Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[blooclipse]

In my opinion, Teleport is generally a balanced move and is part of a whole tool; the move itself isn't the issue (although I like the idea of removing its negative priority). However, I doubt it would change much because the slowtwins are still the slowest Teleport pivots available. Future Sight in tandem with Teleport is the current set staple, while Slowbro and Slowking sport enough versatility to run other sets. The pair blank opposing progress while generating their own thanks to their ability to sponge hits, which safely facilitates breakers as they beam through defensive cores. A lot of these issues are bolstered by an overtuned regenerator, which to some is the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Even so, I don't believe that at the moment either of the slowtwins are broken. They're certainly good, but they tend to get overwhelmed and there's significant enough counterplay for either here (at least with the ubiquity of Weavile). Outside of that, talking speculation, if Weavile is banned what would you predict would happen to the meta? Would we see anymore bans after the floodgates are opened, and how much would the tier shift?

As much as I would hate to see Weavile go because of how much I have loved it this generation, I'm not opposed to seeing it go.

If weavile was banned, a lot of ground-, dragon-, and flying- types would get a lot better because they aren't getting revenged by weavile's ice shard. Ghosts would also get a ton better, because no weavile to stop them from ever switching in.

 

[Snapteryx]

I'm fine with a Weavile suspect test tbh. But as a ghost spam user, I fear how much Dragapult and Blacephalon would rise in viability with the Weavile ban. Landorus would also benefit not only from Weavile being banned but also being able to check Tyranitar, who could potentially gain usage in response to Dragapult and Blacephalon. Overall, I'm not opposed to a suspect test but I should note that the meta would probably change a lot without Weavile.

 

[Eeveeto]

Having something that would be potentially broken if a certain Mon is banned is almost never a good argument to keep that Mon. If ghosts become banned without Weavile, some of them should go too.

That being said, I strongly oppose Weavile Suspect. It's an overrated and healthy Mon and there are enough options in all style of teams to reliably (and often long-term) keep it in check. Knock Off might be a broken move, but Weavile is only one of the many abussers such move has, and not even the one who hits hardest with it.

 

[blooclipse]

A weavile suspect would be healthy for the metagame to be honest. If people think it should be banned and they are in the majority, Weavile will be banned. But if most people don't think it should be banned (which I think is most people), then people will stop yelling about how OP weavile is.
Personally, I'm kind of in the middle, but I would still not be opposed to a Vile suspect.

 

[Lord Xen III]

Having something that would be potentially broken if a certain Mon is banned is almost never a good argument to keep that Mon. If ghosts become banned without Weavile, some of them should go too.

That being said, I strongly oppose Weavile Suspect. It's an overrated and healthy Mon and there are enough options in all style of teams to reliably (and often long-term) keep it in check. Knock Off might be a broken move, but Weavile is only one of the many abussers such move has, and not even the one who hits hardest with it.

But knock off isn't really the issue imo, it's beatup and the wallbreaking capability it has with SD and Band

 

[Eeveeto]

Beat Up requires a whole team to build around as well as avoiding any kind of status. Isn't that much different from Specs Volcanion in Rain or Specs Zard in Sun, though I do admit that it isn't as stretched to find partners as those 2.

Band, yes, it's the best set. But it's weak to Rocks ( so, good hazard control is needed) and still has hard counters, not much differently from Band Urshifu, Specs Pult, Specs Lele or Band Kartana. The checks are different, but there are enough of them. Knock Off is annoying coming from Band, but Kartana has it too and meta has adopted to both.

SD Weavile is a good late game sweeper... Like, literally every SD Mon if you wear down the checks? BU Zeraora (which I don't consider a good Mon) also sweeps with Lando worn down, and Lando is way easier to wear down than things like Pex, Ferro, Fini or Buzzwole. No one even considers Zeraora to be unhealthy. Weavile is also way frailer than other sweepers like Chomp, Kartana or even Excadrill. It does manage to scare lots of things to use SD, but thats how prediction works and even if it does get that SD, there are still faster things that it cannot kill a +2, such as Koko, Zeraora or weather sweepers.

So, in my opinion there is more than enough defensive and offensive counterplay to Weavile and it isn't even in my top 10 things that I would like to see suspected.

 

[Lord Xen III]

Beat Up requires a whole team to build around as well as avoiding any kind of status. Isn't that much different from Specs Volcanion in Rain or Specs Zard in Sun, though I do admit that it isn't as stretched to find partners as those 2.

Band, yes, it's the best set. But it's weak to Rocks ( so, good hazard control is needed) and still has hard counters, not much differently from Band Urshifu, Specs Pult, Specs Lele or Band Kartana. The checks are different, but there are enough of them. Knock Off is annoying coming from Band, but Kartana has it too and meta has adopted to both.

SD Weavile is a good late game sweeper... Like, literally every SD Mon if you wear down the checks? BU Zeraora (which I don't consider a good Mon) also sweeps with Lando worn down, and Lando is way easier to wear down than things like Pex, Ferro, Fini or Buzzwole. No one even considers Zeraora to be unhealthy. Weavile is also way frailer than other sweepers like Chomp, Kartana or even Excadrill. It does manage to scare lots of things to use SD, but thats how prediction works and even if it does get that SD, there are still faster things that it cannot kill a +2, such as Koko, Zeraora or weather sweepers.

So, in my opinion there is more than enough defensive and offensive counterplay to Weavile and it isn't even in my top 10 things that I would like to see suspected.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 327-387 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Weavile has a small chance to OHKO buzzwole one of it's best checks after SR, so it doesn't need much chip. and this is really the ideal scenario for buzzwole as many buzzwoles run less defensive investment than what I've calced here.


+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 351-413 (99.7 - 117.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 515-608 (122.3 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO


+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 227-269 (74.6 - 88.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (227, 230, 234, 235, 238, 242, 243, 246, 250, 251, 255, 257, 259, 263, 265, 269)

even Toxapex can fold to it too.

the only one who can handle this set is Fini really but fini can get knocked off and worn down, though to be fair weavile is getting worn down quick by SR and LO too. But even so that's almost all of it's typical checks invalidated and there are still it's other sets like band which can potentially run poison jab for fini.

 

[Eeveeto]

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 327-387 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Weavile has a small chance to OHKO buzzwole one of it's best checks after SR, so it doesn't need much chip. and this is really the ideal scenario for buzzwole as many buzzwoles run less defensive investment than what I've calced here.


+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 351-413 (99.7 - 117.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 515-608 (122.3 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO


+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 227-269 (74.6 - 88.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (227, 230, 234, 235, 238, 242, 243, 246, 250, 251, 255, 257, 259, 263, 265, 269)

even Toxapex can fold to it too.

the only one who can handle this set is Fini really but fini can get knocked off and worn down, though to be fair weavile is getting worn down quick by SR and LO too. But even so that's almost all of it's typical checks invalidated and there are still it's other sets like band which can potentially run poison jab for fini.

Nothing different from LO SD Kartana, which can OHKO Buzzwole with Aerial Ace, Zapdos with Knock + SR Damage + another Knock (or Giga Impact, though this one is rare and has big drawback) and do very big damage with Smart Strike to Torna-T on the switch (or again, Giga Impact). And just like Kartana can't have Aerial Ace, Sacred Sword and Smart Strike at the same time, so is Weavile with Aerial Ace, Low Kick, Triple Axel and Ice Shard. I still fail to see how SD Weavile specifically is more broken than any other frail fast sweeper that requires its many checks to be worn down in order to sweep late-game.

 

[Smashburn]

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 327-387 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Weavile has a small chance to OHKO buzzwole one of it's best checks after SR, so it doesn't need much chip. and this is really the ideal scenario for buzzwole as many buzzwoles run less defensive investment than what I've calced here.


+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 351-413 (99.7 - 117.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 515-608 (122.3 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO


+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 227-269 (74.6 - 88.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (227, 230, 234, 235, 238, 242, 243, 246, 250, 251, 255, 257, 259, 263, 265, 269)

even Toxapex can fold to it too.

the only one who can handle this set is Fini really but fini can get knocked off and worn down, though to be fair weavile is getting worn down quick by SR and LO too. But even so that's almost all of it's typical checks invalidated and there are still it's other sets like band which can potentially run poison jab for fini.

Definitely noted, sets like Adamant LO have to make a large tradeoff of speed and longevity for power. It gets worn down very quickly between recoil, hazards, and contact effects, and loses the ability to outspeed things like bulky Tornadus and speed tie Jolly Weavile which is at times detrimental as well. Not every set can afford certain coverage and you can usually make an educated guess as to which set it is from the preview (i.e. Beat Up requires high base atk stat totals, Band requires good hazard control, etc.). Life Orb is easy to pick out once noticed, while similar sets like NMI can admittedly be somewhat harder to discern. HDB is by far the most common, and one of the easiest to spot (though this can be upset from time to time). Teams with moderate hazard control often use HDB to mitigate chip damage, which otherwise limits the turns of sets without them. We all know just how far versatility goes thanks to the rough meta with Kyurem, where its variety of sets that were at times indistinguishable required and violated different kinds of checks with little drawbacks. Weavile tends to be very linear in its role (much unlike Kyurem for this reason), and while strong, means that it is more manageable from the teambuilder even with these calcs.

 

[Lord Xen III]

Nothing different from LO SD Kartana, which can OHKO Buzzwole with Aerial Ace, Zapdos with Knock + SR Damage + another Knock (or Giga Impact, though this one is rare and has big drawback) and do very big damage with Smart Strike to Torna-T on the switch (or again, Giga Impact). And just like Kartana can't have Aerial Ace, Sacred Sword and Smart Strike at the same time, so is Weavile with Aerial Ace, Low Kick, Triple Axel and Ice Shard. I still fail to see how SD Weavile specifically is more broken than any other frail fast sweeper that requires its many checks to be worn down in order to sweep late-game.

Kartana is a fair point and can be annoying at times but it's true that it is fairly manageable with skillful play. They both have similiar qualities -both are pretty fast, both have pretty good coverage, both hit pretty hard, both have the ability to overcome their usual checks and counters but not all of them at the same time, but weavile once more can still fall back on beat up, and more easily pressure it's checks without risk of contact effects, unlike kartana which gives it the ability to add some added pressure and versatility at the cost of not being as splashable.


And on that note:

Definitely noted, sets like Adamant LO have to make a large tradeoff of speed and longevity for power. It gets worn down very quickly between recoil, hazards, and contact effects, and loses the ability to outspeed things like bulky Tornadus and speed tie Jolly Weavile which is at times detrimental as well. Not every set can afford certain coverage and you can usually make an educated guess as to which set it is from the preview (i.e. Beat Up requires high base atk stat totals, Band requires good hazard control, etc.). Life orb is easy to pick out once noticed, while similar sets like NMI can admittedly be somewhat harder to discern. We all know just how far versatility goes thanks to the rough meta with Kyurem, where its variety of sets that were at times indistinguishable which required and violated different kinds of checks with little drawbacks. Weavile tends to be very linear in its role, and while strong, means that it is more manageable from the teambuilder even with these calcs.

yeah Weavile is not as unpredictable as Kyurem was, or possess nigh unwallable coverage even in a single set, nor is it as bulky with longetivity options possible through roost to actually be able to abuse their shared ability in Pressure. Howeer, still sort of sets itself apart from the other fast, meta defining wallbreakers today, making it stand in this middleground which is why many people are divided on the subject.

You generally expect some kind of wallbreaker set with immediate power, whether band, LO, or NMI, or the cleaner set in SD HDB, but between beat-up and it's possible coverage moves it can be hard to stop even if you know what's coming.



And i think there is still some experimentation with pickpocket to be done too.


So in the end, due to it's flaws, Weavile can end up just being a fad but like it's definitely borderline atm. And it's true that with the generation ending soon, it may not be worth having to deal with the vaccum left by weavile's presence as Weavile in all likelihood isn't on the same level as something like say Mega Sabeleye which required a suspect test to save the gen as we transitioned to gen 7.

 

[clementinabroccolina]

I think that as the generation moves towards the end of it being the main gen, whether or not weavile gets more manageable or seemingly gets better will be a big way to determine if it should be banned. Right now I'd just say that it's a bit unhealthy but compared to everything else that's been banned I don't think it's quite as ridiculous. Either way I think that despite Weavile's teambuilding influence, the meta is in a really good spot since there have been kind of a lot of things going against it but IMO it's managed to be the best modern gen OU (I think it's more fun than gen 5, 6, and ESPECIALLY 7 dear god lmao)

 

[Smashburn]

I think that as the generation moves towards the end of it being the main gen, whether or not weavile gets more manageable or seemingly gets better will be a big way to determine if it should be banned. Right now I'd just say that it's a bit unhealthy but compared to everything else that's been banned I don't think it's quite as ridiculous. Either way I think that despite Weavile's teambuilding influence, the meta is in a really good spot since there have been kind of a lot of things going against it but IMO it's managed to be the best modern gen OU (I think it's more fun than gen 5, 6, and ESPECIALLY 7 dear god lmao)

Definitely, and I think that's been in part because of the fact that megas, z-moves, and certain coverage was excluded, in addition to the banning of dynamax. It's created a balanced space imo even with the power creep that gen 8 introduced, which has given it a fresh feel that wouldn't have been accomplished otherwise (especially with dexit).

 

[658Greninja]

Having something that would be potentially broken if a certain Mon is banned is almost never a good argument to keep that Mon. If ghosts become banned without Weavile, some of them should go too.

That being said, I strongly oppose Weavile Suspect. It's an overrated and healthy Mon and there are enough options in all style of teams to reliably (and often long-term) keep it in check. Knock Off might be a broken move, but Weavile is only one of the many abussers such move has, and not even the one who hits hardest with it.

The problem is…

There are no long-term answers to Weavile. And before you say Buzzwole and Clef, take a look at this.

252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 270-318 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 174-210 (41.6 - 50.2%) -- approx. 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The issue is things that can tank a t-axel do not like Knock or losing their items (Fini, Tran). What can take a Knock Off isn’t fine with taking a T-Axel (Buzz, Clef). Not to mention Beat Up can 2HKO all but dark resists. Pex is the most reliable answer to it, but

A. Band Beat Up still 2HKOs Pex and forces it to switch out, making it an ez advantage for the team.

B. relies on Scald burns or Toxic to beat SD Weav.

Meaning if you don’t get that 30% chance, then Weav can simply set up another SD and wipe out your Pex. (Also because of Pressure, it also out-PPs Haze)

+4 252+ Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 262-310 (86.1 - 101.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Fini is not a reliable Weav check. It gets Knock’d and ends up getting chipped down like a m-fer.

Tran and Ferro are not long-term checks either. Especially since Tran has to also fend off Pult, Lele, Blace, etc. Meaning in a realistic scenario, it won’t be healthy enough to take a hit from Banded or +2 Weav. Ferro can punish T-axel very well, but it along with Tran also have to worry about Beat Up. Plus Ferro is almost never at full, meaning realistically Weavile is gonna pick up a kill.

Yes Band variants are vulnerable to rocks, but it isn’t like the tier doesn’t have reliable forms of hazard removal in Torn, Lando, and Corv who coincidentally can also bring Weav in safely via U-Turn. Yes it isn’t a sure fire solution, but it is a problem it has that became more manageable in the following generation. Even in the worst case scenario, a Band Weav at 75%, 50%, or 1% is still a Band Weav.

The worst part about dealing with Weav is that you have to take into account both Band and Boots. You also have to consider some possibilities like “oh look there is Weav and it set up SD as I bring in Ferro, I can take a hit and cripple it hard with….whoops it turned out to have Low Kick.” Or “My Buzz can check Weav but oh no it was actually Banded? ggs wp.” and I haven’t even mentioned LO which p much OHKOs the entire tier after a boost. Yes its super easy to chip, but you are likely gonna lose one or two pokemon before it goes down because of its speed tier + Ice Shard

It is true that many breakers have little to no long-term answers, but none of them are as fast as Weav. There are four unboosted mons in the whole tier that outspeed it (five if we are counting Torn vs Ada). Eleki isn’t common, and Pult is vulnerable to Ice Shard. (Torn also gets picked off by Ice Shard) So this leaves you with Koko, Zera and scarfers which are perfectly fine rkilers but Weav can always just come back and kill something else. As for the Kart comparison, Torn can switch into any one move and scare it off. +2 Kart isn’t gonna stay in and risk getting Heat Wave’d. This is why I mentioned speed. Teams don’t have this luxury against Weav. If you tried that with Koko/Zera, they lose their boots or worst case scenario, get hit by T-Axel and be put in Ice Shard range. Scarfers can’t safely switch for obvious reasons. What you are missing by comparing Weav to Kart is that there is not only a gap between 109 and 125 speed, but Weav doesn’t have to sacrifice a whole moveslot to beat a dedicated check. It is perfectly content with Knock/T-Axel/Ice Shard, Low Kick is just an option to blank Tran/Ferro early game. For Kart its “Cool, you sloted Aerial Ace to OHKO Buzz. Do you wanna get walled by Tran/Ferro or do you want to get walled by Zapdos?”. Weav loses priority to rkill Chomp, but it isn’t too problematic if you simply pair it with Buzzwole who can check Chomp just fine.

Buzz does fine vs SD Weav as long as it isn’t that shitty offensive spread, but it still loses to Band variants. This means you have to pack multiple checks to it in order to not lose to it. Not to mention Weav can always be paired with FS to break through Buzz anyways. The same problem Urshifu had, it was either Buzzwole or bust. Lets not forget that the reason Buzzwole wasn’t the end all solution to Shifu was that Buzzwole is such a fucking momentum drainer. Which is why offensive variants popped up, so that it is less passive. Even with like 68HP/252Dfse/188Sped, it is still forced to Roost if it gets hit by T-Axel, cause otherwise it will get 2HKOd if Weav comes back in.

252+ Atk Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 68 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 120-144 (32.2 - 38.7%) -- approx. 92.6% chance to 2HKO

I don’t like the SD Weav and BU Zera comparison. Weavile doesn’t need its checks to be heavily crippled for it to start going apeshit. I also want to mention that giving Lando momentum then it is to give Buzz any. Fini is far more easy to wear down than Lando due to having to check multiple things at once. Also Zera’s 112 atk is not comparable to Weav’s 120. Especially since most Weav’s run Ada.

If the solution is to slap Buzz on a team or slot in Pex + dark resist, or run like three checks on a tethen there is a problem with Weavile. Ofc, its not as broken as Darkfu or Kyu, but it doesn’t have to be on their level to still have an unhealthy strangle on the metagame. To explain what I mean, ppl have complained about having trouble with Zapdos, Lele, Pult, and other strong special breakers. People want to slot in Glowking, SpD Pex, and others, but the issue is that teams that do well against Weavile have a hard time dealing with the rest of the meta. Its easy to assume that it relies on Beat Up to break past its checks, but it doesn’t fully rely on it. It just uses it to not worry about Flame Body or Iron Barbs. The most underrated aspect of Boots Weav is that it is perfectly capable of outlasting its checks. With the combination of Knock forcing Ferro and friends to lose their precious items and the fact that the rest with recovery either die to +2 T-axel, are momentum drainers, or are Pex. Band is dummy strong and Boots outlives those Fini Ferro/Tran teams who crumple after chip which is not difficult to do. Other boots users like Koko and Zera aren’t problematic since they aren’t as insanely strong as Weav, and they have enough checks/counters to keep them in check. Weavile even without Band still can truck a majority of its targets. Sorry for the long college essay but I just wanted to get my point across. A suspect test would help us determine if Weav is too unhealthy for the metagame, or if it is something like gen 5 Latios where we just have to deal with it.


And just so I’m not talking out of my ass, I have a couple of replays.

(My own gameplay)


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1538942411-rrzqkj7y9ng4zaxezl83ppzng779dm2pw
With Buzz and Ferro chipped, they can no longer check Weavile.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1553727320
Band Weav casually 2HKOing Buzz.

(WCOP Qualifiers)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-625377
Not a Weav showcase, but it shows how easy it is to cripple Fini in practice since it has to switch into things like Tran.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-624901
Even though Chiles lost, their Weavile was about to win the game, despite the unfortunate miss on turn 40. Also shows an example of Buzz being forced to Roost or be in 2HKO range of T-Axel like in turns 26-27.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-625702
Showcases how not ok T-Axel is on this mon. Doing around 70% to Clef (thus putting it in range of Knock/Beat Up) and 34% to Slowbro. Even with RH Clef, Koko, and Tran, Separation could not keep Weav at bay, only being able to bring Clef out of Knock range with a smart double switch into Clef on Turn 17. We also see that even with Yelodash’s Weav taking chip from RH and rocks it still manages to threaten the team.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-626327
Weavile sweeping the entire team after Corv has been chipped, demonstrating how easy it is to chip its checks in range of +2 Weav in practice. Even the ones with recovery like Corv.

(OURLT)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1565680307-7lozrxo86fbalw09omio60dubx33y7ypw
In the finals of OURLT, Leavers had three checks to Weav including Scarf Shifu, but once Fini got Knock’d, Spookyz was ready to go off. 2HKOing both the Bish and Urshifu

 

[clementinabroccolina]

The problem is…

There are no long-term answers to Weavile. And before you say Buzzwole and Clef, take a look at this.

252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 270-318 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 174-210 (41.6 - 50.2%) -- approx. 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The issue is things that can tank a t-axel do not like Knock or losing their items (Fini, Tran). What can take a Knock Off isn’t fine with taking a T-Axel (Buzz, Clef). Not to mention Beat Up can 2HKO all but dark resists. Pex is the most reliable answer to it, but

A. Band Beat Up still 2HKOs Pex and forces it to switch out, making it an ez advantage for the team.

B. relies on Scald burns or Toxic to beat SD Weav.

Meaning if you don’t get that 30% chance, then Weav can simply set up another SD and wipe out your Pex. (Also because of Pressure, it also out-PPs Haze)

+4 252+ Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 262-310 (86.1 - 101.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Fini is not a reliable Weav check. It gets Knock’d and ends up getting chipped down like a m-fer.

Tran and Ferro are not long-term checks either. Especially since Tran has to also fend off Pult, Lele, Blace, etc. Meaning in a realistic scenario, it won’t be healthy enough to take a hit from Banded or +2 Weav. Ferro can punish T-axel very well, but it along with Tran also have to worry about Beat Up. Plus Ferro is almost never at full, meaning realistically Weavile is gonna pick up a kill.

Yes Band variants are vulnerable to rocks, but it isn’t like the tier has reliable forms of hazard removal in Torn, Lando, and Corv who coincidentally can also bring Weav in safely via U-Turn. Yes it isn’t a sure fire solution, but it is a problem it has that became more manageable in the following generation. Even in the worst case scenario, a Band Weav at 75%, 50%, or 1% is still a Band Weav.

The worst part about dealing with Weav is that you have to take into account both Band and Boots. You also have to consider some possibilities like “oh look there is Weav and it set up SD as I bring in Ferro, I can take a hit and cripple it hard with….whoops it turned out to have Low Kick.” Or “My Buzz can check Weav but oh no it was actually Banded? ggs wp.” and I haven’t even mentioned LO which p much OHKOs the entire tier after a boost. Yes its super easy to chip, but you are likely gonna lose one or two pokemon before it goes down because of its speed tier + Ice Shard

It is true that many breakers have little to no long-term answers, but none of them are as fast as Weav. There are four unboosted mons in the whole tier that outspeed it (five if we are counting Torn vs Ada). Eleki isn’t common, and Pult is vulnerable to Ice Shard. (Torn also gets picked off by Ice Shard) So this leaves you with Koko, Zera and scarfers which are perfectly fine rkilers but Weav can always just come back and kill something else. As for the Kart comparison, Torn can switch into any one move and scare it off. +2 Kart isn’t gonna stay in and risk getting Heat Wave’d. This is why I mentioned speed. Teams don’t have this luxury against Weav. If you tried that with Koko/Zera, they lose their boots or worst case scenario, get hit by T-Axel and be put in Ice Shard range. Scarfers can’t safely switch for obvious reasons. What you are missing by comparing Weav to Kart is that there is not only a gap between 109 and 125 speed, but Weav doesn’t have to sacrifice a whole moveslot to beat a dedicated check. It is perfectly content with Kncok/T-Axel/Ice Shard, Low Kick is just an option to blank Tran/Ferro early game. For Kart its “Cool, you sloted Aerial Ace to OHKO Buzz. Do you wanna get walled by Tran/Ferro or do you want to get walled by Zapdos?”. Weav loses priority to rkill Chomp, but it isn’t too problematic if you simply pair it with Buzzwole who can check Chomp just fine.

Buzz does fine vs SD Weav as long as it isn’t that shitty offensive spread, but it still loses to Band variants. This means you have to pack multiple checks to it in order to not lose to it. Not to mention Weav can always be paired with FS to break through Buzz anyways. The same problem Urshifu had, it was either Buzzwole or bust. Lets not forget that the reason Buzzwole wasn’t the end all solution to Shifu was that Buzzwole is such a fucking momentum drainer. Which is why offensive variants popped up, so that it is less passive. Even with like 68HP/252Dfse/188Sped, it is still forced to Roost if it gets hit by T-Axel, cause otherwise it will get 2HKOd if Weav comes back in.

252+ Atk Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 68 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 120-144 (32.2 - 38.7%) -- approx. 92.6% chance to 2HKO

If the solution is to slap Buzz on a team or slot in Pex + dark resist, or run like three checks on a tethen there is a problem with Weavile. Ofc, its not as broken as Darkfu or Kyu, but it doesn’t have to be on their level to still have an unhealthy strangle on the metagame. To explain what I mean, ppl have complained about having trouble with Zapdos, Lele, Pult, and other strong special breakers. People want to slot in Glowking, SpD Pex, and others, but the issue is that teams that do well against Weavile have a hard time dealing with the rest of the meta. Its easy to assume that it relies on Beat Up to break past its checks, but it doesn’t fully rely on it. It just uses it to not worry about Flame Body or Iron Barbs. The most underrated aspect of Boots Weav is that it is perfectly capable of outlasting its checks. With the combination of Knock forcing Ferro and friends to lose their precious items and the fact that the rest with recovery either die to +2 T-axel, are momentum drainers, or are Pex. Band is dummy strong and Boots outlives those Fini Ferro/Tran teams who crumple after chip which is not difficult to do. Other boots users like Koko and Zera aren’t problematic since they aren’t as insanely strong as Weav, and they have enough checks/counters to keep them in check. Weavile even without Band still can truck a majority of its targets. Sorry for the long college essay but I just wanted to get my point across. A suspect test would help us determine if Weav is too unhealthy for the metagame, or if it is something like gen 5 Latios where we just have to deal with it.


And just so I’m not talking out of my ass, I have a couple of replays.

(My own gameplay)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1538942411-rrzqkj7y9ng4zaxezl83ppzng779dm2pw
With Buzz and Ferro chipped, they can no longer check Weavile.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1553727320
Band Weav casually 2HKOing Buzz.

(WCOP Qualifiers)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-625377
Not a Weav showcase, but it shows how easy it is to cripple Fini in practice since it has to switch into things like Tran.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-624901
Even though Chiles lost, their Weavile was about to win the game, despite the unfortunate miss on turn 40. Also shows an example of Buzz being forced to Roost or be in 2HKO range of T-Axel like in turns 26-27.

(OURLT)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1565680307-7lozrxo86fbalw09omio60dubx33y7ypw
In the finals of OURLT, Leavers had three checks to Weav including Scarf Shifu, but once Fini got Knock’d, Spookyz was ready to go off. 2HKOing both the Bish and Urshifu

These are basically my exact feelings on Weavile put into much better words than I could have ever done. I think we're approaching a bit of a matchup fish problem where you either get murked by stuff like A.) Nidoking, Lele, Zapdos, Volcanion or B.) Weavile and friends. It's no secret that SSOU has a plethora of powerful breakers and I guess the most similar thing can be found just a few tiers down in SSNU. I think its teambuilding influence is of course similar to Urshifu but thankfully not as just... venomous lmao.

 

[Lord Xen III]

The problem is…

There are no long-term answers to Weavile. And before you say Buzzwole and Clef, take a look at this.

252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 270-318 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 174-210 (41.6 - 50.2%) -- approx. 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The issue is things that can tank a t-axel do not like Knock or losing their items (Fini, Tran). What can take a Knock Off isn’t fine with taking a T-Axel (Buzz, Clef). Not to mention Beat Up can 2HKO all but dark resists. Pex is the most reliable answer to it, but

A. Band Beat Up still 2HKOs Pex and forces it to switch out, making it an ez advantage for the team.

B. relies on Scald burns or Toxic to beat SD Weav.

Meaning if you don’t get that 30% chance, then Weav can simply set up another SD and wipe out your Pex. (Also because of Pressure, it also out-PPs Haze)

+4 252+ Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 262-310 (86.1 - 101.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Fini is not a reliable Weav check. It gets Knock’d and ends up getting chipped down like a m-fer.

Tran and Ferro are not long-term checks either. Especially since Tran has to also fend off Pult, Lele, Blace, etc. Meaning in a realistic scenario, it won’t be healthy enough to take a hit from Banded or +2 Weav. Ferro can punish T-axel very well, but it along with Tran also have to worry about Beat Up. Plus Ferro is almost never at full, meaning realistically Weavile is gonna pick up a kill.

Yes Band variants are vulnerable to rocks, but it isn’t like the tier doesn’t have reliable forms of hazard removal in Torn, Lando, and Corv who coincidentally can also bring Weav in safely via U-Turn. Yes it isn’t a sure fire solution, but it is a problem it has that became more manageable in the following generation. Even in the worst case scenario, a Band Weav at 75%, 50%, or 1% is still a Band Weav.

The worst part about dealing with Weav is that you have to take into account both Band and Boots. You also have to consider some possibilities like “oh look there is Weav and it set up SD as I bring in Ferro, I can take a hit and cripple it hard with….whoops it turned out to have Low Kick.” Or “My Buzz can check Weav but oh no it was actually Banded? ggs wp.” and I haven’t even mentioned LO which p much OHKOs the entire tier after a boost. Yes its super easy to chip, but you are likely gonna lose one or two pokemon before it goes down because of its speed tier + Ice Shard

It is true that many breakers have little to no long-term answers, but none of them are as fast as Weav. There are four unboosted mons in the whole tier that outspeed it (five if we are counting Torn vs Ada). Eleki isn’t common, and Pult is vulnerable to Ice Shard. (Torn also gets picked off by Ice Shard) So this leaves you with Koko, Zera and scarfers which are perfectly fine rkilers but Weav can always just come back and kill something else. As for the Kart comparison, Torn can switch into any one move and scare it off. +2 Kart isn’t gonna stay in and risk getting Heat Wave’d. This is why I mentioned speed. Teams don’t have this luxury against Weav. If you tried that with Koko/Zera, they lose their boots or worst case scenario, get hit by T-Axel and be put in Ice Shard range. Scarfers can’t safely switch for obvious reasons. What you are missing by comparing Weav to Kart is that there is not only a gap between 109 and 125 speed, but Weav doesn’t have to sacrifice a whole moveslot to beat a dedicated check. It is perfectly content with Kncok/T-Axel/Ice Shard, Low Kick is just an option to blank Tran/Ferro early game. For Kart its “Cool, you sloted Aerial Ace to OHKO Buzz. Do you wanna get walled by Tran/Ferro or do you want to get walled by Zapdos?”. Weav loses priority to rkill Chomp, but it isn’t too problematic if you simply pair it with Buzzwole who can check Chomp just fine.

Buzz does fine vs SD Weav as long as it isn’t that shitty offensive spread, but it still loses to Band variants. This means you have to pack multiple checks to it in order to not lose to it. Not to mention Weav can always be paired with FS to break through Buzz anyways. The same problem Urshifu had, it was either Buzzwole or bust. Lets not forget that the reason Buzzwole wasn’t the end all solution to Shifu was that Buzzwole is such a fucking momentum drainer. Which is why offensive variants popped up, so that it is less passive. Even with like 68HP/252Dfse/188Sped, it is still forced to Roost if it gets hit by T-Axel, cause otherwise it will get 2HKOd if Weav comes back in.

252+ Atk Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 68 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 120-144 (32.2 - 38.7%) -- approx. 92.6% chance to 2HKO

If the solution is to slap Buzz on a team or slot in Pex + dark resist, or run like three checks on a tethen there is a problem with Weavile. Ofc, its not as broken as Darkfu or Kyu, but it doesn’t have to be on their level to still have an unhealthy strangle on the metagame. To explain what I mean, ppl have complained about having trouble with Zapdos, Lele, Pult, and other strong special breakers. People want to slot in Glowking, SpD Pex, and others, but the issue is that teams that do well against Weavile have a hard time dealing with the rest of the meta. Its easy to assume that it relies on Beat Up to break past its checks, but it doesn’t fully rely on it. It just uses it to not worry about Flame Body or Iron Barbs. The most underrated aspect of Boots Weav is that it is perfectly capable of outlasting its checks. With the combination of Knock forcing Ferro and friends to lose their precious items and the fact that the rest with recovery either die to +2 T-axel, are momentum drainers, or are Pex. Band is dummy strong and Boots outlives those Fini Ferro/Tran teams who crumple after chip which is not difficult to do. Other boots users like Koko and Zera aren’t problematic since they aren’t as insanely strong as Weav, and they have enough checks/counters to keep them in check. Weavile even without Band still can truck a majority of its targets. Sorry for the long college essay but I just wanted to get my point across. A suspect test would help us determine if Weav is too unhealthy for the metagame, or if it is something like gen 5 Latios where we just have to deal with it.


And just so I’m not talking out of my ass, I have a couple of replays.

(My own gameplay)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1538942411-rrzqkj7y9ng4zaxezl83ppzng779dm2pw
With Buzz and Ferro chipped, they can no longer check Weavile.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1553727320
Band Weav casually 2HKOing Buzz.

(WCOP Qualifiers)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-625377
Not a Weav showcase, but it shows how easy it is to cripple Fini in practice since it has to switch into things like Tran.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-624901
Even though Chiles lost, their Weavile was about to win the game, despite the unfortunate miss on turn 40. Also shows an example of Buzz being forced to Roost or be in 2HKO range of T-Axel like in turns 26-27.

(OURLT)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1565680307-7lozrxo86fbalw09omio60dubx33y7ypw
In the finals of OURLT, Leavers had three checks to Weav including Scarf Shifu, but once Fini got Knock’d, Spookyz was ready to go off. 2HKOing both the Bish and Urshifu

marevlous post!
this is what i was trying to say where it's like a well played weavile is hard to stop even if you know what's coming.

These are basically my exact feelings on Weavile put into much better words than I could have ever done.

You stole the words right out of my mouth.

 

[blooclipse]

The problem is…

There are no long-term answers to Weavile. And before you say Buzzwole and Clef, take a look at this.

252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 270-318 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 174-210 (41.6 - 50.2%) -- approx. 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The issue is things that can tank a t-axel do not like Knock or losing their items (Fini, Tran). What can take a Knock Off isn’t fine with taking a T-Axel (Buzz, Clef). Not to mention Beat Up can 2HKO all but dark resists. Pex is the most reliable answer to it, but

A. Band Beat Up still 2HKOs Pex and forces it to switch out, making it an ez advantage for the team.

B. relies on Scald burns or Toxic to beat SD Weav.

Meaning if you don’t get that 30% chance, then Weav can simply set up another SD and wipe out your Pex. (Also because of Pressure, it also out-PPs Haze)

+4 252+ Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 262-310 (86.1 - 101.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Fini is not a reliable Weav check. It gets Knock’d and ends up getting chipped down like a m-fer.

Tran and Ferro are not long-term checks either. Especially since Tran has to also fend off Pult, Lele, Blace, etc. Meaning in a realistic scenario, it won’t be healthy enough to take a hit from Banded or +2 Weav. Ferro can punish T-axel very well, but it along with Tran also have to worry about Beat Up. Plus Ferro is almost never at full, meaning realistically Weavile is gonna pick up a kill.

Yes Band variants are vulnerable to rocks, but it isn’t like the tier doesn’t have reliable forms of hazard removal in Torn, Lando, and Corv who coincidentally can also bring Weav in safely via U-Turn. Yes it isn’t a sure fire solution, but it is a problem it has that became more manageable in the following generation. Even in the worst case scenario, a Band Weav at 75%, 50%, or 1% is still a Band Weav.

The worst part about dealing with Weav is that you have to take into account both Band and Boots. You also have to consider some possibilities like “oh look there is Weav and it set up SD as I bring in Ferro, I can take a hit and cripple it hard with….whoops it turned out to have Low Kick.” Or “My Buzz can check Weav but oh no it was actually Banded? ggs wp.” and I haven’t even mentioned LO which p much OHKOs the entire tier after a boost. Yes its super easy to chip, but you are likely gonna lose one or two pokemon before it goes down because of its speed tier + Ice Shard

It is true that many breakers have little to no long-term answers, but none of them are as fast as Weav. There are four unboosted mons in the whole tier that outspeed it (five if we are counting Torn vs Ada). Eleki isn’t common, and Pult is vulnerable to Ice Shard. (Torn also gets picked off by Ice Shard) So this leaves you with Koko, Zera and scarfers which are perfectly fine rkilers but Weav can always just come back and kill something else. As for the Kart comparison, Torn can switch into any one move and scare it off. +2 Kart isn’t gonna stay in and risk getting Heat Wave’d. This is why I mentioned speed. Teams don’t have this luxury against Weav. If you tried that with Koko/Zera, they lose their boots or worst case scenario, get hit by T-Axel and be put in Ice Shard range. Scarfers can’t safely switch for obvious reasons. What you are missing by comparing Weav to Kart is that there is not only a gap between 109 and 125 speed, but Weav doesn’t have to sacrifice a whole moveslot to beat a dedicated check. It is perfectly content with Kncok/T-Axel/Ice Shard, Low Kick is just an option to blank Tran/Ferro early game. For Kart its “Cool, you sloted Aerial Ace to OHKO Buzz. Do you wanna get walled by Tran/Ferro or do you want to get walled by Zapdos?”. Weav loses priority to rkill Chomp, but it isn’t too problematic if you simply pair it with Buzzwole who can check Chomp just fine.

Buzz does fine vs SD Weav as long as it isn’t that shitty offensive spread, but it still loses to Band variants. This means you have to pack multiple checks to it in order to not lose to it. Not to mention Weav can always be paired with FS to break through Buzz anyways. The same problem Urshifu had, it was either Buzzwole or bust. Lets not forget that the reason Buzzwole wasn’t the end all solution to Shifu was that Buzzwole is such a fucking momentum drainer. Which is why offensive variants popped up, so that it is less passive. Even with like 68HP/252Dfse/188Sped, it is still forced to Roost if it gets hit by T-Axel, cause otherwise it will get 2HKOd if Weav comes back in.

252+ Atk Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 68 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 120-144 (32.2 - 38.7%) -- approx. 92.6% chance to 2HKO

If the solution is to slap Buzz on a team or slot in Pex + dark resist, or run like three checks on a tethen there is a problem with Weavile. Ofc, its not as broken as Darkfu or Kyu, but it doesn’t have to be on their level to still have an unhealthy strangle on the metagame. To explain what I mean, ppl have complained about having trouble with Zapdos, Lele, Pult, and other strong special breakers. People want to slot in Glowking, SpD Pex, and others, but the issue is that teams that do well against Weavile have a hard time dealing with the rest of the meta. Its easy to assume that it relies on Beat Up to break past its checks, but it doesn’t fully rely on it. It just uses it to not worry about Flame Body or Iron Barbs. The most underrated aspect of Boots Weav is that it is perfectly capable of outlasting its checks. With the combination of Knock forcing Ferro and friends to lose their precious items and the fact that the rest with recovery either die to +2 T-axel, are momentum drainers, or are Pex. Band is dummy strong and Boots outlives those Fini Ferro/Tran teams who crumple after chip which is not difficult to do. Other boots users like Koko and Zera aren’t problematic since they aren’t as insanely strong as Weav, and they have enough checks/counters to keep them in check. Weavile even without Band still can truck a majority of its targets. Sorry for the long college essay but I just wanted to get my point across. A suspect test would help us determine if Weav is too unhealthy for the metagame, or if it is something like gen 5 Latios where we just have to deal with it.


And just so I’m not talking out of my ass, I have a couple of replays.

(My own gameplay)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1538942411-rrzqkj7y9ng4zaxezl83ppzng779dm2pw
With Buzz and Ferro chipped, they can no longer check Weavile.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1553727320
Band Weav casually 2HKOing Buzz.

(WCOP Qualifiers)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-625377
Not a Weav showcase, but it shows how easy it is to cripple Fini in practice since it has to switch into things like Tran.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-624901
Even though Chiles lost, their Weavile was about to win the game, despite the unfortunate miss on turn 40. Also shows an example of Buzz being forced to Roost or be in 2HKO range of T-Axel like in turns 26-27.

(OURLT)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1565680307-7lozrxo86fbalw09omio60dubx33y7ypw
In the finals of OURLT, Leavers had three checks to Weav including Scarf Shifu, but once Fini got Knock’d, Spookyz was ready to go off. 2HKOing both the Bish and Urshifu

This is literally what I have been thinking, but put into words. Thank you
I think it would be good if we had a weavile suspect. And this is coming from someone who has Weavile on like 80% of their teams.
It has an insane stranglehold on the metagame, because either you lose to the insane special attackers, or you lose to the insane physical attackers. It's so hard to counter both. SS OU has some of the most powerful pokemon the game has ever seen, and it would honestly be great if we could just suspect weavile.

A well played Weavile is one of the scariest things to play against.

 

[Smashburn]

The problem is…

There are no long-term answers to Weavile. And before you say Buzzwole and Clef, take a look at this.

252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 270-318 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 174-210 (41.6 - 50.2%) -- approx. 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The issue is things that can tank a t-axel do not like Knock or losing their items (Fini, Tran). What can take a Knock Off isn’t fine with taking a T-Axel (Buzz, Clef). Not to mention Beat Up can 2HKO all but dark resists. Pex is the most reliable answer to it, but

A. Band Beat Up still 2HKOs Pex and forces it to switch out, making it an ez advantage for the team.

B. relies on Scald burns or Toxic to beat SD Weav.

Meaning if you don’t get that 30% chance, then Weav can simply set up another SD and wipe out your Pex. (Also because of Pressure, it also out-PPs Haze)

+4 252+ Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 262-310 (86.1 - 101.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Fini is not a reliable Weav check. It gets Knock’d and ends up getting chipped down like a m-fer.

Tran and Ferro are not long-term checks either. Especially since Tran has to also fend off Pult, Lele, Blace, etc. Meaning in a realistic scenario, it won’t be healthy enough to take a hit from Banded or +2 Weav. Ferro can punish T-axel very well, but it along with Tran also have to worry about Beat Up. Plus Ferro is almost never at full, meaning realistically Weavile is gonna pick up a kill.

Yes Band variants are vulnerable to rocks, but it isn’t like the tier doesn’t have reliable forms of hazard removal in Torn, Lando, and Corv who coincidentally can also bring Weav in safely via U-Turn. Yes it isn’t a sure fire solution, but it is a problem it has that became more manageable in the following generation. Even in the worst case scenario, a Band Weav at 75%, 50%, or 1% is still a Band Weav.

The worst part about dealing with Weav is that you have to take into account both Band and Boots. You also have to consider some possibilities like “oh look there is Weav and it set up SD as I bring in Ferro, I can take a hit and cripple it hard with….whoops it turned out to have Low Kick.” Or “My Buzz can check Weav but oh no it was actually Banded? ggs wp.” and I haven’t even mentioned LO which p much OHKOs the entire tier after a boost. Yes its super easy to chip, but you are likely gonna lose one or two pokemon before it goes down because of its speed tier + Ice Shard

It is true that many breakers have little to no long-term answers, but none of them are as fast as Weav. There are four unboosted mons in the whole tier that outspeed it (five if we are counting Torn vs Ada). Eleki isn’t common, and Pult is vulnerable to Ice Shard. (Torn also gets picked off by Ice Shard) So this leaves you with Koko, Zera and scarfers which are perfectly fine rkilers but Weav can always just come back and kill something else. As for the Kart comparison, Torn can switch into any one move and scare it off. +2 Kart isn’t gonna stay in and risk getting Heat Wave’d. This is why I mentioned speed. Teams don’t have this luxury against Weav. If you tried that with Koko/Zera, they lose their boots or worst case scenario, get hit by T-Axel and be put in Ice Shard range. Scarfers can’t safely switch for obvious reasons. What you are missing by comparing Weav to Kart is that there is not only a gap between 109 and 125 speed, but Weav doesn’t have to sacrifice a whole moveslot to beat a dedicated check. It is perfectly content with Kncok/T-Axel/Ice Shard, Low Kick is just an option to blank Tran/Ferro early game. For Kart its “Cool, you sloted Aerial Ace to OHKO Buzz. Do you wanna get walled by Tran/Ferro or do you want to get walled by Zapdos?”. Weav loses priority to rkill Chomp, but it isn’t too problematic if you simply pair it with Buzzwole who can check Chomp just fine.

Buzz does fine vs SD Weav as long as it isn’t that shitty offensive spread, but it still loses to Band variants. This means you have to pack multiple checks to it in order to not lose to it. Not to mention Weav can always be paired with FS to break through Buzz anyways. The same problem Urshifu had, it was either Buzzwole or bust. Lets not forget that the reason Buzzwole wasn’t the end all solution to Shifu was that Buzzwole is such a fucking momentum drainer. Which is why offensive variants popped up, so that it is less passive. Even with like 68HP/252Dfse/188Sped, it is still forced to Roost if it gets hit by T-Axel, cause otherwise it will get 2HKOd if Weav comes back in.

252+ Atk Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 68 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 120-144 (32.2 - 38.7%) -- approx. 92.6% chance to 2HKO

If the solution is to slap Buzz on a team or slot in Pex + dark resist, or run like three checks on a tethen there is a problem with Weavile. Ofc, its not as broken as Darkfu or Kyu, but it doesn’t have to be on their level to still have an unhealthy strangle on the metagame. To explain what I mean, ppl have complained about having trouble with Zapdos, Lele, Pult, and other strong special breakers. People want to slot in Glowking, SpD Pex, and others, but the issue is that teams that do well against Weavile have a hard time dealing with the rest of the meta. Its easy to assume that it relies on Beat Up to break past its checks, but it doesn’t fully rely on it. It just uses it to not worry about Flame Body or Iron Barbs. The most underrated aspect of Boots Weav is that it is perfectly capable of outlasting its checks. With the combination of Knock forcing Ferro and friends to lose their precious items and the fact that the rest with recovery either die to +2 T-axel, are momentum drainers, or are Pex. Band is dummy strong and Boots outlives those Fini Ferro/Tran teams who crumple after chip which is not difficult to do. Other boots users like Koko and Zera aren’t problematic since they aren’t as insanely strong as Weav, and they have enough checks/counters to keep them in check. Weavile even without Band still can truck a majority of its targets. Sorry for the long college essay but I just wanted to get my point across. A suspect test would help us determine if Weav is too unhealthy for the metagame, or if it is something like gen 5 Latios where we just have to deal with it.


And just so I’m not talking out of my ass, I have a couple of replays.

(My own gameplay)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1538942411-rrzqkj7y9ng4zaxezl83ppzng779dm2pw
With Buzz and Ferro chipped, they can no longer check Weavile.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1553727320
Band Weav casually 2HKOing Buzz.

(WCOP Qualifiers)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-625377
Not a Weav showcase, but it shows how easy it is to cripple Fini in practice since it has to switch into things like Tran.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-624901
Even though Chiles lost, their Weavile was about to win the game, despite the unfortunate miss on turn 40. Also shows an example of Buzz being forced to Roost or be in 2HKO range of T-Axel like in turns 26-27.

(OURLT)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1565680307-7lozrxo86fbalw09omio60dubx33y7ypw
In the finals of OURLT, Leavers had three checks to Weav including Scarf Shifu, but once Fini got Knock’d, Spookyz was ready to go off. 2HKOing both the Bish and Urshifu

Definitely summarizes a lot of what I've thought, just difficult to have an evolving collection of thoughts without some evidence-- which you have provided. I still stand by what I've said thus far about Weavile, but this is a fair amount of condemning evidence for it and I appreciate the effort. Well done!

[EDIT]

Felt like including this, as I hadn't seen it much and wanted some opinion.

SpDos

Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure / Static
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Thunderbolt / (Discharge / Volt Switch)
- Hurricane
- Roost
- U-turn / Defog

SpD Zapdos had been an idea earlier this generation, alongside the prototypes of SpD Landorus during the Cinderace / Magearna meta. Although SpD Landorus caught significant attention and has since become a metagame staple, SpD Zapdos has generally remained little more than concept (though with good reason). Most of the time you would much rather have the physical bulk to check stuff like Rillaboom, Kartana, Buzzwole, Urshifu, and Melmetal, among a few others. Fitting another check- or multiple checks- onto a team to deal with the aforementioned in order to run SpD Zapdos can be awkward, especially if they end up stacking weaknesses and over centralizing on certain defensive members. However, in light of recent trends like Zapdos specing into bulkier or more offensive sets, I think this set (and others like it) may have some room in the metagame. While it will initially miss out on those physical attackers, Zapdos will now have the SpD bulk to better check a plethora of special attackers that have become increasingly common in the effects of Weavile's ubiquity. Pressure allows Zapdos to stall those strong special attackers who can't immediately break it, while Static is used to punish U-Turn pivoting. Of course, maximum SpD bulk isn't necessary. Some sets can forego entirely ditching physical bulk in order to run varying amounts of mixed bulk.

How do we feel about giving it a spotlight, and is it really worth using?

 

[Lord Xen III]

Definitely summarizes a lot of what I've thought, just difficult to have an evolving collection of thoughts without some evidence-- which you have provided. I still stand by what I've said thus far about Weavile, but this is a fair amount of condemning evidence for it and I appreciate the effort. Well done!

[EDIT]

Felt like including this, as I hadn't seen it much and wanted some opinion.

SpDos

Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure / Static
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Thunderbolt / (Discharge / Volt Switch)
- Hurricane
- Roost
- U-turn / Defog

SpD Zapdos had been an idea earlier this generation, alongside the prototypes of SpD Landorus during the Cinderace / Magearna meta. Although SpD Landorus caught significant attention and become a metagame staple, SpD Zapdos has generally remained little more than an idea since conception (though with good reason). Most of the time you would much rather have the physical bulk to check stuff like Rillaboom, Kartana, Buzzwole, Urshifu, and Melmetal, among a few others. Fitting another check- or multiple checks- onto a team to deal with the aforementioned in order to run SpD Zapdos can be awkward, especially if they end up stacking weaknesses and over centralizing on certain defensive members. However, in light of recent trends like Zapdos specing into bulkier or more offensive sets, I think this set (and others like it) may have some room in the metagame. While it will initially miss out on those physical attackers, Zapdos will now have the SpD bulk to better check a plethora of special attackers that have become increasing common in the effects of Weavile's ubiquity. Pressure allows Zapdos to stall out those strong special attackers who can't immediately break it, while Statis is used to punish U-Turn pivoting. Of course, maximum SpD bulk isn't necessary. Some sets can forego entirely ditching physical bulk in order to run varying amounts of mixed bulk.

How do we feel about giving it a spotlight, and is it really worth using?

252+ SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zapdos in Psychic Terrain: 214-253 (55.8 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You also have a chance to be 2hko'd by psychic too, though you avoid the 2hko from Lele's other standard moves

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 229-270 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


+1 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 175-207 (45.6 - 54%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO



252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 127-150 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

I think here, even with a spdef drop you still avoid the 2hko

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 204-241 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

it also seems you take a similiar amount of damage as mandibuzz and can just roost off

252 SpA Blacephalon Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 127-151 (33.1 - 39.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO


252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 105-124 (27.4 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 127-150 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage


Overall pretty solid calcs it seems. it seems very similiar to spdef lando sans having access to Roost for reliable recovery, and seems like it could benefit from having toxic squeezed in somehwere

 

[RaikouLover]

Definitely summarizes a lot of what I've thought, just difficult to have an evolving collection of thoughts without some evidence-- which you have provided. I still stand by what I've said thus far about Weavile, but this is a fair amount of condemning evidence for it and I appreciate the effort. Well done!

[EDIT]

Felt like including this, as I hadn't seen it much and wanted some opinion.

SpDos

Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure / Static
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Thunderbolt / (Discharge / Volt Switch)
- Hurricane
- Roost
- U-turn / Defog

SpD Zapdos had been an idea earlier this generation, alongside the prototypes of SpD Landorus during the Cinderace / Magearna meta. Although SpD Landorus caught significant attention and has since become a metagame staple, SpD Zapdos has generally remained little more than concept (though with good reason). Most of the time you would much rather have the physical bulk to check stuff like Rillaboom, Kartana, Buzzwole, Urshifu, and Melmetal, among a few others. Fitting another check- or multiple checks- onto a team to deal with the aforementioned in order to run SpD Zapdos can be awkward, especially if they end up stacking weaknesses and over centralizing on certain defensive members. However, in light of recent trends like Zapdos specing into bulkier or more offensive sets, I think this set (and others like it) may have some room in the metagame. While it will initially miss out on those physical attackers, Zapdos will now have the SpD bulk to better check a plethora of special attackers that have become increasingly common in the effects of Weavile's ubiquity. Pressure allows Zapdos to stall those strong special attackers who can't immediately break it, while Static is used to punish U-Turn pivoting. Of course, maximum SpD bulk isn't necessary. Some sets can forego entirely ditching physical bulk in order to run varying amounts of mixed bulk.

How do we feel about giving it a spotlight, and is it really worth using?

I flirted with Spdef Zapdos months ago. While Zapdos has good bulk and handy recovery, its typing is much better suited to checking physical attackers. I got lit up by an SD Kartana on just my second battle using SpDef Zapdos. What would SpDef even try to wall?

 

[Lord Xen III]

I flirted with Spdef Zapdos months ago. While Zapdos has good bulk and handy recovery, its typing is much better suited to checking physical attackers. I got lit up by an SD Kartana on just my second battle using SpDef Zapdos. What would SpDef even try to wall?

with the exception of Lele, this zapdos doesn't seem to fair much worse against the common Special attackers of the tier compared to lando, and while lando is obviously better overall Zapdos still has reliable recovery over it. lando even with intimidate doesn't check the common physical threats as much as it would like when running spdef sets compared to phys def sets.

 

[Smashburn]

I flirted with Spdef Zapdos months ago. While Zapdos has good bulk and handy recovery, its typing is much better suited to checking physical attackers. I got lit up by an SD Kartana on just my second battle using SpDef Zapdos. What would SpDef even try to wall?

The idea is that it can wall offensive Zapdos, Tornadus, Specs Pult (Modest), Slowking-G (Textbook AV), Tapu Koko, and Regieleki (Modest, barring boosts) while more readily checking Blacephalon, Volcarona, Eruption Heatran (Modest), Tapu Lele, Volcanion, Tapu Fini (CM / Offensive), and Magnezone (Barring Modest Specs). It can still manage quite a few of these with mixed calcs I'm sure, but I haven't done much exploring.

with the exception of Lele, this zapdos doesn't seem to fair much worse against the common Special attackers of the tier compared to lando, and while lando is obviously better overall Zapdos still has reliable recovery over it. lando even with intimidate doesn't check the common physical threats as much as it would like when running spdef sets compared to phys def sets.

I think he knows that, his gripe is "why use something with recovery in such a way when it has other more applicable uses on the average team elsewhere?" Which I understand.

 

[clementinabroccolina]

What kind of team would a specially defensive Zapdos fit in? It definitely has stiff competition with the #1 spdef blanket check in the tier but access to roost is at least quite nice. I also think Toxic on it would be nice because Lando for instance sometimes has things try and set up right in front of its face because it's not as immediately offensively threatening, which is something i'd miss with a non-offensive Zapdos

 

[Smashburn]

What kind of team would a specially defensive Zapdos fit in? It definitely has stiff competition with the #1 spdef blanket check in the tier but access to roost is at least quite nice. I also think Toxic on it would be nice because Lando for instance sometimes has things try and set up right in front of its face because it's not as immediately offensively threatening, which is something i'd miss with a non-offensive Zapdos

Zapdos would probably fit on balance style teams that can afford secondary support for the physical attackers it would no longer check as effectively. Partners like Corviknight, Buzzwole, Toxapex, Slowbro, Dragonite, Chople Ferrothorn, Landorus, Garchomp, and Scizor seem to be good partners on paper (probably a few others too). As a slow SpD pivot, I think it would work especially well on teams whose ghost resists often fall on stuff like Landorus.

I agree with Toxic, the more you look at it the less effective SpD Zapdos looks without it in most cases. Though that means you need secondary Defog support.

 

[blooclipse]

Though that means you need secondary Defog support.

In most cases when using zapdos you would want another defogger even when running pdef, because zappy is so prone to losing its HDB.

 

[Lord Xen III]

The idea is that it can wall offensive Zapdos, Tornadus, Specs Pult (Modest), Slowking-G (Textbook AV), Tapu Koko, and Regieleki (Modest, barring boosts) while more readily checking Blacephalon, Volcarona, Eruption Heatran (Modest), Tapu Lele, Volcanion, Tapu Fini (CM / Offensive), and Magnezone (Barring Modest Specs). It can still manage quite a few of these with mixed calcs I'm sure, but I haven't done much exploring.



I think he knows that, his gripe is "why use something with recovery in such a way when it has other more applicable uses on the average team elsewhere?" Which I understand.

yeah, but i was pointing out that like of course spdef Zapdos doesn't check kartana as well, you can say that about spdef lando too or other walls like toxapex that can run phys def, spdef, or mixed def sets, but i posted several calcs of Zapdos walling several specially attacking threats in OU as a supplement , and in fact Zapdos has comparable special bulk to land so it's not surprising it can check many of the same things. and you also mention many of the same threats i showed it can check or counter too.