Announcement SV Monotype Suspect #1: Flutter Mane

[RoyalReloaded]

hello, i finally qualified for reqs so i wanted to make a tier list of types right now.

I used ground for 95% of the games, so keep that in mind

just my opinion, feel free to reply with your own experiences

also revival blessing is extremely uncompetitive so i hope thats next

 

[TheWyvernKing]

hello, i finally qualified for reqs so i wanted to make a tier list of types right now.

I used ground for 95% of the games, so keep that in mind

just my opinion, feel free to reply with your own experiences

also revival blessing is extremely uncompetitive so i hope thats next

Yeah Grass/Ice are for sure C, maybe D tier for Ice. Steel is solid B-A tier and Fire for sure B tier.
I think this is a bit more representative but even so types like Psy/Bug could switch places, and Fairy could go down a spot also tbh I think it's a bit overrated.

 

[wkxkevin]

Yeah Grass/Ice are for sure C, maybe D tier for Ice. Steel is solid B-A tier and Fire for sure B tier.
I think this is a bit more representative but even so types like Psy/Bug could switch places, and Fairy could go down a spot also tbh I think it's a bit overrated.
View attachment 483610

I stonchly disagree with this tier list for 1 simple reason, ice is a bit low, steel is a bit bit high and poison is WAY too high. Imo everything would be perfect if both steel, poison, and ice are in B-tier.

 

[RoyalReloaded]

I'm sure steel could be good but I encountered it the least out of all of the types, so I'm not really sure where to rank it

 

[TheWyvernKing]

I'm sure steel could be good but I encountered it the least out of all of the types, so I'm not really sure where to rank it

I stonchly disagree with this tier list for 1 simple reason, ice is a bit low, steel is a bit bit high and poison is WAY too high. Imo everything would be perfect if both steel, poison, and ice are in B-tier.

Aight seeing this I realize I shouldn't have replied to the VR at all, as the discussion should be focused on Flutter. You posted a VR RoyalReloaded on what's difficult for Ground to face, but didn't propose any ideas on whether Flutter is banworthy or not, so it'd probs be cool to hear some thoughts from you as you have gotten reqs.

In general I don't think Flutter is broken, but for Ground in particular Flutter is an easier mon to handle. Just about any physical scarf that's commonly run can OHKO, and there are common answers that are practical to run and help with other threats. Special Defensive Iron Treads I brought up earlier, is probs the best example of this. Ground was 1 of 4 types I used to get Reqs (Bug/Dark/Ground/Water), and overall Flutter was perhaps a strong mon but never one that felt unhealthy to face. I share this position for facing it with other types I've done runs with. Even if I felt it was a good idea to run a tech such as assault vest heavy slam eelektross, that's still a mon useful for other matchups and can be used to put together viable builds in the meta.

 

[RoyalReloaded]

I apologize for posting my list, the main thread was locked so I assumed all discussion was to be moved here and it was not strictly for flutter mane talk. I think Flutter Mane is not broken at all. I think that Monotype is very enjoyable right now and the only thing that I find problematic is Revival Blessing. Ting-Lu feels incredibly strong right now as well but im not sure if it meets the metric of banworthy or not

 

[cpt.kraken]

Hi everyone, i've got my reqs with mainly ice in 45 games.

I think Flutter Mane is only a threat as a Choice Specs because Choice Scarf does not enough damages so it's just a counter to other FMs, Pults and Valiants, Paos with conditions, so it has to predict the good switch to be efficient. I've never faced a CM set and imo that doesn't seem worthy at all compare to a Choice one (even the scarf) as it was mentionned : needs coverage, a sub, a lot of luck with Shadow Ball and hope to not be para/poisonned. Psyshock + Sball it's free Dark types, , Moonblast + Psyshock its free steel types, Moonblast + Sball it's free clodsire toxa spedef (maybe the best one?), and so on…
There are plenty of counters to it in BO / Stall archetypes as everyone mentionned and HO needs to know which mon to sacrifice to have an advantage, same thing than an Iron Valiant, Dragapult, ChienPao, … It is an offensive threat, definitely, but not a broken one. I alway build to have an answer to fast mons: chlorophyl / swift swim, DD, scarf, priorities and hazards to cheap so FM is already solved while i'm taking care of Dragapult (way more options viable so can be much more a threat but not banworthy at all, don't misinterpret).

When I'm reading someone pro ban, everything is in theory but I've never faced those cases and as I said, even a Choice Scarf seems to be better (tho it just cuddles most mons) than CM sets. I can get that generally for mono Dragon and maybe Fight it is pretty complex to deal with FM especially in mono Fairy or in Ghost with Pult + Mimikyu but it doesnt seem impossible with priorities / scarf / hazards. But open to discussion !

For me it's a NOT BAN as I've never struggled against it.

 

[ken]

text

Hi everyone, i've got my reqs with mainly ice in 45 games.

I think Flutter Mane is only a threat as a Choice Specs because Choice Scarf does not enough damages so it's just a counter to other FMs, Pults and Valiants, Paos with conditions, so it has to predict the good switch to be efficient. I've never faced a CM set and imo that doesn't seem worthy at all compare to a Choice one (even the scarf) as it was mentionned : needs coverage, a sub, a lot of luck with Shadow Ball and hope to not be para/poisonned. Psyshock + Sball it's free Dark types, , Moonblast + Psyshock its free steel types, Moonblast + Sball it's free clodsire toxa spedef (maybe the best one?), and so on…
There are plenty of counters to it in BO / Stall archetypes as everyone mentionned and HO needs to know which mon to sacrifice to have an advantage, same thing than an Iron Valiant, Dragapult, ChienPao, … It is an offensive threat, definitely, but not a broken one. I alway build to have an answer to fast mons: chlorophyl / swift swim, DD, scarf, priorities and hazards to cheap so FM is already solved while i'm taking care of Dragapult (way more options viable so can be much more a threat but not banworthy at all, don't misinterpret).

When I'm reading someone pro ban, everything is in theory but I've never faced those cases and as I said, even a Choice Scarf seems to be better (tho it just cuddles most mons) than CM sets. I can get that generally for mono Dragon and maybe Fight it is pretty complex to deal with FM especially in mono Fairy or in Ghost with Pult + Mimikyu but it doesnt seem impossible with priorities / scarf / hazards. But open to discussion !

For me it's a NOT BAN as I've never struggled against it.

Congrats on getting the reqs, but you need to post your proof here. Follow the previous examples on how to do it and welcome to the forums.

 

[Jahkem]

Played a little more than half my games with Fire, little less than half with Ghost, and a few shuffled games with Steel, Water, and Ice to get reqs.

From the games I encountered Flutter and the games I played with Flutter, none of the games felt unplayable. I came across every set mentioned and was able to play around it accordingly once it was revealed what item it was whether through calc or observing my opponents plays. Flutter is strong and should be considered when building for ladder or tour play. Each type has their own way of dealing with Flutter while not losing out much against other matchups.

I'll post a few sets from the teams I used that helped me handle Flutter. Do note that these sets aren't the perfect counters. These sets along with proper plays helped me out in my games.

Fire

Rotom-Heat

Rotom-Heat @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Thunder Wave
- Volt Switch
- Overheat

252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Heat: 139-165 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Heat: 93-111 (30.5 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 127-150 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Tauros-Paldea-Fire

Tauros-Paldea-Fire (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Raging Bull
- Close Combat
- Bulk Up
- Flame Charge

+1 252 Atk Tauros-Paldea-Fire Raging Bull vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 316-373 (125.8 - 148.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This set required me to get myself in a position to either set a Bulk Up or set Sun after it was para'd by Rotom-Heat.

Water

Alomomola

Alomomola @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 36 HP / 220 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Liquidation
- Wish
- Protect
- Mirror Coat

252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 36 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 273-322 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 229-271 (47.7 - 56.4%) -- 30.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 36 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 183-216 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Flutter Mane Energy Ball vs. 36 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 230-272 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Dondozo

Dondozo @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 156 HP / 100 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Wave Crash

252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 156 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 225-265 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 156 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 151-178 (31.4 - 37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Flutter Mane Energy Ball vs. 156 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 192-226 (40 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ghost

Flutter Mane

Flutter Mane @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Shadow Ball
- Mystical Fire
- Thunderbolt

252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Flutter Mane: 206-246 (82 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Flutter Mane: 138-164 (54.9 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I included some non-Specs calcs because I mainly ran into either non-Choiced variants like Lefties, LO, and HBD or the occasional Choice Scarf set.

Overall, as long as you have at least 1 or 2 things for Flutter, the games are playable. But just because you have a couple checks for Flutter doesn't mean the game is handed to you. There's still skillful plays to be made against Flutter. Every type has at least a couple different ways to handle this powerful mon.

Most likely voting No Ban.

 

[TheArchitect_]

I've had a good 3 weeks or so with this meta and it's a welcome change from the snoozefest that was SWSH. Any issues with fluttermane stems from inadequate team building.

 

[LSM]

I am a player trying to get into monotype battles, and every time I battle someone with Flutter Mane on their team, it is almost impossible to kill due to its monstrous SPA and SPE stats, and it wipes out half my team unless I have some sort of counter for it. And coming up with a counter could restrict teams to a pokemon who has a super effective STAB move with priority to have a chance of KOing it. It could also restrict what kind of teams people make, and restrict any sort of originality (to an extent). and its typing is insane, having an x4 resistance to bug, having THREE immunities to fighting, normal, and dragon, whilst only having 2 weaknesses to ghost and steel. The only way to deal with Flutter Mane is too

A. restrict a single pokemon to being a Flutter Mane counter, which means it has to be BOTH beefy in SPD and either very high in SPE or it has to have a lot of priority moves that are super effective, which HAVE to be ghost or steel type moves

B. use Flutter Mane itself to actually win against Flutter Mane itself.

It is going to negatively affect how people play Monotype. They need a pokemon that can tank a hit from Flutter Mane, and then be able to kill it, but then they can't always use the type they want to use then. In my opinion, I think Flutter Mane should get a hard BAN!

 

[Metrona]

As a biased mono rock player who isn't actually gonna vote
I think fluttermane is fine cause garganacl handles it real good :v
And thus my biased assessment of fluttermane is concluded

Yeah Grass/Ice are for sure C, maybe D tier for Ice. Steel is solid B-A tier and Fire for sure B tier.
I think this is a bit more representative but even so types like Psy/Bug could switch places, and Fairy could go down a spot also tbh I think it's a bit overrated.
View attachment 483610

Also being biased, put rock in C cause we can at least win some games against the higher threats unlike normal :x

 

[maroon]

Hey, I'm just going to make a quick post (a lot of similar posts have already been made) on why i will be voting do not ban for this suspect test.

Over the course of the ladder I have used a variety of types and teams, the only types that really had a hard time against Flutter Mane such as Fighting, didn't have a good matchup against Ghost or Fairy either way. While the majority of types I have used can handly check Flutter Mane whether through priority, using a choice scarf, or in a few pokemon case just naturally outspeeding it, I have not had much trouble defeating it.

For example flying teams can make use of corviknight's great natural defenses to tank shadow ball or thunderbolt from flutter mane and ohko it in return with iron head, which stands up against Flutter Mane on Fairy teams as well. Other defensive cores such as Clodsire and Iron Treads can take advantage of Specs and easily handle Calm Mind sets. Dark can outspeed it through means such as Choice Scarf Meowscarada or priority from attackers such as Kingambit and Chien-Pao. Look at others posts in the thread.

Overall, I think Flutter Mane is an extremely good Pokemon, but held back as without Choice Specs its damage output is not super impressive, and can be maneuvered around when choiced through decent playing and teambuilding. Flutter Mane is fine in the current metagame and should not be banned.

 

[Aqua Jet]

every time I battle someone with Flutter Mane on their team, it is almost impossible to kill due to its monstrous SPA and SPE stats, and it wipes out half my team unless I have some sort of counter for it.

This can be said for any good Pokemon. "Dragapult is impossible to kill due to its fantastic Attack and Speed unless I have an answer for it" is a bad argument because of course you're going to struggle with something that you ignore in the builder.

A. restrict a single pokemon to being a Flutter Mane counter, which means it has to be BOTH beefy in SPD and either very high in SPE

As Maroon mentions in the post above mine, a Pokemon doesn't have to be *that* bulky to answer Flutter Mane as long as it is invested in Special Defence, which isn't really a liability for many Pokemon.
Also, a lot of the top types right now (read: types that you should be using) have some sort of counterplay to Flutter Mane, ranging from Corviknight to Swift Swim users to even Choice Scarf Meowscarada.

If this wasn't clear, I have changed my position and do not think Flutter Mane should be banned. As Ken mentioned in their post, on paper Flutter Mane is impossible to deal with but in practice, I feel like it can be played around enough, with a lot of types packing natural answers to it.

 

[Kev]

Flutter Mane remains in Monotype