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Hello again everyone, with the recent conclusion of the Baxcalibur suspect test and the survey results in mind, the Monotype council has near-unanimously voted to throw Urshifu-S on to the chopping block next. Following Baxcalibur, Urshifu-S received the most support for tiering action with close to 60% of the survey-takers answering in favor of tiering action on the Kung-Fu bear. As such, we've opted to suspect test Urshifu-S as the third suspect of this generation.
Unlike Baxcalibur, Urshifu-S was banished from the tier since the get-go when it first dropped with Pokemon HOME; this was in most part due to its new found access to Swords Dance which pushed it over the top at the time. However, with the Teal Mask DLC release, Urshifu-S was given a second chance in SV Monotype as many believed it would fail to display similar levels of dominance that it used to in the new, significantly more offense-oriented metagame. However, things haven't been as black and white as many imagined it to be; Urshifu hasn't missed a beat since it last departed the tier and has successfully solidified its status as a top-tier threat in the current metagame as well. For starters, Urshifu-S finds itself on two of the best types in the current metagame: Dark and Fighting; both of which are more than capable of providing excellent support for Urshifu-S, further facilitating Swords Dance Urshifu-S winpaths more often than not. Dark-type has the luxury of providing Urshifu-S with a reliable defensive core to fall back on with Pokemon such as Sableye, Mandibuzz and Alolan Muk in addition to other offensive threats such as Chien-Pao and Kingambit. Meanwhile, Fighting-type teams boast a great supporting cast of threats like Iron Hands, Iron Valiant and Great Tusk with immense firepower to complement Urshifu's offensive presence; all of which help further exacerbate Urshifu's presence within the tier. Furthermore, its newfound access to Swords Dance in Scarlet & Violet in tandem with its near-unresisted STAB coverage, especially in a metagame where not every type has the lap of luxury to run defensive Fairy-types, on top of priority in Sucker Punch to mitigate its middling speed tier have all paved the way for its dominance. That said, Urshifu-S is still very capable of running other sets such as Choice Scarf, Choice Band or even Bulk Up sets all of which mandate slightly different counterplay and thus making it virtually impossible to account for all of its sets in one go without compromising the rest of the team to a noticeable degree.
All of that said, Urshifu-S is not without flaws. As stated earlier, among many of the things that the DLC blessed us with is a much more offensive metagame and Urshifu's middling 97 base speed proves to be a major limiting factor with almost all of the tier's best offensive Pokemon having north of a base 100 speed tier. This in turn leads to an overreliance on Sucker Punch to mitigate its middling speed stat and as such diminishes the luxury of running coverage moves such as Iron Head or Poison Jab for most Urshifu-S to better deal with its natural checks like Galarian Weezing, Azumarill and Iron Valiant. This overreliance on Sucker Punch also renders it vulnerable to utility moves like status, Encore and Substitute, resulting in complex mind games at times. Moreover, Urshifu-S doesn't mandate outlandish counterplay as most teams are naturally equipped to deal with it to a noticeable extent with types like Flying, Poison and Ice being blessed with some of the best Fairy-type Pokemon in the tier while other types such as Water and Ground have access to reliable Unaware users.
All in all, Urshifu-S has been a hot topic of debate within the tier ever since it was freed with the DLC release in hopes of turning a new leaf on its fate. With all this and the survey results taken into consideration in tandem with the metagame remaining unchanged following the previous suspect test, we ultimately decided to suspect test Urshifu-S.
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In order to cast a vote in this suspect test, you must participate on the [Gen 9] Monotype ladder in which Urshifu-S will continue to be allowed. You must make a new account to ladder with. This account's registration date must be at earliest the day this suspect begins. You must prefix your account name with the tag: USSFU1 in order for your account to qualify. Tagging Kris to implement this on the ladder!
The requirement for qualification is at least 82% GXE and at least 40 games played. The suspect test will last a bit over two weeks until Sunday, November 05th @ 11:59 PM EDT (GMT-4). You will then have three days to cast your vote. Urshifu-S will require a 60% majority of voters in favor of banning it in order for it to be banned from Monotype.
Upon meeting the requirements, you must post proof of the qualification in the Voter Identification thread, which is separate from this thread and will be created closer to the end of the suspect. Do not post your proof in this discussion thread.
You may use this thread to discuss this Urshifu-S suspect or ask for clarification for any questions you may have.
You may not use this thread to post one-liners or discuss topics unrelated to this specific suspect, such as possible future suspects.
Please stay respectful when you post and follow all Monotype forum rules. Please also make sure to follow the Monotype tiering philosophy found here.
Just to be clear and avoid confusion, there will be no changes for requirements for anyone that qualified for the previous suspect test. If you wish to vote for this suspect, you will need to get requirements with a new alt with the prefix on the OP (USSFU1) regardless of if you did or did not vote for the Baxcalibur suspect test.
Alright boys, let's get to talking. We didn't even break page TWO in the last suspect. Even though the result turned favorably for me, I still think we could have gotten to the bottom of each other's perspectives in the last thread better and more thoroughly
I would have preferred a quickban on this 'mon but I remember asking for a suspect on the survey instead. Even though I want it out ASAP, I was curious why it wasn't quickbanned now when it was quickbanned before. That made me more interested in having a suspect to hear what changed so much between pre-home and home that it's now no longer quickban worthy
To go with that, I have some replays I got from my tour games this week and while laddering up for reqs with just fighting types. I went by the name "USSFU1 Ada Glasses" and like the name suggests I was using Urshifu on Adamant and Black Glasses. Ada Glasses just maximizes Urshifu's damage to unholy degrees, DISMANTLING walls at +2 (which it can easily get with its good phys bulk) and beating revenge killers/anything frail & faster with ridiculously strong sucker punches. The content in the replays might be played better with max hindsight view activated but I think they do a good job of illustrating some of Urshifu's ban-worthy traits
That's just some of the reasons to ban this beast and just from within the last two days of my games. I would love to see what everyone else managed to collect for Urshifu but I'd also like to hear about what I missed and what's different now
Also all of you should post something and share your thoughts so we know what to discuss further and maybe change some minds, we had like 10 posts last time lol
Urshifu is one of the most overwhelming and over centralizing Mons out right now. There is not a single check to every single one of their sets if you’re not playing the fairy type.
What’s often not considered to is how it blows through would be checks depending on the set. Enamorus for example takes a +2 252 Atk Black Glasses Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 183-216 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. It can only do that one time with rocks up before it outright loses. Adamant is a favorable roll to out right ohko with rocks. This is one of flyings few checks to that set. You may say oh you can just slap boots on it and you’ll be fine but then you lose to the plethora of team support you have from both types if you forgo it’s main item in scarf. The point of this example is to illustrate that building becomes incredibly complicated in an unhealthy way when trying to figure out what set could urshifu be running before it’s too late. Choice band is punching holes into resists, scarf is catching wannabe checks. Black glasses SD is breaking down teams lacking a bulky fairy type. I’ve even seen metronome sets go absolutely crazy because how spamable wicked blow is into so many pivotal Pokémon. There’s plenty of good Pokémon that have many sets that you have to figure out, but none are as dire as urshifu. For example getting the iron vailant set wrong doesn’t set you back to a point of no return, because it’s a balanced mon that has many forms of counter play to all of its sets from every type. Getting the urshifu set wrong means 2 or more mons are gone before you blink.
Important things to consider is that it has the team support to deal with every would be check/counter on both types. You have sabyele encoring set up sweepers in ID corviknight, protean users that easily optimize to deal with said checks, okidogi/iron hands eating would be fairy moves and threatening everything back, Zamazenta who can easily deal with would be checks with its plethora of sets it can run.
You can’t check all of its sets with one slot often having to dedicate 2 slots to barley hit some of them. The rest of the 4 are hopefully good enough to deal with Both types that it’s on. Constricting the builder further in an already strapped for spots meta game.
What can do you when you have a volcarona dancing in your shed, ursuluna calming its mind, chein-pao on the prowl, baxcailbur waiting for rent, kingambit plotting in the back, and flutter mane haunting your dreams. The best thing you can do is get rid of the bear threatening you with a wicked blow to your pride.
This is true of many other mons as well--for example, there's no single check to Dragapult (Specs/Band/DD/HexWisp all have different checks/counters), and other mons like Iron Valiant, Zoroak-hisui (Multiple sets in Scarf, Specs, and HexWisp, and can illusion as other things as a bonus!), and Greninja (Band/Specs/etc) all have their ability to pick and choose their checks/counters.
For example getting the iron vailant set wrong doesn’t set you back to a point of no return, because it’s a balanced mon that has many forms of counter play to all of its sets from every type.
Getting the iron valiant set wrong can easily set you down a path of no return. If you're playing water, for example, losing Gastrodon to an unexpected Energy Ball when you thought it was choiced on Tbolt can mean you lose to Choiced Tbolt Flutter Mane later. Similar examples can be given for sets like Wood Hammer Mimikyu and Choice Specs/Scarf Cyclizar (before you call choice scarf/specs an unset-- I've used both specs and scarf before, they're really good and cause 50/50s between attacking/shedtail even after the set is revealed). "Guess the set" is not a game solely attributed to Urshifu, and there are countless situations where guessing the set wrong means the loss of an important mon.
You can’t check all of its sets with one slot often having to dedicate 2 slots to barley hit some of them. The rest of the 4 are hopefully good enough to deal with Both types that it’s on. Constricting the builder further in an already strapped for spots meta game.
On the contrary-- It's possible to check every Urshifu set while dedicating exactly zero slots solely to checking it, even while not playing Fairy. For example, Poison is running Weezing-Galar and/or Sneasler regardless; Fire runs a lot of faster mons that can wisp it, as well as Tauros and Infernape; Ground often runs Great Tusk which kinda bodies Urshifu with scarf CC or defensive Body Press, Fighting checks it with any scarfer and Iron Valiant and other naturally faster mons, Electric often runs Sub Zapdos as a automatic check to 90% of urshifus out there, Ghost runs Sub NP Spectrier and/or Mimikyu, Grass has Scarf Meow and/or Mach Punch Breloom, etc etc.
Note that the team above was made post-home before the DLC release, all the mons/sets are slotted there without regard for Ushifu's place in the metagame. Note how naturally Urshifu is checked: Toxapex scouts Choiced sets due to Regenerator, there are multiple switchins to choiced Wicked blow (Urshifu-rapid and Sammurott), Samurott-hisui outspeeds +2 Urshifu and revenge kills it with Sacred Sword, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike outspeeds adamant varients, and if all else fails Rotom-W outspeeds and burns it. Unsurprisingly, I did not run into any problems with Urshifu during my 80 games of grinding for 2 reqs runs, despite not accounting for it at all during teambuilding.
I see this replay as an example of good play allowing you to overcome an otherwise terrible matchup. I don't think playing better, and getting rewarded for good play by a sweep at the end of the game, is a problem that needs to be fixed by bans.
I see this replay as an example of Garry getting punished for not bringing Amoonguss-- If Garry had Amoonguss to switch into great Tusk instead, it would be more difficult to force out G-weezing as much and weakening it down for Urshifu to sweep. Also Garry probably would lose this regardless due to the Gallade in preview LOL
He was simply not prepped for Urshifu. Ghost does have fantastic options for doing so (such as Mimikyu and Sub NP Spectrier), the fact that he chose to run a Sableye instead of these options is his problem. A refusal to prep for something despite having the tools to do so does not make a mon broken.
Overall, I don't see Urshifu as a problem in this metagame, and will be voting DNB.
This is true of many other mons as well--for example, there's no single check to Dragapult (Specs/Band/DD/HexWisp all have different checks/counters), and other mons like Iron Valiant, Zoroak-hisui (Multiple sets in Scarf, Specs, and HexWisp, and can illusion as other things as a bonus!), and Greninja (Band/Specs/etc) all have their ability to pick and choose their checks/counters.
Getting the iron valiant set wrong can easily set you down a path of no return. If you're playing water, for example, losing Gastrodon to an unexpected Energy Ball when you thought it was choiced on Tbolt can mean you lose to Choiced Tbolt Flutter Mane later. Similar examples can be given for sets like Wood Hammer Mimikyu and Choice Specs/Scarf Cyclizar (before you call choice scarf/specs an unset-- I've used both specs and scarf before, they're really good and cause 50/50s between attacking/shedtail even after the set is revealed). "Guess the set" is not a game solely attributed to Urshifu, and there are countless situations where guessing the set wrong means the loss of an important mon.
On the contrary-- It's possible to check every Urshifu set while dedicating exactly zero slots solely to checking it, even while not playing Fairy. For example, Poison is running Weezing-Galar and/or Sneasler regardless; Fire runs a lot of faster mons that can wisp it, as well as Tauros and Infernape; Ground often runs Great Tusk which kinda bodies Urshifu with scarf CC or defensive Body Press, Fighting checks it with any scarfer and Iron Valiant and other naturally faster mons, Electric often runs Sub Zapdos as a automatic check to 90% of urshifus out there, Ghost runs Sub NP Spectrier and/or Mimikyu, Grass has Scarf Meow and/or Mach Punch Breloom, etc etc.
Note that the team above was made post-home before the DLC release, all the mons/sets are slotted there without regard for Ushifu's place in the metagame. Note how naturally Urshifu is checked: Toxapex scouts Choiced sets due to Regenerator, there are multiple switchins to choiced Wicked blow (Urshifu-rapid and Sammurott), Samurott-hisui outspeeds +2 Urshifu and revenge kills it with Sacred Sword, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike outspeeds adamant varients, and if all else fails Rotom-W outspeeds and burns it. Unsurprisingly, I did not run into any problems with Urshifu during my 80 games of grinding for 2 reqs runs, despite not accounting for it at all during teambuilding.
Fantastic post Arken. I mostly disagree with your interpretation of the replays.
I see this replay as an example of good play allowing you to overcome an otherwise terrible matchup. I don't think playing better, and getting rewarded for good play by a sweep at the end of the game, is a problem that needs to be fixed by bans.
I see this replay as an example of Garry getting punished for not bringing Amoonguss-- If Garry had Amoonguss to switch into great Tusk instead, it would be more difficult to force out G-weezing as much and weakening it down for Urshifu to sweep. Also Garry probably would lose this regardless due to the Gallade in preview LOL
He was simply not prepped for Urshifu. Ghost does have fantastic options for doing so (such as Mimikyu and Sub NP Spectrier), the fact that he chose to run a Sableye instead of these options is his problem. A refusal to prep for something despite having the tools to do so does not make a mon broken.
Overall, I don't see Urshifu as a problem in this metagame, and will be voting DNB.
Ok so let’s start by going through what was said.
Every single mon you mentioned does not have a instant critical hit move that ignores a lot of ways of dealing with it such as screens, Calm mind/iron defense. Etc. as stated earlier having multiple sets to keep you on your feet is not a bad thing when it doesn’t cost you the whole game. Which once again reiterating that urshifu getting the luxury of wicked blow to get insane damage on anything switching in is ridiculous with dark being one of the best types to offensively lock yourself into. Especially those who don’t have forms of recovery in their ability or move pools. Mons can pick and choose their counters every single day that comes with the territory, but where we have to draw the line is that if the looming threat of just one set requires multiple dedicated checks on nearly every single type. (More on this later).
I’m so glad you used a water example because the most threatening set to that particular type is specs. Which toxapex can easily switch in absorb a hit, get the damage range difference and safely pivot to gastro, heal the damage off. Then move on with the match up. Fluttermane also can’t 1 shot toxapex and the same scenario can happen. Water is not a monolith. Also if we’re gonna say getting the iron vailant can cost you the game. It’s not because of vailant itself in relation to the fact that it’s also on the same type as urshifu. Supporting my point that having the team support to deal with it’s said limited checks to a particular set is incredibly unhealthy and constraining on the team builder. Because like I said in my original post you have so many threats you have to consider how do you deal with them all without turning into insane match up fishing. (More on this later in relation to your team).
On to the team you sent. 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO. Toxapex gets chunked hard by wicked blow CB sets. 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike on a critical hit: 138-162 (40.4 - 47.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Urshifu-R can hopefully switch in twice. If there aren’t hazards up :)! 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire on a critical hit: 220-261 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Samurott-Hisui on a critical hit: 165-195 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. 252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 258-304 (75.6 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ooops it doesn’t KO so let’s move on to Rotom, a simple switch into any teammates can deal with Rotom such as the spooky iron vailant on the will o wisp or any special attacker on dark, 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-Wash on a critical hit: 261-307 (108.2 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO.
On to your last point that you made in relation to me, Once again these slots lose to urshifu’s teammates and aren’t reliable checks to it and it’s teammates for example great tusk/sabyele answers snealser and specs greninja/ Urshifu CB answers weezing galar. 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Weezing on a critical hit: 177-208 (53.1 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery.
Fire loses to iron vailant and zamazenta. Ground has great tusk who also loses to all of those Pokémon mentioned before. Fighting is not a very helpful example when it has a great MU into itself and dark. Even then close combat is still taking a chuck out of something on that team. Electric still loses to both types that it’s on due to its teammates and urshifu being able to always threaten out regi. Ghost does not enjoy scarf sets nor does it have a good MU into either type that urshifu is on. Finally grass has meowscarda that folds like a lawn chair to chein pao/ okidogi.
I think this is further establishes my argument that urshifu is absolutely unhealthy and does constraining on the builder to a very unhealthy degree.
Ok so let’s start by going through what was said.
Every single mon you mentioned does not have a instant critical hit move that ignores a lot of ways of dealing with it such as screens, Calm mind/iron defense.
- Ignores screens and sub on all its moves (thanks, infiltrator)
- Outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame except Regieleki
- Can ignore CM/ID boosts by just hitting on the opposite side due to fantastic mixed attacking capabilities
- Can boost Speed with Dragon dance or burn things with Will-o-Wisp
- Has an absurd defensive typing with 6 resistances and 2 immunities
I also mentioned Zoroak-Hisui, who:
- Looks like Staraptor, making you switch to Corviknight as is uses specs Flamethrower (thanks, Nintendo)
- Or looks like Flutter Mane as it comes in against a weakened Toxapex, making you switch to Gastrodon on the specs Tbolt as it uses Grass Knot (thanks, Nintendo)
And Greninja, who
- Gets STAB on every move
- Pivots with STAB uturn
- Gets hazards as well bc why not
- Sits at a fantastic speed tier
Yes, they don't have Wicked Blow, but they all have their own advantages that Urshifu doesn't have. I'm not trying to argue these mons are broken, just Urshifu's own advantages doesn't make it stand out from the others on the list here.
I’m so glad you used a water example because the most threatening set to that particular type is specs. Which toxapex can easily switch in absorb a hit, get the damage range difference and safely pivot to gastro, heal the damage off. Then move on with the match up. Fluttermane also can’t 1 shot toxapex and the same scenario can happen. Water is not a monolith.
The most threatening set to Water is actually Ebelt, due to tbolt + eball unchoiced coverage. Also, if Toxapex is at less than ~75% it doesn't want to come in anymore, which can happen if it's taken damage from say, scouting Flutter mane.
I can also give more examples:
- Scarf Iron valiant can surprise specs Greninja and OHKO it, leaving you down an important mon
- Scarf Cyclizar vs Chien pao t1 usually means a dead chien pao (252 SpA Cyclizar Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chien-Pao: 302-356 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
On to the team you sent. 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO. Toxapex gets chunked hard by wicked blow CB sets. 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike on a critical hit: 138-162 (40.4 - 47.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Urshifu-R can hopefully switch in twice. If there aren’t hazards up :)! 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire on a critical hit: 220-261 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Samurott-Hisui on a critical hit: 165-195 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. 252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 258-304 (75.6 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ooops it doesn’t KO so let’s move on to Rotom, a simple switch into any teammates can deal with Rotom such as the spooky iron vailant on the will o wisp or any special attacker on dark, 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-Wash on a critical hit: 261-307 (108.2 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO.
Paper =/= practice. What is Urshifu coming in on? Quagsire clicks Toxic every time, it's not coming in on Rotom, Slowking is a Chilly Reception bot, Rott is always clicking damage moves, it's not coming in on Rapid Strike, so the only mon it's really capable of coming in on is Toxapex. Toxapex can actually beat Banded Shifu 1v1 by spamming recover (Wicked Blow only has 8 pp), but even ignoring that, Toxapex's poison jab generally does enough for Rott to finish Ushifu off, viz:
8 Atk Toxapex Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 60-72 (17.5 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 258-304 (75.6 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also if this is really such a big priority i can always use sludge bomb toxapex instead to guarentee the rolls, viz:
0 SpA Toxapex Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 88-105 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Essentially, in order for this to be a problem, Urshifu would have get into Slowking on a double switch, or go Shifu after rott/rapid-strike get a kill and click Wicked Blow. Both options generally require some kind of risk, and if the opponent makes the risk and predicts correctly they deserve to be rewarded.
On to your last point that you made in relation to me, Once again these slots lose to urshifu’s teammates and aren’t reliable checks to it and it’s teammates for example great tusk/sabyele answers snealser and specs greninja/ Urshifu CB answers weezing galar. 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Weezing on a critical hit: 177-208 (53.1 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery.
Either you are deliberately misinterpreting me and/or you have never played poison and therefore have no idea what you are talking about. I obviously was referring to Weezing-galar, and the calc looks like this:
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar on a critical hit: 97-114 (29.1 - 34.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
You very clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Fire resists Iron Valiant's main STAB move, moonblast. As for zamazenta, unless it's running Stone edge, it's countered by bulky Volcarona, and loses to Skeleridge regardless. Fire generally has a good matchup into both fighting and dark, due to mons like Cinderace (zen + uturn + hi jump kick), Infernape, and Tauros.
Scarf Great Tusk is a massive threat to Dark and let's not pretend like it's easy to beat. Headlong rush does enough damage to Sableye that it doesn't really want to switch into it repeatedly, especially if it's been knocked off before hand, viz:
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 171-202 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not to mention Fighting also doesn't have a great switchin to Great Tusk either, everything takes massive damage from CC or Headlong Rush.
Fighting is not a very helpful example when it has a great MU into itself and dark. Even then close combat is still taking a chuck out of something on that team. Electric still loses to both types that it’s on due to its teammates and urshifu being able to always threaten out regi. Ghost does not enjoy scarf sets nor does it have a good MU into either type that urshifu is on. Finally grass has meowscarda that folds like a lawn chair to chein pao/ okidogi.
Yes, Electric sucks but that has nothing to do with Urshifu. Ghost has a hard time against Scarf Urshifu, yes, but the same could be said for any scarfed Dark type; urshifu isn't particularly special here. Grass losing to Chien Pao has nothing to do with Urshifu. (#ban chienpao)
- Ignores screens and sub on all its moves (thanks, infiltrator)
- Outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame except Regieleki
- Can ignore CM/ID boosts by just hitting on the opposite side due to fantastic mixed attacking capabilities
- Can boost Speed with Dragon dance or burn things with Will-o-Wisp
- Has an absurd defensive typing with 6 resistances and 2 immunities
I also mentioned Zoroak-Hisui, who:
- Looks like Staraptor, making you switch to Corviknight as is uses specs Flamethrower (thanks, Nintendo)
- Or looks like Flutter Mane as it comes in against a weakened Toxapex, making you switch to Gastrodon on the specs Tbolt as it uses Grass Knot (thanks, Nintendo)
And Greninja, who
- Gets STAB on every move
- Pivots with STAB uturn
- Gets hazards as well bc why not
- Sits at a fantastic speed tier
Yes, they don't have Wicked Blow, but they all have their own advantages that Urshifu doesn't have. I'm not trying to argue these mons are broken, just Urshifu's own advantages doesn't make it stand out from the others on the list here.
The most threatening set to Water is actually Ebelt, due to tbolt + eball unchoiced coverage. Also, if Toxapex is at less than ~75% it doesn't want to come in anymore, which can happen if it's taken damage from say, scouting Flutter mane.
I can also give more examples:
- Scarf Iron valiant can surprise specs Greninja and OHKO it, leaving you down an important mon
- Scarf Cyclizar vs Chien pao t1 usually means a dead chien pao (252 SpA Cyclizar Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chien-Pao: 302-356 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
Paper =/= practice. What is Urshifu coming in on? Quagsire clicks Toxic every time, it's not coming in on Rotom, Slowking is a Chilly Reception bot, Rott is always clicking damage moves, it's not coming in on Rapid Strike, so the only mon it's really capable of coming in on is Toxapex. Toxapex can actually beat Banded Shifu 1v1 by spamming recover (Wicked Blow only has 8 pp), but even ignoring that, Toxapex's poison jab generally does enough for Rott to finish Ushifu off, viz:
8 Atk Toxapex Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 60-72 (17.5 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 258-304 (75.6 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also if this is really such a big priority i can always use sludge bomb toxapex instead to guarentee the rolls, viz:
0 SpA Toxapex Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 88-105 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Essentially, in order for this to be a problem, Urshifu would have get into Slowking on a double switch, or go Shifu after rott/rapid-strike get a kill and click Wicked Blow. Both options generally require some kind of risk, and if the opponent makes the risk and predicts correctly they deserve to be rewarded.
Either you are deliberately misinterpreting me and/or you have never played poison and therefore have no idea what you are talking about. I obviously was referring to Weezing-galar, and the calc looks like this:
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar on a critical hit: 97-114 (29.1 - 34.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
You very clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Fire resists Iron Valiant's main STAB move, moonblast. As for zamazenta, unless it's running Stone edge, it's countered by bulky Volcarona, and loses to Skeleridge regardless. Fire generally has a good matchup into both fighting and dark, due to mons like Cinderace (zen + uturn + hi jump kick), Infernape, and Tauros.
Scarf Great Tusk is a massive threat to Dark and let's not pretend like it's easy to beat. Headlong rush does enough damage to Sableye that it doesn't really want to switch into it repeatedly, especially if it's been knocked off before hand, viz:
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 171-202 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not to mention Fighting also doesn't have a great switchin to Great Tusk either, everything takes massive damage from CC or Headlong Rush.
Yes, Electric sucks but that has nothing to do with Urshifu. Ghost has a hard time against Scarf Urshifu, yes, but the same could be said for any scarfed Dark type; urshifu isn't particularly special here. Grass losing to Chien Pao has nothing to do with Urshifu. (#ban chienpao)
Hey y’all it’s me again just gonna clarify some things real quick.
None of those mons you have mentioned have nearly the offensive presence as urshifu with wicked blow. Yes pult ignores screens and it can hit you from either side. Yes greninja gets stab from every move it hits the first time. Zororak can dress up as anyone and it still doesn’t compare nor dismiss anything I have to say.
Urshifu base 130 attack with an instant critical hit move on top of how easy it is to spam it into quite literally everything with no consequence. It is different from everything you’ve stated. In a monumental way.
Um this argument about water is absolutely ridiculous. Water quite literally has multiple ways of dealing with them offensively and defensively when it comes to fairy in particular. So if we are gonna keep this argument going for fighting urshifu let’s keep it relevant for the type that urshifu is on. It’s expert belt you can still figure out the damage range difference and respond back accordingly. Nothing about iron vailant screams anything similar to urshifu. Who as we used your team for an example does particularly well against it.
I’m not gonna feed into this paper does not equal practice because that’s not relevant.
What needs to understood about this is that on paper it’s punching holes left right and center. It’s not hard to get a free switch going on this team in particular with both teams having access to knock off users making your team more vulnerable to hazards which is bad news for that practice vs paper argument you’re making this your saving grace. In practice people set up hazards and knock them items off and it becomes a matter of time waiting game of urshifu plotting in the back. While you’re worried about spooky valiant, you need to respect that these calcs come in incredibly important of understanding what is possible to happen in the match up and if every single mon of yours is 2 hit ko’d or ohko’d by one mon and it does this same against so many types it’s a problem that we can’t act as if isn’t.
For the poison argument you said weezing and based off everything else you said to that point I thought you legitimately were thinking about regular weezing. 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar on a critical hit: 88-104 (26.3 - 31.1%) -- 26.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock. You know what a coverage mon it easily could run for this? 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar: 168-198 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Like we don’t have to pretend urshifu can’t easily just have iron head for weezing galar. Which makes it tough for it to check later on when it’s wicked blowing through the rest of the team.
Fire can drop like a fly to pressure from close combat, zamazenta bullies everything on that type with stone edge that they certainly run on offensive sets. On top of that skelridge does not do anything in that MU as long as urshifu is there to force it out and great tusk can take nasty chunk of it’s hp.
Scarf great tusk loves mandibuzz + sab cores who eat attacks from it. I’m not pretending it’s easy to beat, it’s just about her hurdle that dark can overcome.
Urshifu doesn’t help it any bit at all, but this is once again neither here or there electric is not gonna be any hill to die on once so ever. Most scafers on dark don’t have a critical hit move that threatens to ohko everything not hiding behind a colbur berry and defensive investment. None of these arguments are convincing and I’m not about to do nit picking.
All of this saying I don’t know what I’m talking about is not clearly the case. I’ve seen and been in the countless scenarios of urshifu always achieving something, always breaking through something, just being a negative impact on building as a whole. We are already strapped for spots in the builder we can let go one of the pythons of the tier.
- Ignores screens and sub on all its moves (thanks, infiltrator)
- Outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame except Regieleki
- Can ignore CM/ID boosts by just hitting on the opposite side due to fantastic mixed attacking capabilities
- Can boost Speed with Dragon dance or burn things with Will-o-Wisp
- Has an absurd defensive typing with 6 resistances and 2 immunities
I also mentioned Zoroak-Hisui, who:
- Looks like Staraptor, making you switch to Corviknight as is uses specs Flamethrower (thanks, Nintendo)
- Or looks like Flutter Mane as it comes in against a weakened Toxapex, making you switch to Gastrodon on the specs Tbolt as it uses Grass Knot (thanks, Nintendo)
And Greninja, who
- Gets STAB on every move
- Pivots with STAB uturn
- Gets hazards as well bc why not
- Sits at a fantastic speed tier
Yes, they don't have Wicked Blow, but they all have their own advantages that Urshifu doesn't have. I'm not trying to argue these mons are broken, just Urshifu's own advantages doesn't make it stand out from the others on the list here.
The most threatening set to Water is actually Ebelt, due to tbolt + eball unchoiced coverage. Also, if Toxapex is at less than ~75% it doesn't want to come in anymore, which can happen if it's taken damage from say, scouting Flutter mane.
I can also give more examples:
- Scarf Iron valiant can surprise specs Greninja and OHKO it, leaving you down an important mon
- Scarf Cyclizar vs Chien pao t1 usually means a dead chien pao (252 SpA Cyclizar Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chien-Pao: 302-356 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
Paper =/= practice. What is Urshifu coming in on? Quagsire clicks Toxic every time, it's not coming in on Rotom, Slowking is a Chilly Reception bot, Rott is always clicking damage moves, it's not coming in on Rapid Strike, so the only mon it's really capable of coming in on is Toxapex. Toxapex can actually beat Banded Shifu 1v1 by spamming recover (Wicked Blow only has 8 pp), but even ignoring that, Toxapex's poison jab generally does enough for Rott to finish Ushifu off, viz:
8 Atk Toxapex Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 60-72 (17.5 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu: 258-304 (75.6 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also if this is really such a big priority i can always use sludge bomb toxapex instead to guarentee the rolls, viz:
0 SpA Toxapex Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 88-105 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Essentially, in order for this to be a problem, Urshifu would have get into Slowking on a double switch, or go Shifu after rott/rapid-strike get a kill and click Wicked Blow. Both options generally require some kind of risk, and if the opponent makes the risk and predicts correctly they deserve to be rewarded.
Either you are deliberately misinterpreting me and/or you have never played poison and therefore have no idea what you are talking about. I obviously was referring to Weezing-galar, and the calc looks like this:
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar on a critical hit: 97-114 (29.1 - 34.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
You very clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Fire resists Iron Valiant's main STAB move, moonblast. As for zamazenta, unless it's running Stone edge, it's countered by bulky Volcarona, and loses to Skeleridge regardless. Fire generally has a good matchup into both fighting and dark, due to mons like Cinderace (zen + uturn + hi jump kick), Infernape, and Tauros.
Scarf Great Tusk is a massive threat to Dark and let's not pretend like it's easy to beat. Headlong rush does enough damage to Sableye that it doesn't really want to switch into it repeatedly, especially if it's been knocked off before hand, viz:
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 171-202 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not to mention Fighting also doesn't have a great switchin to Great Tusk either, everything takes massive damage from CC or Headlong Rush.
Yes, Electric sucks but that has nothing to do with Urshifu. Ghost has a hard time against Scarf Urshifu, yes, but the same could be said for any scarfed Dark type; urshifu isn't particularly special here. Grass losing to Chien Pao has nothing to do with Urshifu. (#ban chienpao)
I think to start, we should keep the conversation focused on Urshifu, and not other Pokémon. The only time other Pokémon should be brought up in this conversation, is to discuss their interaction or relevance when it comes to Urshifu.
Hey y’all it’s me again just gonna clarify some things real quick.
None of those mons you have mentioned have nearly the offensive presence as urshifu with wicked blow. Yes pult ignores screens and it can hit you from either side. Yes greninja gets stab from every move it hits the first time. Zororak can dress up as anyone and it still doesn’t compare nor dismiss anything I have to say.
Urshifu base 130 attack with an instant critical hit move on top of how easy it is to spam it into quite literally everything with no consequence. It is different from everything you’ve stated. In a monumental way.
It’s not hard to get a free switch going on this team in particular with both teams having access to knock off users making your team more vulnerable to hazards which is bad news for that practice vs paper argument you’re making this your saving grace. In practice people set up hazards and knock them items off and it becomes a matter of time waiting game of urshifu plotting in the back.
Against fighting, the main knock user is Great Tusk; neither Toxapex or Slowking should be staying in on Great Tusk regardless. Quagsire losing its boots is basically inconsequential as most fighting teams don't run spikes.
Dark's main spiker is Ting-Lu, who conveniently lets Urshifu-rapid-strike in for free and enjoys facing a 50/50 on what to switch in to avoid losing a mon on the spot. It's safe to say Dark usually isn't getting hazards up for free.
I've personally used the team for 80 games of reqs grinding and I beat every team with Urshifu that I met on ladder (and I met a lot of urshifus on ladder)--it is safe to say I know what the team is weak against more than you do, and Urshifu is not one of those things.
For the poison argument you said weezing and based off everything else you said to that point I thought you legitimately were thinking about regular weezing. 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar on a critical hit: 88-104 (26.3 - 31.1%) -- 26.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock. You know what a coverage mon it easily could run for this? 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar: 168-198 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Like we don’t have to pretend urshifu can’t easily just have iron head for weezing galar. Which makes it tough for it to check later on when it’s wicked blowing through the rest of the team.
Banded Urshifu getting 50% on Weezing-Galar, while bad for poison, isn't the end of the game by any means. Revealing band means it's basically risk-free to go Pex on Shifu to scout the move in the future, and Weezing-Galar can always heal back up with Pain Split, especially early on in the match. Considering that Iron head doesn't really hit anything else of note, I don't think this unhealthy, especially when you give up the utility of Uturn to do so.
Fire can drop like a fly to pressure from close combat, zamazenta bullies everything on that type with stone edge that they certainly run on offensive sets. On top of that skelridge does not do anything in that MU as long as urshifu is there to force it out and great tusk can take nasty chunk of it’s hp.
This argument seems disingenuous to me. Stone edge, while viable, isn't even listed as an option on Zamazenta's monotype analysis on Band and is the 3rd option on Iron Defense (https://www.smogon.com/dex/sv/pokemon/zamazenta/monotype/). In addition, fire often runs immunities/resists (skele, ceruleuge, Talonflame, Moltres) to Close Combat. Skele is more than capable to work in the fighting MU as both Urshifu and Great Tusk do not want to switch into it as they fear will-o-wisp.
Scarf great tusk loves mandibuzz + sab cores who eat attacks from it. I’m not pretending it’s easy to beat, it’s just about her hurdle that dark can overcome.
Most scafers on dark don’t have a critical hit move that threatens to ohko everything not hiding behind a colbur berry and defensive investment. None of these arguments are convincing and I’m not about to do nit picking.
I'd argue ghost gets equally screwed over by Scarf Meowscarada (knock off), Scarf Samurott-hisui (ceaseless edge is a fun and balanced move, not only getting a kill but breaking all of your sashes in the process), and Scarf Roaring Moon (Knock off kills everything, wow). Yes these mons don't hit as hard as Scarf Urshifu but they're at a higher speed tier and against ghost that matters more. Overall I wouldn't say Scarf Ushifu does anything unique against Ghost that it doesn't already have to deal with.
All of this saying I don’t know what I’m talking about is not clearly the case. I’ve seen and been in the countless scenarios of urshifu always achieving something, always breaking through something, just being a negative impact on building as a whole. We are already strapped for spots in the builder we can let go one of the pythons of the tier.
OK so honest question here-- what kind of negative impact does Urshifu have in the builder? I always see "Urshifu is overcentralizing plz help" but the truth is Urshifu is already checked by things people are running anyways. Poison is not going to stop running Weezing-Galar, Toxapex, and/or Sneasler if Urshifu gets banned. Ground is still going to run Great Tusk. Grass will still run Scarf Meowscarada. Electric will continue to run Sub Zapdos. Ghost will continue to run Sub NP spectrier. Ice will continue to run Alola tails. Flying will still run Enamorus. Normal will continue to run Ditto as a revenge killer. Psychic will still run Hatterenee and psyterrain + dgleam Esparatha. Dark will still run Sableye and/or Scarf Meowscarada. The simple truth is that, even without Urshifu, people will run things that check it regardless because those sets are just good in the metagame regardless.
To me, Urshifu's biggest impact is seeing less steel on ladder, and well honestly I think that is a good thing.
What needs to understood about this is that on paper it’s punching holes left right and center. You need to respect that these calcs come in incredibly important of understanding what is possible to happen in the match up and if every single mon of yours is 2 hit ko’d or ohko’d by one mon and it does this same against so many types it’s a problem that we can’t act as if isn’t.
I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree here.
I don't believe pressuring balance cores through sheer power on a mediocre speed tier like Urshifu does is ban-worthy--encouraging offense is not a bad thing! I personally think balance is overplayed in monotype and I welcome a more offensive metagame. In addition, it is not like balance cores cannot beat Urshifu--they absolutely can if played properly; I piloted balance to reqs on the Urshifu-infested ladder and I know I wasn't the only one to do so.
Walking into the dragapult discussion on the shifu thread.
To bring the convo back to Shifu, I absolutely agree that it's a problematic mon, and I feel like my absence as neighborhood forum bully has had an incredibly negligent effect on our community, as evidence from the shite takes I'm seeing that's putting Shifu alongside mons such as Greninja, Pult, whatever.
Not every type faces the same threat from Shifu - Fighting and Fairy for example. I would include Poison too, but as Arken pointed out earlier, some poison builds end up with a super stressed GWeezing in the fighting mu. For poison you're able to run Okidogi as well, but realistically a poison build that doesn't could still face immense pressure in the late game. As far as late game cleaners go, I see Urshifu as far and above the most dangerous pokemon in this role. Comparing it to Chien-Pao for example, which I'm sure many people still see as a potential suspect, the damage difference that Urshifu is able to do makes it far more threatening to defensive cores on many prominent types such as Flying and Water.
For a comparison:
+2 252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 244-288 (61.1 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight on a critical hit: 337-397 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
You could drop HDB on Pao, but doing so gives it a rocks weakness that makes it far less reliable throughout a match. It's important speed tier as well means Jolly is pretty essential.
Even so, just looking at Urshifu's damage it's pretty clear how dangerous it is for balanced cores. Pikachu said Arken's flying v. fighting video was an example of flying misplaying, honestly I hardly consider it that at all. A +2 pokemon being able to OHKO Corviknight with a neutral attack after rocks is pretty unheard of. For reference - Corv has better physical bulk than Toxapex.
Shifu quite literally has an 80% OHKO roll on Pex after rocks with a neutral attack:
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 259-306 (85.1 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
My perspective on Shifu is that it's not a mon that rewards good plays, rather I see it as a mon that is able to force 50/50s that quite literally end the game with whether they Swords Dance or Wicked Blow, and very little progress made if you predict correctly most of the time.
For the most part we've been talking about neutral matchups for Shifu, but bad matchups are completely unwinnable. Shifu vs. Steel for example is a nightmare I'd only ever wish on Azick.
I think fighting is a type that 100% needs a nerf right now, and I think Shifu going will make things a bit more competitive, not to mention open up a couple other types to the meta like Steel.
Having obtained reqs, I will be voting to BAN Urshifu-S from SV Monotype. This is a no-brainer to me; this is a mon that, as the OP and rest of the thread says, is simply too overwhelmingly strong and has too little in the way of reasonable counterplay for the vast majority of types. Urshifu-S can easily set up an SD due to its amazing physical bulk, which lets it among other things survive a Ceruledge CC or a CB Mamo EQ, as well as its natural immunity to any status move from Sableye. From there, it easily shreds apart balance teams on types such as Water, Ground, and Flying.
As FadedCharm indicated, Urshifu-S is especially nightmarish if running an Adamant nature, as suddenly it OHKOs Flutter Mane with Sucker at neutral, Scarf Enam is no longer a consistent answer to it after rocks, it has good odds to 2HKO Leftovers Quagsire, it has an 87.5% chance to OHKO phys def Moltres at +2, and has very high odds to OHKO phys def Pex and Corv at +2 after rocks. Urshifu-S can pretty freely afford to run an Adamant nature too due to its incredible team support; the main reason to run Jolly is Bax, which Fighting naturally deals with extremely easily through Zamazenta and Iron Valiant. If Urshifu-S has any weaknesses, they are its middling speed and 4x Fairy weakness, but these are all patched up by its naturally fast offensive teammates and Sp Def sponges on both types. Furthermore, even Urshifu-S' natural checks, such as Gweezing, Kommo-o, and Great Tusk, are all very vulnerable to being worn down over the course of a game or get destroyed by Urshifu-S' teammates such as Iron Valiant. While I think SD is what pushes Urshifu-S over the edge into brokenness and is by far its best set, this doesn't account for how some of Urshifu-S' checks can't account for every set; Quagsire and Great Tusk are very weak to CB CCs, and Atales and Gweezing can be lured in and removed by CB Iron Head. I think people who say Urshifu-S isn't so bad are ignoring that basically the tier is centralized around it, with basically every serious tour level team having 1 or more Urshifu-S checks, and types such as Steel, Ghost, and Psychic being incredibly rare in serious play in part because they get destroyed by Urshifu-S unless they build specifically to counter it (e.g., Scarf Klefki on Steel) at the cost of their matchups against the rest of the metagame.
These are two Psychic v Fighting replays from Last Chance R3 where Psychic, a type that should naturally beat Fighting, gets easily beaten by Fighting on both occasions. Note that both teams here were using Scream Tail, a mon that is only especially popular currently because it's Psychic's only serious hope of not getting destroyed by Urshifu-S, but still lost because Scream Tail is powerless against Sneasler and AV Iron Hands (although I will acknowledge ToasterBoi420 massively misplayed his in game 1).
This is a good example of a game where even paper checks to Urshifu-S can easily get worn down. In theory here Royal's team matches up pretty well into Urshifu-S, with Lando-I being able to outspeed and threaten an OHKO, Scarf Tusk to take Wicked Blows and pressure with CC, and Quagsire serving as a defensive answer to Jolly SD. However, Zama was able to eliminate Lando-I Turn 1 with a surprise Ice Fang, Great Tusk is worn down by repeated Wicked Blows and is cleaned up by a CC into a Sucker from Urshifu-S, and Sneasler procs Poison Touch on Quagsire, allowing Urshifu-S to take the game with little effort.
Don't want to get deep into the circus of whataboutisms above but I think this response to Faded's very valid points in regards to what makes Urshifu-S different from other threats in the tier about sums up the lack of good anti-ban arguments thus far:
In summary, Urshifu-S is a broken and centralizing threat that aggravates the inherent matchup issues in Monotype. It is is not conducive to skilled play or a balanced metagame and should therefore be removed from the tier.
i got reqs for once so i might as well spill my 2 cents. i am leaning towards no ban but i still have an open mind and the arguments above all have good points scattered among them. i do not think balance cores really suffer from urshifu, water and poison both have the necessary tools to handle it without becoming overly centralizing on them, respectively. balance cores deal with it by just chipping it down and picking it off later in the game by effectively preserving their unaware mons/bulky fairies. i think psychic and ghost are naturally going to struggle against any strong dark type, however there are some cases where they can win. hell, even ice gives urshifu problems bc of alolatales and avalugg. i also feel like the team support argument is not that good because the purpose of a suspect is to evaluate a pokemon on its own. i really don't want to delve into the theorymon hole since there's been a large amount of that already above and anticipate that there will be more before the vote starts so i'll leave that to someone else.
i think all the checks for it that look good on paper are usually good checks in practice too if you are able to execute.
i still think right now the meta is still somewhat unexplored and if urshifu stays there will be a lot of development for it and it's hype will die down. this upcoming team tournament will be very telling for where we are in this meta. remember when we wanted specs zapdos banned for a month in ss? or goltres? we are already finding decent bax answers and i think that same trend will follow for urshifu. ada glasses is settling in to be it's primary set, the others feel just to stiff to work with if the mon was truly broken.
this probably sounds like a bunch of rambling but it's been an enormous amount of time since i last put in the time and effort to get reqs so i figured it would be nice to give my thoughts as a voter. but again i have an open mind and am excited to see what happens either way.
I will give my two cents opinion on this suspect. Unsurprisingly, I'm a pro NO BAN and will likely remain as such.
From what I read here, I think a few people are a bit distorting the reality to meet their own agenda. Pikachu<3 raised some good points, so I will not rediscuss these things. But I would like to comment some statements that are simply untrue, in my opinion.
I could see numerous arguments about the variety of sets Shifu can use to seemingly tear apart the opponent, but let's be fair, there is only one used set and that is the Black Glasses set. Band is niche (<12%) and scarf is almost unseen (4.5%). What teams need to prepare for is the SD set that cumulates 83% of usage with almost 63% for Black Glasses alone. We are here trying to assess the hypothetical brokenness of one specific mon and as such we should focus our reasonings on facts and not on suboptimal sets. Bringing up the diversity of Shifu sets to call for a ban is dishonest. Yes, in theory, Shifu can run poison jab or iron head to kill its counters but aside from tours where you tailor your team to specific opponents, you have no reason to do such a thing nor do you have any reason to run band over SD set.
Replays are also poorly chosen, in my opinion. They do not showcase the brokenness of Shifu but rather unprepared opponents or misplays. In particular, why would this match be a proof of Shifu needing to go?
This is a good example of a game where even paper checks to Urshifu-S can easily get worn down. In theory here Royal's team matches up pretty well into Urshifu-S, with Lando-I being able to outspeed and threaten an OHKO, Scarf Tusk to take Wicked Blows and pressure with CC, and Quagsire serving as a defensive answer to Jolly SD. However, Zama was able to eliminate Lando-I Turn 1 with a surprise Ice Fang, Great Tusk is worn down by repeated Wicked Blows and is cleaned up by a CC into a Sucker from Urshifu-S, and Sneasler procs Poison Touch on Quagsire, allowing Urshifu-S to take the game with little effort.
This replay is at best an evidence that Zamazenta or Sneasler should be suspected but not Urshifu. What does Shifu accomplishy that would not the other two's? From what I could infer, Zama is likely band and runs Ice fang to counter ground. Shifu was not needed to win, Zama won by simply clicking CC as soon as Lando was down.
I do agree that Shifu can be overwhelming for a few types, namely steel and rock. But as others mentioned, solutions exist to deal with him and most of the time, players already use them. I think people simply needs to understand what Shifu does then play accordingly. Unless your plan is to make Shifu shines and him alone, the bear will rarely be decisive, because you often have other mon's that will take the lead. For instance, in Fighting, I find Sneasler/Zamazenta/Hands much more impactful than Shifu. Shifu does greatness against types that Fighting and Dark have natural advantage against, except for psychic. Take poison that was talked a bit, is Shifu that makes Fighting win? No, it is Gallade or Tusk.
There are types against which Shifu is more impactful such as Fire or Bug, but it does not make by any means these types powerless. Skeledirge is a massive threat to fighting teams, Bulkyrona can easily tip the scale as well. Unlike other mons that are banned, Shifu does not break the tier by existing, it rewards planning.
i do not think balance cores really suffer from urshifu, water and poison both have the necessary tools to handle it without becoming overly centralizing on them, respectively. balance cores deal with it by just chipping it down and picking it off later in the game by effectively preserving their unaware mons/bulky fairies.
Poison definitely has the tools to deal with Urshifu-S comfortably, but I disagree that Water does. In terms of actual switch-ins to Urshifu-S on Water, you literally just have Dondozo and Azumarill (Dozo kinda loses to CB btw; forced to Rest and 3HKOed). It is possible to out-offense Urshifu-S on Water, but this requires in my opinion unreasonably good positioning due to how deadly +2 Adamant Sucker is, and relying on revenge killing to check mons is inherently unsustainable. Water struggles enough for teamslots as is, do you really want a metagame where every Water team is pigeonholed into using Dondozo, Azumarill, Scarf Urshifu-R, or Scarf Rotom-W just to not lose to this thing?
I think Flying is another example of a balance type that has a rough time against Urshifu-S as well; it can SD on the Corv switch-in to massively threaten it, breaks through Gliscor Protect, Scarf Enam becomes unsafe if the opponent ever gets rocks up, and basically everything else on the type folds to +2 Sucker. It is admittedly hard for Urshifu-S to SD in this MU, but it can still be very deadly even without a boost.
The difference between Urshifu-S and other strong Dark-types is that Urshifu-S has a Sucker Punch that can OHKO Flutter Mane at neutral, and, unlike Kingambit, hardly fears Ceruledge or Skeledirge. Ghost is railroaded into using either Sub Spectrier, Sub Dragapult, or Mimikyu if it wants to answer it; these aren't bad options by any means, but they shouldn't be mandatory in teambuilding. Psychic relies on a pretty sub-par mon in Scream Tail to have a shot at winning a matchup it should naturally excel in, and as the replays I posted show, still has an incredibly difficult time winning.
Pokemon isn't played in a vacuum of 1v1s and team support is crucial in evaluating a mon's brokenness imo. My point in bringing up team support wasn't to say that Urshifu-S is broken because of its teammates, it was to say Urshifu-S is broken in of itself and its excellent teammates easily patch up any weaknesses it has.
i still think right now the meta is still somewhat unexplored and if urshifu stays there will be a lot of development for it and it's hype will die down.
This isn't an argument; saying Urshifu-S checks may be found in the future does nothing to refute its brokenness in the current metagame. I also fail to see what innovations will be found as the list of even paper checks to Urshifu-S is very small, and such checks will probably avoid compromises against other threats due to the pileup of broken offensive threats this meta has devolved into.
I could see numerous arguments about the variety of sets Shifu can use to seemingly tear apart the opponent, but let's be fair, there is only one used set and that is the Black Glasses set. Band is niche (<12%) and scarf is almost unseen (4.5%). What teams need to prepare for is the SD set that cumulates 83% of usage with almost 63% for Black Glasses alone. We are here trying to assess the hypothetical brokenness of one specific mon and as such we should focus our reasonings on facts and not on suboptimal sets. Bringing up the diversity of Shifu sets to call for a ban is dishonest. Yes, in theory, Shifu can run poison jab or iron head to kill its counters but aside from tours where you tailor your team to specific opponents, you have no reason to do such a thing nor do you have any reason to run band over SD set.
Saying that "bringing up the diversity of Shifu sets is dishonest" is inflammatory hyperbole. I don't get paid if Urshifu-S gets banned, I just want to see the best and most skillful metagame possible. Please be more respectful. This being said, by your own stats Band is not uncommon enough to the point where you can just ignore it in teambuilding, and is important to raise because certain Urshifu-S checks can deal with SD but not with Band. There are therefore clear reasons to use Band > SD because of this. Further note that these stats are just for Fighting and ignore Dark.
This replay is at best an evidence that Zamazenta or Sneasler should be suspected but not Urshifu. What does Shifu accomplishy that would not the other two's? From what I could infer, Zama is likely band and runs Ice fang to counter ground. Shifu was not needed to win, Zama won by simply clicking CC as soon as Lando was down.
As can be seen in the replay, Zama couldn't click CC into Clodsire, and couldn't Ice Fang through Treads or Quagsire. Scarf Tusk also wins 1v1 vs Band Zama. I will say Royal's team was not the best prepped to deal with Fighting, but Urshifu-S here was the only threat on that Fighting team that could clean up Royal's whole team comfortably given its strong dual STABs and access to priority. The Sneasler thing I brought up just to illustrate how good Urshifu-S' team support is, as one lucky Poison Touch proc was all it took here to render Quag useless againt Urshifu-S. I wouldn't fixate on this, because if Urshifu-S was Adamant it would have won the 1v1 anyway. Again, of importance here was how Urshifu-S singlehandedly wore down and removed Scarf Tusk over the course of the game.
252+ Atk Black Glasses Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge on a critical hit: 350-414 (84.9 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
If Volcarona is coming in against Urshifu-S, it has to either pray for a Flame Body burn or run Will-O-Wisp, which involves sacrificing crucial coverage.
I'm still trying to obtain requirements, but those who know me know that I'm voting no ban if I obtain them. Pikachu<3 has already brought up some good discussion points, but the fact remains that this suspect would have been better off if we did it directly after MWP. The pro-ban side has brought few empirics into the discussion besides a few ladder replays that the anti-ban side has already analyzed, and there haven't been many notable Seeded Tour or Last Chance replays to sway the burden of proof in the ban side's favor.
These are two Psychic v Fighting replays from Last Chance R3 where Psychic, a type that should naturally beat Fighting, gets easily beaten by Fighting on both occasions. Note that both teams here were using Scream Tail, a mon that is only especially popular currently because it's Psychic's only serious hope of not getting destroyed by Urshifu-S, but still lost because Scream Tail is powerless against Sneasler and AV Iron Hands (although I will acknowledge ToasterBoi420 massively misplayed his in game 1).
We can agree that Toaster's Game 1 play was terrible (giving up Psychic's main Urshifu answer to Sneasler immediately is not a good look), and I'd like to talk about replay 2 a bit more in-depth. Firstly, however, I'd like to address these statements.
Note that both teams here were using Scream Tail, a mon that is only especially popular currently because it's Psychic's only serious hope of not getting destroyed by Urshifu-S...
Scream Tail is not only popular because it's Psychic's only serious hope of not getting destroyed by Urshifu; after all, Choice Scarf Indeedee shuts down Urshifu's Sucker Punch and poses a massive threat to Urshifu thanks to Dazzling Gleam. Scream Tail is popular because it provides Wish support and dual screens to facilitate its teammates. In fact, according to the usage stats, Scream Tail was Espathra's third most common teammate on Psychic, sitting at a 44.654% pairing rate. Indeedee was paired with Scream Tail roughly 55.475% of the time. And most of all, Scream Tail's Fairy move, the moves that you purport should be on every set to counter Urshifu-S, barely register on half of all Scream Tail sets. It most commonly used Wish + Protect sets and a slightly more niche dual screens + Light Clay set. This argument that Psychic is shoeholed into Scream Tail just to counter Urshifu-S is patently false.
Now, onto analyzing replay 2. Firstly, I have no clue what this team composition is - at the end of the day, Indeedee- and Espathra-less Psychic will always be unviable. But anyways, Turn 1 sees Scream Tail being Tricked a Choice Scarf. Not the end of the world, but still annoying for JeoZ. On turn 9, Urshifu gets in on Scream Tail through Iron Hands's Volt Switch, and OHKOs Jirachi after predicting JeoZ's switch. Scream Tail comes back in, forcing Urshifu out. On turn 14, Urshifu comes in again after Trichotomy sacrifices his paralyzed Iron Valiant to Hoopa-U. The now-crippled Scream Tail can no longer take a hit after switching in on Wicked Blow, unfortunately. Turn 18: Urshifu comes in, again off of an Iron Hands Volt Switch. After Jeo sacrifices Galarian Slowbro and tries to revenge KO it with Gallade, Trichotomy sacrifices his Iron Hands for a Hawlucha switch-in, and from there the game descended quickly for JeoZ into a loss. What does this replay illustrate about Urshifu-S? It shows...nothing, besides that it needs careful positioning to switch in and for its teammates to cripple its counters so that it can win.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-1965981996-6oef6xcwu1ohf6g530ahq4uj2a00ky0pw
This is a good example of a game where even paper checks to Urshifu-S can easily get worn down. In theory here Royal's team matches up pretty well into Urshifu-S, with Lando-I being able to outspeed and threaten an OHKO, Scarf Tusk to take Wicked Blows and pressure with CC, and Quagsire serving as a defensive answer to Jolly SD. However, Zama was able to eliminate Lando-I Turn 1 with a surprise Ice Fang, Great Tusk is worn down by repeated Wicked Blows and is cleaned up by a CC into a Sucker from Urshifu-S, and Sneasler procs Poison Touch on Quagsire, allowing Urshifu-S to take the game with little effort.
Alright, let's see what happened here. As I'll concede, there are temporary checks to Urshifu-S that can be "easily worn down", yes, like Choice Scarf Great Tusk. But the thing is: Zamazenta normally doesn't break through Lando-I, Leafium Z just got rewarded for running an unexpected set. And what you just described is a very common motif in games: wearing down threats so that something can sweep late-game. It's like wearing down an Iron Treads and Clodsire so that your Choice Specs Iron Valiant can spam Moonblast and win late-game. Additionally, Showl already addressed this replay, so I won't be going much further. Your response
As can be seen in the replay, Zama couldn't click CC into Clodsire, and couldn't Ice Fang through Treads or Quagsire. Scarf Tusk also wins 1v1 vs Band Zama. I will say Royal's team was not the best prepped to deal with Fighting, but Urshifu-S here was the only threat on that Fighting team that could clean up Royal's whole team comfortably given its strong dual STABs and access to priority. The Sneasler thing I brought up just to illustrate how good Urshifu-S' team support is, as one lucky Poison Touch proc was all it took here to render Quag useless againt Urshifu-S. I wouldn't fixate on this, because if Urshifu-S was Adamant it would have won the 1v1 anyway. Again, of importance here was how Urshifu-S singlehandedly wore down and removed Scarf Tusk over the course of the game.
doesn't prove much either. Chien-Pao can do the exact same thing on Dark, clean up whole teams with its strong dual STAB combination and access to not one, but two forms of priority in Ice Shard and Crunch, and is faster, meaning that it can't reliably be picked off with Kommo-o's Vacuum Wave. Ursaluna-Bloodmoon can do the exact same thing with Calm Mind, while having much better bulk. Swords Dance Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, Urshifu-S's somewhat forgotten cousin, can do the exact same thing except without having to worry about a quadruple Fairy or Fighting weakness and being able to ignore Focus Sashes thanks to Surging Strikes. Azumarill can do the exact same thing, while having Screens and hazard support on Fairy. My point is that your argument that Urshifu having access to strong dual STABs and good team support makes it banworthy is a non-unique argument, shared by many other metagame threats.
Saying that "bringing up the diversity of Shifu sets is dishonest" is inflammatory hyperbole. I don't get paid if Urshifu-S gets banned, I just want to see the best and most skillful metagame possible. Please be more respectful. This being said, by your own stats Band is not uncommon enough to the point where you can just ignore it in teambuilding, and is important to raise because certain Urshifu-S checks can deal with SD but not with Band. There are therefore clear reasons to use Band > SD because of this. Further note that these stats are just for Fighting and ignore Dark.
I'll concede that Showl's point was hyperbolic, but pushing this argument of "Urshifu uses different sets!" when it only ever really runs SD is disingenuous at best and downright false at worst. Sure, CB sees occasional usage, but it's not that much and trying to justify Urshifu's ban based solely on it won't work. Also, here's your Dark statistic proving that CB doesn't get used often, even in the 1760s.
This is literally a calculation showing that Urshifu has to get extremely lucky not to be burned by Skeledirge and crippled for the rest of the game, as well as must be Adamant natured (and as such rely on Sucker Punch to beat Ghost teams, leaving it wide open to be taken advantage of by SubWisp Spectrier, Mimikyu, or even the new Substitute Flutter Mane). This proves absolutely nothing for the pro-ban side.
Remember when everyone was clamoring for a Flutter Mane ban at the start of the generation, and then we all realized it wasn't broken and kept it in the metagame? Paper is not practice, and the pro-ban side hasn't provided enough practical evidence beyond a few replays and calculations to prove that Urshifu is truly deserving of the ban hammer.
Scream Tail is not only popular because it's Psychic's only serious hope of not getting destroyed by Urshifu; after all, Choice Scarf Indeedee shuts down Urshifu's Sucker Punch and poses a massive threat to Urshifu thanks to Dazzling Gleam. Scream Tail is popular because it provides Wish support and dual screens to facilitate its teammates.
Indeedee is simply not good which is reflected in its D rank placement on Psychic in the current VR, if you're bringing that just to not lose to Urshifu-S, it's proof that Urshifu-S is broken imo. I acknowledge Scream Tail does other stuff besides just beating Urshifu-S, but it remains salient that this is a mon who only really became close to mandatory on Psychic teams because of Urshifu-S.
And most of all, Scream Tail's Fairy move, the moves that you purport should be on every set to counter Urshifu-S, barely register on half of all Scream Tail sets. It most commonly used Wish + Protect sets and a slightly more niche dual screens + Light Clay set. This argument that Psychic is shoeholed into Scream Tail just to counter Urshifu-S is patently false.
Not really sure what usage stats you're looking at here but it should really go without saying that usage stats don't necessarily correspond to what is actually good, I personally don't think it's at all a good idea to drop an attack move on Scream Tail considering that makes it completely passive and vulnerable to the mons it's supposed to check. In any event you haven't actually suggested a way as to how Psychic can win v Urshifu-S without Scream Tail or a D rank mon, something like Slowbro for instance which is broadly good against the rest of the metagame and other Dark types can't switch in and has to basically pray to burn it to win.
Now, onto analyzing replay 2. Firstly, I have no clue what this team composition is - at the end of the day, Indeedee- and Espathra-less Psychic will always be unviable.
Again Indeedee is a D rank mon with tons of flaws who is hardly a staple on Psychic teams. Espathra is obviously good but you can definitely build Psychic without it. Espathra wouldn't have helped much in this MU anyway. I don't know how you can reasonably claim Psychic structures without these Pokemon will "always be unviable".
But anyways, Turn 1 sees Scream Tail being Tricked a Choice Scarf. Not the end of the world, but still annoying for JeoZ. On turn 9, Urshifu gets in on Scream Tail through Iron Hands's Volt Switch, and OHKOs Jirachi after predicting JeoZ's switch. Scream Tail comes back in, forcing Urshifu out. On turn 14, Urshifu comes in again after Trichotomy sacrifices his paralyzed Iron Valiant to Hoopa-U. The now-crippled Scream Tail can no longer take a hit after switching in on Wicked Blow, unfortunately. Turn 18: Urshifu comes in, again off of an Iron Hands Volt Switch. After Jeo sacrifices Galarian Slowbro and tries to revenge KO it with Gallade, Trichotomy sacrifices his Iron Hands for a Hawlucha switch-in, and from there the game descended quickly for JeoZ into a loss. What does this replay illustrate about Urshifu-S? It shows...nothing, besides that it needs careful positioning to switch in and for its teammates to cripple its counters so that it can win.
idk how you can look at that replay and seriously come to the come to the conclusion that this replay doesn't show its obvious strengths. At preview Urshifu-S is clearly deadly to this entire Psychic team, and ultimately Scream Tail getting Tricked a Scarf didn't prove to be especially consequential, because it was irrelevant to its inability to answer Urshifu-S despite it being run with phys def investment in order to beat it. Urshifu-S definitely doesn't need "careful positioning", it basically got a free KO every time it switched in here. This isn't even an argument, this is just you saying what happens in the replay and then saying you got nothing from it.
Chien-Pao can do the exact same thing on Dark, clean up whole teams with its strong dual STAB combination and access to not one, but two forms of priority in Ice Shard and Crunch, and is faster, meaning that it can't reliably be picked off with Kommo-o's Vacuum Wave. Ursaluna-Bloodmoon can do the exact same thing with Calm Mind, while having much better bulk. Swords Dance Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, Urshifu-S's somewhat forgotten cousin, can do the exact same thing except without having to worry about a quadruple Fairy or Fighting weakness and being able to ignore Focus Sashes thanks to Surging Strikes. Azumarill can do the exact same thing, while having Screens and hazard support on Fairy. My point is that your argument that Urshifu having access to strong dual STABs and good team support makes it banworthy is a non-unique argument, shared by many other metagame threats.
If you're gonna make sweeping reductionist statements like this and completely ignore what makes Urshifu-S obviously different from all these other threats then idk what the point of this discussion even is. To just make a comparison to Urshifu-R for instance, Urshifu-S has an immunity to one of its weaknesses, is immune to Prankster Sableye, doesn't need to run Punching Glove to not lose to Rocky Helmet, has a far stronger priority move, and has a STAB combo with far less resistances and defensive answers in the current metagame. If you're trying to say all these mons are broken, that doesn't mean Urshifu-S shouldn't be banned because there's other broken stuff in the tier.
I'll concede that Showl's point was hyperbolic, but pushing this argument of "Urshifu uses different sets!" when it only ever really runs SD is disingenuous at best and downright false at worst. Sure, CB sees occasional usage, but it's not that much and trying to justify Urshifu's ban based solely on it won't work. Also, here's your Dark statistic proving that CB doesn't get used often, even in the 1760s.
Enough with the hyperbole already jfc, you don't have to paint me as a liar to make your point
Objectively (by your own stats!) Urshifu-S does not "only ever really run SD". Even if it only ever ran SD it would still be broken regardless, I brought up other sets because it means Urshifu-S counters are not set in stone and even if you prep for it, it still has the potential to massively catch you off guard.
This is literally a calculation showing that Urshifu has to get extremely lucky not to be burned by Skeledirge and crippled for the rest of the game, as well as must be Adamant natured (and as such rely on Sucker Punch to beat Ghost teams, leaving it wide open to be taken advantage of by SubWisp Spectrier, Mimikyu, or even the new Substitute Flutter Mane). This proves absolutely nothing for the pro-ban side.
1) Skeledirge can never switch into Urshifu-S to beat it
2) A roll to OHKO means Skeledirge will never be secure in beating it and also means Skeledirge can never receive any chip throughout a game
3) Needing to sack a mon from full HP to status Urshifu-S (not even KO it) just to give your team a chance to beat it speaks for itself really
4) On Fire Skeledirge is also an important answer to mons such as Zamazenta which can put you in a no-win situation v Fighting
Remember when everyone was clamoring for a Flutter Mane ban at the start of the generation, and then we all realized it wasn't broken and kept it in the metagame?
Just speaking for myself not council as whole..
I read through bits and pieces of this thread but honestly trying to filter through these 5 page dissertations responding to 20 different parts of someone's post makes me go entirely braindead. While discussion can be good honestly I think we could all benefit from just sharing our own opinion's instead of trying to rip each other apart in an effort to put out as many posts as possible. I also do NOT have replays so PLEASE lets not bring that up because for one I have never consciously been thinking to save them and for two I think posting replays is good about 10% of the time and the other 90% leads to people picking apart games to an unessecary extent in an attempt to render the replay invalid.
I was genuinely suprised to see that a decent majority of the posts in here are leaning toward do not ban and I truly don't understand why. I'm not trying to take jabs at anyone individually but genuinely if you think this mon is healthy balanced competitive you either have not played enough SV monotype or need to see a physician.
I was part of the minority in that I had voted to not unban Urshifu after the DLC drops and really never understood any of the arguements that rallied for it to come back. Seemed like the whole thought process was "well its an offensive meta and shifu has shitty speed so why not give it a try." The whole speed arguement has always been utterly irrelevant to me because the Pokemon has a strong ass priority move that can ohko basically any faster mon in this tier that isn't resisting sucker punch(and some that do such as the enamarous calc..). I've played a lot of Fighting since DLC dropped, used it for a good bit of my reqs, and been farmed by Urshifu's more than once.
People have already posted a lot of the relevant calcs concerning the absurdity of a +2 Wicked Blow into defensive walls such as Toxapex, Moltres, and Corviknight so I won't post more but they all serve to the point that Urshifu is fast enough to beat defensive walls, and strong enough to beat faster Pokemon with Sucker Punch. Urshifu in general invalidates the presence of balance teams in the tier. Archetypes like this on types such as Ground, Water, Flying, Steel are pretty much fodder to the thing. Ground to a lesser extent but it does what it needs to to ensure Zama is winning that endgame.
And one important thing to note that I don't think is talked about enough is just how insanely easy it is to position this mon. The support it gets on the types it is on is incredible and coupled with its solid enough bulk(one calc that comes to mind is it chewing 2 CB Espeeds from ada Dnite. You could just outrage of course, sure, but I was in the situation where if I outraged the valiant in the back came in and won the game) it finds a myriad of opportunities to get off a Swords Dance without a ton of risk.
Regardless, invalidating an entire archetype that can be played on many of the top types is enough for me to find this Pokemon unhealthy. Outside of balance teams Urshifu also can definitely farm more offensive teams such as Dragon, Ghost, or Psychic. Put very simply the power of a +2 Black Glasses Sucker Punch is incredibly overwhelming in this tier when coupled with Wicked Blow to take care of anything slower. To anyone who is leaning toward DNB I ask you to take some time to make a Fighting team and learn to play it as well as you possibly can. I can pretty much guarantee that if you do this you will be bailed from countless games by this crazy bear.
Saying that "bringing up the diversity of Shifu sets is dishonest" is inflammatory hyperbole. I don't get paid if Urshifu-S gets banned, I just want to see the best and most skillful metagame possible. Please be more respectful.
My apologies if you perceived it as offensive, it was not my intention. I just wanted to prevent people from drawing erroneous conclusions. Anyway, more on this will follow.
This being said, by your own stats Band is not uncommon enough to the point where you can just ignore it in teambuilding, and is important to raise because certain Urshifu-S checks can deal with SD but not with Band. There are therefore clear reasons to use Band > SD because of this. Further note that these stats are just for Fighting and ignore Dark.
September usage stats, while not complete for Urshifu, still showed a certain trend. A trend that has confirmed with October usage stats. Please find the fresh usage stats for the bear.
And for the sake of a healthy comparison, here are also the September stats.
Now, let us have a deeper look into them.
First, as September overall usage stat shows, Darkshifu still reached the 6th spot, despite being released for only the second half of the month and still get a respectable 53% usage. With October full stats, however, we can better measure how ubiquitous Darkshifu is in Fighting. Dark detailed stats will follow, worry not.
With a whole month to express his numerous talents, Darkshifu unsurprisingly rose in usage, reaching 75%. I am still pretty sure you all noticed something. Yes, despite its mightiness and its apparent brokenness, it is not as much played as Valiant, Zamazenta or Tusk, reaching only the 4th spot. How shameful for the Bear! It still vastly overshadows his twin brother nonetheless. We can also observe that by combining both usage, we can see that 95% of Fighting teams use either Bear, enough to make them a runner-up for stealing Valiant spot. But enough digressing, we are discussing the one who succombed to the Dark Side of the Force, not the water splasher one.
Quoting myself, I stated yesterday that Choiced sets were marginally used with Band being a niche option and scarf being kind-of an abnormality detected too late.
I could see numerous arguments about the variety of sets Shifu can use to seemingly tear apart the opponent, but let's be fair, there is only one used set and that is the Black Glasses set. Band is niche (<12%) and scarf is almost unseen (4.5%). What teams need to prepare for is the SD set that cumulates 83% of usage with almost 63% for Black Glasses alone.
Well, now with October stats out, I can confidently say that Choiced sets are both now kind-of unseen fist in today's Fighting teams. Accounting for only 6.5% of Darkshifu's in Fighting, I doubt anyone can even call them "niche" options, at least in today's metagame. On the other hand, SD set became even more prevalent, now representing 91.6% of global usage. Expecting something else than SD Darkshifu when facing Fighting would be incoherent.
However, I do agree that both scarf and band sets have some merits as you mentioned it, TheRealBigC. But it seems they might prove more useful in specific team settings used in Tours for focusing certain MU's. As such, I do not think it is interesting in addressing these sets as they are rarely, if ever, encountered and hence cannot lead to a constructive assessment of Darkshifu banworthiness.
As you also pointed out the potential lack of impartiality by focusing my points exclusively on Fighting type, I will address Dark usage as well.
What is blatant when having a look at Dark usages is how unimpressive Darkshifu is. Reaching eventually 33% of global usage in October (19% in September), it is no hyperbol to say that Darkshifu is largely disregarded in Dark compared to his brightness in Fighting. His Dark usages are not even enough to grant him a spot in the Holy top 6, falling behind Meowscarada.
Either way, let us still pretend it is a must-have in Dark and have a deeper look into his moveset usage. Unlike in Fighting, there is not a clear trend for Darkshifu set in Dark. SD set dropped from 60% to 56% while scarf and band remained constant with around 16% and 10% of global usage. Despite usages I would qualify of messier, most likely due to his poor global usage among the type leading to no clear purpose of using him, we can still observe a dominance of SD sets, though it is less ubiquitous than in Fighting by quite a significant margin.
Here is the paradox of Dark type this gen, too many great mons for only 6 spots which inevitably leads some mon's to be discriminated in profit of others. Darkshifu is here on the loser side. That is why the discussion is naturally focused on Fighting that truly appreciates the Bear at his right value.
As can be seen in the replay, Zama couldn't click CC into Clodsire, and couldn't Ice Fang through Treads or Quagsire. Scarf Tusk also wins 1v1 vs Band Zama. I will say Royal's team was not the best prepped to deal with Fighting, but Urshifu-S here was the only threat on that Fighting team that could clean up Royal's whole team comfortably given its strong dual STABs and access to priority. The Sneasler thing I brought up just to illustrate how good Urshifu-S' team support is, as one lucky Poison Touch proc was all it took here to render Quag useless againt Urshifu-S. I wouldn't fixate on this, because if Urshifu-S was Adamant it would have won the 1v1 anyway. Again, of importance here was how Urshifu-S singlehandedly wore down and removed Scarf Tusk over the course of the game.
It seems we did not watch the same match. Leafium Z decided to give more screentime to Darkshifu, because he's undeniably a kind man, but Band Zama was as deadlier if not more than shifu. Here is a calc on Clodsire.
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clodsire: 210-247 (45.2 - 53.2%)
Despite being resisted, Clodsire could barely survive 2 CC's from full. And of course, any chip leads to a secured 2HKO. To rephrase myself, there was not one single way to win this match.Leafium chose Shifu's path but Zama's path was fine too. What displays Shifu here is unimpressive as other fighting mon's could achieve the same result or had a bigger impact on the match (Zama/Sneasler).
1) Skeledirge can never switch into Urshifu-S to beat it
2) A roll to OHKO means Skeledirge will never be secure in beating it and also means Skeledirge can never receive any chip throughout a game
3) Needing to sack a mon from full HP to status Urshifu-S (not even KO it) just to give your team a chance to beat it speaks for itself really
4) On Fire Skeledirge is also an important answer to mons such as Zamazenta which can put you in a no-win situation v Fighting
I will address this point as it mainly refers to my original post.
To begin with, I would like to reverse the causality. You take the stance that Darkshifu is on the field ready to assert his dominance and prove your point, but what about the reverse position? What about Darkshifu trying to come on the field? I do not think you would risk a burn. Leaving you no choice but to get him on the field by sacking a mon or trying slow pivoting with Hands for instance. And this is no easy thing against fire when a handful of your opponent team is able to burn your physical mon's or can easily benefit from a free turn of boost. By the way, to take your first point for what it is, can you seriously name a mon able to switch on a super effective STAB move from a potent attacker without being 2HKO'ed? Except chansey/blissey and in rare instances dondozo, there is none. Discarding mimikyu-likes.
For your 2nd point, reverse is true as well. You will never take the risk of Darkshifu being incapacitated for the rest of the match, except if Skeledirge is the last standing mon. However, it is less risky for the fire player than for the fighting player as Moltres is a suitable back up for Skeledirge.
3rd point, it is not your only way of dealing with Shifu. Tauros-Fire is great at that, Cinderace does wonder as well thanks to libero and induces 50/50's that fighting player does not want to risk with Shifu. Ogerpon is deadly as well. Moltres does the job well too. Volcarona can also prevent Shifu from coming in and induces negative 50/50's for Fighting, once again. What is true however is that they cannot freely come on him, but it is not a prerogative of Darkshifu. By the way, remember we are talking in this case of a Darkshifu Adamant Black Glasses which is not the more common. Adamant have many merits over Jolly, but you need to take into consideration the new foes that Darkshifu cannot deal with such as Mimikyu, and other mon's in the 298-320 speed range. It is a tradeoff sometimes beneficial but not always and that is still niche in today's metagame.
4th point, Skeledirge is indeed a huge pain for Fighting as a whole, so you can prefer using moltres for taking care of shifu and Skeledirge for others. My point was to show that Darkshifu does not make Fighting-Fire MU bad for Fire necessarily. If stars are aligned, it will, but you cannot consistently count on him to make the difference.
I read through bits and pieces of this thread but honestly trying to filter through these 5 page dissertations responding to 20 different parts of someone's post makes me go entirely braindead. While discussion can be good honestly I think we could all benefit from just sharing our own opinion's instead of trying to rip each other apart in an effort to put out as many posts as possible.
I view discussions as a more efficient way to reflect on a topic than isolated opinions. You cannot see the whole picture by yourself, most of the time, so it is great to discuss your views with others.
As I care for your health, I will not make any more quote in this post and will simply discuss a few of your points.
I am genuinely surprised you could be farmed by Darkshifu if you lead Fighting. Care to explain how? To my knowledge, Fighting is probably the type against which Darkshifu is the least concerning, to not say anecdotic. Every mon resist dark moves and most of your team outspeeds it as well on top of OHKO'ing it effortlessly.
This metagame is more offensive than previous ones, it is undeniable which makes inevitably balance teams less performing. Darkshifu contributes to some extent to this state of the metagame, but in my opinion, it is more the result of the nerf of walls and the indecent amount of sweepers released this gen. Pao did not contribute to build a balanced metagame either, yet I cannot remember him being suspected once. Darkshifu is different than Pao, bulkier but slower. Still, they are both formidable wallbreakers in their own rights. I do not consider Darkshifu as easy-to-place as you suggest it. Between t-spikes that requires switching on Sneasler first, his three annoying weaknesses and his irredeemable spdef, you find yourself having either to risk a poisoning/big chip or to make slow pivoting with hands which can considerably weaken your defensive capabilities in the latter game. Most special moves will 2HKO Darkshifu which makes it hard to switch into something. Physical moves are your best chance but you might not have such an easy time as besides priorities, a lot of them will still 2HKO you.
I exclusively used Fighting for the req's and while Darkshifu proved to be useful more than once, his team mates were more decisive than Darkshifu for the most part, except when facing Steel or Ghost, although band Zama can carry both MU's pretty well too.
I Dont play Mono that much, but I Never experienced any broken urshifu. For me it's a mon that can get like 2 ko at best, and Just another stuff that dies to moonblast.
Comparing it to Chien-Pao for example, which I'm sure many people still see as a potential suspect, the damage difference that Urshifu is able to do makes it far more threatening to defensive cores on many prominent types such as Flying and Water.
For a comparison:
+2 252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 244-288 (61.1 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight on a critical hit: 337-397 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
You could drop HDB on Pao, but doing so gives it a rocks weakness that makes it far less reliable throughout a match. It's important speed tier as well means Jolly is pretty essential.
This comparison doesn't make any sense, and it makes it look like you're not arguing in good faith. No one would be calling for a Pao suspect if it had base 97 speed. It is not Pao's raw damage output alone that makes it so dangerous.
Even so, just looking at Urshifu's damage it's pretty clear how dangerous it is for balanced cores. Pikachu said Arken's flying v. fighting video was an example of flying misplaying, honestly I hardly consider it that at all. A +2 pokemon being able to OHKO Corviknight with a neutral attack after rocks is pretty unheard of. For reference - Corv has better physical bulk than Toxapex.
Shifu quite literally has an 80% OHKO roll on Pex after rocks with a neutral attack:
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 259-306 (85.1 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Don't want to get deep into the circus of whataboutisms above but I think this response to Faded's very valid points in regards to what makes Urshifu-S different from other threats in the tier about sums up the lack of good anti-ban arguments thus far:
[quote by me to agree to disagree, specifically about a conversation about how shifu is not that different from Pult/Ninja/Meow/etc]
In summary, Urshifu-S is a broken and centralizing threat that aggravates the inherent matchup issues in Monotype. It is is not conducive to skilled play or a balanced metagame and should therefore be removed from the tier.
I wrote to agree to disagree because I wanted to keep the conversation focused on Urshifu instead of other mons in that context. I could have continued arguing, but it would have derailed a suspect thread mostly about Urshifu; it was not that I had nothing left to say. Overall taking a quote that I wrote out of context to make a point like you did isn't helpful; please avoid doing that in the future.
Poison definitely has the tools to deal with Urshifu-S comfortably, but I disagree that Water does. In terms of actual switch-ins to Urshifu-S on Water, you literally just have Dondozo and Azumarill (Dozo kinda loses to CB btw; forced to Rest and 3HKOed). It is possible to out-offense Urshifu-S on Water, but this requires in my opinion unreasonably good positioning due to how deadly +2 Adamant Sucker is, and relying on revenge killing to check mons is inherently unsustainable. Water struggles enough for teamslots as is, do you really want a metagame where every Water team is pigeonholed into using Dondozo, Azumarill, Scarf Urshifu-R, or Scarf Rotom-W just to not lose to this thing?
Water has a few other checks. Scarf Samurott-Hisui outspeeds it and deals major damage. Specs Greninja survives a +2 sucker punch with rocks up and OHKOS back, and weakened Greninja can cripple boosted Urshifu with Switcheroo. There are also niche options such as Sub Basculegion on Rain, Tauros-Aqua, and Scarf Quavacanl on some offensive builds. Also, Banded Jolly Urshifu-rapid-strike checks many opposing Urshifu-S in practice since a lot of them are adamant or lose the speed tie.
Overall, I'd argue that these checks are numerous and splashable enough that one should be able to fit multiple on most teams without much problem.
I think Flying is another example of a balance type that has a rough time against Urshifu-S as well; it can SD on the Corv switch-in to massively threaten it, breaks through Gliscor Protect, Scarf Enam becomes unsafe if the opponent ever gets rocks up, and basically everything else on the type folds to +2 Sucker. It is admittedly hard for Urshifu-S to SD in this MU, but it can still be very deadly even without a boost.
Flying has other checks as well. Dragonite basally checks everything due to Multiscale. Timid Moltres outspeeds Adamant Urshifu and burns with Wisp. Sub Zapdos dodges sucker punch and OHKOs back with Hurricane. Sub Lando-I works similarly. Zapdos-Galar resists Sucker punch and kills with CC or Brave Bird. Flying's more than capable of winning even without these additional safeguards due to how good scarf Enamorus is in the matchup, but they are there if the player wants to run them.
The difference between Urshifu-S and other strong Dark-types is that Urshifu-S has a Sucker Punch that can OHKO Flutter Mane at neutral, and, unlike Kingambit, hardly fears Ceruledge or Skeledirge. Ghost is railroaded into using either Sub Spectrier, Sub Dragapult, or Mimikyu if it wants to answer it; these aren't bad options by any means, but they shouldn't be mandatory in teambuilding. Psychic relies on a pretty sub-par mon in Scream Tail to have a shot at winning a matchup it should naturally excel in, and as the replays I posted show, still has an incredibly difficult time winning.
There is nothing wrong with some types having limited options in building IMO. Water is forced to run Toxapex for MeowScada for example, but no one uses this as an example of Meow being broken or overcentralizing.
As for psychic, well psychic just isn't very good at the moment and I doubt a shifu ban is fixing that.
This isn't an argument; saying Urshifu-S checks may be found in the future does nothing to refute its brokenness in the current metagame. I also fail to see what innovations will be found as the list of even paper checks to Urshifu-S is very small, and such checks will probably avoid compromises against other threats due to the pileup of broken offensive threats this meta has devolved into.
I think you're missing the point. Banning Zapdos when people wanted it banned in gen8 would probably be a mistake; it was the correct decision to let the meta adapt to it. Perhaps it might be the same with Urshifu. I can easily see a hypothetical future: for example, maybe more gliscor/Corvikngiht run U-turn to prevent Urshifu from getting free turns on them. Or maybe more people start running Sub Zapdos on their flying teams, or run more Sub Lando-I.
252+ Atk Black Glasses Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge on a critical hit: 350-414 (84.9 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
If Volcarona is coming in against Urshifu-S, it has to either pray for a Flame Body burn or run Will-O-Wisp, which involves sacrificing crucial coverage.
Bulky Volcarona should never be coming in against Urshifu-S. I don't understand why you state "if it does" when that is obviously not its role. It is a wincon that is supposed to get +1 on something that can't hurt it too much (say, iron hands), and if urshifu comes it, burn it with will-o-wisp. The reason why Volcarona helps here is not because it checks Urshifu directly, but that it can easily outright win the game against Fighting if maneuvered into the right position.
Skeledirge is also a massive threat because Urshifu--and quite frankly a lot of fighting--can't switch into it directly because they fear the burn too much; in addition, the fighting immunity prevents the fighting player from spamming their favorite STAB move.
As can be seen in the replay, Zama couldn't click CC into Clodsire, and couldn't Ice Fang through Treads or Quagsire. Scarf Tusk also wins 1v1 vs Band Zama. I will say Royal's team was not the best prepped to deal with Fighting, but Urshifu-S here was the only threat on that Fighting team that could clean up Royal's whole team comfortably given its strong dual STABs and access to priority. The Sneasler thing I brought up just to illustrate how good Ushifu-S' team support is, as one lucky Poison Touch proc was all it took here to render Quag useless againt Urshifu-S. I wouldn't fixate on this, because if Urshifu-S was Adamant it would have won the 1v1 anyway. Again, of importance here was how Urshifu-S singlehandedly wore down and removed Scarf Tusk over the course of the game.
a lot, so let's talk about it. There are a few points I want to make:
1. Urshifu first comes in at Turn 11. Let's replace Ushifu with literally any other self-respecting wallbreaker on fighting (Gallade, Breloom, Lilligant-h, banded Gapdos). Suddenly the ground player is losing much more quickly than they did in the replay above. Ushifu-S isn't accomplishing anything any other wallbreaker could do in the same situation.
2. By the time Urshifu comes out, Banded Zamazenta could have won by clicking CC, as multiple people have stated before me.
3. In the process of "wearing down great tusk", the Great Tusk user got 2 free turns to click HL/CC against the fighting team, which could have easily been 2 kills. Trading 2 mons to wear down Great Tusk to 50% (where it still lives a +2 sucker, btw) isn't something I would categorize as an unfair (or even favorable) trade, especially when you have to consider the Urshifu player has to find 2 free-switchins to make the trade in the first place.
4. Even if we willfully blind ourselves to the fact that literally any fighting-type wallbreaker could do a better job and Zamazenta could have cleaned pretty easily, and take the interpretation of the pro-ban side to heart-- that is, that "Urshifu-S singlehandedly wore down and removed Scarf Tusk over the course of the game, [given sufficiently many free switch-ins].", I have to ask the question: why is this considered to be a problem that needs to be fixed with a ban? Punishing overly passive play, encouraging players to take the initiative or be worn down--this should be considered conducive to skillful and competitive play. Initiative and Momentum are important concepts that every player should learn to familiarize themselves with.
Regardless, invalidating an entire archetype that can be played on many of the top types is enough for me to find this Pokemon unhealthy. Outside of balance teams Urshifu also can definitely farm more offensive teams such as Dragon, Ghost, or Psychic.
Urshifu isn't invalidating balance; last time I checked balance was still alive and well in the monotype metagame (and I personally spammed balance water for voting reqs, a lot of other people used balance as well in the urshifu-infested ladder and did fine); in fact, I'd personally argue it's still the most consistent style of play at the moment; I would go as far as to argue that Flying is still the best type at the moment. Saying "Urshifu invalidates balance" seems to ignore reality and makes me really question if you're arguing in good faith. I don't think Urshifu farms Dragon, as it's held in check by things like tankchomp (helmet + rough skin), dragonite, and faster threats such as Hydre and priority like Vaccum wave Kommo-o; it does well against Ghost (like all dark types tend to do) but it's still held in check by things like Mimikyu or Sub Spectrier. Psychic is sadly just really bad; there's no real saving the type atm IMO.
Put very simply the power of a +2 Black Glasses Sucker Punch is incredibly overwhelming in this tier when coupled with Wicked Blow to take care of anything slower. To anyone who is leaning toward DNB I ask you to take some time to make a Fighting team and learn to play it as well as you possibly can. I can pretty much guarantee that if you do this you will be bailed from countless games by this crazy bear.
When I was grinding for voting Reqs, I got bailed out a ton of times by Toxapex's stupid Regenerator ability and slew of resistances. I don't think that means Toxapex should be banned. Just because something bails you out a ton of times doesn't make it broken.
When I was grinding for voting Reqs, I got bailed out a ton of times by Toxapex's stupid Regenerator ability and slew of resistances. I don't think that means Toxapex should be banned. Just because something bails you out a ton of times doesn't make it broken.
#131: +mushamu: This is like losing to toxapex over and over again
+mushamu: maybe the problem isn’t toxapex
+mushamu: It’s you.
XYZ: pex needs a suspect bro
Not really sure what usage stats you're looking at here but it should really go without saying that usage stats don't necessarily correspond to what is actually good, I personally don't think it's at all a good idea to drop an attack move on Scream Tail considering that makes it completely passive and vulnerable to the mons it's supposed to check. In any event you haven't actually suggested a way as to how Psychic can win v Urshifu-S without Scream Tail or a D rank mon, something like Slowbro for instance which is broadly good against the rest of the metagame and other Dark types can't switch in and has to basically pray to burn it to win.
I mean, that's your opinion. I would agree - running no attacks Scream Tail isn't very good - but the usage stats are an objective statistic. I'm looking at the September 2023 ones, by the way. Trying to say that Psychic loses to Shifu is self-evident as well, and I'll agree: bulky Scream Tail is the main way to deal with Urshifu on Psychic. What I don't understand is your claim that its only purpose is to answer Urshifu and does nothing else for Psychic teams.
idk how you can look at that replay and seriously come to the come to the conclusion that this replay doesn't show its obvious strengths. At preview Urshifu-S is clearly deadly to this entire Psychic team, and ultimately Scream Tail getting Tricked a Scarf didn't prove to be especially consequential, because it was irrelevant to its inability to answer Urshifu-S despite it being run with phys def investment in order to beat it. Urshifu-S definitely doesn't need "careful positioning", it basically got a free KO every time it switched in here. This isn't even an argument, this is just you saying what happens in the replay and then saying you got nothing from it.
I'll concede that this replay shows Urshifu-S's strengths. Does it prove that it's banworthy? Far from it. Psychic will always struggle with strong Dark-types like Kingambit and Chien-Pao, because, let's face it, it's Psychic. A Dark-type beating Psychic, even with Scream Tail, is nothing new, and honestly doesn't add too much to this discussion.
If you're gonna make sweeping reductionist statements like this and completely ignore what makes Urshifu-S obviously different from all these other threats then idk what the point of this discussion even is. To just make a comparison to Urshifu-R for instance, Urshifu-S has an immunity to one of its weaknesses, is immune to Prankster Sableye, doesn't need to run Punching Glove to not lose to Rocky Helmet, has a far stronger priority move, and has a STAB combo with far less resistances and defensive answers in the current metagame. If you're trying to say all these mons are broken, that doesn't mean Urshifu-S shouldn't be banned because there's other broken stuff in the tier.
My point is not that these threats are on the level of Urshifu-S, but that your argument that "Urshifu-S is strong and has priority" is not unique to itself and is shared by a ton of strong Pokemon in the metagame. You appear to have misconstrued my point to mean that either all of these threats are broken or that I'm making "reductionist statements" when you've just missed the point.
Enough with the hyperbole already jfc, you don't have to paint me as a liar to make your point
Objectively (by your own stats!) Urshifu-S does not "only ever really run SD". Even if it only ever ran SD it would still be broken regardless, I brought up other sets because it means Urshifu-S counters are not set in stone and even if you prep for it, it still has the potential to massively catch you off guard.
Nobody is attacking you. I don't know where in the world you got this idea from, and I'm sorry if it seemed as though I was painting it as you lying, but I'm not calling you a liar. I'm simply saying that your point was disingenuous. Additionally, other sets aren't as common or worth discussing too often, and while I agree that it has the potential to catch you off guard, a 10% used set (as proved by Showl) isn't really going to be worth focusing on so much.
Again, that is not my point. My point is that FM seemed completely broken on paper and had a massive pro-ban constituent in the early days of the meta to the point where it was our first true suspect test, but ended up staying unbanned.
There's been a lot of talk about how Urshifu " invalidates the presence of balance teams in the tier", "punches holes right left and center", and " easily shreds apart balance teams on types such as Water, Ground, and Flying". I wanted to test this hypothesis with another strong player, so we played a few games-- fighting vs water, ground, and flying, and here they are:
vs water (Team is the water team mentioned above that I also submitted to samples):
There are misplays in the replays by both sides, but I would like you to see how Ushifu can stuggle to make meaningful progress against balance. In games vs Water and Ground, Urshifu didn't end up contributing much at all (In fact, the teammate's contributions were much more significant than anything Urshifu did), and against flying, the fighting team only won because Urshifu managed to dodge a Hurricane and because I threw away Enamorus like an idiot. Overall, I believe these matches show that Urshifu really isn't broken if the opponent knows how to play.
Nice! I like replay analysis and I appreciate you taking time out to get these. For next time though I think it'd be a good idea to reach out to someone in the opposite camp AND with multiple people or else it will seem... disingenuous. I trust in both of your characters though and I'm glad it was played in a way that's representative of a normal game so we can actually analyze them.
I won't go through the replays turn by turn looking for the most optimal play in EVERY scenario (one at most) because I don't think that's the right way to approach a replay analysis, rather I will be pointing out qualities and traits that I think highlight Urshifu's effect on the games.
Let's look at the first one, water v fighting, more closely. At preview we see and immediately we can realize that can always make progress against this team once it's sent out. With hazards on the field, Wicked Blow + CC is a threat to anything that's out in play and to anything that's unfortunate enough to switch in. Combined with , these two do a great job at dismantling this water team. In the game however the fighting team lost... BUT ONLY because of a speed tie that occured at the end.
I notice you made a point about contribution and I think the reason why Urshifu didn't get to contribute as much (despite seeing from preview its effects) is because it simply wasn't played that way when it could have and should have. I think Showl from the start intended to sweep with Urshifu (I might be wrong and misjudged his plan), hence his reservation in sending it out. I believe the better approach in this game would have been to push Urshifu to create holes in the opposition's core, breaking it down slowly and methodically.
I think turn 14 where Showl sends out Valiant against Quagsire's EQ illustrates Showl's apprehension to use Urshifu because taking unnecessary damage on Valiant is obviously NOT desirable yet that was the response he went with. This single turn has long-lasting implications for the remainder of the game, ruins his positioning, and limits his ability to send Valiant out to only TWO more times when there are still FOUR more slower Pokemon it can do work against. I believe the better play here was to send Urshifu out vs Quagsire and pressure it with Wicked Blow while taking at most 32% from EQ. While nothing is guaranteed, Showl is in a MUCH MORE favorable position here. He can simply throw out a Wicked Blow to test the waters and see what you'll allow to get chipped instead and if Quagsire decides to Recover spam, Valiant could come in at any time with less risk of EQ which allows Valiant to preserve its HP while getting a kill. There are still plays to be made, yeah, but no other Pokemon in his team could have exerted the same kind of pressure to give him a position like that. I harped on that turn a lot because it was a critical moment but my thoughts aside that was actually a very enjoyable game.
I spent too long on that one but moving onto the ground v fighting replay, this was actually quite one-sided because of the problem that the core of presents to the Showl's team. Between those three Pokemon, not a single one from Showl's can break through... with the exception of Urshifu. Progress quite literally only began with Urshifu's entrance into the game. That's not a "broken" trait by any means but to say it had no contribution is false. Toxic really hampered its effectiveness and ideally the ground team is softened more before it takes it. That game will be tough to win and Showl would have to pull a double switch here and there to really get going but Urshifu's effect shouldn't be downplayed when it's the only one that can break up the core from simply switching into itself.
With flying v fighting it did take some luck to win in the end but we can't exactly count on Hurricane always hitting nor Zapdos to always run it nor having enough speed to check Urshifu in the first place NOR completely rule out the possibility of Sucker Punch killing your Zapdos there and bypassing the Hurricane miss entirely. At that point in the game, what other Pokemon could have exerted the same kind of pressure to win it?
Also lol at Wisp Ceruledge, Garry the goat.
Wait, does Ghost have to resort to Colbur Wisp Ceruledge now?
and immediately we can realize that 
, these two do a great job at dismantling this water team. In the game however the fighting team lost... BUT ONLY because of a speed tie that occured at the end.
