Stantler (Update)

[Flashrider57]

hhjj's thread is located here. I've made some changes to it:
- Removed the Gravity sets. I kinda like his "Grounded Reindeer" set, but I decided that Stantler in general was not the best choice for Gravity
- Added Parafusion set. Many people stated that this was Stantler's best set, and I found that they were right
- Expanded on Overview and Other options

QC Approvals (2/2): (Bluewind) (Bad Ass)
QC Rejections(0/2):
------------------------------------------------

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/stantler
[Overview]
- Seemingly outclassed by Kangaskhan and Tauros, who do much better on offense and are bulkier
- Stantler's good Attack stat and good options allow it to be a potent offensive force
- Great user of Parafusion, thanks to good offenses and Intimidate
- Diverse movepool allows Stantler to effectively mess with opponents

[SET]
name: All-Out Attacker
move 1: Return
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Sucker Punch / Bite
move 4: Megahorn / Bite
item: Life Orb / Choice Band
ability: Intimidate
nature: Jolly
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on-site:
- Makes good use of Stantler's base Attack stat
- Diverse movepool makes it hard to switch in most counters

Additional comments:
- Return is a great STAB move, Earthquake destroys Rock- and Steel-types, and Sucker Punch allows it to hurt faster attackers
- Megahorn deals with bulky Grass-types like Leafeon
- Bite can be used over Megahorn or Sucker Punch to reliably hurt Ghost-types
- Choice Band can be used over Life Orb for more power in exchange for being locked into one move

Teammates and Counters:
- Weezing can switch into opposing Fighting-types and cripple them; unfortunately, its high Defense and Will-O-Wisp also make it a good counter as well
- Venusaur can switch into Fighting-types, and can weaken opposition with Sleep Powder and attacking options
- Mismagius can switch into Return and Earthquake, and can set up a Sub or cripple with Will-O-Wisp

[SET]
name: Parafusion
move 1: Thunder Wave
move 2: Confuse Ray
move 3: Return / Headbutt
move 4: Earthquake / Bite
item: Leftovers
ability: Intimidate
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on-site:
- Effective user of the Parafusion strategy
- Intimidate reduces effectiveness of physical attackers hoping to defeat Stantler
- Good Attack stat allows it to inflict damage with Return and Earthquake

Additional Comments:
- Headbutt has a decent Flinch rate, and can be used over Return
- Bite can be used over Earthquake to hit Ghosts that would otherwise wall it
- Body Slam can be used over Thunder Wave or Return as a good STAB move with a nice chance at paralysing, but make sure to use Bite when doing so, in order to not get walled by Ghost-types

Teammates & Counters:
- Alakazam and Mismagius appreciate Stantler's ability to weaken an opposing team
- Mismagius and Rotom threaten this set if they switch into a Return or Earthquake
- Donphan is immune to Thunder Wave, has a high Defense stat, and threatens with STAB Earthquake

[SET]
name: Rudolph Doesn't Need to Fly
move 1: Gravity
move 2: Hypnosis
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Return
item: Life Orb
ability: Intimidate
nature: Jolly
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on-site:
- Stantler makes a good user of Gravity
- Intimidate weakens potential counters, such as Hitmontop

Additional Comments:
- Return hits hard off of Stantler's Attack stat
- Earthquake has perfect coverage alongside Return *in Gravity*
- Hypnosis becomes more accurate under Gravity

Teammates and Counters:
- Donphan has a high Defense stat, and threatens many Pokemon with STAB Earthquake (and potentially Head Smash)
- Torterra is very bulky, and it appreciates Gravity support
- Mismagius is immune to Return, and Will-O-Wisp becomes 100% accurate in Gravity


Team Options:
- Mismagius appreciates Stantler's abilities to lure in Fighting-type moves and to weaken an opposing team
- Blaziken loves to defeat opponents weakened by Parafusion and Stantler's attacks
- Venusaur can switch into Fighting-type moves and defeat a crippled opposition

Optional Changes:
- Bounce
- Other physical options: Double-Edge and Zen Headbutt
- Special Options: Charge Beam, Energy Ball, Hidden Power, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Signal Beam, Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind set
- Me First
- Other Support options: Magic Coat, Roar, Status set, Weather Support, Trick Room

Counters:
- Fighting-types like Hitmonlee still threaten Stantler, even after an Intimidate
- Hitmontop often has Intimidate, and it threatens to kill Stantler with Close Combat
- Spiritomb is bulky, does not mind Thunder Wave, and can set up easily in Stantler's face

 

[Plusle]

Seriously Headbutt is outclassed by Return. You need the extra power.

 

[Flashrider57]

The flinch chance has helped me out in a couple spots, but in general I have to agree with you, and I was debating about taking it off. I'll wait to see other peoples' responses, though, before I make my final decision.

 

[EonADS]

Leave Headbutt, it's useful because it ups the chance of your opponent not moving from 62.5% to 81.25%. 80% Chance of no damage? I'd take those odds any day.

Mention that if you use Body Slam over Return/Headbutt, you can also use Bite over T-Wave, but it's not recommended.

 

[YaM]

Leave Headbutt in, secondary slash is fine. Do mention the percentages of opponent attacking that Eon mentioned.

I'm not sure why you removed the Gravity sets... I would leave one or both in. They are kind of unique to Stantler and also there are few if any Gravity sets online so why not show Gravity some love? To quote Flare, it's a freaking wormadam stantler, it's not as if we're pressed for space here.

 

[Bluewind]

I just wanted to warn you that one of those percentages is wrong. Because Headbutt has a 30% flinch rate, your opponent's odds of getting a hit in is 5/10 (confusion) x 3/4 (paralysis) x 7/10 (flinch) = 26.25%; thus the ones of him doing nothing at all is 73.75%. Anyways, I think this should have a CB set, just because Stantler's attack doesn't suck that much and being outclasssed by Tauros isn't really important. Will test the rest asap.

 

[Oglemi]

OK, here's what I was thinking.

- Put back Grounded Reindeer set.

- Add CB set

[SET]
name: Deer of Choice
move 1: Return
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Megahorn
move 4: Zen Headbutt
item: Choice Band
ability: Intimidate
nature: Jolly
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

- note: Stantler needs max speed here to outpace other base 80s and nail them

- Instead of a second Gravity set, add a Trick Room set. Stantler is really unique in this aspect with Intimidate and an Attack stat to scare shit.

[SET]
name: Trick Room
move 1: Trick Room
move 2: Return
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Hypnosis / Reflect / Light Screen
item: Leftovers / Light Clay
ability: Intimidate
nature: Relaxed
evs: 200 HP / 56 Atk / 252 Def
ivs: 0 Spe

185 Speed is still kind of fast for Trick Room, but it's slower than Uxie.

 

[Flashrider57]

Added in your suggestions, Oglemi.

 

[Flashrider57]

Bump...

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

You could make a small mention of a speed lowering item, like the Brace for the TR set. I'd still go with Light Clay though. Mention that it should be used with guys who'll take advantage of it.

 

[Flashrider57]

Applied the changes.

 

[Flashrider57]

Bump...

 

[Bluewind]

Sorry for taking long.

Ok, first, I'd change the Choice Band set a bit. First, make Life Orb the primary slash, as Stantler can actually pull off a better sweep when it's able to abuse Sucker Punch and change attacks than when using a CB. I'd put this:

name: All-Out Attacker
move 1: Return
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Sucker Punch / Bite
move 4: Megahorn / Bite
item: Life Orb / Choice Band
ability: Intimidate
nature: Jolly
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

Zen Headbutt is actually pretty underhwelming if you asked me. The only thing it does is allow you to hit stuff like Weezing for 7 more BP than Return, having to risk a miss and not hitting switch-ins harder. Megahorn hits Ghosts for only 3/4th of the damage, but allows you to break Rotom's and Mismagius's Substitutes (no defensive investment) and allows you to break through bulkier walls like Tangrowth, Exeggutor and Torterra more easily. Bite is pretty underwhelming, and not really needed when you have Sucker Punch and Megahorn to put Ghost-types on a bad position, but is a nice option over Sucker Punch if you're running CB / if you're against a bulkier and slower Ghost-type.

Grounded Reindeer and Parafusion look good to me.

I'm leaning towards rejecting the Trick Room set though. Even with all that investment, Stantler's bulk is still a huge failure, even after Intimidate (337 / 176 / 229 defenses is pretty bad when you consider it has invested so much on them...); it has a hard time setting it up so that it can support its teammates; cannot switch in safely into much (its only resistance is to Ghost-type attacks, which will mostly just hit you with HP Fighting subsequently, and Stantler can't hit those with Levitate at all) and many of Stantler common counters will actually outspeed it under Trick Room. If you think the Trick Room set should be kept feel free to weigh in, but I really find that set underwhelming.

Finally, regarding the order of sets, I'd make it Physical Attacker > Parafusion > Grounded Reindeer (I really wish we could call one of the sets Rudolph...). Once I hear other opinions about the TR set I'll come back and stamp it.

 

[Flashrider57]

Made Bluewind's changes, and I'll wait for people to decide about the Trick Room set.

Also, I thought about Bluewind's idea about "Rudolph", and an idea that I came up with was changing "Grounded Reindeer" to "Rudolph Doesn't Need to Fly". I know that it sounds a little weird, but it is a way to put in Rudolph. What do you guys think?

 

[Oglemi]

I like it, do it.

Yeah, after messing around with the Trick Room it was pretty underwhelming. It isn't as physically frail as Bluewind made it out to be, but it's still lackluster. And like I said, he's too fast for Trick Room.

Edit to below: You betcha.

 

[Flashrider57]

Moved Trick Room to OC. Also, I'm assuming you said "yes" about the name change for the Gravity set?

 

[Bluewind]

 

[Flashrider57]

Thanks, Bluewind! Any other ideas?

 

[Bad Ass]

 

[Flashrider57]

Due to computer and health problems, I need someone to write this up for me. Thanks!

 

[Farewell]

I will since I wrote the original one... but I will only do it for the Gravity set I did, since I only need to re-copy and paste it... I did make a few edits, like adding the Other Options, however, I made sure to include Thunder and Megahorn, since they gain an accuracy boost and gain coverage.

[Overview]
<p> Most people note Stantler as a weaker Tauros, however, Stantler's wide move pool coupled with decent mixed offenses, allow it to fill certain niches within the UU tier that Tauros wish it had, such as fitting into Gravity, and Trick Room teams, spreading Paralysis, and overall providing something for everyone.</p>

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/stantler

[SET]

name: Grounded Reindeer
move 1: Gravity
move 2: Hypnosis / Megahorn / Thunder
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Return
item: Life Orb
nature: Jolly / Naive
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

Set Comments
<p>Beyond just the obvious Intimidate support, Stantler can work as a lead due to its decent speed, power, and unpredictability; chances are your foe hasn't faced a Stantler. Counters like Rhyperior need to watch out for Energy Ball, enemy Claydol coming in to Rapid Spin away your entry hazards must be wary of a powerful Megahorn, as must Torterra, Exeggutor, or Psychic types like Uxie. Beyond unpredictability, this set flourishes with what it uses- Gravity. Suddenly Earthquake can hit Rotom, Moltres, and Weezing, now Thunder can handle threats like Poliwrath, Swellow, and Cloyster, and most importantly Hypnosis can be used with precise accuracy. With Gravity, Stantler becomes an offensive, supportive, and even defensive team player with a wide array of options available.</p>

Additional Comments
<p>A Jolly Nature and 252 Speed EVs will let Stantler tie with Nidoking, Toxicroak, outpace Modest Moltres and Rotom [hindered by Gravity], and 95 base Speeders like Arcanine. Max Attack is for high damage output, with the remaining 4 EVs in either Defense or Special Attack depending on your choice for the second move slot. Energy Ball, and Psychic, are both other options to take out Rhyperior, Kabutops, Omastar, Venemoth, Weezing, Venasaur, etc. Thunderwave could also be an option in slot 2 if one doesn't want to rely on Thunder's 30% paralysis chance, although it would be a shame not to abuse Gravity's accuracy boosting effects for Hypnosis or a better coverage attack, and honestly it is better used in the support set.</p>

Teammates and Counters
<p>Since Gravity naturally encourages Earthquake and entry hazard users, Pokemon like Nidoqueen, who have access to STAB Earthquake, Toxic Spikes, and handy fighting resistances work well with Stantler. Earthquake sweepers like Dugtrio also work well as not only does Earthquake hit all foes, but now Arena Trap affects all Pokemon as well, ensuring you can trap, and KO a foe. Keep in mind, Stantler's Gravity also boosts any inaccurate moves such as Fire Blast, & Stone Edge, ensuring support is mutual. Other entry hazard users like Qwilfish can add to the fighting resist roster while being able to Explode on immediate threats. Drapion also pairs well because it not only sets up Toxic Spikes, but it can Whirlwind foes away to spread entry hazard damage, and it can threaten foes like Taunt Mismagius with Dark STAB moves.

Teammates and Counters
<p>Rapid Spinners like Claydol can also Explode, take advantage of its STAB Earthquake / Earth Power, and handle fighting type attacks with its sturdy defenses, especially after taking Stantler's Intimidate into account.
Finally, due to Gravity encouraging the use of entry hazards like Spikes, and Toxic Spikes, a Ghost type like Rotom would be a great ally, not only because it blocks Rapid Spin, but also because it can block Fighting-type moves from the likes of Hitmontop, and Poliwrath, that counter Stantler and threaten them back with either a W-o-w or Thunder, both of which are further backed by Gravity's accuracy boost. Additionally, when Gravity is not in effect, Rotom can take advantage of Levitate, allowing it to play on both highly-focused Gravity teams, and teams that have just one or two users of it.</p>

<p>Counters include those with a powerful Fighting move, although Intimidate does help to mitigate physical damage. A Fighting type like Primeape is a prime example of a counter, as speed, Vital Spirit, and typing allow it to come in on Gravity and Megahorn or Hypnosis easily. Fast Taunt leads like Mismagius and Ambipom can stop Stantler from using Gravity (and Hypnosis) or just directly attack Stantler. Mismagious is especially noteworthy as without Gravity it is immune to both Stantler's Return and Earthquake. Mach Punch Technitop, and Nasty Plot Toxicroak with Vacuum Wave counter Stantler as well, but both must be wary of switching into Hypnosis and Earthquake respectively.</p>

Other Options:
<p> Super Effective moves like Energy Ball, or backed by Life Orb can be used against 4x weak foes like Rhyperior, Omastar, Gastrodon, Quagsire, Kabutops, Relincath, especially since it doesn't rely on Gravity being used first, and can surprise many opponents expecting a physical Stantler. It may be hard to find many more options for Stantler, as it just doesn't have the Defenses or stats to pull much else off, although one could try Double-Edge over Return for direct power, and to many Stantler KO itself after using Gravity for a safer switch-in to your Gravity abuser.</p>

 

[Komodo]

I'm going to take over this analysis and get it through the GP checking stage. I'll take into account hhjj's writing as well.

 

[Oglemi]

Moving.