just barley (not really) cover dragon.

Gouging can quite litterally survive boosted attacks with investment with ease. It's ability to heal off damage and still boost itself to game ending heights is insane and often happens. There's nothing much too it. It clicks dd, it goes boom, it wins, and you lose. It doesn't die to anything and its coverage can hit everything but an air ballon fidough (like let's be serious). There's no wizard of oz pulling the strings behind the scenes. He is the real deal of what it means to be an unheathly and unkillable.

What I really want to address is the whispers from the DNB party.
But but Archaludon but but but:

We need to stop thinking because x mon is also a problem that y mon is not that big of a deal. When both x and y mon are both problematic. We can acknolwedge that x and y are both the problem. Removing one piece of the problem does help us fundamentally change the metagame. Yes, dragon will still be good, oppressive? If it still is then on with the next suspect test! It's not like you don't get one thing because you got another.

It's like gen 8 steel so it's just super good and not broken:

I think we are using one generation to compare to another and i don't think that works here. Before gouging, dragon was somewhat problematic for types but it was way more mangable since you couldn't cover every MU in 6 slots. However, gouging has came and compressed so many things into one that you can cover everything and some. Gen 8 steel couldn't account for everything, it still had weakness that you could prey on. With dragon you have no risk of loading into anything at all.

Ground beats it? So it must not that be that big of a deal
I'm so happy that one type out of the 18 can have a somewhat favorable match up even if ground can easily be overwhelmed with easy to fit mons in latios/latias/kyurem. If only a very specific playstyle can work against one mon then we have a problematic mon on our hands.

Just status it and your fine! GG WP

Getting a thunder wave on gouging fire is incredibly difficult when it has teammates in raging bolt and mons who don't care about status. Toxic is easily absorbed by its teammates in goodra-H and archaludon. It's also can threaten most things attempting to status it in the first place.

In conclusion I said what I said, I ain't going back and forward with no one. Please ban Gouging Fire, Thank you!

 

[Leafium Z]

Hello, gamers! Hope you all are having a lovely day!

Context

Without further ado, I will already state that, as for the day of today, I am intending to vote do not ban and I will tell you why. I am not set in stone by any means, (because wise men can change their mind), so if I am convinced, I will gladly switch sides.

As I stated multiple times on different discords to some people, I hate suspect tests, to the point of never partaking on any of them until this one. To be more specific, what I really hate is laddering as a whole but anyway. Since Dragon is so dominant in the current metagame, I thought to myself "welp, why not use a dragon and see where it goes".

Impressions from Laddering

On paper and in my head, I was giggling and swinging my feet at the thought of abusing Gouging Fire and watching it sweep miserable teams time after time while my opponents crumble in despair as they watch the pineapple dog flare blitz everyone to oblivion.

Except that's not what really happened. At least, as often as I imagined.

In the majority of the games from my run, it was more useful as a pivot than an actual sweeper. In a good chunk of the games, all it did was soak up the fairy/ice hit, recover and switch out. So while it is a godsend gift for Dragon teams, is it broken? I thought it was, but I kinda don't think so anymore. Personally, the dragon that is, indeed, the most pressing matter is Archaludon, but I will not get into details because it's not his suspect.

Then why not ban Gouging Fire now and Archaludon later?

To me, Gouging Fire wouldn't be so oppressive if it didn't have his buddy Archaludon spreading status, crippling everyone, compressing roles and abusing stamina. However, if Gouging Fire was not around, Archaludon would be just as annoying as it currently is.

What I am trying to say is that the order of the bans matter. If Gouging Fire turns out to be healthy in an eventual No-Arch metagame, banning it right now would be a mistake.

But Dragon is so oppressive right now, why not ban it to at least nerf it a little bit?

Because, at least in my head, suspect tests are not meant to be used to "nerf a type". If said mon in question is not inherently and conceptually broken, it should not be banned regardless if its type is the best of the best. Banning just for the sake of nerfing the typing as a whole is not really what is meant to happen.

Long Story Short:

I agree with a lot of what Firnen said. The metagame is not in the best shape, but in order to make it really improve, we need to assess the correct targets. And, in my humble opinion, Gouging Fire is not it, at least for now. Thank you for your patience!

 

[Scarfire]

Apologies in advance if this post is messy, I struggle to sort out my thoughts so I'll do my best to split shit up. Rather than an attempt at convincing people by addressing individual arguments for ban/dnb, this is more of "What Gouging does and what do types do against it" post, so others can form their own thoughts from there. I've been playing and building this meta almost nonstop with what I would like to call pretty high success, so as far as the BUILDER IMPACT goes, I'd say my word can be trusted. This is all based off my own thought process when I consider Gouging.

When building in SV Mono its no secret that Gouging and dragon/fire as a whole are at the top of the checklist. With that considered you have to consider first, what are Gougings sets and what are its supports. As far as sets go, I do actually have some personal things to say in regards to peoples poor usage of Gouging, but I will get to that later.

Sets

Offensive DD
Gouging Fire @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Flare Blitz / Heat Crash
- Earthquake

(Other EV spreads include: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe Jolly, this creeps solely Baxcalibur. And also 88 HP / 168 Atk / 252 Spe Jolly, this is the sun-speed boosting set. Can be used on Dragon if you don't desire to be revenge killed by opposing speed boosting CB Gouging in sun.)

Defensive DD
Gouging Fire @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
- Dragon Dance
- Morning Sun
- Flare Blitz / Heat Crash / Dragon Claw
- Earthquake / Dragon Claw

I kept EV's empty here because there is no end to the amount of spreads we have seen. Specially defensive ones that can eat up Draco's from scarfers and archaludon, physically defensive spreads that eat up Chien-Pao attacks and unboosted Glaive Rush, or still offensive/speed heavy with just enough bulk to setup on an offensive threat once or twice. Versatile, not easy to answer without knowing what it is.

Choice Band
Gouging Fire @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 88 HP / 168 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Dragon Claw
- Raging Fury
- Earthquake

Fire runs this on sun to cover breaking power + speed control.

Scarf and pure defensive (3 attacks morning sun or maybe burning bulwark) sets exist as well but are few in use and gimmicky at best so I will leave them out for most of this post.

Regarding the aforementioned thoughts on people using Gouging; all I really wanted to say is that in specifically the steel matchup, every dragon player has been lazily slapping on quake-flare gouging and then getting murked by air balloon Heatrans. Please for the love of god just run 3 attacks and abuse the fact that Gouging is unkillable even without recovery. You have healing wish at worse. If you do want to use Flare-Quake please acknowledge its role and what matchups its there for and run something else for steel. Thank You.

Anyways, the matchup sheet. A lot of this depends heavily on the Gouging set in question; not every Gouging set beats every type, but you'll often find 2/3 will take an epic shit on them. Becomes a game of praying you face the right one. As far as support goes, both its types have some of the best rockers in the tier and both are often packing a healing wish user, Anyways, with that in mind, I have a fuckload to say on the matchups and building with or against Gouging, so here is a boxfull.

Building/Playing against Gouging.

Mirror
I'll get dragon mirror out of the way since any mirror tends to be built in an ugly fashion. As far as non-Archaludon teams go, CB speed Gouging and dd 3 attacks (or hell, even defensive dd with a dragon move over flare or quake), all just auto win by spamming funny dragon stab. In the event there is an Archaludon, you can still use Gouging to dent it for an easy Baxcalibur follow-up win. Or vice versa. Without Gouging around a lot of the mirror becomes a game of preserving your Archaludon's health for the opposing Baxcalibur; positioning around the opposing dragon mons in a way where you can maximize the turns where your Baxcalibur is in and able to rack up damage vs the opposing Archaludon for an eventual late game win. Gouging removes both aspects of that back and forth, both A: forcing damage/death on Archalu, and B: functioning as a measure to prevent losing to Bax assuming you are running over 300 speed w/dragon move. It centralizes the mirror around itself on both ends, both being able to break Archalu and check Bax. The flare-quake set is (almost) completely useless in this matchup, so if you face that one then good job. (Most of dragon is still fire neutral or ground weak, so it can still do some work. If the flare-quake set is spdef heavy, it can absorb scarfed latias/boots dragapult dracos once and then bring something else in on the -2, but this only really matters if you aren't running Goodra-H, or if you just need to preserve lategame sacks, which can be hella important in mirror).

Dark
3 attacks dd is on average the "useless" one here, if you play your physdef ting-lu well, or encore sableye or mandibuzz or so on. Not completely useless and definitely depends on how the game plays out, but definitely has viable counterplay options. The other 2 sets are a heftier death sentence. Defensive DD sets are extremely hard to break, physically heavy ones just help shrug off Meowscarada, Kingambit, and Chien alike, and there is spdef heavy varients as well that can eat up specs Greninja ice beams. As far as counterplay for this goes, Ting-Lu remains relatively sturdy into it, and Hydreigon CAN work assuming you have scouted Flare-Quake, but dragon move will just pack it up (Flare-Claw sets that outspeed Latios after a DD and have the bulk to avoid banded Chien Pao 2hko exist, and can be useful here and in mirror). Regardless of Ting-Lu preventing a sweep here, dragon has plentiful ways to force progress regardless whereas dark gets completely blocked off. Last set in choice band; nothing on the type can swap into Raging Fury in sun. Hydreigon ,Tinglu, and Mandibuzz get 2hko'd and Greninja has a high channe to get ohko'd. We have seen Roaring Moon darks to help cope with sun, but beyond that it doesn't do all that much (also it still takes like 71 minimum from rage in sun, and the only way to OHKO back is to be speed boosting outrage. Its not fun to prep for this mon on this type).

Fairy
Similarly to dark, the 3 attacks sets KIND of blow here, but offensive morning sun is still strong. Bulk isn't NEEDED to win. But yeah, defensive DD with flare-quake shines here as well, being able to DD in the face of Flutter and Valiant (not repeatedly you can't expect this guy to do EVERYTHING), and then kind of just win. Azumarill at most can eat a hit and force it out, but dragon isn't exactly shitting its pants over being forced out by an Azumarill. Stacking waters with Primarina has been an effective strategy for helping beat down Gouging, but often Gouging can take the 1v1 and, while not win, weaken Primarina and then get healing wish'd later, or just go straight into Goodra-hisui if you have it, and immediately force progress. This segment goes heavily into the "support" Gouging has. While I won't argue DD Gouging vs Fairy is an example of Gouging being broken, it is oppressive in that its forcing on stacking up answers and then still being able to out-maneuver them with little difficulty. And then, once again, we get to the choice band set. Everything gets ohko'd except the waters which get 2hko'd. There is however the double edge'd sword that is Flutter Mane coming out speed boosted, with specs power gems, but like...252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Power Gem vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire: 286-338 (76.6 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Yeah, I don't know. Fairy has counterplay, but Gouging has counterplay to the counterplay which is very easy to pull off, and this will continue to be a trend in this post.

Flying
This one is a bit messy. I'll start off simply by saying; Gyarados is as good of a Gouging answer you're gonna get. Whether or not running Gyara on every flying is something you guys voting want to be necessary, is up to you. Beyond that, the usual double steel + gliscor gets kind of owned by Gouging, offensive Flare does too much and defensive can force out a few dd's.. Forcing Flare Blitz suicide is one way to go, or weakening it and then using Enamorous to revenge kill if its Heat Crash. It is capable of forcing 1-2 kills (into non Gyarados flyings) if played right and this can be made further annoying if healing wish is used well. Dragonite can be a check if you manage to scout that its not dragon move, but this usually requires going Dnite and switching out which...lol. Choice band sun sets are easy to handle with Gyarados / predicting right with Dragonite, but Gouging forces damage unto your one whole fire resist which leaves you vulnerable to everything else (Hearthflame).

Steel
Balloon Heatran is a good set in general, and also happens to completely shut down Flare-Quake Gouging. Cool. But what if its 3 attacks? You lose. So what, now you have to run Archaludon as well. Stacking answers for a singular mon feels great. A lot of steel aside from Archaludon struggles to kill it as well, so it'll always have bulk to dd, and also bulk to survive for a healing wish later. Overall though, steel vs gouging is only as dire as the dragon player wants it to be. Once again, a type has counterplay, but Gouging has counterplay to the counterplay, and it becomes another thing where you are somewhat at the mercy of the dragon (or fire, sometimes) players prep.

Fire
Gouging Fire-Off. Without Gouging, a lot of dragon is hella fire-neutral, especially the bulky mons, so a lot of hard hitting fire moves do have the ability to win. Opposing Gouging completely shuts this down, and can just completely shit on the type with little effort. As nice as Gouging is for fire as a tool, it's even worse as an opponent in this matchup. Mirror can also often come down to speed ties between the Gougings, whether its dd or sun bandeds, and its kind of reminiscent of Chien-Pao ties in dark mirror. Ugly as hell. Broken? You decide.

Water
Similar to fairy, stacking the defensive waters with a Primarina is often necessary for balance water to handle Gouging, and Gouging has a lot of support to help these mons. Goodra-H on Primarina can force it out and get to freely cripple something (like pert?) with knock off, and Gouging can kill Toxapex at the cost of being toxic'd, and then just healing wishing it off. Kingdra rains or Primarina balances still can avoid losing to Gouging on its own, but its far from a slouch in the matchups thanks to its support options. Have seen a "just run Quagsire" argument but outside of Gouging existing this would just not be necessary. How valid this is depends on the builder.

Ghost
Run skeledirge or lose to be honest. Scarf Dragapult is another option but it's not hard for Gouging to either get 2 dd's off or just be bulky enough to live Draco, since there are spdef heavy sets that live up to 2 specs ice beams from Greninja, which take draco from scarfpult easily. Spdef heavy Gouging also just sits on most of ghost on its own so that hurts. Skeledirge you can also kind of safely spam Earthquake into and just burn out its slack offs, but this is iffy if they have earth power I guess. If you're using choice band Gouging into Skeledirge ghost, for the first time ever you need to actually make some predicts, but it still constantly can force kills.

Ground and Fighting
These two types are good into Gouging overall. Gougings defensive sets can prevent Valiant from being able to just rip through as easily as you'd like but aside from that the types have strong matchups into Gouging. (Try out Bulwark Gouging if you want to burn mixed Valiant btw).

Of the remaining types, Ice, Poison, Grass, and Poison just get fried without mercy by most Gouging sets if played well, and Normal, Psychic, Electric, Rock have messy answers into the mon individually, UrsalunanBM, Slowbro, IDpress Hands, and most rock types can take a hit and kill. That being said, even a lot of these types can end up struggling with choice band sun gouging, so there really is no safety net. But these types above all kind of suck, so this probably only really holds weight to any enthusiasts for them.

The grand point of the whole "matchup guide" I guess above is to show what I think is the reality of Gouging vs the tier, and whether or not upon seeing that if people think thats a healthy way to build. There is no denying that counterplay exists, but as I said many times, Gouging is adaptable to its counterplay. It is a versatile mon with versatile support. A lot of the argument is being focused around silly things like "nerfing dragon". That is not what this is about or ever should be about. Is the pokemon broken, yes or no. Make that call yourselves, consider if constricting the meta around this mon is the way to go. Please consider the future of the tier going forward if this pokemon does happen to stay.

A lot of people have echoed that it "isn't threatening in my experience" but I think this is due to its chokehold on the builder before the game even begins; people leave the builder heavily prepared. Regardless of that preparation, this pokemon does infact limit building while being unlimited itself, and this metagame is already struggling with a high level of skill expression and builder freedom. Pokemon of this power level should be removed, and everyone voicing their other-mon concerns are valid but they need to understand THIS one needs to go first. We can see how other shit feels when we enter a meta that is hopefully, far less constricted around 1 thing. Power balance of many types will change, and it will start with banning this mon. Point of most of my post was to help you guys make your own choices, but my choice will be ban.

 

[Chaitanya]

it should not be banned regardless if its type is the best of the best. Banning just for the sake of nerfing the typing as a whole is not really what is meant to happen.

I do agree with you, don't think gouging is the right suspect at the moment but I just wanted to leave this here.

Balloon Heatran is a good set in general, and also happens to completely shut down Flare-Quake Gouging. Cool. But what if its 3 attacks? You lose. So what, now you have to run Archaludon as well. Stacking answers for a singular mon feels great.

Phrasing this like arch isn't one of the best pokemon in the tier and that it would hinder steel is a bit wrong imo. Things like Kingdra rain have an incredible mu vs dragon as well, ice can absolutely beat dragon teams with gouging, and I don't think gouging affects how ice would play fire too much. Gouging can def break through ghost but so can flutter on the other side, Yes you're absolutely right there are a lot of different spreads gouging can run to find favor vs plenty of stuff but ultimately you can only run one of these spreads. Too often it is obvious enough based on team comp where you can play with a solid enough plan in mind in my opinion.

Can see dragon needing a nerf but I think the cries for it are exaggerated as well. I definitely agree with frnen/leaf that gouging isn't the main issue currently. Think if you need to suspect something it should be arch, it enables everything on the type really. Gouging is quite easily replaced in what it does for the most part i think, especially compared to the roles that arch fulfills. Ironically I think gouging could be a great leveler for dragon vs many teams that are favored vs dragon if Arch is banned so overall I think banning gouging would be a mistake before arch is looked at.


.

 

[Scarfire]

Phrasing this like arch isn't one of the best pokemon in the tier and that it would hinder steel is a bit wrong imo. Things like Kingdra rain have an incredible mu vs dragon as well, ice can absolutely beat dragon teams with gouging, and I don't think gouging affects how ice would play fire too much.

I was not phrasing this like Arch is a hinderace, my point was often 1 answer does not feel like enough; and in the case of steel, you really WOULD like atleast the option to drop a secondary Gouging Fire counter-measure in favor of running Hoodra for something nicer into Gren/Prima/Hydreigon. Its still an added limitation regardless of how good Archalu is. You can make an argument here however, that limiting steel is a good thing. Which might be true, but regardless in a post full of examples all this one is showing is that sometimes 1 measure isn't enough, not that Archaludon is some inherently shitmon you have to run to beat it. And Ice "can" absolutely beat dragon teams with Gouging, but it is just as incredibly easy for the Gouging to just sweep, Gouging has much more of a "you lose here" situation going for it.

Yes you're absolutely right there are a lot of different spreads gouging can run to find favor vs plenty of stuff but ultimately you can only run one of these spreads. Too often it is obvious enough based on team comp where you can play with a solid enough plan in mind in my opinion.

Like I said a few times in the post, a lot of types tend to lose to more sets than they beat. Yes the Gouging can only be one set at a time, but you often feel hella at the mercy of the Dragon/Fire player in regards to their prep; you have to hope they have the wrong set for the matchup you loaded. It being obvious at preview isn't really true either; even if you want to say like "oh if they have a Ninetales its obviously speed-band", there has and still sometimes is plenty scarf ninetales + dd Gouging builds, and on dragon Gouging is extremely free to toy with any set due to its support options.

Can see dragon needing a nerf but I think the cries for it are exaggerated as well. I definitely agree with frnen/leaf that gouging isn't the main issue currently. Think if you need to suspect something it should be arch, it enables everything on the type really. Gouging is quite easily replaced in what it does for the most part i think, especially compared to the roles that arch fulfills. Ironically I think gouging could be a great leveler for dragon vs many teams that are favored vs dragon if Arch is banned so overall I think banning gouging would be a mistake before arch is looked at.

I wanted to just shut this down with "please stick to talking about the mon being suspected", but beyond that, "Gouging is quite easily replaced in what it does for the most part i think, especially compared to the roles that arch fulfills."? Can you provide examples where this has been the case. I can definitely find many games where dragon has performed fine with Garchomp > Archaludon. Gouging-less I have not seen anywhere beyond people forcing it "just to see". There is so little reason to dropping this mon, almost none.

This part isn't to Chait in specific, but in general I really hope people drop this "it should be bax/archalu" nonsense, even if you believe it to be true, we did this same dance with icy rock/light clay for Bax suspect (turns out we should've banned that mon, crazy) and then with the 40+ mentions of Zama and Chien during the Shifu suspect. You guys have no sense of focus during these suspects.

 

[Chaitanya]

It being obvious at preview isn't really true either;

This was mostly in response to most of your post reading as it was based on the dragon teams tbh, sure I would agree fire has more variety in what can be run and is harder on preview but I don't think it is really close to broken on fire. I didn't say at preview though, Preview isn't easy yes but once you get into the game and figure out some speeds and sets, you have a general idea of what gouging likely is. Preview and team comp are v different things imo. Anw I've seen dragonite and garchomp take the place of gouging. Also seen dd moon with scarf pult Fairy is the main type that is tougher by a significant amount but you can compensate for it with things like physical arch, goodra + dnite instead of gouging + a lati twin, etc. Outside of fairy, the way games are played might change but I don't see many mu's changing excessively with gouging gone. Sure I wouldn't drop gouging either, but I would also never drop arch.
imo as simply as possible, I think gouging would never be close to broken without Arch, not true the other way around

Idk why zama/chien during shifu suspect convos are coming up. The argument with Arch is that Arch is directly tied to dragon being oppressive which is the main argument for banning gouging. not true for zama/chien/shifu stuff...

 

[FadedCharm]

I’m back at again because now I’m just disappointed. I’m almost done with ladder reqs and I think it’s quite haunting that there is so much backlash to this suspect test. it’s clear that history repeats itself and the the interest of players who genuinely care about the tier wanes.

We deflect to other mons which is a big no no in establishing the argument of why x mon should stay. Gouging fire is independently broken in its ability to break things like we have never seen before. Choice band sun boosted attacks 2 hit or ohkos everything very similar to victini spamming v-create with a band but without the drawbacks. Those that are claiming that it’s not a big deal because fire is questionable have never either seen in action or haven’t experienced it.

Gouging being enabled to be as dangerous as it is does not negate that the team support will always be there regardless if it’s not twave from several different mons its gonna be offensively checking the few that can maybe respond to gouging’s undying bulk. We keep deflecting and saying that oh it has (redacted) mon and that Mon is the problem. I for one call bullshit that defensive Mon that drops to strong special attacks and loses 1v1 to serval set up mons. Gouging does not and overwhelms everything with the power, recovery and its team support.

I want to talk about the bad future we are headed to failing to act and ban now. We have consistently seen in tournament play an overwhelming amount of dragon usage and teams that are clearly built around beating gouging fire. Then teams to counter them like we are playing a rock paper scissor ass metagame which isn’t ideal. In my personal opinion a meta should support as many types that can be viable that provides variety and shows the full competitive ability of any player through playing and building. If you look through the trend we are going by deflecting each suspect to another. We get nothing done. Doing nothing is the choosing the worst timeline as big tournaments and ladder play hyper centralizes around this meta game. People become uninterested, people step away from wanting to play and engage in the tier and we become trapped in a vacuum devoid of what makes mons fun.

I personally have not had fun playing this tier since serval mons have been allowed to stay in the tier( some of the same mons the dnb are now deflecting and saying are the real problem). But now we all have the ability to do something and we instead want to do not a thing..again. Some of those who are ok with gouging to staying in the tier, are also the ones who aren’t struggling to have fun or win in this dragon economy. Which congratulations to yall but think about all the other people that make up the community like the charizard9000s and newer players when making tiering decisions.

I will be voting ban. I encourage yall to do the same.

 

[cpt.kraken]

I have changed my mind. The mon is not banworthy. In fact it's way more dangerous in fire than in dragon. Either case, it's a strong mon but there are Chien-Pao, Kingambit, Flutter-Mane, Baxcalibur in the tier that must go. Archaludon is much more restrictive in teambuilding than Gouging Fire and I've swept and been swept a lot by this bridge. For me, it's a bit the same issue than Zamazenta : is it choice ? what moves does it run then ? is it iron defense body press ? Tho council chose to let Chien-Pao in the tier and ban the cute goldfish Chi-Yu (even if), also they think Zamazenta is fine, so Gouging Fire is fine. Tier is dead but the real issues aren't target. Even Flutter Mane can go only if Chien-Pao and Kingambit go to, otherwise it's more or less handle by the meta (dark before, dragon now).

As it came as a new toy, we all wanted to play with Gouging Fire bringing so much for both types, compressing roles. It's now a must have core for dragon with Archaludon, Baxcalibur, Dragapult and Gouging Fire. Gouging can be replaced as we did before with Goodra-Hisui defensively or offensively with so many toys. For fire, it will be more complicated but we don't save a type here.

Wanting to change something just to change something is a bit weird. So right now, in this meta, Gouging Fire is fine and hoping to see council a bit more active soon with better understanding of the meta or at least hearing what good players that can get their reqs say.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

I have changed my mind. The mon is not banworthy. In fact it's way more dangerous in fire than in dragon. Either case, it's a strong mon but there are Chien-Pao, Kingambit, Flutter-Mane, Baxcalibur in the tier that must go. Archaludon is much more restrictive in teambuilding than Gouging Fire and I've swept and been swept a lot by this bridge. For me, it's a bit the same issue than Zamazenta : is it choice ? what moves does it run then ? is it iron defense body press ? Tho council chose to let Chien-Pao in the tier and ban the cute goldfish Chi-Yu (even if), also they think Zamazenta is fine, so Gouging Fire is fine. Tier is dead but the real issues aren't target. Even Flutter Mane can go only if Chien-Pao and Kingambit go to, otherwise it's more or less handle by the meta (dark before, dragon now).

As it came as a new toy, we all wanted to play with Gouging Fire bringing so much for both types, compressing roles. It's now a must have core for dragon with Archaludon, Baxcalibur, Dragapult and Gouging Fire. Gouging can be replaced as we did before with Goodra-Hisui defensively or offensively with so many toys. For fire, it will be more complicated but we don't save a type here.

Wanting to change something just to change something is a bit weird. So right now, in this meta, Gouging Fire is fine and hoping to see council a bit more active soon with better understanding of the meta or at least hearing what good players that can get their reqs say.

I do agree with the general sentiment that this mon was most likely not the correct thing to put on the chopping block first and ahead of dangerous threats like Gambit, Arch, Zama, and Bax, but that doesn't mean removing it won't help the metagame move out of what is (in my eyes) entering an increasingly stale period with much of the meta being centralized around Dragon, anti-Dragon strategies, and anti-anti-Dragon strategies. As illustrated by FadedCharm in their post, the meta is starting to go down a treacherous path, and for what it's worth, we have new frontiers we can explore if we ban Gouging Fire.

Action on one thing, even if misplaced, does not mean that we should automatically disqualify this suspect.

 

[maroon]

i just want to remind everyone that this is absolutely not the place to be discussing other pokemon, this is a suspect for gouging fire not archaludon or whatever other pokemon you think is a bigger issue. also remember we do not use suspect threads to talk about other pokemon, how monotype is tiered etc, it again should only contain discussion on the suspect at hand. also please do not theory craft your votes based on whether or not you think the pokemon is not broken without support, when you vote you should point blank only be thinking about the current metagame.

i will be deleting every post from now on that goes off topic..

 

[Pengairxan]

I would like to ask a very genuine question to the DNB Crowd.
Do you have any actual reasons why Gouging Fire isn't oppressive and is instead, an actual healthy part of this meta game or is your entire argument that X, Y and Z are bigger problems, and by that, I mainly mean Archaludon is a bigger problem. Since from how I view it, that is the entirety of your argument, that Archaludon is a problem.

As a member of the ban crowd, Gouging Fire will continue to remain and issue even if/when Arcahaludon gets banned. If you want a Thunder wave support still, Dragonite, Latias, Latios, Dragapult, Hydreigon, Raging Bolt. All can still spread Thunder Wave and 3 of them also come with reliable recovery. This still allows Gouging Fire to easily DDance up and click buttons through teams since Gouging only has 3 weakness to actually abuse and still reliable bulk to back it up. Nothing will change, hell it may even make match-ups easier since now there is another Flying/Levitate mon for Ground to Deal with instead of Archaludon. And even then, you can run Gouging Fire without Thunder Wave support, I don't have the stats, but Thunder Wave is certainly not being run on every Dragon team.

So now ignoring your scapegoat of Archaludon.
Why is Gouging Fire a healthy Pokemon in the tier?
If the argument is that it Checks Chien-Pao and Fluttermane.
Then what happens if either of these Pokemon that many consider unhealthy, myself included, get thrown out of the tier? What is Gouging Fire checking then? Iron Valiant? Weavile? These aren't threats worth keeping an entire mon around for that can easily bully types without the high powered war crimes. And even then, broken checking broken is not a healthy metagame, its a metagame that scores less than 6/10 overall for both Fun and Competitiveness, nearly 5 exactly from the qualified player base, on the community survey.
If the argument is the poor speed stat.
Stuff like Annihilape, Urshifu-S, Palafin, and Chi-yu despite having the bare minimum of 100 speed or lower have all been banned and there is a call to action to ban both Bloodmoon and Archauldon as well and they are not speed demons even with their speed investments that they regularly run.
If the argument is that is reliant on Heavy-Duty Boots.
That isn't a solid enough argument because there are so many other threats that also want Heavy-Duty Boots like Bloodmoon, Chien-Pao, and Baxcalibur because their types also have horrible hazard removal because lets face it.
Horrid Hazard removal in Scarlet and Violet as a whole.

And Speaking of Fire.
Fire is still a type in this meta game, a type that in the unofficial VR by a bunch of top players was the third best type overall, only losing to Steel and Dragon. And is a type regularly has Gouging fire at a higher Attack or Speed for roughly 7~4 turns with other sun boosted treats like Ogerpon, Ceruledge, Volcarona, Volcanion and so on.
Why is Gouging Fire on well, Fire, not an issue? It isn't.
Sure it doesn't have Thunder Wave support now (well it still does through Rotom, but thats it) But it instead has multiple turns of Sun boosted attacks absolutely whacking your team. Followed up by more Sun Boosted Attacks from the rest of its team.
(I hope this wasn't too much Archaludon.)

 

[adjustments]

I would like to ask a very genuine question to the DNB Crowd.
Do you have any actual reasons why Gouging Fire isn't oppressive and is instead, an actual healthy part of this meta game or is your entire argument that X, Y and Z are bigger problems, and by that, I mainly mean Archaludon is a bigger problem. Since from how I view it, that is the entirety of your argument, that Archaludon is a problem.

As a member of the ban crowd, Gouging Fire will continue to remain and issue even if/when Arcahaludon gets banned. If you want a Thunder wave support still, Dragonite, Latias, Latios, Dragapult, Hydreigon, Raging Bolt. All can still spread Thunder Wave and 3 of them also come with reliable recovery. This still allows Gouging Fire to easily DDance up and click buttons through teams since Gouging only has 3 weakness to actually abuse and still reliable bulk to back it up. Nothing will change, hell it may even make match-ups easier since now there is another Flying/Levitate mon for Ground to Deal with instead of Archaludon. And even then, you can run Gouging Fire without Thunder Wave support, I don't have the stats, but Thunder Wave is certainly not being run on every Dragon team.

So now ignoring your scapegoat of Archaludon.
Why is Gouging Fire a healthy Pokemon in the tier?
If the argument is that it Checks Chien-Pao and Fluttermane.
Then what happens if either of these Pokemon that many consider unhealthy, myself included, get thrown out of the tier? What is Gouging Fire checking then? Iron Valiant? Weavile? These aren't threats worth keeping an entire mon around for that can easily bully types without the high powered war crimes. And even then, broken checking broken is not a healthy metagame, its a metagame that scores less than 6/10 overall for both Fun and Competitiveness, nearly 5 exactly from the qualified player base, on the community survey.
If the argument is the poor speed stat.
Stuff like Annihilape, Urshifu-S, Palafin, and Chi-yu despite having the bare minimum of 100 speed or lower have all been banned and there is a call to action to ban both Bloodmoon and Archauldon as well and they are not speed demons even with their speed investments that they regularly run.
If the argument is that is reliant on Heavy-Duty Boots.
That isn't a solid enough argument because there are so many other threats that also want Heavy-Duty Boots like Bloodmoon, Chien-Pao, and Baxcalibur because their types also have horrible hazard removal because lets face it.
Horrid Hazard removal in Scarlet and Violet as a whole.

And Speaking of Fire.
Fire is still a type in this meta game, a type that in the unofficial VR by a bunch of top players was the third best type overall, only losing to Steel and Dragon. And is a type regularly has Gouging fire at a higher Attack or Speed for roughly 7~4 turns with other sun boosted treats like Ogerpon, Ceruledge, Volcarona, Volcanion and so on.
Why is Gouging Fire on well, Fire, not an issue? It isn't.
Sure it doesn't have Thunder Wave support now (well it still does through Rotom, but thats it) But it instead has multiple turns of Sun boosted attacks absolutely whacking your team. Followed up by more Sun Boosted Attacks from the rest of its team.
(I hope this wasn't too off topic.)

i suppose i'll give my 2 cents here... btw this post^ does exactly what maroon just said not to do so lol.
but anyways, as much as i want to vote no ban on this mon, i can't say with full confidence that it is not overly centralizing and unhealthy for this meta. if we put gouging fire in a vacuum it kind of does exhibit some qualities of a broken pokemon, and then once you relate it to the current meta those qualities do kinda become exemplified, maybe more so on fire than dragon, but either way the point stands. also the support it receives in the current meta can mask those qualities.
i also do not understand where this no ban movement comes from especially when, on the survey, gouging fire was voted on by both the general and qualified voters as the pokemon that needs dire action taken. there were so many complaints post-MWP that gouging fire was the heart of this dull meta. sure, if we ban it, we need to wait for things to settle, but then that means we are at least getting the ball rolling to bettering the tier, but that may be straying too far off relevance.
i don't feel like yapping anymore but i do think i am leaning more towards ban so i'll spare y'all and leave it here.

 

[Cielau]

Yo, I don't write a lot but I think it's usefull here. Like I saw lot of debate on this suspect. To beginning, just wanted to remember we did a tiering survey just before and gouging was the pokemon with the biggest consensus for a tiering action. And y, they had only 8 mons on this survey but we had to make a selection, and then we have chosen mons that seemed the most problematic for the mono. Don't meant it set in stone !!! But we have to begin somewhere or we will never be able to improve thing. Imo we tried to let the choice of the community to decide of the first suspect. Well, don't think it was the place to explain that, but I think it could help to understand how we process.

Now about gouging, I personnaly play only dragon during the suspect (used 3 different team with always gouging), and yeah, my first impression was clearly "it's too strong". Maybe not the broken mon of the tier, but it's for sure broken imo.
face.

Why ? Imo the main argument is the real difficulty to scout the set of the gouging. U can't really know the spread before a scout, and then u have to keep all ur solution to manage: full atk/speed set or full spe def/hp set or scarf/band in fire. And honnestly with that u could even lose to a weird spicy spread, if gouging is still in tier for MPL, u could be sure u will saw so many expert spread for lot of thing. I think the match who show the most that difficulty is the 2nd game of the finale between Toadow and Tmoi

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-741452

Tmoi play all the game considering the gouging was spe def and then slower than his archa scarf. Easy to let thinking that, with a switch. But like in reality the toadow's gouging was full/speed jolly, he sack all his other solution to manage this set and lose the game on that.
And In reality, if it was full spe def

252+ SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gouging Fire: 342-404 (82.6 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Gouging can manage it (but u lose if twave scarf archa in the game)

But yeah the 2nd point is how hard it's to kill gouging, it's like having to manage dnite multiscale but with a better type offensively and defensively. If u try to revenge kill him with a dragon mon, u just risk to let him at 20% and lost ur mon on a dclaw. That's why the main solution to manage the mon is twave. Roar/dtail just help u to tempo.

Last point imo is how the mon synergise perfectly with dragon, fire/dragon is so huge in mono cuz u have globally the same advantage of the steel type but with an offensive aspect. + on a tier with flutter mane + valient allowed + chien pao + well lot of broken.exe... It's a benediction.

So ok I can agree on a thing, dragon will probably stay top tier if the mon is ban, but honnestly it stays one of the main reason why dragon is the best tier now. I'm still thinking it will always help to ban this mon, on the plan of the meta (dragon need a nerf), and just about the mon. It's a mon who give u significant disadvantage if u don't play him + give u a significant advantage against globally all the type in the meta. I think people who think the mon is fine, think that because we have to overprep dragon and then have always more than 1 solution to manage the type so gouging. I think they are worst, but consider only the gouging aspect, I will vote ban !

 

[Fraolain]

Imo the main argument is the real difficulty to scout the set of the gouging. U can't really know the spread before a scout, and then u have to keep all ur solution to manage: full atk/speed set or full spe def/hp set or scarf/band in fire.

I'll have to disagree with this.
Now I can fully agree that, knowing the exact spread of a gouging is completely impossible on preview and only involve subjective guessing. But, there is 2 points I just can't seem to comprehend behind this statement.

((Note that I'm only talking about Gouging in Dragon, as most people I've seen seems to want to ban it to "nerf" the overcentralizing dragon type, and saw very few people complaining about the mon in fire, I think it's more fitting to only talk of it with its dragon teammates ?.))
First you say that there are too many set to guess from. Let's count them then ? There is: bulky and not bulky. This amount to a grand total of... 2 sets. The question as to whether or not it's physically or specially bulky isn't really that much of a wild guess since you can make fair assumptions thanks to its other teammates. I don't want to sound too much of a smartass but I'm FAIRLY sure that there's a pretty big majority of Pokémon in this tier that has 2 or more different sets to guess from, gouging is no different in that regard.

The second point is you saying that it's supposedly hard to keep every one of your check to manage it without knowing what it is first. That just doesn't feel right to me. I also don't like your example, because instead of showing the unpredictable nature of the mon, to me it looks more like an unfortunate building decision from tmoi here, simply because a physdef archaludon would have checked both set. The fact you can't guess which set a mon is from preview is a given in any tier, and any gen, that's why we ever make "midground" plays and try to build with the multiple sets the mon has in mind. There is obviously some mons that push this idea to its limit, but saying a mon is hard to scout and unpredictable just because it has like 2 or 3 spreads seems like a weak argument to me.




To bounce off, here are my thoughts on this suspect.
I will most definitely vote Do Not Ban. While Gouging is a strong asset to dragon type, and the community, myself included, has had positive feeling toward an action to be taken, I just think gouging isn't the one that has to go. As I somewhat stated earlier I don't think this mon is broken or even unhealthy. Yes its existence in the tier might correlate to dragon's overbearing success in some way, but banning a mon only for that reason feels dumb to me. Like, we've never banned a flying mon in past gens just because the type was too good, it makes much more sense to take action on the truly broken/uncompetitive/unhealthy mons instead of banning something just to "shake thing up".

 

[Cielau]

I'll have to disagree with this.
Now I can fully agree that, knowing the exact spread of a gouging is completely impossible on preview and only involve subjective guessing. But, there is 2 points I just can't seem to comprehend behind this statement.

((Note that I'm only talking about Gouging in Dragon, as most people I've seen seems to want to ban it to "nerf" the overcentralizing dragon type, and saw very few people complaining about the mon in fire, I think it's more fitting to only talk of it with its dragon teammates ?.))
First you say that there are too many set to guess from. Let's count them then ? There is: bulky and not bulky. This amount to a grand total of... 2 sets. The question as to whether or not it's physically or specially bulky isn't really that much of a wild guess since you can make fair assumptions thanks to its other teammates. I don't want to sound too much of a smartass but I'm FAIRLY sure that there's a pretty big majority of Pokémon in this tier that has 2 or more different sets to guess from, gouging is no different in that regard.

The second point is you saying that it's supposedly hard to keep every one of your check to manage it without knowing what it is first. That just doesn't feel right to me. I also don't like your example, because instead of showing the unpredictable nature of the mon, to me it looks more like an unfortunate building decision from tmoi here, simply because a physdef archaludon would have checked both set. The fact you can't guess which set a mon is from preview is a given in any tier, and any gen, that's why we ever make "midground" plays and try to build with the multiple sets the mon has in mind. There is obviously some mons that push this idea to its limit, but saying a mon is hard to scout and unpredictable just because it has like 2 or 3 spreads seems like a weak argument to me.




To bounce off, here are my thoughts on this suspect.
I will most definitely vote Do Not Ban. While Gouging is a strong asset to dragon type, and the community, myself included, has had positive feeling toward an action to be taken, I just think gouging isn't the one that has to go. As I somewhat stated earlier I don't think this mon is broken or even unhealthy. Yes its existence in the tier might correlate to dragon's overbearing success in some way, but banning a mon only for that reason feels dumb to me. Like, we've never banned a flying mon in past gens just because the type was too good, it makes much more sense to take action on the truly broken/uncompetitive/unhealthy mons instead of banning something just to "shake thing up".

In dragon, I can accept u have only 2 sets, at the preview it's what u will usually expect. For a majority of mon it's not really a problem, they are even some mon who have 4-5 sets and it's not a decent reason for a ban (think about landorus past gen), that's true, if it was the only argument. It's not this mon have 3 sets yo let's ban it, it's, ok gouging have this different set and in game it's hard to check all of them in game and during the teambuild.

Also I can give u some exemple of thing who make gouging hard to check. In water the gouging check is probably toxapex, but yeah I'm not sure toxa really like come on a eq 252atk from gouging with spikes + sr set up. Then it's probably an unaware set, quag or clodsire in ground and poison ? Same shit honnestly it's really easy to just click on an other mon to take an advantage. I saw some people play gholdengo rh + twave, it checks lot of thing and with some difficulty gouging, but that mon can't really take a flare blitz at +1 or even an eq at +1 from a 252 atk. Same for archaludon, prob one of the best check of gouging atm, consider drag and steel are both really good atm. But u can abusing of him too, u said for the game in finale of the circuit Tmoi did probably a misstake in building, I'm not sure honnestly. Cuz scarf archaludon really help against dragon globally, u just have to pay attention about gouging and cheap him a bit, but I think the idea was just to twave him and then later, dm. And it would probably works if toadow played a spe def set or if Tmoi expect the full atk full speed set (he just have to keep archa not in range of gouging at +1). Honnestly a full def set, would not really change the issue and the difficulty to check dragon and gouging.
Lot of words to just said, dragon abuse of the capacity of gouging to be at the same time the best moonblast inner AND a constant threat u have to play arround.
Also, now they are 2 sets in dragon, but like I said during an mpl a set with sub + lefto to abuse of people who count to much on twave/toxic to manage gouging (or even air ballon + sub, bigup gliscor). Yeah nah, it's def more difficult than u said imo. And I don't thing I said something wrong when I said it's an argument in favor of the ban of gouging.

If people have the ref, Baxcalibur = Kakami and Gouging = Kuroko

Funny thing to said, some people underestimate the work of gouging to make dragon broken. If I talk about my feeling during reqs, It was gouging in -> double on one of my other set up mon -> set up and do massive dammage
And if it not works, I always have the option, trust on the power gouging and globally that works cuz to manage dragon it's hard to don't weaken ur team. U have the chance to break the status quo, don't miss it !

 

[Gelbel3c]

Hello there, I don't usually talk here but let's go. And also in the reflexion : I'm a player who mainly like to goof around with cringe shit and types on the ladder, or just playing cringe tiers where building is heavely present (DraftLeague, Threat). Oh and : I do not care about the 'order' of suspects, gouging was the number 1 customer on the survey so his suspect follow, that seems just logical to me (and I don't care about archa, it's purely not the subject here).
When a mon is suspect, my process is always divised in 3 reflexions : the first one being on the mon itself, the second one where it evolves and the last on the building (restriction).

The mon itself :
Gouging is ridiculous imo, I know we can have somewhat not so-bad checks, but it's a point where it feels pretty unhealthy for me. I mean we're talking about a mon with 105/121/93 as def stats + healing move, and not so bad offensive stats too (he have a big presence even with bulky spreads, 115 BS blitz is no joke for a snuffing defensive mon). The mon, considering itself only, have the potential to play around his counters, can just not play dd at all if he wants too (but the opponant have to account this possibility), and have a lot of customisation with his spreads. The raw bulk create a lot of setup opportunities, and give the fabulous niche for gouging to be what I like to call the mega-scizor theorem : you're checking a lot of things, and you're a tremendous wincond at the same time, especially vs HO, and more especially vs HO who doesn't hard prep this specific MU.

Mega-zor was never broken by any means, but gouging hits this definition here, and here's why : the context where the mon is played.

Here, the context is problematic at least : dragon is so cracked it isn't funny. It's a whole, I know that at least, but for me it really is gouging that allows all that shit to happen. Or at least it's the best enabler for all that cracked 600 BS mons to steamroll out of control. The typing is a pure defensive dinguerie, and allows the mon to reliably check a lot of shit. Even if the mon just heals itself all the game, just that fact can block pao, flutter (or all the funny things you want) and don't allow them to steamroll out of control after your check is gone (previously goodra-h or dragalge). I NEVER saw such diversity in dragon, and for me that's mainly because of gouging : I see full well the archa argument and agree to an extend, but I really do think the stage dragon hits right know is because of steroids entei. Having a glue mon like this just allows all you want to shine : you can secure more easely setup opportunities (like not only on soulread double, revenge killing or hard the mon and pray) and it's a reason why baxca is also so problematic now (for me it always was). I know banning gouging will not melt the dragon right away, but I mean if that's an argument by itself we can ban nothing at all. I strongly think only ban 1 mon in dragon will slow down too much his domination. Anw, I'm not particularly on "nerfing" the type, if a mon is broken and enable all his comrades to go crazy, I simply do not want that.

Finally, the building restrictions.
Yeah no here I definitively think this mon is too much. I like BO of course, I mean goleming is cool but.... I did not see a single HO (without screens) on the ladder for my suspect, and the popularity of the playstyle dropped really significantly since dragon started to dance (the core archa + gouging is a "where's your buzz ?" button for HO). The variety of types dropped really badly too : certains types (a lot, actually) have just too limited options againt gouging + comrades. If you have a check gouging, it's fine, but if that shit does nothing besides checking the lion (?), you're in big trouble against 600 bs amigos. Poke is 6v6. It's not fun for me to just not be able to play a variety of type because of certain mons (I hate so much pao and flutter but that's not the subject), gouging hits the spot of limiting teambuilding for a lot of types and I never saw a BUILDING metagame this closed around one type before, who was your funny little brother at best before (it was good but not the staple). It's logical to have defining top tier types or mons in all metagames, but dragon is here on an other dimension compared to fly in 8g for exemple.
I got cooked by a gouging breaking swipe endgame mixed def (I assume, I'm not even sure bec of damage rolls lmao what a mon) at a moment : my tusk was high enough in hp to take even the offensive ones, but swipe wiped me. We can call that a cringe set if we want, but the issue remains the same : I think I don't have enough room in building to build against gouging + all the metagame. In this example BU sr spin tusk would have won, but I mean come on... It's exagerated I know, but I mean everyone hard prep gouging rn, and a lot of his sets does not requires the same mons to check it (having 3 differents spreads on a dd mon like this is ABSURD and actually a big deal). In my book it's just too much for my enjoyment, and my definition for balanced in general.
I forgot to mention sun, the calcs are just hilarious and bulk + hwish support his just... yes.

I'll definitively vote ban here. I can understand the no ban arguments but, at the end, all of this does not hit the definition of an healthy mon to me. It's not a story of nerfing a type or "x can do better", I'm convinced at this point gouging have to go. Dude is way too much, even if I know how to build around dragon and him in particular, I really hate the direction such building restrictions involves.

Sheesh it was way too long, I'm sorry lmao (especially if the english is trash, french clause lmao)

 

[mushamu]

A Pokemon doesn't have to be straight up broken to be banworthy, it could simply be simply unhealthy, like in Gouging Fire's case making Dragon too powerful and being a restricting presence for the rest of the metagame.

There has been many precedented cases of Pokemon and items being banned after making a type too strong. Aegislash would probably not be broken in SM Monotype if it was on a worse type that was not Steel and therefore had less team support. Banning Pokemon on types like Psychic and Steel in older generations were fairly common to nerf the types so that the metagame could be more balanced as a result. There has even been precedence on Flying in ORAS where Pokemon on the type was looked at when the type was considered too strong, albeit under another tiering philosophy. A strong example of this in another tier is Mega Sableye in ORAS OU, where it was banned in order to nerf an overwhelming playstyle in stall. The point is a Pokemon doesn't necessarily need to 6-0 and blow shit open at preview in many matchups in order to be banworthy, ultimately it's important to look at how a Pokemon impacts a tier to really determine whether or not it should be gone. When tiering team support is everything; we've seen some Uber level Pokemon be hardly relevant in Monotype just because they are forced on an awful type. Some Pokemon impact the tier negatively by indeed blowing shit open and 6-0 teams at preview, at the end of the day negatively impacting the tier by making one type too strong and centralizing is also very realistic.

Personally I will be voting ban on Gouging Fire since I feel it makes Dragon too strong in the current metagame to the point where the type is overly constricting. It's definitely not a Pokemon that is impossible to answer offensively, but the main aspects to me that make it banworthy are the defensive utility that it provides to Dragon. There are many factors that make me believe this Pokemon is banworthy, but the main thing is that what it provides to Dragon teams make huge difference in how the type functions that banning it would be the first step to balancing out the metagame by loosening Dragon's grip on it. I'm not going to highlight why Gouging Fire and not Archaludon/Baxcalibur since the thread isn't about that anymore but a Fire typing with incredible bulk and recovery glues Dragon together very well. You get an Ice and Fairy neutrality, and Morning Sun recovery means that you can come in multiple times against threats like Flutter Mane, Chien-pao, Enamorus, and Kingambit and instantly reverse all progress that they have made against you. It's possible to argue that Hisuian Goodra and Archaludon also do this to an extent, but these two Pokemon don't have recovery and it's easy to whittle them down through hazards and Knock Off whereas Gouging Fire can click Morning Sun throughout the game. The defensive presence now opens up doors for where Dragon's potential shines through other powerhouses like Baxcalibur, Dragapult, Kyurem, and Roaring Moon. Gouging Fire doesn't need to use Dragon Dance to sweep in most games since just walling opposing Pokemon enough for the other monsters on the type to put in work is good enough for it to be a huge nusiance in most matchups.

Sorry if this post is hard to read since I'm tired but yeah I just wanted to get out my perspective on why I feel Gouging Fire is unhealthy for the metagame despite not being straight up broken.

 

[TTK]

So I have gotten reqs a few mins ago and I will say I am currently Do Not Ban as I feel the ban side has failed to sufficiently sway me towards their side and I'll explain my thought processes regarding Gouging Fire.

Going into this suspect, I, like many others in the community, thought Gouging was a banworthy pokemon (make a note of how I'm not describing Gouging as "broken", which seems to be a very synonymous term with a banworthy pokemon) and was ready to vote ban ban ban. However, the dnb side came out of the woodworks. Arguments claiming "gouging is a non issue, x is. Or y is more "broken" than gouging". I am not here to tell you Baxcalibur or Archaludon are the biggest issues on Dragon, whether or not I believe it or not is irrelevant at this time. I'm here to evaluate Gouging on its own merit, rather than think about any other potential "brokens".

The reason why I do not believe Gouging to be banworthy is that I do not find it too much to handle in this tier. You could claim that I am prepared for it so that's proof of centralisation but is Gouging really the individual driving force behind the domination of Dragon? I do not believe this to be the case. I think back to before DLC2 and Dragon was not the top dog. DLC2 comes out, what do we get? We get , which is irrelevant to Dragon. We got , which is frankly a mediocre option on Dragon, we got , which was a Hoodra upgrade and we got , the subject of our suspect. We also got pokemon back like the Latis and Kyurem. Half of these additions suddenly elevated the type to dominating ladder, dominating tournaments. You have to acknowledge Dragon's power was already quite high with mons like , , , but gaining two pokemon that helped the type defensively which Dragon was lacking, is what I believe caused Dragon to get high. Gouging Fire's neutrality to Fairy + Archaludon's neutrality to Ice, Dragon and Fairy covered all of Dragon's weaknesses and when you're a type that has only 2 resistances (immunities) included, vs some of our underpowered types, yes, Dragon will dominate.

One major thing for me as well is that Gouging isn't even an unhealthy pokemon on Fire teams, its other typing people fail to mention when talking about it. Some rate Fire somewhat highly but I think it's like a high B type so nothing too bad, but it's not like super duper good imo. Evaluate our banlist and exclude any boxart legendary/obvious bans, how many dual-typed pokemon are banned because they were too strong/broken/unhealthy on just one of their types? The answer is an astounding zero. Gouging's best sets are defensive setup sets and Fire cannot run them as efficiently as they can on Dragon because the support is just worse on Fire, it lacks proper bulky pokemon and its offensive teammates are certainly weaker than the behemoths Dragon has to offer.

I would like to ask a very genuine question to the DNB Crowd.
Do you have any actual reasons why Gouging Fire isn't oppressive and is instead, an actual healthy part of this meta game or is your entire argument that X, Y and Z are bigger problems, and by that, I mainly mean Archaludon is a bigger problem. Since from how I view it, that is the entirety of your argument, that Archaludon is a problem.

The burden of proof is not on the dnb side to suggest whether the mon is banworthy or not because we are not the ones attempting to change the status quo as per Tiering Policy but I, myself have stated that it's a mon I don't find myself prepping for or worrying about because Gouging is not the "strongest" pokemon on Dragon. What needs to change is reducing Dragon's offensive capabilities, not its defensive capabilities and while you're probably wondering "Gouging is offensive it sets up DD", Gouging is not a problem if it only has 1 or even 2 DDs. If you're prepping for Dragon in general, you will have counterplay to stop DD mons in general, not just specifically Gouging, whether that's Whirlwind or , Twaving it or using Dragons of your own because in the mirror, it is just spamming Draco Meteor and such.

All in all, it's seeming like Gouging might be banned or it will incredibly close. If Gouging doesn't get banned, I'm hoping we have a contingency plan in place and the council should understand our next steps of action. If Gouging does get banned, it's a shame because we're losing a mon that wasn't the problem but in the future, I hope it will be retested when our tier gets rid of the mons it should've been rid of all this time.