Stall in BW2

[Princess Bubblegum]

Perhaps this question is coming from the side of ignorance on altaria, but fuck it.

What does Altaria have over a defensive dragonite? Dragonite has better stats all around, much more attack, the same moves + dragon tail. What does this do outside of taking on specs keldeo better?

Edit: Bri mind sharing?

 

[dice]

Speaking of Sun, the best stall team I've used so far in BW2 is definitely sun stall. It is a very linear team archetype, but Sableye in Sun is cannot be spun on while Cresselia is a very anti-metagame Pokemon atm walling a fuckton of teams.

 

[DrunkDemon]

Altaria's bulk is quite impressive factoring in Cloud Nine, turning a lot of 2HKOs into 3HKOs. In a vacuum this doesn't matter against set-up sweepers since Dragonite phazes anyway, but long run this helps Altaria against threats switching in multiple times.

EDIT: Again, factoring in Cloud Nine reducing weather-boosted attacks. This will make Altaria take less damage than Dragonite against weather boosted attacks, and is much more reliable than Multiscale. It does take significantly less damage from Water and Fire-type attacks under weather than Dragonite, and as I said, that can help when it comes to getting worn down over the course of a match. I don't think it works over Dragonite all the time, or even most of the time, but depending on how Rain and Sun weak your team is I think it can work.

 

[ginganinja]

Why wouldn't I use Dragonite, which iirc, can do everything your set listed, but swaps Cloud Nine for MultiScale?

ninjaed slightly but didn't really see an answer

 

[dice]

how does altaria have more bulk if it doesn't have multiscale and less overall bulk .-.

 

[X5Dragon]

I've seen stall teams in the top 10 of this meta's ladder and being an exclusively HO player I can sort of help this thread.

Stall teams don't need more than SR as far as hazards are concerned, you might have had a better time stacking at different metas but as a hazard that hit's everything and neutrally stikes most vol-turn cores, it should be enough.

Also, bulky ghosts, use them. Starmie, the tiers best spinner atm is helpless against Dusclops for example, and can only do so and so against Jellicent.

And while yes the meta has added a ton of batshit insane mons that get boosts and 100%, 120 BP STAB moves without actually doing anything, you did get perfectly stallish mons in Amoongus. In fact Amoongus and Chansey/Blissey are a very good core, seeing how most Mamo's fail to hurt a defensive moon without packing a CB Icicle Crash and the Pink Blobs laughing at most of the tier's special attackers. If Keledo bothers you so much, you can phaze or use Jellicent.

Every single teamstyle has evolved and adapted, it's time for stall to do the same.

 

[Arcticblast]

Wouldn't Cofagrigus do everything Dusclops does (spinblock, have low HP and godly defenses, spread status) better? Mummy is an awesome ability and Cofagrigus can actually use its Special Attack stat, as well as being a viable Trick Room setter to throw off HO teams.

 

[EtherDrive]

ever thought about bringing Safeguard/Aromatherapy/Heal Bell back into the meta?

 

[alkinesthetase]

ever thought about bringing Safeguard/Aromatherapy/Heal Bell back into the meta?

short answer: yes we'd love to, but if it was that easy, they'd be much more common already

any team would love to carry a cleric if it had room lol. you have precisely two OU options, however: celebi or pink blob. there's a reason why most of the other choices are lower tiers, eg roserade, lanturn, miltank, lilligant, shaymin. having to find room to fit one of these onto a team is quite strangling in and of itself.

in addition, the two OU users (blobs/celebi) are EXTREMELY moveslot cramped on defensive sets. in addition to a damaging move (giga drain/seismic toss) and their recovery (softboiled or wish/recover), they have a broad selection of support moves, only a few of which they can carry. cleric support is often the easiest to throw away out of all those slots, since they need the slots just to protect themselves (protect for wishblobs, twave to prevent being set up on, toxic to stall, perish song because fuck BP). where does the heal bell fit in? the answer is that it does not. that's why they're so rare... even on stall.



oh and while i'm here: there are really only a few defensive ghosts worth running; fitting them in is easier said than done. jellicent is legit, but bieng water type means that it type stacks horribly with any other bulky water (eg tentacruel). sableye is precise in its utility, but pretty much pointless outside it - lacking in bulk means it's generally only useful to spinblock or stallbreak (i am painting a very negative picture here, but tbh sableye is awesome, use that shit it's good). cofagrigus ... ehhh, no reliable recovery makes it tough in the long game because pain split really sucks. same with dusclops except even more so.

interesting on altaria, although i am kind of agreeing that any defensively invested dragonite with subroost will be bulkier (subroosts tend to be the nites that abuse multiscale most infuriatingly of all). both of them are fairly G-weak though which is often of capital concern T_T i generally use latias (it is my favorite mon evar) since i don't wanna be trying to squeeze in more than one dragon on a defensive team.

 

[Honus]

I think stall is still viable, but I consider offense the superior playstyle. Back in BW1, I had a pretty cool Rain Stall team that I had a lot of success with; I could check almost every individual threats except for a few, and handle the tandems just by playing smart and not letting my opponent get the upper hand. I just don't see that in BW2; that same team would get mowed down by Genies+Hazards and/or Keldeo. I've heard people have success with full stall; and I'm aware there are people having success with stall in BW2, but there's no way that they can handle every threat, better yet the major ones [at least we had stuff like gliscor and tangrowth that could at least handle terrakion in bw1]. I just feel like there are a lot of ways that stall can be broken easily, and a lot of teams can be forced into taking risks so that stuff like RP Landorus/Genesect can't set up and start wrecking; basically my general opinion is that stall isn't held together as well in BW2 and sort of checks certain threats in a haphazard way. While it's still viable, stall definitely isn't as effective as it used to be. Additionally, "stall tools" like Jellicent and Amoongus have always seemed kind of picayune [vocab word here we go] and insignificant to me. Sure it's cool to have a Keldeo/Loom counter with Regenerator and Spore and a decent spinblock, but what stall really needs in my opinion would be a hard answer to the shit like Terrakion, Salamence, Genies so that the opponent really has to outplay you decisively for them to break your stall, which is how I saw it in BW1.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Dam I lied, I got lazy and didn't do anything...

Ive used cofag in this meta, its pretty good but not exactly great stall material. Why? it has a shit recovery plan, you are left with pain split or rest, I know doughboy loves pain split to the cows come home, but honestly, rest is the only way you are getting your health back up. You are honestly much better packing a cleric than using pain split in my humble opinion. Also Dusclops has some perks on a stall team, although it does overlap with Confagrigus I admit. Dusclops bulk is crazy sexy though, its literally the only pokemon that I know of that can take any move from Cb dragonite with ease.

On a cleric, they can be used, but you have to have a reason for them. For example if you are using a pokemon or two with rest, it is an option to consider. Otherwise there are generally better options. As alkin said Chansey / Blissey are usually packed for slots, but if you can fit a Roserade on your team, usually it can have the extra slot for aroma therapy.

Also, every stall team NEEDS spikes, I have tried to run with without them, don't do it. Sure against offensive teams all you need is rocks, but against any sort of balanced them, you will be wishing you had spikes.

 

[Lady Alex]

@x5dragon- Cofagrigus really isn't effective in stall. Because it doesn't have reliable recovery, it's unable to deal with starmie in the rain, being 2hko'd even if it runs 252/252. Dusclops is in a similar situation, only having a small chance to avoid being 2hko'd in the rain (this is assuming leftovers starmie, btw). They're also both going to lose to Tentacruel more often than not (barring maybe a calm mind cofagrigus, which isn't all that great. In all of my ladder runs, I've yet to see any successful stall teams that are able to adequately check all the HO that's currently running around. Please share the stall teams you're talking about. I would really like to know what they're running.

 

[Masamune]

Perhaps this question is coming from the side of ignorance on altaria, but fuck it.

What does Altaria have over a defensive dragonite? Dragonite has better stats all around, much more attack, the same moves + dragon tail. What does this do outside of taking on specs keldeo better?

Edit: Bri mind sharing?

Heal Bell + Multiscale is an illegal combo on Dragonite (HB is from XD), for what it's worth.

Altaria fits nice and snug into my team, being able to counter weather, roar and act as a cleric at the same time. Definitely underrated.

 

[lokt]

I've found rest talk heal bell lantern to be good on stall. It provides heal bell support, and counters tornadus-t and thundurus-t. It also absorbs volt switch.

 

[EtherDrive]

I've found rest talk heal bell lantern to be good on stall. It provides heal bell support, and counters tornadus-t and thundurus-t. It also absorbs volt switch.

and runs volt switch itself but I think what people are looking for are more genuine (lets take 50+ turns to win this) stall mons rather than a support mon like alk said. Not to mention its not taking too much from the physical side of the spectrum

 

[alkinesthetase]

tbh i was actually considering lanturn and have seen it used successfully as a restalker. it has deceptive bulk and is like sdef rotom-W, except it's a more solid thundurus-T check. main problem is its annoying ground weakness which stacks poorly with the premier defensive spinner in the game, again tentacruel. volt absorb + water/electric is honestly a really solid typing except for that one ground weakness

 

[Spaniard]

I think that the current metagame makes it extremely hard to find time to lay entry hazards and/or rapid spin. Pulling out a set up clean sweep is hard too. So yeah, BW2 is a metagame of poking, priority, revenge killing, and predicting like a maniac.

Actually mistakes are punished very hard and the game can be won in one or two smart plays.

On the other hand, stall cores are still difficult to take down. Stall can still work (I've faced top playes using stall) but you have to accept that you'll have to take risks and predict anyway. I'd say that stall teams need to be designed with extra care as you can no longer play the boring, risk-averse way we would in previous gens.

 

[Lady Alex]

People keep saying they've played top players using stall, but I've made several ladder runs and have seen teams at the lower end of the ladder as well as the very top end of the ladder, but I haven't seen any stall teams in the upper part of the ladder at all. I've seen some teams that are more defensively oriented than most teams nowadays, but they weren't stall by any means. Please share your experience with these stall teams in detail, as I've yet to face any stall teams that are consistent and aren't extremely match-up dependent.

Stall has always involved risk. It's 100% false for you to say that stall has been a "risk-averse" playstyle. in 4th gen, especially pre-salamence ban, that was a threat you had to constantly worry about with a stall team to deal with it as soon as possible. Mixed sally was (and still is) very dangerous for stall and making predictions in order to deal with it was crucial. Stall also has to worry more than offensive teams about keeping all/most of its pokemon alive, since it can't plan for a late game sweep with a life orb SD lucario or something of that nature. If stall teams make a poor prediction and lose an important wall, it could very well be gg.

 

[alkinesthetase]

fucking thank you lady alex, stall has never been a risk free style or, to take a word out of the page of shitty ygo players, "autopilot". the only people who think that are the ones who are getting hard walled in the dpp era and thinking "fucking stall omg so easy takes no skill". i could say the same thing about offense "omg fucking terrakion clicks close combat shit dies so easy takes no skill" but obviously i'm wrong. same thing goes for stall

i could elaborate but a superior player already did so for me an entire generation ago http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41798

 

[Spaniard]

@Lady alex

There are top ladder players playing pure stall. Let me give you an example valid to this date: yoshi. He's somewhere in the 2150ish in the top 5 using solely stall.

And don't get me wrong. I don't mean that stall is autopilot and risk free. I've played stall many times in high elo and I'm aware that there are huge threats that can sweep you in a blink. What I mean is that in the past, you didn't have to go suicide all in with stall to win very often. I'm known to make big plays and gamble a lot, and what I meant is that nowadays (when playing stall), to get an edge against a 1900+ player you have to do very ballsy things such as keeping a ferrothorn vs a heatran if you expect them to stealth rock, whirlwinding with skarmory a thundurus that you expect to sub and things in that vein.

edit:

just to clarify, risk averse =/= risk free

 

[Lady Alex]

@Lady alex

There are top ladder players playing pure stall. Let me give you an example valid to this date: yoshi. He's somewhere in the 2150ish in the top 5 using solely stall.

And don't get me wrong. I don't mean that stall is autopilot and risk free. I've played stall many times in high elo and I'm aware that there are huge threats that can sweep you in a blink. What I mean is that in the past, you didn't have to go suicide all in with stall to win very often. I'm known to make big plays and gamble a lot, and what I meant is that nowadays (when playing stall), to get an edge against a 1900+ player you have to do very ballsy things such as keeping a ferrothorn vs a heatran if you expect them to stealth rock, whirlwinding with skarmory a thundurus that you expect to sub and things in that vein.

edit:

just to clarify, risk averse =/= risk free

You're not saying anything that players don't already know. Keeping Ferrothorn in on Heatran expecting a stealth rock isn't anything new.
Even now, if you're going "suicide all in" with stall, you're not doing it right. You still haven't given any details as to what stall teams you've seen high up in the ladder, either.

just to clarify, risk averse =/= risk free

That statement is ignorant. You implied that stall was a less "risky" playstyle than offense. I explained that that simply isn't true. I'm not saying you said stall was "risk free," but I'm telling you that stall isn't any less prone to having to make strategic risks than offensive teams are.

 

[Spaniard]

I know it doesn't take a genius to realize such plays, but I believe that you have to go suicide with stall to win (at high level). If you don't, offensive teams have enough tools to prevent you from setting up (hence stall is not popular anymore). While you could go super risk averse in previous generations with stall and win most of the time.

About the top players playing stall. I'm deliverately not giving away such teams because I've got no rigth to do so. If you're really interested talk to them. Find yoshi and ask him, he's steamrolling with stall at the moment.


And you keep getting me wrong. I NEVER said stall is less risky than offense. Let's keep it simple. Neither stall nor offense are risk free. Being risk averse has to do with the player, and it can go with any playstyle (yeah you can be risk averse in offensive too). Note that I didn't say that being risk averse is good, lot of players lose for doing that. Now what I said, and that is a fact, is that previously, stall encouraged being risk averse, as threats could be covered much better than now and you had enough oportunities to set up, inflict status etc. Passive play is highly punished nowadays (offensive mons pack a lot of punch in BW2) and that's why you are forced to go high risk high reward more often nowadays.

Lastly, if you don't agree with me that's one thing, but I feel you have an urge to subtly insult me for that. I don't really feel like arguing with you.

 

[Lady Alex]

1. I know it doesn't take a genius to realize such plays, but I believe that you have to go suicide with stall to win (at high level). If you don't, offensive teams have enough tools to prevent you from setting up (hence stall is not popular anymore). While you could go super risk averse in previous generations with stall and win most of the time.

2. About the top players playing stall. I'm deliverately not giving away such teams because I've got no rigth to do so. If you're really interested talk to them. Find yoshi and ask him, he's steamrolling with stall at the moment.


3. And you keep getting me wrong. I NEVER said stall is less risky than offense. Let's keep it simple. Neither stall nor offense are risk free. Being risk averse has to do with the player, and it can go with any playstyle (yeah you can be risk averse in offensive too). Note that I didn't say that being risk averse is good, lot of players lose for doing that. Now what I said, and that is a fact, is that previously, stall encouraged being risk averse, as threats could be covered much better than now and you had enough oportunities to set up, inflict status etc. Passive play is highly punished nowadays (offensive mons pack a lot of punch in BW2) and that's why you are forced to go high risk high reward more often nowadays.

4. Lastly, if you don't agree with me that's one thing, but I feel you have an urge to subtly insult me for that. I don't really feel like arguing with you.

1. Every player, regardless of what playstyle they play, has to take on some level of risk in order to succeed. The key to winning is to not take on unnecessary risk, since you're increasing your chances of losing with only a mediocre chance at a payoff. You can't blindly take risks without thinking about your opponent's long term goals in the match. Any risk you take should be meaningful and made in a way that maximizes your potential payoff but minimizes the damage you take if your risk doesn't pay off. Would you lead with Ferrothorn against Deoxys-D, hoping they'll let you set up rocks so you can deal with your opponent's sashed cloyster asap? No, you wouldn't. That would be stupid. You say you could be "super risk averse" with stall in the past, but you still had to deal with the same issue of keeping the opponent's offensive pressure at bay. Unless one just played bad players all the time, it was just as necessary to take on risk for stall as it was for offense. Your conception about how "risk averse" stall was in the past is just wrong.

2. I can't force you to give away details of teams you've seen, but it would greatly serve the purpose of this thread.

3. Any playstyle is going to try to reduce the amount of risk it's going to take to succeed. Stall in 4th gen didn't have to take any more or less risks than offense to succeed. The problem with stall right now (and the reason the general consensus is that stall isn't viable), is that it has to take on a lot more risk only to be compensated with much less reward compared to offensive teams. In order for stall to work consistently, it needs to have similar levels of risk versus reward as offense.

4. I never insulted you. If you're referring to when I said your statement was ignorant, my goal wasn't to offend you. But I agree. I would rather put my effort toward helping stall than discussing the semantics of risk aversion with you.

 

[tehy]

Stall is less risky than offense in the sense that, as a stall player, i rely much less on checking stuff, instead countering it. On the other hand, the longer you play, the more hax comes in, and as a defensive player, hax fucks me over, not the opponent, most of the time.

 

[Joeyboy]

There are top ladder players playing pure stall. Let me give you an example valid to this date: yoshi. He's somewhere in the 2150ish in the top 5 using solely stall.

Would you happen to know his team? Not even the movesets, but I'd love to know which 6 pokemon he is running.