Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Usage Stats in post #581]

[astralydia]

Calm Mind Clefable is vastly underutilized. LO+3 and Defensive seem to be mostly what are run now but CM should really be used more.

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Moonlight

I know, I know. No fire move. But who are the main steel types in OU that can switch in and threaten Clef? Ferro, Aegislash, and Exca. Just run mons that lure and burn ferro and it can't do anything to you, even if it has gyro. Excadrill can be hard walled by a Corviknight on your team and can't switch into moonblast repeatedly since it is 3HKOd. Aegislash varies on the set but won't be keeping Clef away for very long since it will fall to 3 thunderbolts if it is not invested.

Many of the Clef checks like rotom, defensive clef, or sylveon rely on LO clef not being able to break them but they can just be boosted past with calm mind. It puts immense pressure on teams since it destroys slower cores, is immune to poison and hazards, and is very hard for offense to switch into. It's also very difficult to KO when boosted due to having very few weaknesses.

Going to add to this mon by saying that 3a CM Clef is a ridiculously strong mon. I've used it on Sticky Webs to varying success and it always ends up catching people out on its unexpectedly decent speed tier.

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
- Moonblast
- Fire Blast
- Psychic / Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind

The following set has very little in the way of defensive counterplay - not only are mons such as Ferrothorn, Excadrill, Aegislash and Corviknight all 2HKO'd by Fire Blast, Rotom-Heat is also taken out by a Calm Mind on the switch - the only way that Rotom-H can reliably beat Clefable is by Volt Switching out of it into another teammate that can threaten it out, such as Excadrill. The issue with this comes with how well Sticky Webs enhance Clefable's wallbreaking capabilities: once checks / counters to Clefable (with the only exception being Cinderace, as a check (it is sometimes 2HKO'd by Psychic / Thunderbolt) simply cannot deal with a Fire Blast coming their way. CM Clef also ends up breaking generally SpDef walls, since often times with Moonlight Clefable you'll end up fighting a losing battle with another Clefable - in this case, CM Clefable takes minimal damage from the SpDef Fairy (25.6% worst case assuming no Moonblast SpA drops). This can end up being quite a boon when paired with a breaker such as Dragapult or Hydreigon.

 

[guilt trips]

Hi, Flawless Creation here. We've had a lot of talk on this thread about both Arena Trap and Dracovish already, but another problematic issue in the tier atm especially when you go higher up the ladder that I dont see enough discussion is King's Rock. King's rock is blatantly uncompetitive in my opinion and deserves to be banned.

For starters, there is literally no incentive to use King's Rock except if you're literally aiming to bank on the 10% flinch chance to cheese past your opponent; something that we should not be endorsing as a competitive game. King's Rock reminds me a lot of Brightpowder back in Gens 4 and 5, where the metagame still had permanent sand and so Brightpowder Garchomp & Brightpowder Gliscor proved to rely too much on RNG for their ability to cheese past counters and win the game, regardless of the skill level of the other player. Just as how brightpowder proved to be problematic when paired with the ability Sand Veil, King's Rock at the moment is proving to be problematic when paired with multi hit moves, specifically Cloyster. Without King's Rock, Cloyster would probably be seen as a niche use for some teams. However with King's Rock, Cloyster's ability to cheese past teams is extremely uncompetitive, as it can flinch past would be counters such as Rotom-wash, Aegislash, Toxapex, Seismitoad 41% of the time. This renders player skill useless most of the time as even the best players would be losing the game (or at the very least, losing a HUGE portion of their defensive core) 41% of the time. You may say that a good player can just prevent Cloyster from ever setting up, but with its base 180 defense it can literally set up vs any physical attacker in the tier, especially if screens is up. That just is not a feasible option. The whole scenario throws the game from either player's hands and tosses it entirely to the chance of RNG. Of course, 41% isnt consistent at all, but thats not the point; in a competitive environment, we should not be allowing items that purely rely on hax to be allowed in the game as they take away the outcome of the game from the players to RNG.

A lot of players may agree that King's Rock is extremely frustrating to play against but they dont think its bannable because of Jirachi, and even Togekiss in previous generations being allowed. The main difference between Jirachi and Togekiss is that they have valid, legitimate uses they bring to a game. Jirachi could make for an excellent Choice Scarf Healing Wish user, Stealth Rock setter, wish passer, specially defensive wall, calm mind attacker. Togekiss provided an excellent switch in to fighting attacks, ground attacks, heal bell user, nasty plot stall breaker, etc. Serene Grace is the only ability on Jirachi, so it does not have the leisure of choosing from a different ability. RNG is always going to be in Pokemon; however we still strive to ban as little as possible especially when these Pokemon have legitimate uses in the tier.

On the other hand, there is literally NO reason to not ban King's Rock. King's Rock has no use whatsoever besides banking on the 10% flinch chance that happens completely randomly. Banning King's Rock would have 0 collateral damage, as opposed to banning Jirachi and Togekiss/ Serene Grace, which would. Again, this item is literally used for the sole purpose of trying to hax your way past your opponent, which should NOT be encouraged.

Finally, people may say that banning King's Rock this generation would make no sense as King's Rock has been allowed in all the previous generations and it received 0 buffs in Gen 8. Just because something was not banned in a previous generation does not mean it wasn't problematic, and we should still address the issue now when we still can. For example, baton pass, a move that has been allowed since Generation 3, wasn't banned from its entirety until Gen 7. After the Generation 7 ban, we then retroactively banned baton pass in gens 6, 5, and heavily restricted it in gen 4. Similarly, Arena Trap, also an ability that has been allowed in competitive play since Generation 3, was not banned until Generation 7. After the Generation 7 ban, we then retroactively banned it in Gens 6 and 5 as well. Mindsets change, people. Just because the previous pool of players did not think something was not an issue back then doesn't mean its not an issue now, or even back then. We should totally ban King's Rock this generation and possibly revisit it in previous generations as well if necessary. High ladder has been extremely frustrating to grind for countless players and is probably why top ladder is so dead atm, because you may be able to get up to 1800 on ladder and then next game lose 30 points from a 1600 ELO player as they were able to cheese past your team with the 41% flinch chance.

Please don't ignore this. If any player, or any tiering leader, has any disagreements on what I posted, reply so we can see the counterarguments. However right now based on my gathering of thoughts from numerous people high up the ladder, banning King's Rock has a considerable amount of support.

 

[Deleted User 229847]

Hi, Flawless Creation here. We've had a lot of talk on this thread about both Arena Trap and Dracovish already, but another problematic issue in the tier atm especially when you go higher up the ladder that I dont see enough discussion is King's Rock. King's rock is blatantly uncompetitive in my opinion and deserves to be banned.

For starters, there is literally no incentive to use King's Rock except if you're literally aiming to bank on the 10% flinch chance to cheese past your opponent; something that we should not be endorsing as a competitive game. King's Rock reminds me a lot of Brightpowder back in Gens 4 and 5, where the metagame still had permanent sand and so Brightpowder Garchomp & Brightpowder Gliscor proved to rely too much on RNG for their ability to cheese past counters and win the game, regardless of the skill level of the other player. Just as how brightpowder proved to be problematic when paired with the ability Sand Veil, King's Rock at the moment is proving to be problematic when paired with multi hit moves, specifically Cloyster. Without King's Rock, Cloyster would probably be seen as a niche use for some teams. However with King's Rock, Cloyster's ability to cheese past teams is extremely uncompetitive, as it can flinch past would be counters such as Rotom-wash, Aegislash, Toxapex, Seismitoad 41% of the time. This renders player skill useless most of the time as even the best players would be losing the game (or at the very least, losing a HUGE portion of their defensive core) 41% of the time. You may say that a good player can just prevent Cloyster from ever setting up, but with its base 180 defense it can literally set up vs any physical attacker in the tier, especially if screens is up. That just is not a feasible option. The whole scenario throws the game from either player's hands and tosses it entirely to the chance of RNG. Of course, 41% isnt consistent at all, but thats not the point; in a competitive environment, we should not be allowing items that purely rely on hax to be allowed in the game as they take away the outcome of the game from the players to RNG.

A lot of players may agree that King's Rock is extremely frustrating to play against but they dont think its bannable because of Jirachi, and even Togekiss in previous generations being allowed. The main difference between Jirachi and Togekiss is that they have valid, legitimate uses they bring to a game. Jirachi could make for an excellent Choice Scarf Healing Wish user, Stealth Rock setter, wish passer, specially defensive wall, calm mind attacker. Togekiss provided an excellent switch in to fighting attacks, ground attacks, heal bell user, nasty plot stall breaker, etc. Serene Grace is the only ability on Jirachi, so it does not have the leisure of choosing from a different ability. RNG is always going to be in Pokemon; however we still strive to ban as little as possible especially when these Pokemon have legitimate uses in the tier.

On the other hand, there is literally NO reason to not ban King's Rock. King's Rock has no use whatsoever besides banking on the 10% flinch chance that happens completely randomly. Banning King's Rock would have 0 collateral damage, as opposed to banning Jirachi and Togekiss/ Serene Grace, which would. Again, this item is literally used for the sole purpose of trying to hax your way past your opponent, which should NOT be encouraged.

Finally, people may say that banning King's Rock this generation would make no sense as King's Rock has been allowed in all the previous generations and it received 0 buffs in Gen 8. Just because something was not banned in a previous generation does not mean it wasn't problematic, and we should still address the issue now when we still can. For example, baton pass, a move that has been allowed since Generation 3, wasn't banned from its entirety until Gen 7. After the Generation 7 ban, we then retroactively banned baton pass in gens 6, 5, and heavily restricted it in gen 4. Similarly, Arena Trap, also an ability that has been allowed in competitive play since Generation 3, was not banned until Generation 7. After the Generation 7 ban, we then retroactively banned it in Gens 6 and 5 as well. Mindsets change, people. Just because the previous pool of players did not think something was not an issue back then doesn't mean its not an issue now, or even back then. We should totally ban King's Rock this generation and possibly revisit it in previous generations as well if necessary. High ladder has been extremely frustrating to grind for countless players and is probably why top ladder is so dead atm, because you may be able to get up to 1800 on ladder and then next game lose 30 points from a 1600 ELO player as they were able to cheese past your team with the 41% flinch chance.

Please don't ignore this. If any player, or any tiering leader, has any disagreements on what I posted, reply so we can see the counterarguments. However right now based on my gathering of thoughts from numerous people high up the ladder, banning King's Rock has a considerable amount of support.

I completely agree with you and I still find your defense of serene grace quite weak, at least for togekiss in this particular gen. People either run trick scarf or subnplot (which is 100 times better) and start flinchspamming on everything with little to no counterplay.
It's not like it has different viable sets that warrant its presence in the tier like jirachi (and even then, jirachi abused the shit out of iron head or body slam or thunder on most of them), togekiss is only here to make you flinch 60% of the time, even with the trick set after tricking something your main purpose is to paraflinch everything which again, doesn't look competitive to me.
In fact players who abuse the shit out of togekiss are on autopilot, they just have to find one good switch, or even sack one pokemon (screen setter?), to start subbing and/or statupping. No skill required whatsoever, the strategy either doesn't work because you do not flinch, or your opponent skips a turn because you lucked it out. I really don't understand why minimize is banned but this shit is allowed, it's literally the same thing but in reverse. I know smogon hates complex bans, but I truly wish we could do something against this even banning serene grace as a whole.

 

[zbr]

I completely agree with you and I still find your defense of serene grace quite weak, at least for togekiss in this particular gen. People either run trick scarf or subnplot (which is 100 times better) and start flinchspamming on everything with little to no counterplay.
It's not like it has different viable sets that warrant its presence in the tier like jirachi (and even then, jirachi abused the shit out of iron head or body slam or thunder on most of them), togekiss is only here to make you flinch 60% of the time, even with the trick set after tricking something your main purpose is to paraflinch everything which again, doesn't look competitive to me.
In fact players who abuse the shit out of togekiss are on autopilot, they just have to find one good switch, or even sack one pokemon (screen setter?), to start subbing and/or statupping. No skill required whatsoever, the strategy either doesn't work because you do not flinch, or your opponent skips a turn because you lucked it out. I really don't understand why minimize is banned but this shit is allowed, it's literally the same thing but in reverse. I know smogon hates complex bans, but I truly wish we could do something against this even banning serene grace as a whole.

just ban the mons with the issue? why need to complex ban? jirachi isnt even in the meta yet so why worry about it? if you think kiss is a problem then id argue that you should argue for a kiss ban.

not like its necessary nor will it present an issue in the long run because we are still in our metagame infancy so just present your argument and fight away!

 

[p2]

bring back ditto see how the cloyster spam likes that shit

doubt cloyster is broken, sounds like another cycle of it abusing trends and becoming good for a while which has happened over multiple ous lol

some food for thought

 

[Deleted User 229847]

just ban the mons with the issue? why need to complex ban? jirachi isnt even in the meta yet so why worry about it? if you think kiss is a problem then id argue that you should argue for a kiss ban.

not like its necessary nor will it present an issue in the long run because we are still in our metagame infancy so just present your argument and fight away!

The problem is that the argument should be accepted by most of the community in order to accomplish the expected result, I don't think that simply proposing for a togekiss ban is a good idea, I don't really care if we need to ban serene grace as a ability, togekiss as a pokemon or a weird combination of flinch moves + serene grace, so long as the problem is resolved. I'd rather start a discussion around this because frankly I don't think that having togekiss around is good for the metagame, in the same fashion king's rock cloyster/weavile/dragapult are not a good thing either.

I don't agree that this meta is in its infancy, in actuality it's coming to a close with the release of Pokemon Home, and in Summer we're getting a new meta via the release of the first DLC.

bring back ditto see how the cloyster spam likes that shit

doubt cloyster is broken, sounds like another cycle of it abusing trends and becoming good for a while which has happened over multiple ous lol

some food for thought

One of the greatest arguments for the ban of dynamax was that ditto's high usage was an actual problem and more of a symptom of the actual problem. I'd say that proposing to use ditto should show that in fact, there is indeed a problem. I'd also ask you what are we actually trying to preseve here. A flinch strategy that is based on making you skip your fundamental turns on your would-be counters.

 

[Eeveeto]

In my opinion, Smogon should go one by one. Cloyster and Togekiss might be annoying, but are they really the biggest issue when Arena Trap (something that has been deemed uncompetitive/broken in the last 3 Gens) still exists? And after Arena Trap, there is still the Dracovish issue (Mon that forces the use of Water inmune Mons in almost every team), which I also think its far more relevant than the hax Mons.

So, I don,t think the flinching Mons are the priority on the watch list, at least right now.

 

[TheDoff]

Gonna chime in on y'all hating on togekiss.

I don't feel it's much a problem as cloyster for a few reasons:

1: it's much harder to pull it off.
Togekiss often finds a place on balance, where it tends to be a conk/hydre check. Meaning it won't be able to be used as a win con every single game. Cloyster sets up on half of the metagame and clicks flinch move. (It could also be sash and still be incredibly scary, meaning your entire game plan needs to revolve on breaking a potential sash and then being able to destroy it before it sets up/starts attacking, or suffer the consequences).

2. A single flinch with togekiss is annoying. A single flinch with cloyster usually wins the game.

3. It's much easier to revenge kill. Scarf may trick and cripple a mon, but gets smacked by anything faster. Also if it nasty plots it won't have coverage for steel or Dragon types.
Sub is scarier but infiltrator dragapult is on 40% of teams and shadow ball is a 2hko, while togekiss needs to forfeit flamethrower to ohko. Also togekiss gets no FLINCH PRIORITY which is what allows Cloyster to cheese through ridiculous shit like aegislash/bisharp, while having a move that ohkos the one thing faster than itself at +2, scarf dragapult (it's bad I know).

4. Togekiss can't touch rotom, which is faster and able to volt switch and break the sub, or discharge all the way through. Also toxtricity can easily counter. He has no way out if you play your counters well. Cloyster just needs to flinch your seismitoad/corviknight once.

Togekiss has always been meant as a mon able to shit on fat teams that will struggle against the more offensive archetypes, as well as fulfilling a more defensive role on the team meaning its role as a flinched is more limited. Cloyster is a dedicated sweeper able to potentially destroy balance, stall and offence alike, and after one boost the rest of the game is up to hax.

The problem lies in King's rock. As I said before, it can be slapped on any mon and break past a counter through luck. It promotes unhealthy strategies like lead beat-up weavile and in my opinion it needs to go.

 

[p2]

One of the greatest arguments for the ban of dynamax was that ditto's high usage was an actual problem and more of a symptom of the actual problem. I'd say that proposing to use ditto should show that in fact, there is indeed a problem. I'd also ask you what are we actually trying to preseve here. A flinch strategy that is based on making you skip your fundamental turns on your would-be counters.

There is a difference between having 80% usage and having select use on a few teams to handle certain threats, just because I am suggesting using Ditto again as potential counterplay does not mean I'm saying slap it on every single team. I am also suggesting to use a pokemon that is very viable in the tier right now, this isn't like suggesting Walrein to beat G-Darm or whatever nonsense people threw out there. This isn't like previous gens where Ditto was considered very niche and just not good in general, it has a well defined niche and IS good.

I'm not fussed about the preservation, I'm more fussed about why is this ever more concerning than Arena Trap? And I truly don't believe this is actually an issue because the past 2 gens have gone through these dumb ass cloyster phases, where it cheeses people for about 2 weeks and then goes away

 

[Deleted User 229847]

There is a difference between having 80% usage and having select use on a few teams to handle certain threats, just because I am suggesting using Ditto again as potential counterplay does not mean I'm saying slap it on every single team. I am also suggesting to use a pokemon that is very viable in the tier right now, this isn't like suggesting Walrein to beat G-Darm or whatever nonsense people threw out there. This isn't like previous gens where Ditto was considered very niche and just not good in general, it has a well defined niche and IS good.

I'm not fussed about the preservation, I'm more fussed about why is this ever more concerning than Arena Trap? And I truly don't believe this is actually an issue because the past 2 gens have gone through these dumb ass cloyster phases, where it cheeses people for about 2 weeks and then goes away

42% usage (dynamax meta) is not 80%. Ditto has its niche, that is true, as an anti-statupper revengekiller. That didn't really change through gens, just because it was considered niche doesn't mean it was subpar or a niche mon. Saying that cloyster wasn't a problem in last gen is partially right, king's rock cloyster has always been a terribly uncompetitive set, but in the current meta with slow ass pokemons and the absence of good priority users, it's getting quite out of hand. For all I care the council could ban arena trap tomorrow (in fact even though I am in the slim minority that doesn't find dugtrio that bad, I'm fine to let him go), that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss other problems that are currently in the tier.

Again, what are you trying to preverve? It's not like cloyster is the only abuser of this, losing to swords dance beat up weavile is just dumb, and the same goes for dragapult. Uncompetitive item that defines an uncompetitive flinch-based tactic. I find it way worse than dugtrio actually, but whatever, ban the fucker so we can start discussing other things.

 

[theotherguytm]

There's nothing wrong with dealing with something "on the side", as it were, see Moody earlier this gen lol. Tbh I wouldn't mind if it got banned, but I'll give you my thoughts on this. All the below is IMO
Hax is healthy (though sometimes frustrating) when:

• It attaches a reasonably small risk to a moderate reward (See WoW/Fire Blast etc accuracy). This is healthy because it leads to risk-reward management that is handleable.
• It rewards otherwise optimal play and carries little risk (eg: fishing for burns with Scald on the switch-in). This is healthy because the player has made a correct call, and is rewarded for his choice. What he chooses to do with a free turn is his discretion.
• It introduces mild uncertainty as the result of a battle (see damage rolls, crits). This is healthy as it prevents players being able to simply calculate everything to perfection, which would pretty much decide a battle from team preview. While it is possible to EV your mons to avoid certain rolls, this is impossible for all cases and carries a penalty to your mon's other stats. Trying to optimise further should carry an element of risk to it.
• It destabilises the result of the battle, but not frequently or to the point of a player being unable to prevent it either in battle or in the teambuilder (eg: Your Corv got KOed by a Drill's flinch chance move? You could have included/preserved a secondary check or Roosted more). This is more subjective, but I think to make the game more fun there has to be a way back from certain positions for a player who is losing. Yes, they may have mispredicted. Yes, they may have not accounted for a certain threat. But if they play smart enough, there should be a way back from most positions of disadvantage short of a clearly losing gamestate. I want to emphasise that because if one player is clearly losing badly, he should lose unless he has a very specific plan for how to get out, otherwise there is no benefit to being a better player. But just sometimes, the worse player may get a stroke of luck and seize his chance. He still has to play well to take advantage of luck.

Hax is unhealthy when:

• Incorrect plays are rewarded (eg: Going for Hurricane when you should switch, but the confusion bails you out). This is the kind of thing where we just shrug and say "That's the game sometimes." While this is not great, it's just a part of the game that we just have to accept. It being a rare occurrence helps in this regard (in the above example you only have a roughly 10% chance to get bailed out due to accuracy, the confusion chance and the 50/50 with confusion).
• Risky RNG-fishing play becomes viable (eg: Scarf Togekiss just clicking Air Slash or Pex being able to spam Scald against physical attackers without punishment, also Moody). It's important to note I DON'T mean risk-reward play. What I mean by this is basically poking the RNG over and over without any regard to strategy and waiting for something to happen. While taking a safe opportunity to have a punt on the RNG, as it were, is fine as previously established, but taking excessive risks just for a chance of something cannot be healthy.
• Extreme risk-reward (see OHKO moves). Pretty self-explaintory. If you can just out a mon on one coinflip then there cannot be anything but RNG play, and strategies that attempt to exploit it normally fall under RNG fishing (like RestTalkOHKO Lapras).
• Removal of player control of the outcome (see evasion moves, Moody speed boosts, SwagPlay). This is probably the worst of them. When neither player can control the outcome beyond click and pray to RNGesus, the game is dead.

Which of these does King's Rock fall under? I'd say it can satisfy all of the negatives, and none of the positives. It is high risk as not getting the flinch can (and often will in the situations described above) kill your mon, and you have to give up on say, Focus Sash or Life Orb or whatever useful item you could otherwise have. It rewards incorrect play like leaving your mon in against a check just to go for a flinch, while not giving any benefit to skilful play in forcing a switch. It introduces heavy uncertainty and swings games on a single flinch. And at the end of the day, the King's Rock user has little control in whether he actually wins or not if he needs it to work.

But on the flipside, I'd argue Togekiss does not do the above. It rarely kills its checks with one flinch, and one flinch from it rarely decides a whole game. It has plenty of reason to be used beyond RNG thanks to how powerful its Sub NP set is. It is telegraphed from Team Preview, and you have plenty of time to prepare counterplay. It requires skill to manoeuvre into position, its bulk and lack of damage unboosted means fishing is rarely catastrophic one way or the other, and it is a healthy, albeit frustrating, means of punishing things below its speed tier.
Make it all this what you will. I don't really care about King's Rock being banned or not, but on principle if something's main strat is to go for a <50% roll for the whole game, then it should be a problem to a degree.

 

[aceguy123]

Hi, Flawless Creation here. We've had a lot of talk on this thread about both Arena Trap and Dracovish already, but another problematic issue in the tier atm especially when you go higher up the ladder that I dont see enough discussion is King's Rock. King's rock is blatantly uncompetitive in my opinion and deserves to be banned.

For starters, there is literally no incentive to use King's Rock except if you're literally aiming to bank on the 10% flinch chance to cheese past your opponent; something that we should not be endorsing as a competitive game. King's Rock reminds me a lot of Brightpowder back in Gens 4 and 5, where the metagame still had permanent sand and so Brightpowder Garchomp & Brightpowder Gliscor proved to rely too much on RNG for their ability to cheese past counters and win the game, regardless of the skill level of the other player. Just as how brightpowder proved to be problematic when paired with the ability Sand Veil, King's Rock at the moment is proving to be problematic when paired with multi hit moves, specifically Cloyster. Without King's Rock, Cloyster would probably be seen as a niche use for some teams. However with King's Rock, Cloyster's ability to cheese past teams is extremely uncompetitive, as it can flinch past would be counters such as Rotom-wash, Aegislash, Toxapex, Seismitoad 41% of the time. This renders player skill useless most of the time as even the best players would be losing the game (or at the very least, losing a HUGE portion of their defensive core) 41% of the time. You may say that a good player can just prevent Cloyster from ever setting up, but with its base 180 defense it can literally set up vs any physical attacker in the tier, especially if screens is up. That just is not a feasible option. The whole scenario throws the game from either player's hands and tosses it entirely to the chance of RNG. Of course, 41% isnt consistent at all, but thats not the point; in a competitive environment, we should not be allowing items that purely rely on hax to be allowed in the game as they take away the outcome of the game from the players to RNG.

Pokemon as a whole is an inherently chance based game. Every attack has a critical chance. Many attacks have chance based accuracy or secondary effects. These are no more or less competitive than another chance based effect. The issue people seem to be having is that they think flinch is overpowered or uncompetitve. If king's rock gave the attack idk 41% chance to confuse or poison or w/e do you think it'd still be an issue?

The other portion to address is that Cloyster itself is overpowered or uncompetitive. Seeing as it is not ranked highly and you seem to think it'd be niche at best without king's rock that doesn't seem to be the case. Yet there're only a few mons you listed there that "counter it". Which is an inaccurate list, as only certain Aegi, Pex, Pyukumuku, and Corsola-G truly counter it. The rest could be crit on the 5 hits and at the very least take nearly all their health. The fact Cloyster only needs one or two flinches generally speaks to how powerful it is and nothing about removing King's Rock changes that. I think that gets to the root of the problem- the meta is in such a position where Cloyster has few counters. There are some obvious methods of stopping it but generally you're relying on certain members of your already composed team to counter it instead of having to put in a specific counter like inner focus defensive Lucario or w/e. That's a meta and player issue.

The meta should be adapting if it sees Cloyster as that big of an issue (which it has to some extent) just like you have to run something to break Pex every game and you have to run a Dracovish counter. What determines if something is broken is how constraining that is or how many options are available. Darm-G was banned because it was constraining to the point a counter was always needed and even then they didn't work sometimes. Dugtrio is probably going to be banned because there isn't really anything that you can do to counter it.

If people see Cloyster as a problem in the meta, that's fine. I generally disagree with it having an item option to have the chance to pass its counters as an issue. Aegislash can hold Air Balloon and now your ground revenge kill is unusable. Cloyster reminds me more of Kartana. Leaf Blade inherently has high crit but when it crit against your one Kartana counter you were screwed. Which was much more inconsistent and more luck based. King's Rock is very consistent, in 3 attacks your likelihood of no flinches is (.59^3)~= 21%.

We shouldn't pretend it's an issue of the item, no one gives a shit someone used King's Rock to cheese 1 win out of 10 matches to get Dragapult past Sylveon or something. And no one is cursing Cinccino's name. King's Rock is consistent due to the merits of Cloyster's ability and annoying due to Cloyster's power. There are many moves or items that are fairly useless or gimmicky outside of working in combination with some other specific mon. This Eject Pack shell smash gimmick with copycat. All three of those things are terrible gimmicks to run if not for the combo. If that combo somehow took off and won all the time (lmao) are we gonna debate if Eject Pack is a problem? King's Rock is gimmicky and bad on anything other than a Skill Link user and even then the Pokemon has to be hard to beat otherwise.

A lot of players may agree that King's Rock is extremely frustrating to play against but they dont think its bannable because of Jirachi, and even Togekiss in previous generations being allowed. The main difference between Jirachi and Togekiss is that they have valid, legitimate uses they bring to a game. Jirachi could make for an excellent Choice Scarf Healing Wish user, Stealth Rock setter, wish passer, specially defensive wall, calm mind attacker. Togekiss provided an excellent switch in to fighting attacks, ground attacks, heal bell user, nasty plot stall breaker, etc. Serene Grace is the only ability on Jirachi, so it does not have the leisure of choosing from a different ability. RNG is always going to be in Pokemon; however we still strive to ban as little as possible especially when these Pokemon have legitimate uses in the tier.

On the other hand, there is literally NO reason to not ban King's Rock. King's Rock has no use whatsoever besides banking on the 10% flinch chance that happens completely randomly. Banning King's Rock would have 0 collateral damage, as opposed to banning Jirachi and Togekiss/ Serene Grace, which would. Again, this item is literally used for the sole purpose of trying to hax your way past your opponent, which should NOT be encouraged.

This is a terrible argument. For one, chance is not random. You can't tell me people run scald and plan on never burning the opponent. People use scald and expect to burn because 30% chance is consistent if the move is used enough times. Also you can't tell me that people never deserve to lose due to focus blast missing.

The other portion of this argument is even worse. It's very subjective as to what Pokemon is more "useful" or healthy to have. Again, this isn't about King's Rock at all it's about Cloyster with King's Rock. And Cloyster with King's Rock is a powerful sweeper and breaker with King's Rock. It's unfair that it's a breaker with King's Rock? Then it's unfair Toxapex walls stuff like Bisharp due to burning with scald. It's unfair that you can't beat Mega Medicham because your Torn-T missed hurricane. If iron head weren't the best physical steel move to run on Excadrill, would we complain about it running the move just for the 30% flinch chance? LO adamant Cloyster kills Seismitoad outright. You are sacrificing that possibility by running King's Rock.

Finally, people may say that banning King's Rock this generation would make no sense as King's Rock has been allowed in all the previous generations and it received 0 buffs in Gen 8. Just because something was not banned in a previous generation does not mean it wasn't problematic, and we should still address the issue now when we still can. For example, baton pass, a move that has been allowed since Generation 3, wasn't banned from its entirety until Gen 7. After the Generation 7 ban, we then retroactively banned baton pass in gens 6, 5, and heavily restricted it in gen 4. Similarly, Arena Trap, also an ability that has been allowed in competitive play since Generation 3, was not banned until Generation 7. After the Generation 7 ban, we then retroactively banned it in Gens 6 and 5 as well. Mindsets change, people. Just because the previous pool of players did not think something was not an issue back then doesn't mean its not an issue now, or even back then. We should totally ban King's Rock this generation and possibly revisit it in previous generations as well if necessary. High ladder has been extremely frustrating to grind for countless players and is probably why top ladder is so dead atm, because you may be able to get up to 1800 on ladder and then next game lose 30 points from a 1600 ELO player as they were able to cheese past your team with the 41% flinch chance.

This point illustrates my argument. Arena Trap was uncompetitive in Gen 7 and banned then because Dugtrio was unfair with the ability in that meta. And it wasn't banned, Dugtrio was. No one was gonna break out Trapinch though which is again my point. No one cares about Cinccino doing the same thing. If anything it's fun to see something like Beat Up Weavile give certain things a workable niche back into the meta. Cloyster is the issue. And when you start comparing that, Cloyster isn't nearly the same level broken or unfair as Dugtrio in Gen 7. This generation Dugtrio is back and while many people still want it banned, I think it surviving this long proves that it is not nearly as broken as that particular meta let it be.

Baton pass I don't know if I'm misremembering but I thought that was banned in Gen 6 or even Gen 5. At least I remember there being certain complex bans like not being able to pass more than one stat or something. Regardless that was due to new strategies and Pokemon that could abuse said strategies being introduced like Magic Bounce Espeon and Speed Boost Scolipede. Like you admitted, nothing about King's Rock has changed but really nothing has changed about how it works or what it works with has changed either. There isn't some new Skill Link user who is destroying people. It's that the meta lets Cloyster destroy people. When the Tapus are back and Magearna or w/e else, we'll be coming back to it in months saying why did we ban this trash.

 

[theotherguytm]

Pokemon as a whole is an inherently chance based game. Every attack has a critical chance. Many attacks have chance based accuracy or secondary effects. These are no more or less competitive than another chance based effect. The issue people seem to be having is that they think flinch is overpowered or uncompetitve. If king's rock gave the attack idk 41% chance to confuse or poison or w/e do you think it'd still be an issue?

the issue is Cloyster can be 1 on 6 and yet the whole game is a coinflip. If it was poison or confusion, it wouldn't be an issue because you could still just KO Cloyster. And this argument is equally applicable to unbanning Minimise and Sheer Cold.

The other portion to address is that Cloyster itself is overpowered or uncompetitive. Seeing as it is not ranked highly and you seem to think it'd be niche at best without king's rock that doesn't seem to be the case. Yet there're only a few mons you listed there that "counter it". Which is an inaccurate list, as only certain Aegi, Pex, Pyukumuku, and Corsola-G truly counter it. The rest could be crit on the 5 hits and at the very least take nearly all their health. The fact Cloyster only needs one or two flinches generally speaks to how powerful it is and nothing about removing King's Rock changes that. I think that gets to the root of the problem- the meta is in such a position where Cloyster has few counters. There are some obvious methods of stopping it but generally you're relying on certain members of your already composed team to counter it instead of having to put in a specific counter like inner focus defensive Lucario or w/e. That's a meta and player issue.

The meta should be adapting if it sees Cloyster as that big of an issue (which it has to some extent) just like you have to run something to break Pex every game and you have to run a Dracovish counter. What determines if something is broken is how constraining that is or how many options are available. Darm-G was banned because it was constraining to the point a counter was always needed and even then they didn't work sometimes. Dugtrio is probably going to be banned because there isn't really anything that you can do to counter it.

If people see Cloyster as a problem in the meta, that's fine. I generally disagree with it having an item option to have the chance to pass its counters as an issue. Aegislash can hold Air Balloon and now your ground revenge kill is unusable. Cloyster reminds me more of Kartana. Leaf Blade inherently has high crit but when it crit against your one Kartana counter you were screwed. Which was much more inconsistent and more luck based. King's Rock is very consistent, in 3 attacks your likelihood of no flinches is (.59^3)~= 21%.

We shouldn't pretend it's an issue of the item, no one gives a shit someone used King's Rock to cheese 1 win out of 10 matches to get Dragapult past Sylveon or something. And no one is cursing Cinccino's name. King's Rock is consistent due to the merits of Cloyster's ability and annoying due to Cloyster's power. There are many moves or items that are fairly useless or gimmicky outside of working in combination with some other specific mon. This Eject Pack shell smash gimmick with copycat. All three of those things are terrible gimmicks to run if not for the combo. If that combo somehow took off and won all the time (lmao) are we gonna debate if Eject Pack is a problem? King's Rock is gimmicky and bad on anything other than a Skill Link user and even then the Pokemon has to be hard to beat otherwise.

Uhh. The meta is adapting, people are running checks for it, they're just losing to a coinflip anyway. And Cloyster without King's Rock has a load of hard stops that it can't OHKO that destroy it, like Bisharp. I think you miss the point. It's not being argued as broken it's being argued as uncompetitive. There is a difference.

This point illustrates my argument. Arena Trap was uncompetitive in Gen 7 and banned then because Dugtrio was unfair with the ability in that meta. And it wasn't banned, Dugtrio was. No one was gonna break out Trapinch though which is again my point. No one cares about Cinccino doing the same thing. If anything it's fun to see something like Beat Up Weavile give certain things a workable niche back into the meta. Cloyster is the issue. And when you start comparing that, Cloyster isn't nearly the same level broken or unfair as Dugtrio in Gen 7. This generation Dugtrio is back and while many people still want it banned, I think it surviving this long proves that it is not nearly as broken as that particular meta let it be.

Baton pass I don't know if I'm misremembering but I thought that was banned in Gen 6 or even Gen 5. At least I remember there being certain complex bans like not being able to pass more than one stat or something. Regardless that was due to new strategies and Pokemon that could abuse said strategies being introduced like Magic Bounce Espeon and Speed Boost Scolipede. Like you admitted, nothing about King's Rock has changed but really nothing has changed about how it works or what it works with has changed either. There isn't some new Skill Link user who is destroying people. It's that the meta lets Cloyster destroy people. When the Tapus are back and Magearna or w/e else, we'll be coming back to it in months saying why did we ban this trash.

Wrong on every point, Dugtrio was voted Do Not Ban in a suspect after it was shown that Diglet could do much of the same as it, and Arena Trap as a whole was suspected and banned, like Shadow Tag. Baton Pass was conserved through Gens 5 and 6 by various clauses of increasing complexity (it got to:Only 1 passer per team, not allowed to pass Speed and other boosts at the same time). BTW I have already figured out something dumb Trapinch can do RN that I'm keeping locked in an underground safe for my own personal abuse.

 

[Moonballer]

I typed a lot of stuff but I am going to boil it down and be as concise as I can. I have been a proponent of King's Rock Cloyster since it received Shell Smash, and scarfkiss was probably my favorite mon to use in the DPPt days. Once I noticed this trend I decided to build flinch spam teams and give it a go. I wanted to see how braindead you could play it and I hovered around the 1400s consistently without playing particularly smart (outside of spam flinch fishing).

What I will say is that I think Cloyster is the most problematic abuser of flinch currently. Flinches from Cloyster seem to make the most difference because they specifically let you overcome checks. Scarfkiss isn't bad by any means, but I do get the sense that subNP does more. Weavile has been fun to experiment with, and I like it a lot but if I am being honest it doesn't do a whole lot. I've mostly been running it as a dedicated anti-lead because A. The lack of LO or CB really hurts it if you want to use any non-beat up move and B. You need to keep your team healthy and status free to hit 5 or 6 times to maximize the flinch chance. Regardless, every game is the same with it-fake out turn 1 if you can, use taunt if necessary, hit beat up until you die, maybe ice shard if you need the priority to pick something off. Sometimes you don't flinch enough and sometimes you flinch a lot, despite having an extra ~6% chance to flinch, the flinches from Weavile seem much more inconsequential than Cloyster's are. One neat thing is that, depending on your team comp, Beat Up does get some interesting 2hkos.

In the end, I am inclined to agree that King's Rock (and don't forget about Razor Fang) are items that are somewhat uncompetitive, on paper. But outside of Cloyster, who has several other items it could arguably run, you're at best wasting an item slot and at worst wasting the entire team slot. I don't think King's Rock/Razor Fang need to be banned necessarily but maybe my opinion will change as I keep playing, and if the community decides it should at least be suspected, or quick banned I wouldn't be mad about it.

 

[Dragoon Rider]

Going to add to this mon by saying that 3a CM Clef is a ridiculously strong mon. I've used it on Sticky Webs to varying success and it always ends up catching people out on its unexpectedly decent speed tier.

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
- Moonblast
- Fire Blast
- Psychic / Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind

The following set has very little in the way of defensive counterplay - not only are mons such as Ferrothorn, Excadrill, Aegislash and Corviknight all 2HKO'd by Fire Blast, Rotom-Heat is also taken out by a Calm Mind on the switch - the only way that Rotom-H can reliably beat Clefable is by Volt Switching out of it into another teammate that can threaten it out, such as Excadrill. The issue with this comes with how well Sticky Webs enhance Clefable's wallbreaking capabilities: once checks / counters to Clefable (with the only exception being Cinderace, as a check (it is sometimes 2HKO'd by Psychic / Thunderbolt) simply cannot deal with a Fire Blast coming their way. CM Clef also ends up breaking generally SpDef walls, since often times with Moonlight Clefable you'll end up fighting a losing battle with another Clefable - in this case, CM Clefable takes minimal damage from the SpDef Fairy (25.6% worst case assuming no Moonblast SpA drops). This can end up being quite a boon when paired with a breaker such as Dragapult or Hydreigon.

Clef on sticky web is very interesting. On webs HO clef can definitely afford to just run 3 attacks since it won't be used to pivot much and its coverage is near perfect. Psychic is cool too since you hit rotom neutral while maintaining pex coverage. Clef with full coverage is one of the few mons in OU that is just plain impossible to wall.

Who is your web setter of choice? My opinion on web setters is that Shuckle is the only setter with rocks + webs, so it's probably the best. Ribombee should lose to excadril spamming rapid spin though it does have skill swap for hatterene. Galvantula has the benefit of thunder to prevent defog though I doubt it OHKOs mandibuzz or even corviknight. Araquinid is probably too slow/frail to get up webs reliably and is easy to defog on via Corviknight. I don't use webs much these are just my impressions.

 

[TheDoff]

Clef on sticky web is very interesting. On webs HO clef can definitely afford to just run 3 attacks since it won't be used to pivot much and its coverage is near perfect. Psychic is cool too since you hit rotom neutral while maintaining pex coverage. Clef with full coverage is one of the few mons in OU that is just plain impossible to wall.

Who is your web setter of choice? My opinion on web setters is that Shuckle is the only setter with rocks + webs, so it's probably the best. Ribombee should lose to excadril spamming rapid spin though it does have skill swap for hatterene. Galvantula has the benefit of thunder to prevent defog though I doubt it OHKOs mandibuzz or even corviknight. Araquinid is probably too slow/frail to get up webs reliably and is easy to defog on via Corviknight. I don't use webs much these are just my impressions.

I've been using this set a lot today:

Underrated? (Araquanid) (M) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Water Bubble
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Sticky Web
- Liquidation
- Infestation
- Giga Drain

in conjunction with:

Fun (Dracovish) @ Choice Band
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Crunch
- Outrage
- Psychic Fangs


Basically you get webs ASAP and start spamming liquidation. Its much stronger than you would think (spdef corv is almost 2hkod lmao, LO clef takes up to 80%) and if their dracovish answer is Seismitoad it gets trapped and removed (see replay) Then with webs up you hard to dracovish and start clicking fishious rend. If the corv comes in to defog its a free kill with dracovish.

Most times I end up playing with webs up because they either lose their lead drill turn one (to liquidation -> webs -> drill spins on rocky helmet and dies) or because people would rather brave bird the web setter and i start putting up pressure with dracovish and teammates.

Super fun strat, will definitely build more around it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1055149725

 

[tmacbalanced]

Here's a serious core I discovered that is very splashable and very spammable. Dracovish + Hydreigon The Dragon Bros.

Dracovish @ Choice Band
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Crunch
- Psychic Fangs
- Low Kick

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- Dark Pulse

Both are incredible holepunchers that can handle each other's checks. Dracovish stomps fairies with just fishous rend & Hydreigon set-ups on water absorbers. Dracovish is already the hardest hitting mon and Hydreigon is already the best set-up mon so together they are unwallable.
BUT WAIT!

It actually doesn't stop there, Hydreigon + Dracovish can be customized with many different items and still work great together. Scarf Hydreigon can be ran for Dragapult, sub Dracovish for to annoy stall, and specs Hydreigon + scarf Dracovish to annoy balance teams & HO teams. Hydreigon can also be ran on the gimmicky Pelipper Tailwind team with Dracovish, because why not have 2 speedy wallbreakers on 1 team? Both are great on webs, Hydreigon will no longer need scarf for Dragapult and Vish will have more fishous rend targets.

Still not convinced? Well they also work great with Clefable, as Clef is a great answer to Dragapult and can pass wishes to either mon since Hydreigon and Dracovish both have great bulk and decent defensive typing. They also work great with Aegislash, whom can just shadow sneak all the weakened mons late game.

I highly recommend people to try out this core. I think this might prove once & for all that maybe both mons might deserve a suspect (or just Dracovish).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1054444073
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1054411685

 

[Dragoon Rider]

While on the topic of Dracovish, here is something that I've been thinking about:

DRACOvish (Dracovish) @ Life Orb
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 176 Atk / 196 SpA / 136 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Super Fang
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic Fangs / Low Kick

Since Dracovish's switch ins are extremely obvious, you can use super fang to cut your counter's HP in half on the switch, then KO with appropriate move. IE seismitoad is at 94% after rocks, so after a super fang and leftovers its at 53%. Toxapex would be at 50% under this scenario. You can beat SpDef Ferro as well. Vaporeon still wins. Granted, protect and bunker are common. But so is a bit of chip damage.

1. 196 SpA Life Orb Dracovish Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 220-259 (53.1 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
2. 176+ Atk Life Orb Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 153-182 (50.3 - 59.8%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
3. 176+ Atk Life Orb Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Ferrothorn: 168-198 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- 24.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4. 176+ Atk Life Orb Dracovish Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Ferrothorn: 177-211 (50.2 - 59.9%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Legendary Latios]

Considering all the Dracovish talk, I figured I'd like to mention another interesting vish counter, Gyarados, notably this set that I created:
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Jolly Nature
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 34 Atk / 100 Def / 122 Spe
- Substitute
- Bounce
- Waterfall
- Outrage

Yes, I know it looks weird, but it has been fairly effective in practice. Jolly with 122 speed enables it to outspeed the most common vish, 252 adamant, making fishious rend useless, as it will do pathetic damage after intimidate+ going second, removing its massive power output. The defense and HP EVs allow give it just a 3% chance to be 2HKO'd by an intimated outrage, already an uncommon move for it to initiate with, before rocks, and while it is a guaranteed 2HKO after rocks, it can be mitigated with substitute and again, vish being choice locked onto a different move. 34 attack just allows it to deal some extra damage. While this mainly serves a secondary vish counter, it provides a solid defensive switch in that can create solid chip damage on a switch, as even without a lot of investment, 125 attack is still something to be reckoned with.

It is also a good soft check to Corviknight, toad, and drill. If you swap in EQ over bounce, he checks aegislash, pex, and cinderace better. However, it is a decent physical defensive switch in because intimidate is a great ability.

I mostly use it as a secondary check along with seismitoad, who I found to be a bit underwhelming, but water absorb is kind of needed in the current meta. However, I've felt like it has done more work on the team than toad due to greater defensive utility and the general offensive presence of gyarados. Granted, I'm in the early stages of testing this set, but it is fairly unexpected in nature (defensive vs offensive gyarados isn't very common) and it doesn't have the normal attacking power, but I've been happy with the results and I'm interested to hear your feedback.

 

[Dragoon Rider]

Considering all the Dracovish talk, I figured I'd like to mention another interesting vish counter, Gyarados, notably this set that I created:
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Jolly Nature
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 34 Atk / 100 Def / 122 Spe
- Substitute
- Bounce
- Waterfall
- Outrage

Yes, I know it looks weird, but it has been fairly effective in practice. Jolly with 122 speed enables it to outspeed the most common vish, 252 adamant, making fishious rend useless, as it will do pathetic damage after intimidate+ going second, removing its massive power output. The defense and HP EVs allow give it just a 3% chance to be 2HKO'd by an intimated outrage, already an uncommon move for it to initiate with, before rocks, and while it is a guaranteed 2HKO after rocks, it can be mitigated with substitute and again, vish being choice locked onto a different move. 34 attack just allows it to deal some extra damage. While this mainly serves a secondary vish counter, it provides a solid defensive switch in that can create solid chip damage on a switch, as even without a lot of investment, 125 attack is still something to be reckoned with.

It is also a good soft check to Corviknight, toad, and drill. If you swap in EQ over bounce, he checks aegislash, pex, and cinderace better. However, it is a decent physical defensive switch in because intimidate is a great ability.

I mostly use it as a secondary check along with seismitoad, who I found to be a bit underwhelming, but water absorb is kind of needed in the current meta. However, I've felt like it has done more work on the team than toad due to greater defensive utility and the general offensive presence of gyarados. Granted, I'm in the early stages of testing this set, but it is fairly unexpected in nature (defensive vs offensive gyarados isn't very common) and it doesn't have the normal attacking power, but I've been happy with the results and I'm interested to hear your feedback.

Sub Gyara is extremely underrated. Once dmax was banned everyone assumed it would just be bad and stopped using it, but it's really good. You should definitely be running dragon dance. Dragon Dance / Substitute / Waterfall / Bounce is very good except that haze is a bit of a pest (but vaporeon and pex cann't even 2HKO your sub with scald and you can go for para hax with bounce). For the EVs I would change them a bit to 248 HP / 12 Atk / 108 Def / 140 Spe. This stops -1 Corviknight from breaking your sub and allows you to outspeed modest Dragapult at +1.

I've used DD / Waterfall / Bounce / Taunt with lum berry as well since you beat haze users quicker provided you avoid two scald burns for long enough. You risk burn in exchange for beating haze outright.

 

[Kioskate]

Considering all the Dracovish talk, I figured I'd like to mention another interesting vish counter, Gyarados, notably this set that I created:
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Jolly Nature
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 34 Atk / 100 Def / 122 Spe
- Substitute
- Bounce
- Waterfall
- Outrage

Yes, I know it looks weird, but it has been fairly effective in practice. Jolly with 122 speed enables it to outspeed the most common vish, 252 adamant, making fishious rend useless, as it will do pathetic damage after intimidate+ going second, removing its massive power output. The defense and HP EVs allow give it just a 3% chance to be 2HKO'd by an intimated outrage, already an uncommon move for it to initiate with, before rocks, and while it is a guaranteed 2HKO after rocks, it can be mitigated with substitute and again, vish being choice locked onto a different move. 34 attack just allows it to deal some extra damage. While this mainly serves a secondary vish counter, it provides a solid defensive switch in that can create solid chip damage on a switch, as even without a lot of investment, 125 attack is still something to be reckoned with.

It is also a good soft check to Corviknight, toad, and drill. If you swap in EQ over bounce, he checks aegislash, pex, and cinderace better. However, it is a decent physical defensive switch in because intimidate is a great ability.

I mostly use it as a secondary check along with seismitoad, who I found to be a bit underwhelming, but water absorb is kind of needed in the current meta. However, I've felt like it has done more work on the team than toad due to greater defensive utility and the general offensive presence of gyarados. Granted, I'm in the early stages of testing this set, but it is fairly unexpected in nature (defensive vs offensive gyarados isn't very common) and it doesn't have the normal attacking power, but I've been happy with the results and I'm interested to hear your feedback.

Pretty sure the reason it looks weird is the EV's aren't divisible by 4. Leftovers seems pretty bad for a defensive pivot that's weak to rocks and I really don't think you should run Bounce and Outrage on the same set.

34 Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 99-117 (23.9 - 28.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
34 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Corviknight: 103-123 (25.7 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

If you ever show outrage then for the rest of the game Seismitoad gets to come in and use Stealth Rocks or throw out Scalds and Toxics and you let Corviknight come in to Defog or U-Turn. Toxapex and Ferrothorn come in to set their hazards too. I think you're overestimating how strong uninvested, unboosted 125 Atk is.

If you really want to dedicate a moveslot for Dracovish I would use Thunder Wave. Even if you do Outrage to kill it you're probably just going to be revenge killed or worse set up on and lose the game.

Gyarados @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 152 HP / 236 Def / 120 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Power Whip
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt

252+ Atk Dracovish Outrage vs. 152 HP / 236 Def Gyarados: 156-184 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

You outspeed Dracovish, don't take Rocks, and are never 2HKO. Thunderwave and Waterfall mean you can try to flinch down Clefable and Corviknight if needed while Power Whip kills Seismitoad. Taunt seems like it would be better than Sub for breaking down fat mons and you don't really gain much from being behind a Sub as a bulky pivot anyway.

It's not strictly better though. If you really want to gamble that you can keep Rocks off you can use leftovers and avoiding the 2HKO on Dracovish does come at the cost of some special bulk.

252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 152 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 179-212 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 179-212 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO

 

[Marowhacker]

more adventures in mid ladder! here's what i've been using to some success(?)

Sigilyph @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Heat Wave
- Psyshock
- Roost

A pretty fun alternative to LO clef, Sig has solid coverage and can reliably chip away at things like pex, ferro and corviknight. It's definitely frailer than clef and pretty much has to pair with something to beat hydrei, dragapult and rotoms - from experience I've found it to be inconsistent but really useful as a cleanup mon. Also, it's basically a hard counter to conk and other fighting types, since most of them ended up losing knock off. It's better than I thought it would be in practice for sure.

Rotom-Heat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Overheat

Not really sure how standard this is, but been having a lot of fun using this set. Bring this in on something like a corvi or on a choiced mon to scare them out with the threat of a volt, put up the sub and set up. Having the sub up even if you don't plot is fantastic just to get a free overheat off against something and a +2 overheat kills pretty much everything. Toad is a problem, but if you don't need Rotom for much you can always sack it off and get around 60% off on it.

This is the team I've been using: https://pokepast.es/15b023cdb2dd30fb
Obviously not perfect (no scarfer lol) but some standout mons

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

seriously bro this shit is gone on for far too fucking long. can we just ban dugtrio already this shit is so bad and honestly it's straight embarrassing that national dex did it before the most popular tier what is the hold up.

 

[Finchinator]

seriously bro this shit is gone on for far too fucking long. can we just ban dugtrio already this shit is so bad and honestly it's straight embarrassing that national dex did it before the most popular tier what is the hold up.

nah

 

[Yung Dramps]

nah

Haha, very funny, now can you actually provide some reasoning? I've been trying to get a good explanation for why at least Dugtrio hasn't been purged and so far nothing has come up. I really wanna hear a good explanation on why AT is fundamentally different from Shadow Tag, that's all I am asking for. If SPL is just so precious that it can't be disrupted via a ban on this stupid ability even when everyone wants it gone, just say so. I'm all ears.