Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

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Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
your reasons for attempting to justify dynamax are utterly ridiculous. I feel like youre just out here trolling or just legitimately bad at the game but either way I dont care. I also dont give a fuck if rain or sun is affected, that's gamefreaks decision and that's the game. you shouldnt be relying on dynamax moves to set sun anyway thats a dumb strategy.
stop this foolishness
 
Hello, fellow Smogonites! I would like to present my opinion on the whole Dynamax issue, as well as my opinion on the meta at large. Let's start with Dynamax since that seems to be the biggest cause for concern. I personally think that we should treat Dynamaxed Pokémon like our fallen friends, the Megas. This is because Dynamax is what's pushing Gyarados, Excadrill, Hawlucha, and G-Darmanitan over the edge. We can ban
Dynamax on these Pokémon to attempt to solve the current issues, and if any of them are still busted, Ubers exists.

130[1].png

Gyarados is perhaps the face of our Dynamax woes (other than Ditto, of course) simply because it is unbeatable if its user is
good. Max Airstream's busted with Dragon Dance and Moxie, so Dynamax Gyarados would be an easy Uber in my proposal.
555-g[1].png

I love using this guy, but he is also a bit ridiculous. Gorilla Tactics is hilariously busted in combination with Dynamax because Dynamax removes the Choice lock. There are two ways this can go. Either Gorilla Tactics gets the boot or this Pokemon's Dynamax gets banned. Either would be acceptable, and would make this monster a tad more manageable. Either way, something's got to give with this beast.

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Remember when we thought Hawlucha would be bad this generation because there would be no Tapus? Boy, were we wrong. This thing has Max Knuckle and Max Airstream as STAB attacks when it's Dynamaxed. Combine that with Unburden's speed boost, and this thing can just annihilate almost any Pokémon. This beast is a prime example as to why my proposal would be effective, because if this beast couldn't Dynamax, it would be hardly be any better than the low-ladder nuisance that it was last generation.
530[1].png

This marauder is already frightening this generation with the Rapid Spin buff and the Dex cuts. However, under sand and with Dynamax, this thing is fast and powerful as always, but after Dynamax boosts, it also has passable bulk. The only way I can think of to stop this beast is to Dynamax yourself and set set rain or sun. Dynamax Excadrill is simply too good, but without it, Excadrill will stay top-tier, but be much healthier for the meta.
 
There’s alot of discussion for dynamaxing rn. Here’s my thoughts.

Alot of the problems from dynamaxing comes from stuff like Gyara, Lucha, Gengar, and G-Darm. But the only issue I have with dynamaxing is how difficult it is to check dynamaxed pokemons. However, its not as hard for balance teams to deal with Dmax users as people are interpreting it. Washtom counters non-Whip Gyara and Duraludon and Dracozolt are good options on more offensive teams to counter more common variants of Gyarados. G-Corsola and physically dfse Ferro are good answers to cripple Gyarados and stop a sweep. I’ve also tried out Power Swap Grimmsnarl on a balance team to handle sweepers like Lucha and Gyarados. SD Exca is stopped by unaware Quag and Corviknight with Body Press. Stuff like NP Hydra can be outsped and revenegd. Unaware Clef, and Grim are good answers to it. Counter-Dynamaxing isn’t necessary to beat dynamaxing. The real issue here is Yeti Darm. Between its unpredictability and raw power its difficult to swap into it safely. If your running HO, Scarf Darm forces you to run more than two checks to it. CB Darm OHKOs/2HKOs everything. Even stuff like Jelly and Heat are 2HKOd. Gorilla Tactics Darm is barely weaker than Mega-Cham but way stronger than Kartana. I think it should be quickbanned.
 
Here's an idea for a legitimate, competitive Pokemon Sword and Shield team:

Balanced sand team!

Typical Tyranitar + Excadrill core. The former should have a specially defensive spread and nature. Figure a Stealth Rock setter, typical moveset of Stone Edge, Crunch, maybe Superpower or Fire Blast to beat Ferrothorn or maybe Earthquake for Toxapex if needed. Excadrill would be a basic Swords Dance sweeper.

Coalossal with a physically defensive spread, Rapid Spinner. Still working out the kinks on its moveset, but perhaps Spin + Will o Wisp, Scald/Flamethrower, maybe Spikes? Stone Edge? Tough to figure that fourth move. Spread status (particularly burns) a lot and still do decent damage. Not sure if I want Leftovers or Heavy Duty Boots for an item. Probably the latter since it's going to be a Spinner. Coalossal runs with a physically defensive spread because of T Tar's sand buffing its specially defensive side. Makes it bulky on both sides.

Thinking I'd roll with a Corviknight for my fourth slot, to check Fighting types, Gyarados, and bring Excadrill in safely when I'm ready to sweep. Brave Bird/U Turn/Roost/Taunt or maybe Bulk Up to better check Gyarados.

Vikavolt might make an interesting add for this team- check bulky Waters, not be weak to Fighting types, add an additional pivot into Excadrill to sweep, form a nice VoltTurn core with Corviknight. Also adds a specially offensive wall breaker the team could use for opposing Corviknight or Toxapex if needed.

We round off the set with a very interesting firecracker- Mixed wall breaking Gengar. Think a set of Shadow Ball/Sludge Wave/Taunt/Explosion. Explosion is another way to bring Excadrill in safely. Taunt gives me a potent stallbreaker, while Gengar does Gengar things with its other two moves. This is also a strong Pokemon to Gigantomax on, open up holes in the opponent's team with oppressively strong attacks, to facilitate Excadrill's eventual sweep.

Thoughts?
 
Long post about my opinion on the state of the metagame after nearly a week of playing it.
I started playing competitive Pokemon shortly after X and Y came out. In all honesty, I don't remember Mega Evolutions and even Z moves stressing me out this much at the beginning of each respective gen than Dynamax has been for me so far.

I always had a strategy set up for an opposing Mega evolution at team preview during both 6th and 7th gen since it's pretty obvious which mega it was going to be, and most of the time, megas weren't such a dominating force in the meta that running one presented an obvious clear path to victory.

Z moves were less obvious and it wasn't blatantly shown in preview, but it wasn't too difficult to tell from the opposing team structure which mon was the Z move user. A core of Lando-T, Ferrothorn, and Clefable for example usually leaves me to believe Lando is Z-Fly (if it’s not Scarfed). You can also bait the Z move by switching out, say, your Torn-T into your Celesteela, Rotom-W, or anything else that resisted Flying-type moves and be done with it then and there. Knock Off also had a much wider distribution back then and thanks to Z crystals not being removeable, it was a great scouting tool to find the Z user. Even if you predict wrong and something else on the team was the Z move user, it wasn’t always a near-autoloss position unless you were up against something like Kartana or Shift Gear Magearna, which can both run a wide range of Z moves to check different defensive answers.

Now onto Dynamax. I’m not saying it’s currently that difficult to determine which mons will plan to Max (it’s usually Gyara, Lucha, or Drill in the current meta), but that can easily change as the events of the match unfold. Unlike Megas and Z moves, there really is no dedicated Dynamax Pokemon on a given team. For example, Sand Balances that run Drill + Gyara can easily choose which mon to Max depending on the matchup or their position in the game, or they can just Max their Ditto if they’re on the back foot of an opposing sweeper after revenging it and reverse-sweep thanks to no longer being Choice-locked.

This is all due to Dynamax not being item-limited. If you lose your Mega and/or your Z crystal holder in USUM OU, there aren’t any more of those on your team to fall back on. That’s it.

People point to the big 5 abusers of Dynamax (Gyarados, Galarian Darmanitan, Hawlucha, Excadrill, and Ditto), but in my personal opinion, banning these guys won’t be enough. Other mons WILL take their place shortly after they leave. Banded Barraskewda is near BRAINLESS when Dynamax’d if not going up against Ditto or opposing Barras. Max HP T-Tar is one of the fattest sweepers in the meta, especially behind screens but that’s not a requirement, with a wide range of coverage options to utilize when Dynamax’d. Nasty Plot Hydreigon and Gengar are both dummy strong after a boost. Even something like Charizard can steamroll teams thanks to Max Airstream and Solar Power boosting its SpA in Sun. I’ve even ran an arguable worse Belly Drum set w/ HDB + Wing Attack, Flare Blitz, and Earthquake and just swept teams with that.

Maybe I’m wrong and it is the big 5 that are the main problems with Dynamax, but I’m still in the camp, until proven otherwise, that banning these mons won’t magically make the problems in the metagame disappear. I’m also a firm believer that the big 5 won’t NEARLY be as unmanageable without Dynamax to fall back on, and I’d rather see them stay in a supposed Dynamax-less meta since they’re all cool mons with a lot to offer otherwise.

The point is, something needs to happen, preferably sooner than later. This metagame is tiring af for me to play and I'm not having fun playing it.


Here's an idea for a legitimate, competitive Pokemon Sword and Shield team:

Balanced sand team!

Typical Tyranitar + Excadrill core. The former should have a specially defensive spread and nature. Figure a Stealth Rock setter, typical moveset of Stone Edge, Crunch, maybe Superpower or Fire Blast to beat Ferrothorn or maybe Earthquake for Toxapex if needed. Excadrill would be a basic Swords Dance sweeper.

Coalossal with a physically defensive spread, Rapid Spinner. Still working out the kinks on its moveset, but perhaps Spin + Will o Wisp, Scald/Flamethrower, maybe Spikes? Stone Edge? Tough to figure that fourth move. Spread status (particularly burns) a lot and still do decent damage. Not sure if I want Leftovers or Heavy Duty Boots for an item. Probably the latter since it's going to be a Spinner. Coalossal runs with a physically defensive spread because of T Tar's sand buffing its specially defensive side. Makes it bulky on both sides.

Thinking I'd roll with a Corviknight for my fourth slot, to check Fighting types, Gyarados, and bring Excadrill in safely when I'm ready to sweep. Brave Bird/U Turn/Roost/Taunt or maybe Bulk Up to better check Gyarados.

Vikavolt might make an interesting add for this team- check bulky Waters, not be weak to Fighting types, add an additional pivot into Excadrill to sweep, form a nice VoltTurn core with Corviknight. Also adds a specially offensive wall breaker the team could use for opposing Corviknight or Toxapex if needed.

We round off the set with a very interesting firecracker- Mixed wall breaking Gengar. Think a set of Shadow Ball/Sludge Wave/Taunt/Explosion. Explosion is another way to bring Excadrill in safely. Taunt gives me a potent stallbreaker, while Gengar does Gengar things with its other two moves. This is also a strong Pokemon to Gigantomax on, open up holes in the opponent's team with oppressively strong attacks, to facilitate Excadrill's eventual sweep.

Thoughts?
Your team handles Water-types very poorly. I wouldn't run Vikavolt or Coalossal. I'd say if you want something to check waters while also providing a volturn core with Corviknight, I'd run Rotom-W instead of Vikavolt, which still gives your team a secondary Ground resist and opposing Excadrill check. If you want hazard removal, perhaps Excadrill can be your spinner or you can run something like physdef Eldegoss as your spinner in the Coalossal slot to give your team a nice Regenerator pivot against Non-Gyara Waters.
 
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Long post about my opinion on the state of the metagame after nearly a week of playing it.
I started playing competitive Pokemon shortly after X and Y came out. In all honesty, I don't remember Mega Evolutions and even Z moves stressing me out this much at the beginning of each respective gen than Dynamax has been for me so far.

I always had a strategy set up for an opposing Mega evolution at team preview during both 6th and 7th gen since it's pretty obvious which mega it was going to be, and most of the time, megas weren't such a dominating force in the meta that running one presented an obvious clear path to victory.

Z moves were less obvious and it wasn't blatantly shown in preview, but it wasn't too difficult to tell from the opposing team structure which mon was the Z move user. A core of Lando-T, Ferrothorn, and Clefable for example usually leaves me to believe Lando is Z-Fly (if it’s not Scarfed). You can also bait the Z move by switching out, say, your Torn-T into your Celesteela, Rotom-W, or anything else that resisted Flying-type moves and be done with it then and there. Knock Off also had a much wider distribution back then and thanks to Z crystals not being removeable, it was a great scouting tool to find the Z user. Even if you predict wrong and something else on the team was the Z move user, it wasn’t always a near-autoloss position unless you were up against something like Kartana or Shift Gear Magearna, which can both run a wide range of Z moves to check different defensive answers.

Now onto Dynamax. I’m not saying it’s currently that difficult to determine which mons will plan to Max (it’s usually Gyara, Lucha, or Drill in the current meta), but that can easily change as the events of the match unfold. Unlike Megas and Z moves, there really is no dedicated Dynamax Pokemon on a given team. For example, Sand Balances that run Drill + Gyara can easily choose which mon to Max depending on the matchup or their position in the game, or they can just Max their Ditto if they’re on the back foot of an opposing sweeper after revenging it and reverse-sweep thanks to no longer being Choice-locked.

This is all due to Dynamax not being item-limited. If you lose your Mega and/or your Z crystal holder in USUM OU, there aren’t any more of those on your team to fall back on. That’s it.

People point to the big 5 abusers of Dynamax (Gyarados, Galarian Darmanitan, Hawlucha, Excadrill, and Ditto), but in my personal opinion, banning these guys won’t be enough. Other mons WILL take their place shortly after they leave. Banded Barraskewda is near BRAINLESS when Dynamax’d if not going up against Ditto or opposing Barras. Max HP T-Tar is one of the fattest sweepers in the meta, especially behind screens but that’s not a requirement, with a wide range of coverage options to utilize when Dynamax’d. Nasty Plot Hydreigon and Gengar are both dummy strong after a boost. Even something like Charizard can steamroll teams thanks to Max Airstream and Solar Power boosting its SpA in Sun. I’ve even ran an arguable worse Belly Drum set w/ HDB + Wing Attack, Flare Blitz, and Earthquake and just swept teams with that.

Maybe I’m wrong and it is the big 5 that are the main problems with Dynamax, but I’m still in the camp, until proven otherwise, that banning these mons won’t magically make the problems in the metagame disappear. I’m also a firm believer that the big 5 won’t NEARLY be as unmanageable without Dynamax to fall back on, and I’d rather see them stay in a supposed Dynamax-less meta since they’re all cool mons with a lot to offer otherwise.

The point is, something needs to happen, preferably sooner than later. This metagame is tiring af for me to play and I'm not having fun playing it.
I would like to point out that Ditto is mainly used to counteract other Dynamax users. Therefore, it cannot be broken without the rest of the Big 5 being so, which they are. Therefore, Ditto needs to stay if we are to even be able to tolerate Dynamax. The others probably won’t be busted without their Dynamaxes, and the inevitable replacements probably won’t be as unhealthy.
tl;dr: Ban Dynamax on Gyara, Exca, Lucha, and G-Darm
 

Ema Skye

Work!
I don’t like the idea of just banning DMax on single mons, because it would be needlessly complex for a ban and, as a result, totally unprecedented. We should not be concerned with keeping everything in OU in this early stage of the meta.

If a mechanic makes a mon too centralizing, I only see two options: ban the mechanic, or ban the mon. Back in Gen5, we didn’t ban Sand Rush on Excadrill when it was too strong (while Sand Rush Stoutland was not), and we didn’t ban Speed Boost on Blaziken when it was too strong (while Ninjask was not). Or in Gen6, we didn’t ban Protean Greninja when it was too strong (while Protean Kecleon was trash). In all three cases, we banned the individual Pokémon because even though the mechanic made the Pokémon broken, the mechanic in and of itself was not.

On the flipside, it was determined in Gen6 that Swagger and Baton Pass were OP mechanics, and they while they were very strong on certain Pokémon (Klefki and Espeon), enough other Pokémon could also make use of the mechanic that the moves were banned, rather than the individual Pokémon.

In the event dynamax is not banned, I would much prefer we ban the individual Pokémon (Gyara, Lucha, GDarm, Barra, Drill) than creating a complex proposal where only certain Pokémon can use a mechanic. As we saw with DrizzleSwim bans or the many bans that attempted to weaken Baton Pass, the complex bans end up needlessly confusing (and in the case of Baton Pass, show that we’ll likely just end up banning the mechanic in the future).
 
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I don’t like the idea of just banning DMax on single mons, because it would be needlessly complex for a ban and, as a result, totally unprecedented. We should not be concerned with keeping everything in OU in this early stage of the meta.

If a mechanic makes a mon too centralizing, I only see two options: ban the mechanic, or ban the mon. Back in Gen5, we didn’t ban Sand Rush on Excadrill when it was too strong (while Sand Rush Stoutland was not), and we didn’t ban Speed Boost on Blaziken when it was too strong (while Ninjask was not). Or in Gen6, we didn’t ban Protean Greninja when it was too strong (while Protean Kecleon was trash). In all three cases, we banned the individual Pokémon because even though the mechanic made the Pokémon broken, the mechanic in and of itself was not.

On the flipside, it was determined in Gen6 that Swagger and Baton Pass were OP mechanics, and they while they were very strong on certain Pokémon (Klefki and Espeon), enough other Pokémon could also make use of the mechanic that the moves were banned, rather than the individual Pokémon.

In the event dynamax is not banned, I would much prefer we ban the individual Pokémon (Gyara, Lucha, GDarm, Barra, Drill) than creating a complex proposal where only certain Pokémon can use a mechanic. As we saw with DrizzleSwim bans or the many bans that attempted to weaken Baton Pass, the complex bans end up needlessly confusing (and in the case of Baton Pass, show that we’ll likely just end up banning the mechanic in the future).
While I like this idea, the council members in this thread have made it very clear that they do not want to do multiple bans on specific dynamax pokemon. On top of that the list of really good dynamax users we have right now are not the only ones that can dominate metas. For example Salazzle could also be really destructive, getting +1 Sp. Attack from Poison dynamax and setting sun for itself. Give it a scarf and once dynamax is over it could very reasonably be at +2 Sp Att +1 speed (because of scarf) and in the sun. As a whole I think this process would take too long and be way too devisive for it to be realistically acheived.
 
There’s alot of discussion for dynamaxing rn. Here’s my thoughts.
Yeah, you're right about countering; there is an answer to everything, but I think a major problem is how costly it is to counter, or potentially even impossible depending on the circumstances eg Substitute. On top of that, anything at all can dmax, so if I see your team counters one or two of my candidates, I'll just use another one or get rid of your only chance at a reversal. If you manage to KO a Gyarados with a hard read or while it's setting up, I can still just dmax my Excadrill, or Darm, or anything else. Pulling off a read and KOing a potential dmax sweeper feels much less rewarding than KOing your opponent's mega. Surviving or stopping a dmax sweep doesn't feel good either, it's just a momentary relief; now I have to try and win with a number deficit after having my team hole-punched. All of this can be said about normal sweeping, but normal sweeps are much easier to stop and don't snowball anywhere near as hard.

Dmax moves (and Z-moves honestly) ignore what I thought was the fundamental philosophy behind Pokémon move design all this time; moves with desirable side effects are weaker, strong moves have downsides like HP/stat recoil or poor accuracy. Signature moves are allowed to break this trend, but only because of their unique distribution. Discharge, Thunderbolt, Volt Switch and Thunder are all Electric attacks, but the player gets to make interesting teambuilding and battle decisions based on their respective power, accuracy and effects. Max Knuckle isn't a move I chose based on its functionality, there's no way for me to express my playstyle through it. It's just a big boy strong move that was given to me automatically because I clicked the thicc button.

This sentiment was voiced earlier in thread, but what's most telling about dmax to me is how I've only ever seen people criticize it, or say it's "not completely unmanageable". I've never seen someone say "dynamax is good fun and I am glad it is in the game" outside of people enjoying the utter chaos of a bonkers early meta (can't blame 'em for that). It's pretty apparent that most would agree being on the receiving end of a dmax sweep is not fun, but I'd go one step further and say executing a dmax sweep isn't much fun either. It just feels effortless and flowcharty imo, thanks to the free stat boosts and effects. Especially once you've already taken out a counter or two, or even if you just blow through your counters with sheer firepower (lol), the rest of the match becomes a formality and it feels like a waste of both players' time to keep going.

I'm just a low tier scrub so the exchange rate for my 2 cents is very low, and I know I've just been talking about feelings this whole time ('not fun' is a pretty unsubstantial argument) but I have been lurking for ten years and I'm not seeing much excitement and positivity towards this gen's signature mechanic and I think that's a bad sign. I'm not even 100% opposed to dmax; I actually really enjoy the Cold War-style jockeying before either player has dmaxed, it's like having a revolver in the middle of a poker table.

Once a dmax shift actually happens though, it makes me feel like CJ from San Andreas.
 
Discharge, Thunderbolt, Volt Switch and Thunder are all Electric attacks, but the player gets to make interesting teambuilding and battle decisions based on their respective power, accuracy and effects. Max Knuckle isn't a move I chose based on its functionality, there's no way for me to express my playstyle through it. It's just a big boy strong move that was given to me automatically because I clicked the thicc button.
[/QUOTE]

I really like this point!

That said, where is the fine line between what is "competitive" and what is "fun"? Are we going to consider isolating something away from the meta because it isn't as fun?

You note that "fun" is subjective, but do we take measures against something because it causes folks to leave the meta in droves?

If we do, then I agree; dynamaxing needs to go.

Aside from the fun aspect, I'm firmly in the ban camp for dynamaxing. It is unhealthy, diminishes the skill factor of playing competitively, and it oppressess slower overall team builds and begins to constrain what's viable and what isn't too much. When Imposter Ditto becomes somewhat of a requirement to not get steamrolled... Wasn't that like saying Scarved Greninja (a Pokemon who otherwise wanted numerous other items) being a good check to Mega Salamence made Mega Mence okay for OU?
 
I have a proposition that might help balance out the Level of power Dynamax can bring to the table. I want to start off by saying though that i think outright banning Dynamax at this time is a tad rash. With every new gimmick there will be abusers of said gimmick, and assuming Game freak doesn't bring Mega's and Z-moves in later series, we can assume that Dynamax has a 2-3 year shelf life (assuming gen 9 comes out then). I, for one, am against outright banning a mechanic this early into its life without exploring more options of counter play, game play interactions, and movesets. And in regards to Gigantimax, most of those mons are weaker than regular Dynamax counter parts.

Now to my proposition. Clearly mons like Gyarados, Excadrill, and Hawlucha are prime abusers of Dynamax that can snowball. The biggest complaint i'm seeing isn't so much these mons as it is the potential for these mons to be the Dynamax user. Slap 3 of them on the same team and have fun guessing, if it even is or will be them to Dynamax. So what if instead of banning the mechanic, we augment when it can be used?

In prior gens, Mega evolved pokemon were known because only a select few could Mega Evolve. In battle spot it was common to bring multiple mega users and make your opponent guess which mega they would bring/use. For Z- moves it was a once use nuke that anything could use, but since it was a super move, you would almost never see defensive mons like Toxapex utlize them in such a way.

Due to Dynamax being as free of use like Z-moves and not having the exclusivity of mega stones (not counting Gigantimax forms), I propose something that will make Gigantimax slightly better than Dynamax in when its used. What if we regulate the use of Dynamax as a comeback mechanic, only to be accessible by the last remaining party member? Meaning, in order to access the mechanic, 5 of your 6 pokemon need to be ko'd. Let's face it, unless taking another Dynamax user head on, there are few chances currently that having a defensive pokemon Dynamax is better than an offensive one. This would preserve the mechanic, while also promoting smarter play with when you switch out your pokemon.

Here is an example scenario. You have remaining a U-turn/Volt switch user on the field and a scarfed Jolteon as your only other remaing team member. The opponent has a Pokemon on the field that you outspeed and a Hawlucha as their last. When the oppoents pokemon goes down, Hawlucha is free to Dynamax, however you can't since you have 2 mons left. However, if you ko with U-turn and pivot into Scarf Jolteon, you will have the type advantage and potential speed advantage, but not the Dynamax advantage. The opponent has the mon deficit and type disadvantage, but they have Dynamax as a potential crutch to make a comeback. Should Hawlucha succeed in defeating Jolteon, now you can Dynamax.

Now for Gigantimax. As far as i'm concerned, these should be viewed the same as Mega's, powerful yet predictable. Like mega's, some are simply better than others. Dynamax Coalossal can set up sand with its rock max move while G-Max version sets up a rock version of fire spin. Clearly one is inferior to the other. That said, both Dynamax and Gmax are possible in game. So to resolve this issue, let's actually treat Gigantimax pokemon like mega's under certain condtions. Much like when choosing if a Pokemon is shiny, we allow the mons that can Gigantimax the ability to become those forms by choice - they are either Dynamax or Giganatimax. Assuming the first idea i had about Dynamax being a last stand mechanic became a reality, let's make Gigantimax forms be the exception to the rule. Pokemon that can Gigantimax can do so at any time during a battle, however they must become their Gigantimax form. This would be akin to having multiple pokemon in your party that can mega evolve, but only one can. You don't know if it's coming, but you can spot the threats that can. In turn, this would mean that should a mon Gigantimax, the problem children like Hawlucha and Gyarados can't. It gives players the flexibility to change a match on the fly, while limiting what can snowball.

In short, this idea could preserve Dynamax while creating an interesting meta, while mitigating set up pokemon from snowballing after a boost or 2 midgame. Weather setters would still need to fufuil their roles, sweepers would still be threating, and defensive dynamax to buy time for chip damage and/or boosting moves would be better.

Edit: I would also like to add that my argument in no way impacts ways of dealing with Dynamax. You can't phase out a Dynamax or stall it with flinches. While you can switch out your Dynamax in game, it isnt Dynamax upon switch in. That would be like having a + 6 Attack and Speed Charizard on the field and switching out because the opponent sent out a rock type.
 
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chimp

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I have a proposition that might help balance out the Level of power Dynamax can bring to the table. I want to start off by saying though that i think outright banning Dynamax at this time is a tad rash. With every new gimmick there will be abusers of said gimmick, and assuming Game freak doesn't bring Mega's and Z-moves in later series, we can assume that Dynamax has a 2-3 year shelf life (assuming gen 9 comes out then). I, for one, am against outright banning a mechanic this early into its life without exploring more options of counter play, game play interactions, and movesets. And in regards to Gigantimax, most of those mons are weaker than regular Dynamax counter parts.

Now to my proposition. Clearly mons like Gyarados, Excadrill, and Hawlucha are prime abusers of Dynamax that can snowball. The biggest complaint i'm seeing isn't so much these mons as it is the potential for these mons to be the Dynamax user. Slap 3 of them on the same team and have fun guessing, if it even is or will be them to Dynamax. So what if instead of banning the mechanic, we augment when it can be used?

In prior gens, Mega evolved pokemon were known because only a select few could Mega Evolve. In battle spot it was common to bring multiple mega users and make your opponent guess which mega they would bring/use. For Z- moves it was a once use nuke that anything could use, but since it was a super move, you would almost never see defensive mons like Toxapex utlize them in such a way.

Due to Dynamax being as free of use like Z-moves and not having the exclusivity of mega stones (not counting Gigantimax forms), I propose something that will make Gigantimax slightly better than Dynamax in when its used. What if we regulate the use of Dynamax as a comeback mechanic, only to be accessible by the last remaining party member? Meaning, in order to access the mechanic, 5 of your 6 pokemon need to be ko'd. Let's face it, unless taking another Dynamax user head on, there are few chances currently that having a defensive pokemon Dynamax is better than an offensive one. This would preserve the mechanic, while also promoting smarter play with when you switch out your pokemon.

Here is an example scenario. You have remaining a U-turn/Volt switch user on the field and a scarfed Jolteon as your only other remaing team member. The opponent has a Pokemon on the field that you outspeed and a Hawlucha as their last. When the oppoents pokemon goes down, Hawlucha is free to Dynamax, however you can't since you have 2 mons left. However, if you ko with U-turn and pivot into Scarf Jolteon, you will have the type advantage and potential speed advantage, but not the Dynamax advantage. The opponent has the mon deficit and type disadvantage, but they have Dynamax as a potential crutch to make a comeback. Should Hawlucha succeed in defeating Jolteon, now you can Dynamax.

Now for Gigantimax. As far as i'm concerned, these should be viewed the same as Mega's, powerful yet predictable. Like mega's, some are simply better than others. Dynamax Coalossal can set up sand with its rock max move while G-Max version sets up a rock version of fire spin. Clearly one is inferior to the other. That said, both Dynamax and Gmax are possible in game. So to resolve this issue, let's actually treat Gigantimax pokemon like mega's under certain condtions. Much like when choosing if a Pokemon is shiny, we allow the mons that can Gigantimax the ability to become those forms by choice - they are either Dynamax or Giganatimax. Assuming the first idea i had about Dynamax being a last stand mechanic became a reality, let's make Gigantimax forms be the exception to the rule. Pokemon that can Gigantimax can do so at any time during a battle, however they must become their Gigantimax form. This would be akin to having multiple pokemon in your party that can mega evolve, but only one can. You don't know if it's coming, but you can spot the threats that can. In turn, this would mean that should a mon Gigantimax, the problem children like Hawlucha and Gyarados can't. It gives players the flexibility to change a match on the fly, while limiting what can snowball.

In short, this idea could preserve Dynamax while creating an interesting meta, while mitigating set up pokemon from snowballing after a boost or 2 midgame. Weather setters would still need to fufuil their roles, sweepers would still be threating, and defensive dynamax to buy time for chip damage and/or boosting moves would be better.
Generally speaking we try our best to avoid overly complicated rules like that. I'm not necessarily saying your solution is a bad one per se, but its a little too complex. That might not seem like a problem, but given what Smogon is and what we try to do, and given the sheer quantity of those who play by smogon rulesets, sometimes the best path to take is also the most simple one. Furthermore, I don't really see what this solution would achieve. If you're going to limit D-maxing to the last Pokemon only, why not just ban it? Even if its a last stand ability, it doesn't actually really solve the problem regarding Gyarados and Hawlucha and others, and the best strategy for approaching a match would be to just position yourself so that either of those threats end up being your last Pokemon standing. Not saying that would be the best strat available, but the alternative would just mean Dynamaxing is basically useless, and if that were the case, you might as well just have banned it in the first place. I don't think your idea is terrible, or even bad, but I don't think its very feasible, either.
 
What if we regulate the use of Dynamax as a comeback mechanic, only to be accessible by the last remaining party member?
This would be a mechanic not present in the original games. The goal of the official tiers is to be true to the official games and their mechanics. That's why I propose, like some others on this thread have done, a tier with and a tier without Dynamax. I understand that being in the official games makes a ban seem inauthentic, but due to how unpredictable Dynamaxing is, it would make for a good unofficial metagame, which could coincidentally be played nearly as much as an official metagame.
 
Generally speaking we try our best to avoid overly complicated rules like that. I'm not necessarily saying your solution is a bad one per se, but its a little too complex. That might not seem like a problem, but given what Smogon is and what we try to do, and given the sheer quantity of those who play by smogon rulesets, sometimes the best path to take is also the most simple one. Furthermore, I don't really see what this solution would achieve. If you're going to limit D-maxing to the last Pokemon only, why not just ban it? Even if its a last stand ability, it doesn't actually really solve the problem regarding Gyarados and Hawlucha and others, and the best strategy for approaching a match would be to just position yourself so that either of those threats end up being your last Pokemon standing. Not saying that would be the best strat available, but the alternative would just mean Dynamaxing is basically useless, and if that were the case, you might as well just have banned it in the first place. I don't think your idea is terrible, or even bad, but I don't think its very feasible, either.
Completely understandable, I didn't propose my argument as so much a " cure all" but as sort of a bridge between both Pro and Anti Dynamax camps. However, this is what Pokemon has become for generation 8 outside of Showdown. With over 400 mons culled from the game, even if Dynamax is an unfair mechanic in many ways, its still a massive new part of the game. Unlike in prior generations where things have been outright banned for being unfair like Evasion and Baton Pass, those were things people could bring to the game. You weren't forced too. Dynamax is different in that sense, for those playing on cartrage it is quite literally not pressing the big red button if it were banned.

This would be a mechanic not present in the original games. The goal of the official tiers is to be true to the official games and their mechanics. That's why I propose, like some others on this thread have done, a tier with and a tier without Dynamax. I understand that being in the official games makes a ban seem inauthentic, but due to how unpredictable Dynamaxing is, it would make for a good unofficial metagame, which could coincidentally be played nearly as much as an official metagame.
I agree with the separate tiering's idea, in fact i fully support it.
 
That said, both Dynamax and Gmax are possible in game. So to resolve this issue, let's actually treat Gigantimax pokemon like mega's under certain condtions. Much like when choosing if a Pokemon is shiny, we allow the mons that can Gigantimax the ability to become those forms by choice - they are either Dynamax or Giganatimax. Assuming the first idea i had about Dynamax being a last stand mechanic became a reality, let's make Gigantimax forms be the exception to the rule. Pokemon that can Gigantimax can do so at any time during a battle, however they must become their Gigantimax form.
This is actually already how it works. In-game, each individual mon has a flag for whether or not it can Gigantimax. If that flag is set to true, then that mon will ALWAYS Gigantimax. On Showdown, this is solved by splitting the mons up into different forms, like "Charizard" and "Charizard-Gmax". The two forms are functionally identical, except that one can Dynamax, while the other can Gigantimax (also, once Home drops, the Gmax forms won't have access to legacy moves).

Banning certain Pokemon species from Dynamaxing isn't necessarily without precedent. In gens 6 and 7 Ubers, a Rayquaza with Dragon Ascent isn't allowed to Mega Evolve, even though there would technically be nothing stopping it from doing so on cart. However, I still think banning certain Pokemon species from Dynamaxing is a bad idea. It's much simpler to communicate that "Mega Rayquaza is banned" than "Dynamaxing is banned on [insert long list of Pokemon]".
 
Sorry to interrupt your never-ending Dynamax argument.


Crustle @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 Def
- Shell Smash
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Counter

Shout out to all the Crustle fans in the audience. I wanna talk about the combination of Heavy Duty Boots + Sturdy. This gives a combination that is similar to Focus Sash + Magic Guard by ignoring hazard damage to preserve your Sturdy and can be useful on hyper offense sort of teams, or teams that don't really bother with hazard control. Crustle can come in at any point in the game and ignore hazards and set up safely, after a boost it outspeeds every unboosted mon besides Dragapult. I also gave it Counter, cause like Sash Counter Alakazam, it can use it to end any physical sweeps prematurely. The main concern is Dynamax though, since most Dynamaxed sweepers have enough HP that they're not OHKO'd by Counter, but it's the thought that counts. It's also immune to Sandstorm, probably the most common type of passive damage right now.

I know I'm not the only one who's thought of this, cause I saw some guy using Sawk, who also gets Sturdy and Counter, but better speed. Although it doesn't look like any of the Sturdy users will hack it in OU I just had to share this ballin combo. As the lower tiers develop I think you could expect to see stuff like this a lot (especially if Dynamax goes).

edit: I see you liking this Thunder Pwoell
 
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Hey! This is my first gen 8 post talking about the metagame, Im not gonna be talking about my opinion on Dynamaxing, but ima be sharing a team and a mon that i feel like is incredibly broken and a certain set that i feel like it seems really ubsurd that i came across talking about with cleann

Dracovish.png

Dracovish @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- Ice Fang

I feel like this set under rain is incredibly broken, I know pepole have tried Choice Banded & Choice Scarf before but with a Adamant Nature you do really dumb stuff like 2hko Toxapex & Ferrothorn with your stab, and with scarf & a Adamant nature you still out-speed alot of mons,

+1 252+ Atk Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 76-90 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Rain: 84-99 (46.6 - 55%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

here's a team i made with it, and a extra team i have been using recently.

Drednaw G-Max.png
Peli.png
Ferro.png
Dracovish.png
Craw.png
Toad.png

https://pastebin.com/9YfrPCM8

Really fun rain team that just abuses everything. No Barraskewda because i actually feel like Drednaw offers the role off a physical Rain sweeper better on this team because of Swords Dance making it harder to play around and having a emergency flying resist and outspeeding +1 Gyarados rain and threatning it with a stab Stone Edge, Specs Peliper is a tech i have been using its the best set imo, has no switch ins and can go on a rampage when Dynamaxed with Max Air-stream boosting speed. Ferrothorn is a staple on rain and soft checks alot of stuff like Gyarados with Toxic wearing it down for Priority later. Dracovish is just a faster version of my next member with Adamant Choice Scarf rounding around like 120 speed still? Banded Craw is amazing on rain and is a very good mon in general, I have even tried Life Orb SD, Banded Jet in Rain gets alot of neutral kills vs alot of frailer Pokemon and Picks off Weakened Pokemon such as Gyarados which is Huge, Banded Crabhammer is just a kill button and the Specs Peliper, Banded Crawdaunt & Scarf Adamant Dracovish pretty much covers most forms of fat while Dracovish, Life Orb G-Max Drednaw Banded Jet From Crawdaunt can threaten most Offense teams. Seismitoad is my last member as i feel Life Orb Seismitoad is a important member on rain as it threatens Toxapex stops Volt Switch Spam, esp from like Choice Scarf Rotom and is a pretty decent Stealth Rocker.

Diggersby.png
Mew.png
Grimsnarl.png
Lucha.png
Aegi.png
Gyrados.png

https://pastebin.com/y2n8YbQD

A Hyper Offense I made like the first few days i started playing this meta-game, SD Life Orb Diggersby is really nice imo, Edge Quake pretty much hits everything and Max Rockfall nukes switch ins like Rotom-Wash & Corviknight. Lead Mew gets everything up as long as you dont face Court Change which ends up with Aegislash sweeping most of the time, Screens Grim is extremely good honestly, you get it up vs everything because you prankster taunt, Play Rough hits dark types like Mandibuzz, Hawlucha is broken so thats why its there LMFAO, Throat Chop hits ghosts like Aegislash & Dynamaxed kills everything, Life Orb SD Aegislash is amazing on Offense teams and Head Smash nukes Mandibuzz which is really annoying for this type of team, Gyrados is broken and screens helps it not get cheesed by like scarf Rotom-Wash and Ditto, Sub under screens lets it turn a lot of Pokemon into Set Up Fodder such as Ferrothorn and trolls Rotom-Wash & Ditto even more.
 
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Could we maybe get a separate thread for the Dynamax argument? I think it's absolutely something that should be discussed (I'm personally waiting to see what happens before I get too into this generation's competitive,) but this thread has had very little actual metagame discussion. Seems like it would make sense to split the side-conversation elsewhere.
 
Could we maybe get a separate thread for the Dynamax argument? I think it's absolutely something that should be discussed (I'm personally waiting to see what happens before I get too into this generation's competitive,) but this thread has had very little actual metagame discussion. Seems like it would make sense to split the side-conversation elsewhere.
It's pretty much impossible to do that since Dynamaxing is so central to the metagame, even more than Weather Wars in Gen 5.
 
Dynamax was fun in the beginning of the metagame but now that the novelty wore off it's just a chore imo. There's lots of games where u find yourself up like 5 - 2 but need to be very careful not to give hawlucha/gyara a free turn as it could SD and proceed to sweep through your team w a dynamax, while being unrevengable due to the HP boost. Id rather just play normal pokemon without the gimmicks. Honestly if it were up to me I'd prob want to ban dmax while keeping gmax (as its the featured gimmick of gen8), that way we could at least know which mon we need to worry about while also not getting swept by random mons getting +3 speed off of max airstreams.

Other than that, Dracovish and Toxtricity seem great rn, being able to just demolish certain fat teams w Rend and Boom/Overdrive spam. I wonder if the rise of Vish will make ppl autoinclude water absorb on their teams now lmao as its the only way to take hits from that thing. Hatterene is also great, comes in for free on pex, almost for free on ferro/corsola, tough to switch into, powerful under TR - best bet at checking it defensively are fat mons that it cant hit SE and can recover while damaging it in turn (spdef hippo for example, which ive been liking on sand).

Darm is just insane, such a good fast pivot and revenge killer w it's scarf set which i honestly prefer to CB. I also think it pairs well w banded arctovish to break fat waters that wanna switch in to darms icicle crash. I've been seeing abit more Cinderace as well, although it hasn't impressed me as much as I expected in the beginning. I like the boots set but I think it really needs protean to start being an actual threat. Court change is great, but u need a spinner to fully abuse it and apart from drill there arent many viable ones sadly.
 
Could we maybe get a separate thread for the Dynamax argument? I think it's absolutely something that should be discussed (I'm personally waiting to see what happens before I get too into this generation's competitive,) but this thread has had very little actual metagame discussion. Seems like it would make sense to split the side-conversation elsewhere.
There already is one, but it's reserved for badgeholders. Though I do agree that a thread for non-badged users might be wise, if only to streamline this thread.
 
Hello everyone as a now we are talking about banning Dynamax. In the opinion of most players, it should be banned and I couldn't agree more. Dynamax is way to generic as a gimmick. A swift swimmer mon being able to set up there own rain is busted or hawlucha setting up his own electric terrain. Gyarados is able to get speed and attack boost by max airstream and moxie. Dynamax has been a fun mechanic at the beginning of SwSh but it is not healthy for the game thank you for reading my opinion on the matter. I hope you have a good day
 
When thinking about banning Dynamax or not, we should think about how may broken mons it would create and and how many broken mons is too many. I would put the limit somewhere around 10-15 and i do believe that Dynamax creates more broken threats than that and because of that, i support a suspect/ban.
Where would you set the limit and how many broken threats do you think are created by Dynamax?

Also @ people who wouldnt like a ban: Im sure you could still play with Dynamax in Ubers, so it would almost be the same for you.
 
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