Metagame STABmons

[EV]

Results (ban - no ban - abstain)

Belly Drum: 3 - 0 - 1
+1×5 Z-moves: 0 - 3 - 1
Mega Aerodactyl: 2 - 1 - 1
Silvally: 0 - 3 - 1

Belly Drum is now banned. The Immortal please and thank you.

 

[Josh]

Why isn't aero banned ?_?

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

So, friendly STABmon players... we've found a god today.

Stable State (Mudsdale) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Shore Up
- Thousand Waves
- Rock Slide
- Toxic

While this is something I've thrown up for that one STABmons tourney, this is one of the keys that brought me to finals both times. ...Anyways, the goal of this set is to trap a physically inclined foe with Thousand Waves, and then stall them out. Mudsdale can take hits that it has absolutely no right to take. Actually.... one of the matches today was this stalling out a Belly Drummer! ...Even if the move was banned today.
Ideally, you'll want to pair this with something that can handle Water Spout.... like Moonlight Sap Sipper Azumarril.... which you can use to Perish Song your enemies. Actually, that's a devious stallbreaking core...

You can see that aforementioned match here: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-501181795

 

[PonStefon]

I was doing a little theorymonning about z moves and came up an idea for a gimmicky late-sweeper.

Stored Power Sweeper (Espeon) @ Normalium Z
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Celebrate
- Dazzling Gleam / HP Fire / HP Fighting
- Recover / HP Fighting

Basically one weakens the opponents dark/steel types before setting up on something passive and obliterating things with a 120 bp STAB move at +1 with no drawbacks. Dazzling Gleam and HP Fire are respectively for Dark and Steel types that are still alive but weakened, while Recover is for longevity, though you might be hard-pressed to use it.
HP Fighting could probably be run for Tyranitar, who shuts this down otherwise. Though, you probably should pair this up with a fighting type like Pheromosa or Buzzwole anyway just for that reason. (I'm not super familiar with STABmons honestly, but +1x5 Z-moves + Stored Power seemed like too good a gimmick to pass up.)

On the topic of gimmicks and z-moves, Simple seems like a fun ability to abuse. Adamant Simple Bibarel with Z-Swords Dance and Espeed, Aqua Jet, and a filler move sounds crazy as all hell. Swoobat with Z-Heal Block could also be a little surpising, with a stronger Stored Power than Espeon to boot, but it's a very niche, unpractical idea.

 

[Adonzo]

I was doing a little theorymonning about z moves and came up an idea for a gimmicky late-sweeper.

Stored Power Sweeper (Espeon) @ Normalium Z
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Celebrate
- Dazzling Gleam / HP Fire / HP Fighting
- Recover / HP Fighting

Basically one weakens the opponents dark/steel types before setting up on something passive and obliterating things with a 120 bp STAB move at +1 with no drawbacks. Dazzling Gleam and HP Fire are respectively for Dark and Steel types that are still alive but weakened, while Recover is for longevity, though you might be hard-pressed to use it.
HP Fighting could probably be run for Tyranitar, who shuts this down otherwise. Though, you probably should pair this up with a fighting type like Pheromosa or Buzzwole anyway just for that reason. (I'm not super familiar with STABmons honestly, but +1x5 Z-moves + Stored Power seemed like too good a gimmick to pass up.)

On the topic of gimmicks and z-moves, Simple seems like a fun ability to abuse. Adamant Simple Bibarel with Z-Swords Dance and Espeed, Aqua Jet, and a filler move sounds crazy as all hell. Swoobat with Z-Heal Block could also be a little surpising, with a stronger Stored Power than Espeon to boot, but it's a very niche, unpractical idea.

That's actually a cool throwback to the old Shell Smash Espeon, both being powerful one-shot sweepers. While it isn't as powerful or fast (though it's plenty fast enough at +1 at 110 Speed, it may still prefer a Naive nature to avoid fast scarfers, where SS could run Modest), it's less prone to revenge killing with +1 defenses, with a good chance of surviving a FakeSpeed from Stoutland (which Shell Smash didn't have a hope of doing), though the loss in power is noticeable - the same Stoutland can potentially switch-in on a Stored Power now in an emergency, which it had no chance of doing against Shell Smash.

Z-Celebrate
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Fake Out vs. +1 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 78-93 (28.6 - 34.1%)
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Extreme Speed vs. +1 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 154-183 (56.6 - 67.2%)
+1 252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stoutland: 322-379 (86 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Shell Smash
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 117-138 (43 - 50.7%)
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 231-273 (84.9 - 100.3%)
+2 252+ SpA Espeon Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stoutland: 549-646 (146.7 - 172.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

EDIT:

Powet Trip Sweeper (Umbreon) @ Normalium Z
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Power Trip
- Celebrate
- Extreme Speed / Iron Tail
- Recover / Extreme Speed / Iron Tail

Umbreon pulls a similar trick but with Power Trip instead. While significantly weaker and slower, Umbreon's bulk at +1 is insane for a sweeper, especially when backed with reliable recovery and flinch immunity, making him impossible to revenge kill with FakeSpeed. You need to outspeed and hit it with a powerful super-effective attack. Unfortunately, it isn't that hard to outspeed +1 base 65 Speed, and Umbreon needs all the power it can get, so it can't run Jolly. Jolly CB Terrakion, for example, can outspeed a full investment neutral Umbreon and OHKO with HJK while Umbreon can't do much to threaten it. As such, you're likely better off investing in HP instead to maximize its bulk. The same Terrakion actually has a small chance to fail to OHKO with this investment, which is ridiculous.

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Fake Out vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 48-57 (12.1 - 14.4%)
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Extreme Speed vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 94-112 (23.8 - 28.4%)
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Double-Edge vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 142-168 (36 - 42.6%)
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion High Jump Kick vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 390-458 (98.9 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Umbreon Power Trip (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 225-265 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[LorisMasta17]

While ghost and water Silvally seem to be the most prominent types, here is a set I have been using that has worked out well for me.

Silvally-Flying @ Flying Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Oblivion Wing
- Searing Shot
- Secret Sword

I wanted to use a Silvally that wasn't ghost or water because I wanted to try out something different and I already had a mon of both types on my team. I was thinking of types that had good two move coverage so I could also use a recovery move, but then I thought of this set that offers good recovery in it's main stab. Having Oblivion Wing allows me to run two coverage moves. First went with Searing Shot as I love the move, and then Secret Sword to hit rocks. Although this set works well, it is hit neutrally by fakespeed so if you end up getting weakened this can be an issue. EV spread outspeeds Phero at +1 with max special attack and the rest in hp.

 

[Tornadus-Therian]

How do people deal with Kartana + Magnezone? Or just SD + Spore + Sunsteel + Sacred Sword + LO/Sash Kartana (or SSS+SS+S+SD+S Kartana, if you will) in general? I haven't found a single defensive answer to it that doesn't rely on counter/metal burst. Mega Venusaur gets OHKO'd, Lando gets OHKO'd after rocks, A-Wak gets OHKO'd after rocks, Celesteela flat out loses to sash variants even if it runs flamethrower, M-Scizor either can't kill with superpower or gets bopped, Ferrothorn and Heatran die to obvious coverage, and everything gets spored anyways. The thing is so strong that it barely even needs STAB moves to sweep teams, since you have to be bulkier than 0/0 mega scizor and resist steel to even have a chance to avoid being 2hko'd.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 341-402 (93.9 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 316-372 (82.9 - 97.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 251-296 (77.4 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 231-273 (58 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 186-220 (55.6 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Scizor-Mega: 186-220 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 186-220 (52.5 - 62.1%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor-Mega: 123-146 (43.7 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock <- wat do.

I've run into like 8 teams that are just this + Tapu Lele + Magnezone + literally any threat spam ever and I have no idea what to do, since all my steels were just getting shredded. What are people using to combat this besides just running straight offense and sleep foddering something and then taking a massive hit every time it gets in?

 

[NyneTiNyne]

How do people deal with Kartana + Magnezone? Or just SD + Spore + Sunsteel + Sacred Sword + LO/Sash Kartana (or SSS+SS+S+SD+S Kartana, if you will) in general? I haven't found a single defensive answer to it that doesn't rely on counter/metal burst. Mega Venusaur gets OHKO'd, Lando gets OHKO'd after rocks, A-Wak gets OHKO'd after rocks, Celesteela flat out loses to sash variants even if it runs flamethrower, M-Scizor either can't kill with superpower or gets bopped, Ferrothorn and Heatran die to obvious coverage, and everything gets spored anyways. The thing is so strong that it barely even needs STAB moves to sweep teams, since you have to be bulkier than 0/0 mega scizor and resist steel to even have a chance to avoid being 2hko'd.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 341-402 (93.9 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 316-372 (82.9 - 97.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 251-296 (77.4 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 231-273 (58 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 186-220 (55.6 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Scizor-Mega: 186-220 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 186-220 (52.5 - 62.1%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor-Mega: 123-146 (43.7 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock <- wat do.

I've run into like 8 teams that are just this + Tapu Lele + Magnezone + literally any threat spam ever and I have no idea what to do, since all my steels were just getting shredded. What are people using to combat this besides just running straight offense and sleep foddering something and then taking a massive hit every time it gets in?

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kartana Power Whip vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Rotom-Heat: 270-320 (89.1 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kartana Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 287-339 (74.7 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Charizard-Mega-X: 242-285 (67.4 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

3 more mons that don't get trapped by Magnezone and are able to live the hit from Kartana (most of the time) and KO back, but not when rocks are up :(.

Kartana is very scary to face. While his STABs are both weak to Fire and Steel, this doesn't hold it back as much as it does in regular OU (where it is still very good iirc). Instead of two 70 BP moves, in STABmons it has access to Woodhammer/Power Whip and Sunsteel Strike which can plow through a lot of resists at +2. It can run Sacred Sword to get around some pesky Steel types and Spore to pretty much guarantee free set-up. It doesn't really have coverage for Fire types, but because they have to run Safety Goggles to reliably check it, they get worn down really fast by Stealth Rock and most of the times can't even switch in reliably on rocks. Steel types that are not weak to Fighting are pretty much the only good checks to it, but this really limits teambuilding. It got a hit from the Shift Gear ban but I feel it is still one of the best pokemon in STABmons, might even be worth suspecting, but I'm not really the one to say that.

 

[Boomburst]

Why isn't aero banned ?_?

it should be banned due to endless BRAVE BIRD and HEAD SMASH
And komala should too

My bibarel should have learnt TAIL GLOW,cuz you didn't ban it from using SKETCH.
Lol

Normaldium z splash bibarel is great

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

My bibarel should have learnt TAIL GLOW,cuz you didn't ban it from using SKETCH.
Lol

No, we banned Sketch from being able to be used for any purpose to avoid situations like THAT. (And combining that with Water Shuriken, disgusting)

As for Aerodactyl, Landorus-Therian can handle it, Hippowdon can handle it, and Mudsdale can handle it. There might be a few other off the wall solutions, but bulky Ground types are the main ticket defensively. Only some of them are screwed over by Ice Fang coverage.
As for Komala, just use a Scarfer or something faster than 375 Speed. Or just pressure the opponent into not setting hazards at all. It's not terrible in environments like this or Sketchmons. You can actually handle it, due to being pretty slow in comparison to something like... I don't know.. GARCHOMP. That was a terrifying sight to behold.

 

[AquaticPanic]

But seriously tho, why isn't Mega Aero banned? The vote is 2 - 1 - 1 so it should be...

 

[Boomburst]

My bibarel should have learnt TAIL GLOW,cuz you didn't ban it from using SKETCH.
Lol

But seriously tho, why isn't Mega Aero banned? The vote is 2 - 1 - 1 so it should be...

Why don't you use D-storm Rhy to kill it?

 

[dhelmise]

But seriously tho, why isn't Mega Aero banned? The vote is 2 - 1 - 1 so it should be...

I assume that they didn't use abstain as an auto-vote for banning, so the vote is technically 2-2, meaning it's tied and will be revisted later.

Why don't you use D-storm Rhy to kill it?

lol

 

[EV]

Why don't you use D-storm Rhy to kill it?

Use Rock Head Smash instead.

 

[Josh]

I assume that they didn't use abstain as an auto-vote for banning, so the vote is technically 2-2, meaning it's tied and will be revisted later.


lol

The vote is not technically 2-2, if that's the logic keeping maero in the tier it should be banned. It should be 2-1, the point of abstain is so your vote doesn't influence the results.

Abstain isn't just a substitute for no ban...

E @ below: hi smart man. Why don't you explain to me what you think abstain means? There were only 3 council emmebers who voted. A majority of them voted to ban. Someone declining to give an opinion is NOT no ban, and I feel like explaining a grade 2 concept so I give up merry Christmas lmao

 

[lost heros]

The vote is not technically 2-2, if that's the logic keeping maero in the tier it should be banned. It should be 2-1, the point of abstain is so your vote doesn't influence the results.

Abstain isn't just a substitute for no ban...

50% of the council is not a majority of the council.

 

[Adonzo]

How abstentions are counted vary depending on the body holding the vote. Some administrations require only a majority of the active voters to pass. Others require a majority of the entire membership, effectively making abstentions a "no" vote. Both are equally valid means of holding a vote. This council clearly chose the latter, and this should not be an issue so long as it continues using the latter option. End conversation.

 

[Tornadus-Therian]

Actually we're still discussing which way we would like to interpret abstentions regarding both this case and future cases right now. We should come to a conclusion shortly, and will update you when we do. Aerodactylite will be legal until we reach that desicion, and could be banned if we decide that abstentions do not count toward the size of the majority. Thanks for being patient!

In other news, what are people's thoughts on the viability of defensive play in STAB right now? It's a very natural and comfortable play style for me, but I've been struggling to not get smoked by tapus and UB's, most of which are crazy strong. I've found slowking, Celesteela, and venusaur to be strong picks that can take hits without being setup fodder, but I haven't found very consistent teammates for them or Pokémon that really wall the big hitters without sacrificing any hope of putting out pressure (forretress et al).

 

[Josh]

Hello,

That doesn't make sense. Explain to me why abstain should exist if you're just going to count it as a no ban vote anyways. Abstain is an option for people who are unsure, unsure doesn't mean they think it should remain legal. Abstain should absolutely remain an option, but remove it if you're going to count it as no ban anyways because it's just dumb and pointless.

Moving onto issue 2: council, POST YOUR THOUGHTS. Afaik it was never even announced who voted what, like ??? Let's see some votes with a quick explanation from each voter why they voted that way. This is what's important for the community. We need to get inside the councils heads, get some reasoning and justification. From where I'm sitting maero is insanely stupidly brokenly broken so I want to know what justification 1 person has for keeping it in the tier... or wait, 2 people, since abstain is a synonym of no ban!

Issue 3: maero is broken and shouldn't be legal but (lenny face)

This post reads angry but it's not!

 

[Tornadus-Therian]

I agree with you on all accounts, which is why I've been posting more about the goings on of the council. I'm also trying not to throw people under the bus or speak on their behalf and say things they disagree with. I brought up the fact that abstain is currently counted as no ban, since I think that's dumb too. But I'm not the entire council and I don't want to undermine people, so I'll let them post their thoughts on their own.

I'm not trying to dodge questions when I ask for people's thoughts on the state of the metagame, I just don't want this thread to turn into a swamp of logistical posts, and I legitimately want to know what people think on these topics.

I voted ban on Aero, since it's clearly impossible for almost every team to deal with that doesn't carry multiple scarves, a massive array of priority, or steelix. It destroys stall wholesale and has an incredible matchup against offense and balance as well. It's top 2 fastest and like top 5 strongest with good typing and coverage.

Belly drum is stupid. I don't think this one needs much justification.

I was going to vote ban on the ZMoves, since I think they fall under a similar category as shell smash and geomancy in that it's a fairly one shot deal that almost anything has a chance to sweep with. But people clearly wanted more time to play with them in a new environment, so I voted no ban. I'm particularly wary of Rotom, hoopa, and Chandelure, since they make strong bulky sweepers.

People seemed even more up in arms at the suggestion of a Silvally ban, so I voted no ban on that one as well.

EDIT:

Things on my radar to take a look at are Silvally, boosting ZMoves, full trapping moves, kartana, rotom, strength sap, and everything that was banned last gen.

Hope this helps.

 

[EV]

Like Adonzo said, some councils require a majority pro-ban from the entirety of the council. That's how we operated last gen with all 500 iterations of our council, but I guess an abstain vote never mattered so no one noticed.

I was voting no ban on Maero because Shore Up breathes life into so many new walls, but unless you're a dedicated (and good) stall player, you maybe didn't notice. There are some other things besides Steelix: Rhydon, Mudsdale, Garchomp, and kek Stunfisk (who knows???? It checks Thundurus w/o NP), and oldies like Klefki, Hippowdon, sometimes Landorus-T and Ferrothorn. These mons are all pretty viable (minus kekfisk), and I encourage players to incorporate them into more balance teams. (Seriously, max HP, max Attack Eviolite Rock Head Rhydon with Head Smash/Ground STAB/Shore Up/hazards is pretty bomb! Pairs wonderfully with MVenu and Celesteela.) In the end, however, I tilted to ban because Maero runs through everything else, and with proper coverage, which it most certainly can afford to carry, it can even smash these checks, and stallbreak them with Taunt. I was about 55/45 split on this one.

Belly Dum more like it. I hate the unpredictability of any Normal potentially shooting up to +6. Ew ew ew. 100/0 split.

The Z-moves are a new edition and when played smartly (read: saved for the perfect moment), they can win you games. Heck, even when not played smartly they can. I ran a HO team with ToT Hoopa-U that won me about 80% of my wins with that team, mainly because people forgot about priority. I just setup early and swept. Anyway, I find some of these moves to be worse than others: ToT, Conversion, and maaaaybe Sketch are closer to being broken than say, Hold Hands. I voted not to ban them all so we can continue testing them and see if the meta can adapt with phazing, better defensive cohesion, etc. Ultimately they're a one-and-done somewhat high risk, high reward playstyle. 30/70 split, with the intention to try again later if necessary.

Finally, Silvally. The Ghost QD set is certainly very good, but I think we were just unprepared for a bulky Ghost sweeper with impeccable coverage that can't be revenged by traditional methods e.g. FakeSpeed. Go figure. Other QD sets are also quite good. Silvally's problem is its middling stats, which individually aren't impressive, but take them as a whole and it's actually quite good. The item reliance is a toss-up but the perks outweigh the negatives. I have to bring up that U word again, unpredictability, because you HAVE to scout Silvally, which certainly favors high-level play, and we don't really have a lot of that right now, if ever. Unpredictability makes me uncomfortable. However, I really hate to toss away the (defensive) utility of 17 other types in order to rid us of one broken type. I ended up no ban so we can explore Silvally more and also on the assumption that we can come up with an alternative to handling forme bans. I know it breaks precedent--and I'm a stickler for precedent--but I'd be down for banning Memories. My split was 49/51, with the hope we can approach Silvally again with a new method.

Happy now, smelly Josh ?

×××××​

Stuff on my radar:

• Broken/ish
  • MAero still
  • Full trapping moves!!! Anchor Shot, Thousand Waves, and Spirit Shackle
  • Kartana
• Annoying/Wait and see
  • Rotoms
  • Strength Sap
  • Quiver Dance (as an alternative to Silvally???)
  • Some Z-moves (ToT, Conversion)
  • Ash Greninja
  • Lovely Kiss??? (haven't seen it but I'm thinking it's a sleeper threat atm)
  • Betathunder (needs ban NOW)

We also have an opening on the council! Two, actually, because odds are better than evens. I've submitted my picks to the other members. Pinging them publicly now ihhca Betathunder

 

[Funbot28]

In other news, what are people's thoughts on the viability of defensive play in STAB right now? It's a very natural and comfortable play style for me, but I've been struggling to not get smoked by tapus and UB's, most of which are crazy strong. I've found slowking, Celesteela, and venusaur to be strong picks that can take hits without being setup fodder, but I haven't found very consistent teammates for them or Pokémon that really wall the big hitters without sacrificing any hope of putting out pressure (forretress et al).

Ok so I actually tried building defensive playstyles in STABmons currently and while it is quite hard mainly due to the amount of heavy hitters we have atm (ie: Diggersby, Kyurem-B and Pheromosa mainly), I was able to build a stall team that kinda works:

I won't start explaining in depth each mon to not make this an RMT, but I wanted to talk about a few mons that hold the team together.

Dhelmise @ Leftovers
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Atk / 160 Def
Adamant Nature
- Horn Leech
- Spore
- Strength Sap
- Spirit Shackle

This has been my main Diggersby answer on my stall teams due to how well its able to eat up hits from it if its not carrying either Knock Off or Fire Punch (which are both pretty rare to see be runned). Its also quite nice as a sleep spreader and can be quite an annoyance with the combination of Spirit Shackle + Spore + Strength Sap. I also use Dhelmise on some of my bulky balance teams as well due to it just being a great pivot due to its great defensive typing that beats out a lot of stuff in the current STABmons metgame.

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Rapid Spin
- Milk Drink
- Heal Bell

An old relic from Gen 6 STABmons, Sylveon is the main hazard remover and general cleric of the team. I actually do not see many Sylveons on the ladder through my playtesting and I am guessing this is mainly due to the fact of the -ate nerfs (which I find weren't as bad as people made it up to be) and the fact that SuMo introduced many new powerful Fairy types mainly in the Tapus that kinda outshine Sylveon atm. Still, Sylveon has prooved to me that it is still really good and I encourage others to use it more often (especially Z-Conversion sets are really cool).

Silvally-Steel @ Steel Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 SpD
Careful Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Imprison
- Transform
- Strength Sap

Besides Transform Chansey, this is probably the most cancer defensive set in STABmons atm. I really do believe this set just proves how broken trapping moves really are and why they should be banned. This Silvally set aims to take out specific threats to the team such as Tapu Lele, Kyurem-B and Porygon-Z by trapping and using Imprison + Transform to Struggle stall the opponent out. Its a really cheesy strat that honeslty should not be allowed due to how easy and consistent it is to pull off (I once did this to three mons on the opposing team...).

Here are some replays of the team in action:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-498127774
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-498089398 vs Eevee General (srry bout that ;)

Here is an importable if anyone is interested:

Hide

Sableye-Mega @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 SpD
Careful Nature
- Parting Shot
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp
- Knock Off

Silvally-Steel @ Steel Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 SpD
Careful Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Imprison
- Transform
- Strength Sap

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Transform
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Bell

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Spikes
- Toxic
- Shore Up

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Rapid Spin
- Milk Drink
- Heal Bell

Dhelmise @ Leftovers
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Atk / 160 Def
Adamant Nature
- Horn Leech
- Spore
- Strength Sap
- Spirit Shackle

 

[skies]

hello my friends! back into stabmons now that well i've realized nihilego's greatness of course

built a team with friend WhiteLion.

basic idea is wear things down with greninja/cb bulu then sweep with space poison. snorlax is there for entry hazard removal, while celesteela forms the defensive backbone and checks a ton of shit like maero and bulu and kartana which otherwise dick over the team. marowak is STRONG, second strongest v-create to 252+ cb darmanitan, lol. plus an electric immunity, and excellent typing, and priority, and sr. how could we say no? plus with celesteela an annoying combo is formed which kinda just wins versus certain teams lacking proper tools to eliminate the core. okay so what z-purify does is +1 to all stats, akin to trick or treat, though with a cute effect of being a one-time 50% healer. or it can run acid downpour versus faster teams for a one-time nuke. this thing is a WRECKING ball, and is the only thing with beast boost to get an all +1. its typing is cute btw, might seem bad, but it beats both garchomp and landorus-t and gliscor 1v1 anyways. only hippowdon stops it, or you could run grass knot to lure it in. greninja handles it though. very fun team. currently 8-2 with this team so it's pretty great!!!! p.s. the one loss is from some bs shenanigans w/ sticky web and shedinja smh and the other is from a leftovers twave marowak LOL. here's a replay vs nyan kat: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-505744678

speaking of user Eevee General's list:

-

: this seems real strong but broken yeah probably. haven't played quite enough to formulate a solid opinion, though new threats like certain silvally and celesteela kinda put a hole in its side. don't see it being not broken per say, but no strong opinion here!
-

: trapping moves are annoying, but not on the same level as abilities imo. yeah it sucks, but like, you have the option to not get hit by them since you should be expecting it. i think it buffs a lot of pokemon certainly, but it doesn't make any particular one stand out. plus shed shell is cute with magnezone running amuck. hate that thing.
-

: kartana oml. so annoying and i don't see how it wasn't banned. shift gear and beast boost makes this thing... insane. it snowballs into a broken menace insanely quickly and its high bulk + typing makes it hard to actually one shot it with priority. gonna have to use it more myself, but i don't think it's possible for it to be healthy.
-

: eh i don't think so. it's nice that they now have access to new moves certainly, but broken isn't something i'd call it. just a nice buff that makes each rotom forme a bit more reliable and makes wash have reliable recovery. i accept this change with open arms personally.
-

: nah. irritating move, but so is spore, and so is leech seed, and so on. though, the attack deterrent is nice, it's not broken or over-centralizing to the word. i see why it could be on radar, but i feel other things (kartana cough) deserve priority.
-

: quiver dance isn't broken bar on silvally, so i think if certain silvally formes are broken, ban the memory. if steel or ghost turns out broken, ban the ghost / steel memories. ice silvally w/ quiver dance isn't broken, no need to neuter a bad forme even further. plus, it looks a lot neater imo and still handles silvally issues.
-

/

: ugh okay so i love z-purify and z-tot but they're kinda just stupid. only like nihilego and gengar, to a lesser extent scolipede, make use of purify; while i feel like the only *strong* abuser of tot is mimkyu by virtue of disguise. though, if mimikyu is the sole issue, ban mimikyu instead. that's at least how i see it. totally not against purify/tot z-moves being banned, though i do not support the notion of banning, i wouldn't be opposed. conversion is just plain dumb though and i support banning that. just like too insane for my tastes and makes thing you should beat unbeatable since they have the power to just change their type and get a boost while doing it. oh and get the boost in all stats. ban it. so much worse than purify/tot.
-

: ash greninja is certainly worthy of being suspected, at the very least. it still retains solid power and then goes batshit crazy. it just kinda wins against teams late game and if they don't keep their fakespeeder alive, this thing goes off. it's a ticking time bomb the way i see it. i don't think it's unbeatable, just unhealthy, really. i support suspect, not quickban, since i wanna see how it turns out.
-

: lovely kiss is sleep, so i don't know much or how to think. though, the best abuser is unreleased, so there's that. no opinion here and it seems like low agenda on eevee general's list™.
- betathunder: yes.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Like Adonzo said, some councils require a majority pro-ban from the entirety of the council. That's how we operated last gen with all 500 iterations of our council, but I guess an abstain vote never mattered so no one noticed.

I was voting no ban on Maero because Shore Up breathes life into so many new walls, but unless you're a dedicated (and good) stall player, you maybe didn't notice. There are some other things besides Steelix: Rhydon, Mudsdale, Garchomp, and kek Stunfisk (who knows???? It checks Thundurus w/o NP), and oldies like Klefki, Hippowdon, sometimes Landorus-T and Ferrothorn. These mons are all pretty viable (minus kekfisk), and I encourage players to incorporate them into more balance teams. (Seriously, max HP, max Attack Eviolite Rock Head Rhydon with Head Smash/Ground STAB/Shore Up/hazards is pretty bomb! Pairs wonderfully with MVenu and Celesteela.) In the end, however, I tilted to ban because Maero runs through everything else, and with proper coverage, which it most certainly can afford to carry, it can even smash these checks, and stallbreak them with Taunt. I was about 55/45 split on this one.

Belly Dum more like it. I hate the unpredictability of any Normal potentially shooting up to +6. Ew ew ew. 100/0 split.

The Z-moves are a new edition and when played smartly (read: saved for the perfect moment), they can win you games. Heck, even when not played smartly they can. I ran a HO team with ToT Hoopa-U that won me about 80% of my wins with that team, mainly because people forgot about priority. I just setup early and swept. Anyway, I find some of these moves to be worse than others: ToT, Conversion, and maaaaybe Sketch are closer to being broken than say, Hold Hands. I voted not to ban them all so we can continue testing them and see if the meta can adapt with phazing, better defensive cohesion, etc. Ultimately they're a one-and-done somewhat high risk, high reward playstyle. 30/70 split, with the intention to try again later if necessary.

Finally, Silvally. The Ghost QD set is certainly very good, but I think we were just unprepared for a bulky Ghost sweeper with impeccable coverage that can't be revenged by traditional methods e.g. FakeSpeed. Go figure. Other QD sets are also quite good. Silvally's problem is its middling stats, which individually aren't impressive, but take them as a whole and it's actually quite good. The item reliance is a toss-up but the perks outweigh the negatives. I have to bring up that U word again, unpredictability, because you HAVE to scout Silvally, which certainly favors high-level play, and we don't really have a lot of that right now, if ever. Unpredictability makes me uncomfortable. However, I really hate to toss away the (defensive) utility of 17 other types in order to rid us of one broken type. I ended up no ban so we can explore Silvally more and also on the assumption that we can come up with an alternative to handling forme bans. I know it breaks precedent--and I'm a stickler for precedent--but I'd be down for banning Memories. My split was 49/51, with the hope we can approach Silvally again with a new method.

Happy now, smelly Josh ?

×××××​

Stuff on my radar:

• Broken/ish
  • MAero still
  • Full trapping moves!!! Anchor Shot, Thousand Waves, and Spirit Shackle
  • Kartana
• Annoying/Wait and see
  • Rotoms
  • Strength Sap
  • Quiver Dance (as an alternative to Silvally???)
  • Some Z-moves (ToT, Conversion)
  • Ash Greninja
  • Lovely Kiss??? (haven't seen it but I'm thinking it's a sleeper threat atm)
  • Betathunder (needs ban NOW)

We also have an opening on the council! Two, actually, because odds are better than evens. I've submitted my picks to the other members. Pinging them publicly now ihhca Betathunder

You've said this before, but I still don't understand it. What precedent does banning only one form break? Silvally forms, like Arceus forms, are tiered separately as per PR; if, indeed, Ghost Silvally, or any other type is broken, why not just ban the broken one and keep the rest?

 

[EV]

You've said this before, but I still don't understand it. What precedent does banning only one form break? Silvally forms, like Arceus forms, are tiered separately as per PR; if, indeed, Ghost Silvally, or any other type is broken, why not just ban the broken one and keep the rest?

IDK, maybe I'm confused then. The council has only ever discussed wholesale Silvally bans, not individual types. I'm pro-individual bans if that's what we can agree upon.