Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Lord Xen III]

You don't need to restrict movesets or do weird complex bans. If a mon has a boost at the time of selecting a move, it's not allowed to select Baton Pass (unless it's the only thing it can do - good luck abusing this on purpose).

I guess the main concern here is if the pokemon with BP and stat boosts is the last one standing, you can't utilize Baton Pass PP to attempt to out pp stall your opponent. it's a fringe scenario but possible i think, unless you can't BP if there no more active pokemon.

 

[A_Wild_Noob_Appeared!]

Why does allowing Dry Passing require complex rules? 'Pokemon with beneficial stat boosts at the start of the turn cannot select Baton Pass' is a very concise and simple sentence.

Any ban which is more complicated than "<x Pokemon/move/ability/item> is banned in this tier" is considered complex. "Cinderace cannot have Libero" is also a concise and easily understandable sentence, but such bans are discouraged because they're effectively modding a Pokemon to try to avoid fully banning it. Similarly, Drypassing is effectively modding a move to try to avoid fully banning it.

It's no different than a Dynamax clause really.

The game would be basically unplayable (at least by Smogon standards) if Dynamax was allowed. Given that it's not tied to a specific Pokemon/move/ability/item, there is no other choice. On the other hand, the drawback of fully banning Baton Pass instead of adding a clause is minimal.

Sleep Clause is *way* more unrealistic in that regard and is still widely accepted (and good).

Sleep Clause is not uncontroversial either. It's pretty clearly a remnant of a different time and would definitely be done differently if Sleep was newly added right now. Dry Passing doesn't even have the benefit of being a long-running rule with a lot of inertia; most tiers have never had "Dry Passing only" in their ruleset.

 

[Double Electric]

It's worth noting that Baton Pass can also pass some passive conditions like Substitute, so even just limiting it to just stat boosts will miss a few things.

Smogon attempted to craft unabusable complex Baton Pass clauses multiple times, and every time they failed until they finally just gave up and resorted to the foolproof solution of banning the move. And while it's probably possible to create a BP clause that allows drypassing and nothing more, the community has simply run out of patience to try giving BP another chance.

 

[Lord Xen III]

It's worth noting that Baton Pass can also pass some passive conditions like Substitute, so even just limiting it to just stat boosts will miss a few things.

Smogon attempted to craft unabusable complex Baton Pass clauses multiple times, and every time they failed until they finally just gave up and resorted to the foolproof solution of banning the move. And while it's probably possible to create a BP clause that allows drypassing and nothing more, the community has simply run out of patience to try giving BP another chance.

I feel though that everything that has caused headache with Baton Pass is due to the fact that it not only generates momentum but can pass a long stat boosts and/or other utility/support options like Substitute as you mention.

But DryPass in the most literal sense of the word only gives the player using it momentum and nothing else, making it functionally identical to Teleport minus the -6 priority.

 

[Endrism]

With how stupidly complicated a drypass unban would be, how worth it would it even be? Who would even use it?

Think about who gets Baton Pass and why they would use it for a moment.

would prefer U-turn since Ferro and Chomp don't like the coverage Pult runs, and it hits Weavile decently hard on the swap if they try something.
prefers slow Teleports.
gets every pivot move barring PShot already and it doesn't even use them.
for Garchomp I guess...? I mean just use Glaciate in move 4. Ferro obviously wouldn't risk V-Create for a neat u-turn predict.
has a really strong Volt Switch for offensive sets and Hurricane hits grounds that try to stop it.
Same as Victini, but would much prefer the slots for coverage like T-Punch.
Prefers coverage over pivot.
This is the most tempting, giving the Lati twins a way to get in and out making them okay offensive pivots.
When Azelf leaves the field, it's because its booming.
Duh.
Would allow it to pivot on trick room ig, decent but still just Hatterene.
Jirachi might prefer it, but it wouldn't change too much since it does get U-turn.
Still worthless in OU
Wants coverage over pivot.
Might use it, would need to sacrifice a move, and it already likes using T-Wave, NP, Air Slash, DGleam, Flamethrower, Roost ect.
Would actually use it, Wish Passing with Baton Pass while also making it less passive with actually being able to pivot.

That is everyone down to RU. I count and a half point to since I could see it using it, but maybe not.
Is it even worth it for 3-5 mons to unban a complicated and awkward thing? We'd have to restrict Baton Pass passing not only stat boosts, but Substitute, would passing Aqua Ring or Ingrain count as a non-dry pass? Where's the line?

My conclusion, it's not worth it for the sake of the Lati twins and Umbreon, the meta is fine as is, and to go through hoops for that little amount of impact seems odd and pointless. Keep it banned.

 

[Nish the Great]

With how stupidly complicated a drypass unban would be, how worth it would it even be? Who would even use it?

Think about who gets Baton Pass and why they would use it for a moment.

would prefer U-turn since Ferro and Chomp don't like the coverage Pult runs, and it hits Weavile decently hard on the swap if they try something.
prefers slow Teleports.
gets every pivot move barring PShot already and it doesn't even use them.
for Garchomp I guess...? I mean just use Glaciate in move 4. Ferro obviously wouldn't risk V-Create for a neat u-turn predict.
has a really strong Volt Switch for offensive sets and Hurricane hits grounds that try to stop it.
Same as Victini, but would much prefer the slots for coverage like T-Punch.
Prefers coverage over pivot.
This is the most tempting, giving the Lati twins a way to get in and out making them okay offensive pivots.
When Azelf leaves the field, it's because its booming.
Duh.
Would allow it to pivot on trick room ig, decent but still just Hatterene.
Jirachi might prefer it, but it wouldn't change too much since it does get U-turn.
Still worthless in OU
Wants coverage over pivot.
Might use it, would need to sacrifice a move, and it already likes using T-Wave, NP, Air Slash, DGleam, Flamethrower, Roost ect.
Would actually use it, Wish Passing with Baton Pass while also making it less passive with actually being able to pivot.

That is everyone down to RU. I count and a half point to since I could see it using it, but maybe not.
Is it even worth it for 3-5 mons to unban a complicated and awkward thing? We'd have to restrict Baton Pass passing not only stat boosts, but Substitute, would passing Aqua Ring or Ingrain count as a non-dry pass? Where's the line?

My conclusion, it's not worth it for the sake of the Lati twins and Umbreon, the meta is fine as is, and to go through hoops for that little amount of impact seems odd and pointless. Keep it banned.

Polteageist would never use it because a dry pass clause probably wouldn’t allow it to run shell smash + baton pass.

 

[Lord Xen III]

With how stupidly complicated a drypass unban would be, how worth it would it even be? Who would even use it?

Think about who gets Baton Pass and why they would use it for a moment.

would prefer U-turn since Ferro and Chomp don't like the coverage Pult runs, and it hits Weavile decently hard on the swap if they try something.
prefers slow Teleports.
gets every pivot move barring PShot already and it doesn't even use them.
for Garchomp I guess...? I mean just use Glaciate in move 4. Ferro obviously wouldn't risk V-Create for a neat u-turn predict.
has a really strong Volt Switch for offensive sets and Hurricane hits grounds that try to stop it.
Same as Victini, but would much prefer the slots for coverage like T-Punch.
Prefers coverage over pivot.
This is the most tempting, giving the Lati twins a way to get in and out making them okay offensive pivots.
When Azelf leaves the field, it's because its booming.
Duh.
Would allow it to pivot on trick room ig, decent but still just Hatterene.
Jirachi might prefer it, but it wouldn't change too much since it does get U-turn.
Still worthless in OU
Wants coverage over pivot.
Might use it, would need to sacrifice a move, and it already likes using T-Wave, NP, Air Slash, DGleam, Flamethrower, Roost ect.
Would actually use it, Wish Passing with Baton Pass while also making it less passive with actually being able to pivot.

That is everyone down to RU. I count and a half point to since I could see it using it, but maybe not.
Is it even worth it for 3-5 mons to unban a complicated and awkward thing? We'd have to restrict Baton Pass passing not only stat boosts, but Substitute, would passing Aqua Ring or Ingrain count as a non-dry pass? Where's the line?

My conclusion, it's not worth it for the sake of the Lati twins and Umbreon, the meta is fine as is, and to go through hoops for that little amount of impact seems odd and pointless. Keep it banned.

The point of drypass is that it isn't stopped by grounds/volt absorb like volt switch normally is, and unlike u-turn there is no risk of triggering rocky helmet/iron barbs/Static etc, or the rarer but still very viable Eject buttons. Sometimes you do want to chip things with u-turn, but sometimes you don't want to make contact with enemy pokemon.


A Cases in point: Victini can run glaciate for Chomp but for a choiced set landing that requires succesful prediction, and while Victini can get chip on chomp with Banded u-turn, taking Rough skin damage isn't great as in tandem with lacking HDB in this example, you're setting your Victini on a course of being worn down quickly.

Zapdos can run hurricane but then your opponent could pivot in a flying resist like Heatran into hurricane, and once again clicking u-turn in prediction of tran isn't always great due to the rarer, but still viable flame body and isn't great to u-turn off a Garchomp either.

Admittedly, Drypassing ( assuming we nerf it to the point of being +0 priority variant of the move Teleport ) is extremely niche but it still serves a relevant niche and is a nice option in the builder for a select few mons and teams.

 

[Morkal]

Nothing is close to a suspect right now, in all honesty, but Weavile has the most support.

I can't believe that this wonderful man left this golden nugget of information about Weavile, just for talks about Baton Pass and weird complex bans to rear their weirdly repetitive heads. There would be so much trouble involved in making Baton Pass balanced for the meta that it just doesn't seem worth the trouble, in my opinion. So we should talk about Weavile instead; here are some questions about Weavile for you if you'd like to answer them!

WEAVILE

1. What kind of experience have you had with Weavile (using it and/or fighting against it)? Have you found it overwhelming, underwhelming, or anything in between?

2. If you have been using Weavile, what sets do you commonly run? Have you found any sets, in particular, to be better than others?

3. What Pokemon have you been using to handle opposing Weavile? What Pokemon have you used that you feel is good against Weavile?

 

[Martin]

prefers slow Teleports.

Baton Pass>Teleport on Clef

Also, it has base 60 Spe anyway and doesn't give any fucks about compromising the stat with -Spe/0 IVs unless you're running T-Wave or whatever, so any difference in pivoting tempo is negligible anyway. Even if you're running Wish, you'd still want Soft-Boiled so that you're not completely dependent on Wish+Tect or garbage Moonlight for self-restoration.

 

[Red Raven]

I can't believe that this wonderful man left this golden nugget of information about Weavile, just for talks about Baton Pass and weird complex bans to rear their weirdly repetitive heads. There would be so much trouble involved in making Baton Pass balanced for the meta that it just doesn't seem worth the trouble, in my opinion. So we should talk about Weavile instead; here are some questions about Weavile for you if you'd like to answer them!

WEAVILE

1. What kind of experience have you had with Weavile (using it and/or fighting against it)? Have you found it overwhelming, underwhelming, or anything in between?

2. If you have been using Weavile, what sets do you commonly run? Have you found any sets, in particular, to be better than others?

3. What Pokemon have you been using to handle opposing Weavile? What Pokemon have you used that you feel is good against Weavile?

1. I think it's just a fairly balanced mon. It's neither over nor underwhelming for me

2. Boots. I never run anything that isn't sd boots on Weavile. That stealth rock weakness is a massive pain in the ass and I don't really wanna click defog unless I have to. I think that sd boots is the safest Weavile set and allows one to turn off their brain or something

3. Defensively, Buzzwall, Slowbro and Ferrothorn are the best picks. Sometimes I would get ballsy and send in Zapdos hoping for a knock off and static. Weavile gets paralyzed it's pretty much near worthless. Offensively, it depends on the team, I would often use yache Garchomp if I don't need its spdef sets, Zeraora obviously destroys it and you get the idea. It's why I don't find Weavile overwhelming. It's speed isn't the fastest and all faster threats delete it out of the game and its 120 attack stat can often feel underwhelming

 

[Moyashi]

The point of drypass is that it isn't stopped by grounds/volt absorb like volt switch normally is, and unlike u-turn there is no risk of triggering rocky helmet/iron barbs/Static etc, or the rarer but still very viable Eject buttons. Sometimes you do want to chip things with u-turn, but sometimes you don't want to make contact with enemy pokemon.

I'm really trying to understand the point here. Uturn and volt switch having ways of being of being punished is a very healthy thing. If you don't want to make contact, then you just switch.

A Cases in point: Victini can run glaciate for Chomp but for a choiced set landing that requires succesful prediction, and while Victini can get chip on chomp with Banded u-turn, taking Rough skin damage isn't great as in tandem with lacking HDB in this example, you're setting your Victini on a course of being worn down quickly.

That's called a risk v reward scenario. You know Victini running a choice item is making it rocks weak and thus prone to being worn down. You weigh the options and whether it's worth it if your team can manage it.

Zapdos can run hurricane but then your opponent could pivot in a flying resist like Heatran into hurricane, and once again clicking u-turn in prediction of tran isn't always great due to the rarer, but still viable flame body and isn't great to u-turn off a Garchomp either.

Well... Zap then just volt switches on Heatran next turn. And again, the risk of clicking these moves and potentially being punished is part of how comp Pokemon is.

Admittedly, Drypassing ( assuming we nerf it to the point of being +0 priority variant of the move Teleport ) is extremely niche but it still serves a relevant niche and is a nice option in the builder for a select few mons and teams

This sort of works against your argument. Why go out of our way to try and work some kind of clause for Drypassing when it would be an extremely niche option and likely see little play? And it's really not a nice option since most mons would prefer standard pivoting tools instead of drypass. And the few that would use it... Would remain niche in OU anyways.

WEAVILE

1. What kind of experience have you had with Weavile (using it and/or fighting against it)? Have you found it overwhelming, underwhelming, or anything in between?

2. If you have been using Weavile, what sets do you commonly run? Have you found any sets, in particular, to be better than others?

3. What Pokemon have you been using to handle opposing Weavile? What Pokemon have you used that you feel is good against Weavile?

1. While I find Weavile to be an absolutely amazing and meta defining Pokemon, I don't yet think it is overwhelming. Just top tier (top two Mon).

2. I find myself bouncing between all kinds of sets. Boots SD is splashable and effective, but I also quite like 4A with Low kick over SD on Adamant natured sets to catch switch ins expecting the standard knock/triple/iceshard/SD. Knock into low kick does great against mons like Heatran and Ttar. NMI sets are pretty fun too and turn triple axel into a nuke while choice band sets are getting more and more popular. And for good reason. I love em. Banded Beat Up is insane.

3. This one is tough. Some teams I play don't have room for traditional Weavile checks like Buzzwole, and physical walls like Slowbro, Toxapex and Ferro cannot withstand Banded Beat Up (Colbur Bro almost dies. I think it actually does with rocks up? Someone can correct me if I am wrong). Relying more on keeping pressure up to try and limit its chances as opposed to any one Mon.

 

[Dirkhann]

I'm really trying to understand the point here. Uturn and volt switch having ways of being of being punished is a very healthy thing. If you don't want to make contact, then you just switch.



That's called a risk v reward scenario. You know Victini running a choice item is making it rocks weak and thus prone to being worn down. You weigh the options and whether it's worth it if your team can manage it.



Well... Zap then just volt switches on Heatran next turn. And again, the risk of clicking these moves and potentially being punished is part of how comp Pokemon is.



This sort of works against your argument. Why go out of our way to try and work some kind of clause for Drypassing when it would be an extremely niche option and likely see little play? And it's really not a nice option since most mons would prefer standard pivoting tools instead of drypass. And the few that would use it... Would remain niche in OU anyways.





1. While I find Weavile to be an absolutely amazing and meta defining Pokemon, I don't yet think it is overwhelming. Just top tier (top two Mon).

2. I find myself bouncing between all kinds of sets. Boots SD is splashable and effective, but I also quite like 4A with Low kick over SD on Adamant natured sets to catch switch ins expecting the standard knock/triple/iceshard/SD. Knock into low kick does great against mons like Heatran and Ttar. NMI sets are pretty fun too and turn triple axel into a nuke while choice band sets are getting more and more popular. And for good reason. I love em. Banded Beat Up is insane.

3. This one is tough. Some teams I play don't have room for traditional Weavile checks like Buzzwole, and physical walls like Slowbro, Toxapex and Ferro cannot withstand Banded Beat Up (Colbur Bro almost dies. I think it actually does with rocks up? Someone can correct me if I am wrong). Relying more on keeping pressure up to try and limit its chances as opposed to any one Mon.

In addition to this, SD Life orb is insanely strong and fun , albeit it requires more support with hazard control. But if you get away with an SD it's extremely rewarding granted you hit all your axels (which is like roughly 70% chance ).

The one move that can get a bit silly at times is banded Beat up. However with that being said I'm rarely in a situation where I lose to Weavile endgame, thus I don't think of Weav as an overwhelming threat, it has enough flaws that prevent it from being extremely strong.

 

[CJ Flava]

Buzzwole now gets U-turn!

Bug Types problem is that their good moves have low distribution one of those good moves is U-turn which is one of the most widespread moves in the game but the only Bug Type Pokémon in OU that has it is fuckin' Volcarona leaving Scizor to be the only one who can properly use it in OU and it's not even in OU like why? So I thought of giving the only other Bug Type in OU Buzzwole the best Bug-Type move in the game, What can go wrong?

Seriously though this change will definitely skyrocket Buzzwole's viability since it can now act as a Slow Pivot while hitting you with a U-turn from a Base 139 Atk Stat which is pretty darn good.

This is just a hope of mine but I'll be glad to hear responses and how it will affect the Metagame.

 

[Finchinator]

Generally we try to avoid theorymon as it can lead to people being misinformed or taking away attention/resources from discussions of actual metagame prospects.

Of course, I encourage the enthusiasm and maybe one day it will happen, but that day is not today unfortunately.

 

[Lord Xen III]

I'm really trying to understand the point here. Uturn and volt switch having ways of being of being punished is a very healthy thing. If you don't want to make contact, then you just switch.

yeah, but one of the key reasons of using u-turn/volt switch in the first place is to lessen the prediction that comes with switching. u-turn/volt switch are slower than normal switching, but at the same time increase your initiative by allowing you to switch in a mon of your choice before the next turn, allowing you the time to see what your opponent does first and then switch into a mon that will preserve the momentum. whether it's a slow-u turn or fast u-turn the concept remains the same.

Baton pass, similiar to teleport can grant me momentum without being punished by the various contact effects or things like Eject button.

That's called a risk v reward scenario. You know Victini running a choice item is making it rocks weak and thus prone to being worn down. You weigh the options and whether it's worth it if your team can manage it.

Exactly, but then I can lessen the impact of such a scenario before the battle even begins by running Baton pass over U-turn in the builder if i decide that banded u-turn damaging switch-ins to victini isn't worth having to deal with all the nasty contact effects.

Well... Zap then just volt switches on Heatran next turn. And again, the risk of clicking these moves and potentially being punished is part of how comp Pokemon is.

or the opponent switches in their ground on the volt switch, sapping your momentum. And it thus becomes a back-forth prediction war/ momentum war, which I'm sure we have all experienced, you're not wrong about that, but the idea is Baton pass can lessen these factors at the cost of being a pivot move that is not able to damage your opponent like Volt-Turn can


I'm just following the ethos that Smogon held with mutiple attempts to balance Baton Pass. allowing pure Drypassing allows niche mons and some OU mons to have a little more flexibility overall in the builder and i don't think it's unbalanced and Smogon historically seems to have tried to tier baton pass similiar to how it handled sleep.

I can't believe that this wonderful man left this golden nugget of information about Weavile, just for talks about Baton Pass and weird complex bans to rear their weirdly repetitive heads. There would be so much trouble involved in making Baton Pass balanced for the meta that it just doesn't seem worth the trouble, in my opinion. So we should talk about Weavile instead; here are some questions about Weavile for you if you'd like to answer them!

WEAVILE

1. What kind of experience have you had with Weavile (using it and/or fighting against it)? Have you found it overwhelming, underwhelming, or anything in between?

2. If you have been using Weavile, what sets do you commonly run? Have you found any sets, in particular, to be better than others?

3. What Pokemon have you been using to handle opposing Weavile? What Pokemon have you used that you feel is good against Weavile?

1) I've found it balanced but extremely threatening if you don't have it on your mind in the builder, which is what makes it worthy of being one of the S-rank mon.

2) I think the SD set is good but it needs support as running HDB noticeably reduces it's immediate wall-breaking potential as well as coverage. Despite the SR weakness, I think CB sets, with coverage options like Aerial Ace, poison jab, and low kick allow it to be an effective lure and ofc the annoying Beat-Up are best. You can even run icicle crash to avoid contact effects. CB just hits annoyingly hard sometimes with Triple Axel/Knock off/Beat up but it's manageable.

3) I've been running trick room alot lately, so defensive Porygon2 is a good pivot against it. on that same note, Crawduant is a decent offensive check to it on the same playstyle in a 1v1, and Melmetal even more so. And generally speaking many offensive threats can easily revenge or force it out. Scarf Lele, Zeraora, Scarf Fini, Swift Swimmers, to name a few or can soft check it like Blaziken, Urishifu-RS, and Bisharp. Defensively there is
Flame Body/Phys Def Tran, metal birds to an extent, buzzwole, Toxapex(especially paired with a good dark dark resist, as regenerator lets you scout and heal off the beat up as you go into your beat-up resist). and if you like heat, you can go incineroar haha. I feel like there is a wide enough assortment of good OU checks as well as niche checks to it that it can't simply mindlessly break through any well-constructed teams.

 

[Ctann]

Query in regards to being suspected, when it doesn’t seem to pressure OU as much as another threat, example: does.

Now obviously Weavile is the much stronger threat, however there is definitely something to be said about how much pressure two high powered non contact stabs (117 BP psychic before stab , and 95 BP moonblast before stab) puts on team building.

Weavile is a fast bruiser, and can be beat back with generally bulky Pokémon’s, or planning for the endgame.

Meanwhile lele has all but singlehandedly led to the era of stacking steel types on several teams. And steel was already a popular type to begin with, however now it’s become too extreme. This steel stacking then suffocates other viable Pokémon’s.

It’s understandable that lele isn’t as good as Weavile, however that’s mostly due to heatran, Ferrothorn, Melmetal and friends all being top tier checks with high usage. These Pokémon’s cannot check Weavile as easily due to Weavile threatening an end game sweep once they’re weakened.

However Weavile has always historically been checked by generally bulky Pokémon, as seen from previous generations where it wasn’t as top tier OU. This means that Weavile doesn’t feel as suffocating.

It was argued that Kyurem was suffocating due to the Pokémon’s needed to face it reliably affecting team building .. however this situation with a Pokémon like lele is very similar.

It was argued that Cloyster with kings rock was suffocating , again due to team building restrictions if you wanted to roll the dice against the flinches more than once or twice.

Weavile just doesn’t feel as suffocating as the others, and on the other hand, a threat like lele definitely does.

—-

Or maybe I’m just sick of so many top tier steel types being made even more viable!! Haha

 

[Moyashi]

Weavile is a fast bruiser, and can be beat back with generally bulky Pokémon’s, or planning for the endgame.

It isn't like generally bulky mons just win. Weavile is potent and has ways around many of its checks which is how it has gained such a reputation. Banded Beat up getting past contact in particular. It's better handled by having soft checks and keeping aggressive play against it.

Meanwhile lele has all but singlehandedly led to the era of stacking steel types on several teams. And steel was already a popular type to begin with, however now it’s become too extreme. This steel stacking then suffocates other viable Pokémon’s.

How is it suffocating other viable mons?

However Weavile has always historically been checked by generally bulky Pokémon, as seen from previous generations where it wasn’t as top tier OU. This means that Weavile doesn’t feel as suffocating.

Past generations have no real relevance here because SwSh Weavile is not ORAS Weavile. They are pretty drastically different Pokemon. And thus why bulky mons are not a sure fire answer. Still pretty good but not perfect.

It was argued that Kyurem was suffocating due to the Pokémon’s needed to face it reliably affecting team building .. however this situation with a Pokémon like lele is very similar.

Kyurem contributed heavily to the double steel phenomenon in OU and particularly Scizor who has since returned to UU. Kyurem still had ways to get past them its checks, but Lele has to rely on prediction which isn't as consistent. This means teams with multiple checks can force mind games that make it a bit easier to handle. Lele also isn't forcing specific or unviable Pokemon on teams to check it.

t was argued that Cloyster with kings rock was suffocating , again due to team building restrictions if you wanted to roll the dice against the flinches more than once or twice.

What does cloyster have to do with anything...? I'm confused.

Weavile just doesn’t feel as suffocating as the others, and on the other hand, a threat like lele definitely does.

To be clear I don't think Weavile is yet considered to be too overwhelming, but it is hard to handle. Lele has enough checks that it is manageable but unforgiving if you make a mistake against it.

 

[Cdijk16]

I have recently been experimenting with hail teams. I tried to build a Blaziken Hail team around this core: https://pokepast.es/cacd540a3cf7bb8d

I have a few questions about hail:-
1. What are some mons that Hail teams should be well prepared for besides Heatran?
2. What are your thoughts on Alolan Sandslash hail? What do you like to pair it with?
3. What are your thoughts on hail teams using different hail setters such as Aurorus or Vaniluxe?

I made this Hail bulky offense team yesterday to test it out. It did decently , but struggled against Volcanion somewhat. How would you improve it?

By the way, I hear there was a stall resurgence lately. Is ditto stall viable at present?

 

[Eeveeto]

2. What are your thoughts on Alolan Sandslash hail? What do you like to pair it with?

Not only Sandslash is viable, but when I use it, I tend to kill more things with it than with Zolt ( which however is still a must in Hail Teams, just like the setter). So, feel free to experiment, the Slasher is a very good Mon.

 

[Negative Charge]

I think that there is enough strategic merit for drypassing to at least seriously consider some means to bring it back. It can be enforced at the builder, much like trying to put a Kyogre on an OU team. There isn't a "Kyogre clause" in OU keeping it banned, it's just part of tiering/the builder. No baton pass + stat boosting item / move / ability. That's it. New players can be provided a helpful link if they get the warning in the builder.

Edit - I also assert that this is no more difficult for new players to learn than weird move incompatibilities from events a decade+ ago or things like moves/natures being locked to a shiny.

 

[Moyashi]

I think that there is enough strategic merit for drypassing to at least seriously consider some means to bring it back.

If you justify the dance to unban Drypassing with "it has strategic merit" then you can do the same technically with a lot of things which could result in a precedent that could justify other complex bans.

And as history has shown, it generally isn't worth the headache those types of bans can bring. Especially when in practice Drypassing would be really niche and only be seen on niche mons, who wouldn't suddenly become staples because of it. It wouldn't be that common. And would again beg the question... why bother at that point?

Anyways I wanna get away from the BP topic since it feels mostly like everyone has said what they wanted to, and I want to bring up a Pokemon that has been mostly forgotten in recent times.

​

Latios is a Pokemon that hasn't seen a lot of usage since it dropped out of OU, and with the metagame as it is now, I'm curious. Has anyone tried using it lately? What kind of sets have you experimented with? And if you have used it, how has it performed.

 

[Lord Xen III]

If you justify the dance to unban Drypassing with "it has strategic merit" then you can do the same technically with a lot of things which could result in a precedent that could justify other complex bans.

And as history has shown, it generally isn't worth the headache those types of bans can bring. Especially when in practice Drypassing would be really niche and only be seen on niche mons, who wouldn't suddenly become staples because of it. It wouldn't be that common. And would again beg the question... why bother at that point?

Anyways I wanna get away from the BP topic since it feels mostly like everyone has said what they wanted to, and I want to bring up a Pokemon that has been mostly forgotten in recent times.

View attachment 417865
​

Latios is a Pokemon that hasn't seen a lot of usage since it dropped out of OU, and with the metagame as it is now, I'm curious. Has anyone tried using it lately? What kind of sets have you experimented with? And if you have used it, how has it performed.

Even just today I was reminded of the Calm Mind Agility set it has on HO. I haven't used it personally but it Dual Dance set can be scary in my experience. I think it's specs/scarf set is largely outclassed by lele/Dragapult though.

 

[Steel With It]

3. What are your thoughts on hail teams using different hail setters such as Aurorus or Vaniluxe?

Vanilluxe @ Never-Melt Ice / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Atk
Mild / Hasty Nature
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Shard
- Aurora Veil / Taunt / Explosion

Yeah, the ice cream isn't a joke anymore; this thing's legit good now, both as a secondary setter for full hail teams and as a standalone wallbreaker (with or without a Slush Rusher in the back) in the post-Kyurem meta. Veil is the second-best move in the game, Taunt is the best move in the game and Boom brings in your Rushers; otherwise, just click Ice STABs.

(There's also the Specs set, but I'll let the other Luxe users talk about that one since I prefer Ice Shard this one.)

 

[Mathology0]

Storm Zone and I, Pinkacross are declaring war on Stall. Stall has seen a massive increase in usage recently, in all levels of play. Edrala, the current ladder Stall king, reached 200 ELO above #2 mere days ago. Stall utilizes Protect on a variety of pokemon to counter Future Sight, making it unbeatable for many teams. Stall fishes for good matchups, removes almost all thinking and planning from the game, and takes forever. I beseech you all to join us in this battle to put Stall back where it belongs: an inconsistent, crappy, not-worth-it playstyle that will no longer plague the OU ladderers. To do this, we need to start anti-stalling our teams. This thread will tell you how to play against Stall, what cores destroy Stall, and give some anti-Stall teams as a reference. Together, we can kill Stall. When Stall players decide to match up fish after today, their line will get caught up on a log.

Anti-Stall Cores:
These are some cores that are great for beating Stall, but also good in general and threatening against a wide variety of playstyles. Note that there are other cores that break Stall, but these are some of the most applicable.

1. Future Sight + Setup

+

Future Sight + Swords Dance Kartana / Swords Dance Bisharp / Swords Dance Weavile / Swords Dance Landours-Therian, and others. Many stalls rely on Protect to manage Future Sight, but often can’t take on certain types of setup unless they are dealt with immediately. This is a fatal flaw in all Stall teams. Future Sight + Teleport users are ideal, but Galarian Slowking can also work. Note that Future Sight + Choice Band Kartana can also be quite effective.

2. Victini + Tapu Koko

+

Heavy Duty Boots Victini with Will-O-Wisp, Bolt Strike, U-Turn, and V-Create is a very strong pokemon in general but this core also decimates many Stalls. Particularly when paired with Future Sight, this core has no walls whatsoever.

3. Crawdaunt and Volcanion Rain

/

+

Choice Band Crabhammer in the Rain ruins everything. Crunch, Knock Off, and Aqua Jet work well for the next 3 slots so even no-item or previously knocked Toxapex drops. This super powered Aqua Jet is also a nightmare for more offensive teams to deal with. Choice Specs Volcanion on Rain is also near unwallable.

4. Tapu Lele

Many Tapu Lele sets threaten Stall. Life Orb with Calm Mind, Psyshock, Moonblast / Draining Kiss and Focus Blast notably ruins many Stall teams. Heavy Duty Boots or Assault Vest sets with Future Sight and Thunderbolt are also very threatening to many Stalls. Choice Specs is also great, though all Tapu Lele sets are walled by Shedinja (other than Specs Shadow Ball, which also gets Jirachi).

5. Choice Band Tyranitar

Choice Band Tyranitar with Stone Edge, Crunch, Ice Punch, and a filler move like Assurance, Heavy Slam, or Fire Punch runs through 100% of Stall teams. It also auto kills Shedinja, which is nice. Tyranitar is also a great Ghost resist that invalidates Blacephalon and helps against Zapdos, so it’s not too hard to fit onto a team.

6. Future Sight + Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike

+

Urshifu can’t be Protected on due to Unseen Fist, making this pair very strong. Choice Band even lets Urshifu OHKO many usual Protect pokemon. This core is vulnerable to Shedinja, although you can run Flamethrower over Slack Off on Slowbro/Slowking to catch Shedinja on the switch.

7. Beat Up

/

Choice Banded Weavile and Bisharp with Beat Up are extremely threatening, able to 2HKO Toxapex and threaten walls like Buzzwole and Tapu Fini with Iron Head from Bisharp and Poison Jab and Triple Axel from Weavile. If these are played well and the team you’re using has a strong Beat Up, these two can be devastating. Stall, and every other team, really has no answer.

8. Alakazam

+

Nasty Plot Alakazam with Focus Blast, Shadow Ball, and Expanding Force absolutely runs through Stall. Most Stalls just lose to the pressure it puts on. I recommend Focus Sash, which helps Alakazam be more consistent against other playstyles, but Life Orb can be used to pack an extra punch against bulkier teams.

9. Galarian Zapdos

Choice Band and Protective Pads Taunt both work well, Choice Band a bit more so. Galarian Zapdos is a great pokemon in general, but the way it forces Stall teams to either deal with having hazards up or taking on a +2 Choice Band Galarian Zapdos puts on immense pressure. Rocks, Spikes, and Galarian Zapdos is a recipe to defeat many Stalls.

10. Taunt Tornadus

Both Taunt with Nasty Plot and Taunt Knock Off sets are very threatening against Stall teams. Just make sure to run 8 HP on Nasty Plot Taunt sets so they reliably beat Blissey.

11. Guts

/

Conkeldurr and Heracross are difficult to fit onto a team, but they both shred Balance and Stall. Close Combat Conkeldurr in particular ruins Stall when used alongside Facade and Knock Off. There is simply no wall. Conkeldurr’s Mach Punch provides very useful priority, making it a bit easier to fit onto a team than Heracross.

12. Mold Breaker

/

Mold Breaker setup pokemon can’t be stopped by Unaware walls, and they also ignore Shedinja’s Wonder Guard. This makes them very threatening to Stall. SD Excadrill can work pretty well on a Hazard Stack, it gives dual utility of Rapid Spin and being an Electric immunity, very solidly answering Tapu Koko and Regieleki. Haxorus is harder to fit but it ruins many bulky teams with Life Orb and a Swords Dance set with Close Combat, Poison Jab, and Scale Shot.

13. Trick

/

+

Tricking, specifically Choice Scarf (although Choice Specs, Choice Band, Tricky Barb, and Black Sludge can all be effective) can threaten Stall immensely. However, Sticky Hold Gastrodon shuts down almost every Trick user, making this a somewhat inconsistent way of countering Stall.

There are many other ways to beat Stall than the ones mentioned here, these are simply some of the most common and easily implemented. Feel free to be creative when crushing Stall! Weird stuff like Taunt Jellicent and Nasty Plot Alolan Raichu also ruins Stall.

Anti-Stall Teams:
I recommend trying to build your own anti-Stall teams using the cores above-- more variation of anti-Stall teams will make it impossible for Stall to prepare for-- but this can help you get started! These teams all ruin most Stalls.

- Beat Up Bisharp Offense: https://pokepast.es/7d52906dcd563138

- Future Sight + SD Bisharp: https://pokepast.es/4ee4f39edee5c578

- Alakazam Psyspam: https://pokepast.es/e822de67c9b3de96

- Taunt NP Tornadus Rain: https://pokepast.es/17c46e18102c09c8

- Regieleki Rain: https://pokepast.es/33cdf94c2813cb1f

- Galarian Zapdos Hazard Stack: https://pokepast.es/4ded35a1948b16a9

- Crawdaunt Rain: https://pokepast.es/c54cef3af3edaf0e

- Magnezone + Kartana: https://pokepast.es/9d0a1b51a58fc6d5

- Blaziken HO: https://pokepast.es/fb752976d084784f

How to Play Against Stall: written by Storm Zone

“ok so vs stall teams they will make whatever risks and sacrifices to defeat your breaker so that they can wall the rest of your team, preserving the threats to their team is important, remember when there is a stallbreaker alive that threatens their defensive core, make sure it only comes in on a teleport or a u-turn, because more often than not they can be aggressive and hit you on the switch”

Put this emblem in your signature to show support! Our goal is to educate ladder players on how to build anti-Stall teams to hold back the rise of Stall play and return to a more competitive, thoughtful metagame. Insert this on your signature through this link “http://zupimages.net/up/22/13/8gag.jpg” I recommend using 120 px size. Click "insert image," then insert that http link in the URL box that comes up. To resize the photo, click on it and the size adjustment will come up.

Thank you for showing how to beat stall. Here is a replay for anyone having a bad day because of stall.
Might make the team into an rmt. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1551022953

 

[Moyashi]

Vanilluxe @ Never-Melt Ice / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Atk
Mild / Hasty Nature
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Shard
- Aurora Veil / Taunt / Explosion

Yeah, the ice cream isn't a joke anymore; this thing's legit good now, both as a secondary setter for full hail teams and as a standalone wallbreaker (with or without a Slush Rusher in the back) in the post-Kyurem meta. Veil is the second-best move in the game, Taunt is the best move in the game and Boom brings in your Rushers; otherwise, just click Ice STABs.

(There's also the Specs set, but I'll let the other Luxe users talk about that one since I prefer Ice Shard this one.)

Seconding this so hard. Vanilluxe is arguably one of the best, if not the best remaining special attacking ice type wallbreaker left and preys on the common defensive staples like Spdef LandoT and bulky waters, and it also loves that Ferro has shifted to physdef again which means that it cannot switch in at all. This set that Steel With It shared, Modest NMI, 2HKOs physdef Ferro on the switch.

252+ SpA Never-Melt Ice Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 186-219 (52.8 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery

The hail chip rubbing extra chip into things is great for its teammates as well. Its last two moveslots besides Blizzard and Freeze-dry are honestly pretty free and feels like there is quite a bit of room for possibilities. And while not bulky generally, it does often have just enough to be able to take one key neutral hit in an emergency. Ah, and it threatens rain pretty well. Actually really well.

it isn't the easiest thing to slap on a team, but it's definitely effective. I would love to see what others can come up with when using this thing. Give it a try! It's fun.