Metagame Suspect Discussion - Baton Pass

[fatty]

First off, sorry I haven't posted yet in this thread, I've kind of been taken aback by the whole BP suspect anyways, so I was waiting to see if there were actually any good arguments for the ban of BP. As I should have expected, there literally has been zero good arguments for the banning of BP and as Heysup has mentioned before, there's more work going into trying to prove BP is a legitimate play style, much less actually being broken lol. I'm also starting to realize what Heysup was talking about in the metagame discussion with the whole suspect process. I wanted to have faith in the lc community, I believed there was at least one good suspect left for this particular metagame. Sadly, I was mistaken, and all the people who bandwagoned on the BP train during the nomination stage has let down the entire LC community. Not in the fact of whether BP is broken or not, that is more or less irrelevant at this point, but the fact that everyone who apparently felt BP was broken enough to nominate it has failed to show up and has, so far, made a mockery of the process I tried to have so much faith in. I don't hate the fact that BP was nominated, I hate that it was nominated for apparently no reason. If you're going to nominate something, nominate with intent, not just to do so.

I'm in class so I'll post more on my actual opinion on BP later, I was just getting fed up with this whole thing and had to get it off my chest. Hopefully some actual arguments as to why BP might be ban worthy, if they even exist, will start to show up as there certainly seemed to be enough backing in the nomination thread.

 

[macle]

You make it sound as if when you're teambuilding you have to consider baton pass and hence you have to have certain Pokemon to beat it. I really hope this isn't the case, but in case it is what you are implying is having a team with no taunt, encore, whirlwind or even clear smog/haze users in a metagame as dependent on stat boosting, hazards, spore, recovery moves and status moves as LC is consistent with good teambulding?

You've used the word "balanced" very casually. I don't feel like having something that can prevent status moves is over-centralizing nor do I feel that baton pass is in any way equates to guaranteed wins.

I was implying the opposite unless I'm reading your post wrong. Not having taunt / encore / ww / haze / clear smog / offensive mon that deals with bp like fletchling is bad team building for ladder battles and you should lose if you face bp if you aren't prepared for it, just like if your team isn't prepared for any threat. That's how i was using the term balanced.

Since the discussion is kind dying out, I'll play devil's advocate for a bit. Adding another playable team style makes LC more match up based and luck based so limiting BP removes another threat that you have to prepare for so that you can focus on the other playstyles / threats, making the metagame better.

 

[Camden]

Since the discussion is kind dying out, I'll play devil's advocate for a bit. Adding another playable team style makes LC more match up based and luck based so limiting BP removes another threat that you have to prepare for so that you can focus on the other playstyles / threats, making the metagame better.

I feel like if you're using BP and trying to abuse the luck aspect of it, you're a bad player. If we were to remove/nerf BP specifically to have less match-ups in the meta, we should remove VoltTurning, auto-weather inducers, Berry Juice, Choice Scarf, Knock Off, and Focus Sash, because they all aid to particular team types. If we have less match-up variety in the meta, we end up in a state where everyone is using the same team all with slight variations, and while some people may be okay with that type of metagame, I don't sit well with it. While balanced, that's incredibly boring, so it certainly isn't "better", at least from my perspective.

 

[Artemis Fowl]

In case it wasn't mentionned clearly enough in the post I linked, there are no pokemons in LC having rock, or electric, or steel typing, that learn Baton Pass.
I believe this statement is enough to invalidate the viability of Baton Pass.

 

[Yagura]

In case it wasn't mentionned clearly enough in the post I linked, there are no pokemons in LC having rock, or electric, or steel typing, that learn Baton Pass.
I believe this statement is enough to invalidate the viability of Baton Pass.

I guess you're talking about Fletchling which is a threat for BP chains, however there is Torchic which can Will-o-Wisp Fletchling rendering it useless unless you see that coming and then go with a mon that set up Barrier, and you won't be bringing Fletchling until the chain boosted its Defense already will you? I don't really know how does that point matter much when people who have a slight competitive knowledge and know what they're doing through the match and while building the team can easily play around Fletchling without getting destroyed by it. Also, please keep in mind that solid BP teams isn't just mons that form the chain, they include some Pokémon that can check BP's threats which include Fletchling's checks.

 

[Rumor]

1) Is Baton Pass broken?

fuck no. it takes 100% luck and 0% talent. If you dont have at least 1 taunt user you need to make some team changes. Also i'd like to add when i was laddering for suspect reqs i didnt see one baton pass team.

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?

i haven't noticed a difference...

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

if you lose to bp, the most you'll probably do is take a big long sigh and contemplate what everything you've ever done wrong in your life.. losing to bp is more of a shame if anything. BP doesnt take much still to perform and if it works its like you won the lottery, odds are you just found a new player or your opponent was blindfolded with 2 arms behind his back while also being 3 miles from his computer.
4) If there is a Baton Pass nerf, how exactly are we nerfing it?

I dont think it needs a nerf but if you were, just make it like the OU nerf: making it only useable by 1 pokemon.

im also upset that missy isnt getting a re-suspect so if we could suspect that instead of this thatd be great

 

[Heysup]

I guess you're talking about Fletchling which is a threat for BP chains, however there is Torchic which can Will-o-Wisp Fletchling rendering it useless unless you see that coming and then go with a mon that set up Barrier, and you won't be bringing Fletchling until the chain boosted its Defense already will you? I don't really know how does that point matter much when people who know what they're doing can easily play around Fletchling. Also, please keep in mind that solid BP teams isn't just mons that form the chain, they include some Pokémon that can check BP's threats which include Fletchling's checks.

We've been over this already. You don't lead Fletchling against Torchic. You can beat Torchic with like 80% of the metagame and then SD with Fletchling on something else.

 

[Yagura]

We've been over this already. You don't lead Fletchling against Torchic. You can beat Torchic with like 80% of the metagame and then SD with Fletchling on something else.

Not like Torchic won't have any use if the opponent doesn't lead with Fletchling, and you say that Torchic apparently gets beaten by 80% of the metagame (?) but keep in mind that it can set up and get at least +2 Speed boosts on anything that doesn't carry Taunt/Encore/Phazer (which clearly isn't 80% of the meta) and switch into another baton pass chain member that can deal with the thing that was trying to deal with Torchic.

1) Is Baton Pass broken?

fuck no. it takes 100% luck and 0% talent. If you dont have at least 1 taunt user you need to make some team changes. Also i'd like to add when i was laddering for suspect reqs i didnt see one baton pass team.

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?

i haven't noticed a difference...

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

if you lose to bp, the most you'll probably do is take a big long sigh and contemplate what everything you've ever done wrong in your life.. losing to bp is more of a shame if anything. BP doesnt take much still to perform and if it works its like you won the lottery, odds are you just found a new player or your opponent was blindfolded with 2 arms behind his back while also being 3 miles from his computer.
4) If there is a Baton Pass nerf, how exactly are we nerfing it?

I dont think it needs a nerf but if you were, just make it like the OU nerf: making it only useable by 1 pokemon.

im also upset that missy isnt getting a re-suspect so if we could suspect that instead of this thatd be great

As someone that agrees along with a BP nerf I'm sorry to say that you're wrong or you're just mixing BP in OU with BP in LC? First of all you state that BP relies totally on luck and 0% on talent which is actually the opposite: while facing and using BP you'll need a lot of predictions (50/50s intensify again) and the ability to make the right play in the right moment which relies on talent and isn't like the lottery as you say, there is that 6.5% chance to crit the chain and destroy it but I only see the element that relies on luck when it comes to BP.

Anyways, I gtg sleep so I won't reply to any other posts till tomorrow.

 

[gali]

We've been over this already. You don't lead Fletchling against Torchic. You can beat Torchic with like 80% of the metagame and then SD with Fletchling on something else.

I don't see the logic behind this. If you're bringing in Fletchling later (or any other boosting sweeper for that matter), your opponent will almost certainly have some Defense boosts under their belt, which makes it a lot easier for the chain to just BP to their Stored Power user and kill it.

 

[Rumor]

Not like Torchic won't have any use if the opponent doesn't lead with Fletchling, and you say that Torchic apparently gets beaten by 80% of the metagame (?) but keep in mind that it can set up and get at least +2 Speed boosts on anything that doesn't carry Taunt/Encore/Phazer (which clearly isn't 80% of the meta) and switch into another baton pass chain member that can deal with the thing that was trying to deal with Torchic.

As someone that agrees along with a BP nerf I'm sorry to say that you're wrong or you're just mixing BP in OU with BP in LC? First of all you state that BP relies totally on luck and 0% on talent which is actually the opposite: while facing and using BP you'll need a lot of predictions (50/50s intensify again) and the ability to make the right play in the right moment which relies on talent and isn't like the lottery as you say, there is that 6.5% chance to crit the chain and destroy it but I only see the element that relies on luck when it comes to BP.

Anyways, I gtg sleep so I won't reply to any other posts till tomorrow.

I totally understand what you're saying and i appreciate your reply. But you can't always BP with the same team vs every team. What i meant by luck is essentially: Whether you have team-matchup (i know this sounds OU based but it can also apply to LC), amount of taunt users, anti leads, etc. You can't always set off a BP either. Theres things like essentially stop BP, i would name some unaware pokes but there seems to be a lack of them (unless you wanna use wooper like wtf), but im just going to say.. Slowpoke? The main bper is essentially Torchic, correct? Slowpoke can fire off T-waves/Scalds/Psychics w/e and beat the recipient of BP. If i could think of any more bp stoppers (Taunt Mienfoo, anything with roar) i would name them here but maybe i'll comeback and edit this later if i remember. Also, sure you could rely on a crit, but that just seems silly @_@. I wouldnt be too upset if BP got banned since its never really affected me, but if its really that big of a problem i'd be happy to comply.

 

[Merritt]

So to provoke discussion I'm gonna pull a macle and speak for the devil.

Abilities like Shadow Tag and moves like Swagger have been decried for their uncompetitiveness (although a great number of people would disagree with this term in the case of Shadow Tag) which Baton Pass is not. I argue that Baton Pass is unhealthy because it forces hypercompetitiveness (I'm coining this) in the form of a prediction based, 50/50 game with few exceptions, which is almost equally unhealthy by highly increasing the entry barrier and forcing a single aspect of a match to the spotlight.

While a few hard counters/checks to Baton Pass exist before the chain is fully realized in the form of Haze, Phazing, and Cottonee exist, it is unreasonable to say that forcing a player to use one of these, who oftentimes simply do not fit in a given playstyle, is a good answer. This is actually rather similar to the oft-quoted statement that "just because something has counters does not mean it is not banworthy". A team which lacks these (which is a supermajority of the meta) enters into the realm of Baton Pass' forcing hypercompetitiveness.

The main answer given to beating Baton Pass is setup mons such as Drilbur, Fletchling, and SD Pawniard. The issue is the common lead of Baton Pass teams, Torchic and its will-o-wisp. This forces a turn 1 50/50, because while all of these mons outspeed (or in Fletchling's case, outpriority) Torchic also has the option of protecting on the first turn before burning. If the setup mon uses their attack on protect, the are promptly burned the next turn and fail to KO. After that any attempts to boost through burn give Torchic an opportunity to set up a substitute before passing to their defense booster, who can then setup defensive boosts to outstrip the possible offensive boosts. On the other hand, a turn 1 boost can be met by a will-o-wisp, resulting in virtually the same scenario. The only sweepers that do not care about a burn are guts mons and special setup sweepers (which are few), who are quite effective, although BU Timburr boosts more slowly than Barrier. Either way the opening is extremely prediction based if a setup mon leads against torchic.

Another common answer to the torchic lead is Chinchou, but Chinchou has its own issues with BP. Unlike physical attackers, Chinchou is unhindered by burn outside residual damage, but it is easily set up on. The common scald/volt switch two attacks Chinchou has issues with Substitute, as even though it will break every sub, risking volt switch if you do not have a better answer can be devastating, so scald is the best option by far. However, once Torchic has boosted to an acceptable speed it can BP to Mime Jr. who can take a scald, CM to survive the next scald or Volt Switch while simultaneously activating Berry Juice, and then proceed to start the snowballing effect of the chain. Alternatively, if you have a fletchling and decide to Volt Switch to it, the BPer can possibly predict and Barrier instead, which will let Mime Jr. survive and continue the chain.

Even taunt can be played around with sacrificial members on the team. A baton pass chain can work with a skeleton crew of only three members (although barely) so by playing around the taunt with sacrifices until the taunter is worn down the chain can still be completed, although it still requires extreme prediction.

The sheer amount of prediction that a BP team forces if you don't carry a hard counter is unhealthy, as it takes away from the teambuilding aspect of the game and rewards perfect prediction to the point where the so called "safe" plays become risky is just as bad as swagger, which could theoretically be played around by switching every single turn until all of swagger's PP was gone. It means that good players whose skill does not lie in perfect prediction can also fall to a player whose only skill is good prediction, barring hax.

please be gentle on me

 

[Goddess Briyella]

While a few hard counters/checks to Baton Pass exist before the chain is fully realized in the form of Haze, Phazing, and Cottonee exist, it is unreasonable to say that forcing a player to use one of these, who oftentimes simply do not fit in a given playstyle, is a good answer. This is actually rather similar to the oft-quoted statement that "just because something has counters does not mean it is not banworthy". A team which lacks these (which is a supermajority of the meta) enters into the realm of Baton Pass' forcing hypercompetitiveness.

You aren't forced to run anything unorthodox or anything at all for that matter to have a means of dealing with Baton Pass teams. The sheer amount of Pokemon and moves that screw the strategy come in handy for several other viable uses where the ability to mess with Baton Pass chains is just an added perk, which is what makes not having an answer to Baton Pass a bit funny. YOU are responsible for what's in YOUR team. Taunt is widely used as a means to stop hazard laying and stall maneuvers, and as I've said probably twice already, Taunt is currently the most common fourth move on the highest used Pokemon in the metagame, and it is used for reasons other than Baton Pass. Fletchling and Pawniard are obvious threats in the metagame at large in their own rights as well.

The sheer amount of prediction that a BP team forces if you don't carry a hard counter is unhealthy, as it takes away from the teambuilding aspect of the game and rewards perfect prediction to the point where the so called "safe" plays become risky is just as bad as swagger, which could theoretically be played around by switching every single turn until all of swagger's PP was gone. It means that good players whose skill does not lie in perfect prediction can also fall to a player whose only skill is good prediction, barring hax.

Hard counter? PP stalling as a side strategy to beat confusion hax? Lol

im kinda new to lc but ive done a bit of reading and researching so here goes my input.

first thing is that baton pass in lc is not comparable with baton pass in ou at all lol they have much better tools to use that can be broken imo when used all together. little cup does not have a magic bounce user that can baton pass, nor does it have an ingrain user that can baton pass (to prevent being roared out), and to be real, outside of torchic (which is 100% super predictable) and mienfoo, mime jr, munna for stored power, venonat, maybe spinarak for drypassing, there really are no good users of the move, and the only one thats actually an unpredictable user of baton pass is mienfoo and thats if it doesnt have 5 other passers at preview. like briyella said, a really important weaknesss of full baton pass is fletchling just eats the whole team after swords dance, which is no exaggeration lol i noticed that ppl like to say fletchling isnt as threatening as it was cause "everyone is prepared for it" but lmao if ur using full baton pass u are def not prepared for it and it will eat ur whole team while u just sit there and try to boost shit.

after testing with bp myself both with it and against it i can comfortably say form my experience that is not broken and doesnt make the game unfun lol it usually just makes me laugh, esp if the player using it doesnt forfeit in the first few turns after they see how fucked they are

dont let bp teams have free setup turns esp in the beginning, if ur opp has torchic make an appropriate lead and not somethin dumb like dwebble or ferroseed to try and get early rocks like a dumbass. if you play offense, run taunt like a prepared person.



this. again, back to huge fletchling weakness lol.

anyway these are my thoughts, first suspect i posted in and it actually makes no sense, not sure about this community's voters but tbh nothing was even broken in the first place for this shit lol

bye

/squee

Omg good post lol I'm so proud of you

 

[Heysup]

Not like Torchic won't have any use if the opponent doesn't lead with Fletchling, and you say that Torchic apparently gets beaten by 80% of the metagame (?) but keep in mind that it can set up and get at least +2 Speed boosts on anything that doesn't carry Taunt/Encore/Phazer (which clearly isn't 80% of the meta) and switch into another baton pass chain member that can deal with the thing that was trying to deal with Torchic.

Fletchling does not care about Speed boosts.

I don't see the logic behind this. If you're bringing in Fletchling later (or any other boosting sweeper for that matter), your opponent will almost certainly have some Defense boosts under their belt, which makes it a lot easier for the chain to just BP to their Stored Power user and kill it.

No they won't. There's been proof that it's not even remotely difficult to prevent defense boosts early game. You can't just ignore the facts and keep asserting things like this. That may be your best shot at getting by the arguments, which is hopefully very telling for the council, however, it does not promote healthy discussion.

Merritt:

Your post is filled with recycled and previously debunked arguments. It is not beneficial to play the devil's advocate if you don't bring anything new to the table (I already gave macle shit on IRC for this too).

 

[antemortem]

(i know this sounds OU based but it can also apply to LC), amount of taunt users, anti leads, etc. You can't always set off a BP either. Theres things like essentially stop BP, i would name some unaware pokes but there seems to be a lack of them (unless you wanna use wooper like wtf), but im just going to say.. Slowpoke? The main bper is essentially Torchic, correct? Slowpoke can fire off T-waves/Scalds/Psychics w/e and beat the recipient of BP. If i could think of any more bp stoppers (Taunt Mienfoo, anything with roar) i would name them here but maybe i'll comeback and edit this later if i remember. Also, sure you could rely on a crit, but that just seems silly @_@.

If you're going to argue against BP (or about anything in LC in general) I suggest learning a bit more of the metagame before trying to dispute it one way or another. And Yagura wasn't saying that you should rely on a crit to break a chain, but building the argument that BP requires a percentile of skill in knowing when it's right to make certain plays. Furthermore that the aspect of luck involved lies in potential crits, but even then, not crits from the BP chain mons but the ones the chain is playing against. Also the very notion that you'd have to use uncommon mons just to beat bp suggests that it is overcentralizing/detrimental to teambuilding, but that's not entirely the point you're making so I'll just leave that there. to clarify: i don't care to thoroughly discuss baton pass since i'm neutral to it, but i saw that you misconstrued yagura's post and don't understand the meta completely so i figured i'd butt in

 

[Rumor]

If you're going to argue against BP (or about anything in LC in general) I suggest learning more of the metagame before trying to dispute it one way or another. And Yagura wasn't saying that you should rely on a crit to break a chain, but building the argument that BP requires a percentile of skill in knowing when it's right to make certain plays. Furthermore that the aspect of luck involved lies in potential crits, but even then, not crits from the BP chain mons but the ones the chain is playing against. Also the very notion that you'd have to use uncommon mons just to beat bp suggests that it is overcentralizing/detrimental to teambuilding, but that's not entirely the point you're making so I'll just leave that there. to clarify: i don't care to thoroughly discuss baton pass since i'm neutral to it, but i saw that you misconstrued yagura's post and don't understand the meta completely so i figured i'd butt in

thats not entirely what i meant. I hadn't realized that slowpoke was so low in usage that it was considered 'uncommon'. Sure, you caught me off guard by saying that I dont know much about it, which is true that i don't. I basically know what i've been up against and within the 30 minutes that Briyella taught me with her tutoring. I'm clearly in a corner here so i'm just going to not rebuttal with anything that could make me look sillier

 

[Killua kun]

1) Is Baton Pass broken?
It depends on many factors, but I would say no.
Maybe to a player who does not often use this strategy it may seem difficult to manage because of the booster including the most popular, torchic which is almost always the core.
It can have different sets and unexpected every time, and once used curse / sword dance at the same time getting the boost in speed, can spend all the recipient that may or may continue to boost himself in defenses and then re-batonpass to stored power user ( munna, Togepi) in the case of fullpass or cleaner in case of semi-batonpass.
But what makes it quite fermabile is the variety of phazer (dtail, roar), encore, sturdy juice users
Honestly I fear more the semi-batonpass rather than the full, in fact, with the presence of many sturdy juice pokemon is difficult for batonpass able to prevail, but having the stealth rock from her, the situation changes! because they make it unnecessary sturdy
Baton pass in lc has no magic bounce (unless you use natu as recipient cleaner) and I do not think I ever saw a few pokemon that uses ingrain to prevent being phazed.
The presence of Cottonee think very batonpass limits, like all the other factors listed! Basically do not consider him a threat.

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?
I think his presence is more annoying than anything else, but I think that is not a reason to ban the combination.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
Absolutely not, The tier little cup is beautiful and I think no one has ever mentioned otherwise. In the end you just keep account in building phase to be prepared in the field.

4) If there is a Baton Pass nerf, how exactly are we nerfing it?
If in the case I would have to establish a nerf I would say that the moves to limit it to a single member is the best choice, but it is not necessary for me, because the weapons to stop are there.

 

[boo836]

Since the discussion is kind dying out, I'll pla devil's advocate for a bit. Adding another playable team style makes LC more match up based and luck based so limiting BP removes another threat that you have to prepare for so that you can focus on the other playstyles / threats, making the metagame better.

As i've stated before, it isn't matchup based when you've pretty much said countermeasures that can be placed on a team in some form or another.

If you're going to argue against BP (or about anything in LC in general) I suggest learning a bit more of the metagame before trying to dispute it one way or another. And Yagura wasn't saying that you should rely on a crit to break a chain, but building the argument that BP requires a percentile of skill in knowing when it's right to make certain plays. Furthermore that the aspect of luck involved lies in potential crits, but even then, not crits from the BP chain mons but the ones the chain is playing against. Also the very notion that you'd have to use uncommon mons just to beat bp suggests that it is overcentralizing/detrimental to teambuilding, but that's not entirely the point you're making so I'll just leave that there. to clarify: i don't care to thoroughly discuss baton pass since i'm neutral to it, but i saw that you misconstrued yagura's post and don't understand the meta completely so i figured i'd butt in

There are MANY Pokemon that can be used to beat Baton Pass, including Fletch, Pawniard, Surskit, Vullaby, Hippopotas, and plenty of other measures. these are not uncommon, nor are they particularly difficult to fit on teams.

I'm going to be frank, I see very little merit in this discussion. If people have to be devil's advocate just to present a decent opposing argument, then we have an issue. When opposition is having difficulty in even establishing BP as a legitimate playstyle, I don't see much point in discussion. When I see people making blatantly false statements just to present an opposing argument or otherwise seem neutral, we have a problem.

I'm not going to pretend that we're doing anything constructive. I'm suggesting we bring this discussion to a close soon, then discuss possible policy changes to avoid a repeat of this suspect.

 

[inscribe]

Since the discussion is kind dying out, I'll play devil's advocate for a bit. Adding another playable team style makes LC more match up based and luck based so limiting BP removes another threat that you have to prepare for so that you can focus on the other playstyles / threats, making the metagame better.

It's just that Baton Pass isn't hard to prepare for at all. We've established previously that there are a ton of ways to deal with Baton Pass, and as far as I know, every common playstyle gets access to one of those Baton Pass weapons without being forced to run an obscure pokemon or put a negative strain on teambuilding.

 

[Sae]

1) Is Baton Pass broken?

• Direct Answer: No

Actually though I feel the inclusion of Baton Pass just makes the metagame healthier than restricts it. If your team cannot handle a Full BP Chain, then it really needs work. Most teams just naturally fit things that check BP, and it isn't like you have to go out of your way to find a niche. Taunt Mienfoo, Fletch, Scarf users, etc. can put pressure on BP teams already. Practically any playstyle has the means to deal with it, and honestly if you lose to a BP team just use it as a wake-up-call for your team and make the appropriate changes to your team. If it's one mon or it's one move then BP just made your team better for other threats as well.

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?

Winning against Baton Pass teams isn't terribly difficult as there are the appropriate means for every type of team to deal with it. Honestly, I find it more enjoyable beating people who think BP is broken and watching them rant as they call hax. I still stand by the fact that the tier is incredibly balanced at the moment, and the one thing making this tier not fun would be speed ties everywhere, but that's just a part of the tier itself.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

It's a strat; some people will start using it, most people won't. When someone misplays and lets a Baton Pass user setup, that's not the fault of the Baton Pass user. If someone's is being deterred from LC because of a lack of good teambuilding then that's not really Baton Pass's fault. Baton Pass just emphasizes how balanced the tier is at the moment in that every team archetype has viable means of taking it down while not being forced into using niches.

4) If there is a Baton Pass nerf, how exactly are we nerfing it?

There's no real point in a nerf since any nerf only ends up helping the archetype. BP chains are still viable, but it is so much better when it's not forced into a FullPass team. Making a ruling that forces people into better teams is probably more suspect worthy itself. If for example there already is a ruling that limits BP to three Pokemon, I would probably nominate that ruling to be suspected so that it would be absolved.


Also just some other things to note about Baton Pass. One of the main reasons why FullPass teams aren't broken and why BP chains using less Pokemon are better is namely because of a thing called Team Preview. As many have stated before, Team Preview make it entirely visible whether a team is or is not a FullPass team. If you see a FullPass team, then you can obviously plan for it. A non FullPass BP team can be more deadly only because it doesn't catch your eye immediately and can take you by surprise during the battle. The chain doesn't even need Torchic, just a small SD/CM Mienfoo Pass can do work with another BP user. Now if we eliminated Team Preview, then I might actually agree to a BP nerf since if you use the wrong lead, then you might get into trouble. A Torchic vs maybe like Dwebble at Turn 1 could quite possibly cost the Dwebble user the match. It's not a guarantee as most teams have a way to deal with BP, but the reason people can play against BP teams as well as they can is the formulaic nature of said teams along with the ability to plan out your strategy against it.


TL;DR: FullPass isn't broken since most if not all team archetypes can afford viable means of dealing with it. Team Preview is also a thing meaning you can actually plan out what you should lead with rather than get screwed by letting a BP chain setup Turn 1 thanks to sending in the wrong lead.

Edit: Huh first and 100th post for Smogon all have to do with LC Suspects.

 

[Berks]

So, obviously we've established that full BP chains are kinda garbage. Have we taken into consideration shorter, less strict chains? In my experience, using shorter chains with fewer boosts is better by far than one full chain, because:

• it can give you two or even three chances to set up to good stats as opposed to the mind-boggling once in a lifetime stats of full chains
• fewer bp'ers gives you more room to check the things that beat bp
• brings in versatility and unpredictability
• like Sae Sae said above me, you may not be fully aware you're playing bp

I think we should test out shortpass the same way we've tested fullpass to see if it's any better or more banworthy as a way to move out of the repetition we've encountered

 

[absdaddy]

So, obviously we've established that full BP chains are kinda garbage. Have we taken into consideration shorter, less strict chains? In my experience, using shorter chains with fewer boosts is better by far than one full chain, because:

• it can give you two or even three chances to set up to good stats as opposed to the mind-boggling once in a lifetime stats of full chains
• fewer bp'ers gives you more room to check the things that beat bp
• brings in versatility and unpredictability
• like Sae Sae said above me, you may not be fully aware you're playing bp

I think we should test out shortpass the same way we've tested fullpass to see if it's any better or more banworthy as a way to move out of the repetition we've encountered

do the community a favour and go back where you came from, quickpass is indeed strong but you must be really poor as a player to even consider it test-worthy.
that is all

 

[Pikasohn]

so basically tl;dr, people started using bp, people who didn't have counters got beat, people who did won? Sounds balanced.

Z: It may sound rly balanced but imo it's a pretty sad. This means that we'll always have to carry some kinda solution for BP, and eventually creating restrictions in teambuilding. BP may be 'balanced' but that balance is made under condition of teams experiencing some sort of disadvantage in any way... Of course it's the right thing to always carry a counter against threats, but BP is an uncommon and special case. I rly don't like the idea of suffering under BP fear while teambuilding. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of extreme teams that have nothing against it. Many strats such as sticky web, which is very annoying as well, always have a plan B solution even if you didn't carry on a mon as a counter. But BP... I'm not so sure, will we be able to stop it without bringing a check?

 

[eden]

1) Is Baton Pass broken?
Its not broken per se but its a pain to play against, but it can be broken pretty easily if you play right. Phazing especially gets on BP's nerves. And obviously no one good has or ever will use it in a competitve setting so eh.

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?

Not really I hardly see it enough to really make a difference. And ignoring that stuff like Fletchinder that gets around BP is so common now. But in spite of it not being broken we don't want it to eventually come to a situation like OU where Geopass can be spammed for easy wins, so I think there should a nerf. Again to be honest BP teams just crumble if you know what you're doing, so even if there isn't a ban,meh. I would have much preferred an Abra suspect to be honest.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
Not really. People come to LC to avoid the other metagames which frankly sometimes feel quite stale. And BP is one of the most irritating things about other tiers, but that in and of itself doesn't deter people form playing this metagame.

4) If there is a Baton Pass ban, what exactly are we banning?
Maybe nerf it to a few users per team.

 

[Celestavian]

fatty pretty much summed up why I myself haven't posted yet, but also because ironically, even though it is apparently enough of a problem to be made suspect, I don't feel like I have enough experience with Baton Pass to make an informed judgment about it. After all, in my ~70 suspect ladder games, I saw any form of Baton Pass I think twice, and both times it was ineffective. I've also never used it since it seems way too hit-or-miss for me. Oh well...

1) Is Baton Pass broken?

In my limited experience, no. I have legit never faced a full BP team used by someone over 1200 ELO, so I'm going to disregard that because all I have to say about it from those kinds of players is that full BP sucks. I've never fought someone competent using full BP (I wonder why) so that's my opinion on that. Instead I will focus on the more consistent yet still easy to beat Torchic Quickpass. Specifically, I'm talking about when a Torchic user passes Swords Dance, Curse, or Substitute along with any accumulated Speed Boosts to a sweeper Pokemon. The main problem with Quickpass that I've seen is that it is very vulnerable on the turn that Torchic uses Baton Pass. It's rather easy to tell when it will do so, and as long as you keep its Substitute down, you can hit the switch-in with any number of status effects, or Knock Off, or an unexpected super-effective coverage move. Any U-turn or Volt Switch Pokemon knows that being faster than your opponent when using a switching move is a risky proposition indeed, and this is definitely the easiest part of the pass to interrupt it at. Torchic can invest in its bulk and Speed and with Eviolite or something it isn't that frail, but you can pretty much guarantee the sweeper it's passing to is unless it's passing to something like Timburr. Torchic is also offensively inert during its setup period, since the only offensive move it usually runs is Flamethrower or Fire Blast and even then its not usually invested. If it attacks, that's also another turn spent not setting up boosts or a Substitute in exchange for a bit of damage. It also is pretty much forced to run Protect, which gives you a free turn to set up in its face. Taunt and Encore mess it up like everyone says, but I've never needed that to actually beat Torchic. Finally, any Special Attacker can take advantage of the Curse set by targeting its unboosted Special Defense, and since it is pretty much certain that set is not running any attacking move, you can even use stuff like Magnemite or Bellsprout to beat it. There are way too many checks to Torchic pass that it is impossible for me to believe that it is broken. Full BP, like I said, I'm disregarding since I've never fought a serious team with it.

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?

Collecting freelo is always fun.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring people from playing Little Cup?

I've heard quite a few reasons why people don't play Little Cup. I've heard that Speed ties are a big problem, I've heard that the metagame is stale, and I've heard "lel LC is fkn gay what a shit tier :^)". I have never heard anyone say that they don't play Little Cup because Baton Pass is making the tier unplayable.

 

[Yagura]

Fletchling does not care about Speed boosts.

I don't know why you'd say that as I didn't imply that it cares about the boosts (but it cares about not getting burned but let's not discuss that thing all over again), what I meant is that it can boost against the other Pokémon in the metagame not Fletchling.