Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[Genhui]

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 16 HP / 240 Atk / 12 SpD / 240 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Imprison
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
This is better for you know. I don’t know why it has to be divided by 4, but here. I decided to invest in SpD and HP would be better. This is the final adjustment I will make

I would say there is no sense in hp and spd leftovers.
you personally want 252 252 4 to hit as hard as possible and to speedtie other landorus
Or if u want defensive landorus you can go for 252 hp 252 spd 4 atk
Mark me if i am wrong

 

[Smashburn]

Imprison Landorus is fun tech, but realistically it can't do everything it needs to and is a highly flawed set, being regarded as a fringe deviation of its standard sets. Variations like these are very high risk-to-reward, and as a whole Imprison Landorus is too reliant on role composition and trends being linear. It doesn't fulfill the roles it typically needs to in order to retain viability due to this niche set, and most times the reward for this risk is diminutive to say the least. That said, it doesn't have to be good to work and it doesn't have to be on the viability rankings to be playable.

As for other thoughts about it, I wouldn't compress Defog and Stealth Rock into one set. It requires too many slots, but having one or the other reduces risk.

Here is the set I recommend:

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Imprison
- U-Turn
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock / Defog​

 

[Walletinspector62]

My question is is it really worth wasting your Lando on a set to hard counter other landos when there are plenty of other effective mons that take advantage of lando? The only set that feasts on normal Lando that is worth running imo is this set:

Landorus-Therian (M) Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 AtK / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Earthquake
-Substitute
-Bulk Up
-Smack Down

unlike imprison Lando, this set can take advantage of multiple other common Landorus switch ins, such as Corviknight and Ferrothorn. With just a single Bulk up, Lando can put a real dent in a team that relies their own Lando to check Lando. The EVs can probably be optimized a bit.

 

[SLDR]

Imprison Landorus is fun tech, but realistically it can't do everything it needs to and is a highly flawed set, being regarded as a fringe deviation of its standard sets. Variations like these are very high risk-to-reward, and as a whole Imprison Landorus is too reliant on role composition and trends being linear. It doesn't fulfill the roles it typically needs to in order to retain viability due to this niche set, and most times the reward for this risk is diminutive to say the least. That said, it doesn't have to be good to work and it doesn't have to be on the viability rankings to be playable.

As for other thoughts about it, I wouldn't compress Defog and Stealth Rock into one set. It requires too many slots, but having one or the other reduces risk.

Here is the set I recommend:

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Imprison
- U-Turn
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock / Defog​

As I said before, the Imprison set is extremely specific to those team that can afford dropping one (or both) Earthquake and Toxic. Most balance teams CAN'T have their Landorus-T miss even one of these moves; the only teamstyle that can afford this is HO and surrogates, where you don't need to click an uninvested Earthquake nor you need to Toxic a threat - you just need hazard and screen control against opposing Landorus-T, BOTH STEALTH ROCK AND DEFOG VARIANTS, with Stealth Rock + Defog + Imprison, and pivoting through U-turn. The statement in caps is very important - your HO team wants to keep its own Screens and Rocks up and deny opposing Rocks, which means having Imprison and both SR and Defog is VITAL. I don't see an Imprison set ever be worth it on a regular balance teams, where Landorus-T needs all its crucial moves.

On the topic of standard Landorus-T, I want to gauge the playerbase's opinion on Protect. If your team can afford not running either SR or Defog on Landorus-T or don't particularly need Toxic, I feel like Protect is the next best option, moreso than Knock Off. Protect is very useful for many purposes:
LEFTOVERS RECOVERY = Landorus-T needs its Leftovers to keep it healthy, so Protect comes in handy to restore even more health throughout the game
SCOUTING = especially vs choiced attackers like Kartana, Tapu Lele, Dragapult, G-Zapdos and Weavile, being able to safely scout their moves can be absolutely game changing and help deal with them a lot more easily. Unfortunately, this doesn't work on Urshifu-R, though. It also helps baiting out random Ice Beams/Punches or Toxics on opposing Pokémon, safely revealing their lures.
TOXIC STALLING = Do I even need to explain the synergy between Protect and Toxic?

My question is is it really worth wasting your Lando on a set to hard counter other landos when there are plenty of other effective mons that take advantage of lando? The only set that feasts on normal Lando that is worth running imo is this set:
View attachment 405037
Landorus-Therian (M) Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 AtK / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Earthquake
-Substitute
-Bulk Up
-Smack Down

unlike imprison Lando, this set can take advantage of multiple other common Landorus switch ins, such as Corviknight and Ferrothorn. With just a single Bulk up, Lando can put a real dent in a team that relies their own Lando to check Lando. The EVs can probably be optimized a bit.

The spread can DEFINITELY be improved, but I don't have neither time nor mental energy to provide one atm, might do it tomorrow.
Anyway, I'm a bit skeptical on Smack Down in all honesty. There are two main reasons: first, a neutral Smack Down is weaker than a resisted Earthquake, which is pitiful. Secondly, many teams have more than one Ground immunity, which means that they can pivot around Smack Downs and Earthquake between their Ground immunities and Steel types. It may sounds wierd, but I actually like Gravity and Toxic a lot more, especially Gravity. Opposing Landorus-T's Earthquakes now hitting you mean nothing when you can get 6 Bulk Ups in its face before even clicking Gravity. Gravity allows you to just click Earthquake on everything and avoids PP stalling scenarios from switches and even prevent Urshifu-R from switching in on a predicted Smack Down to threaten a Surging Strikes KO through Substitute.
That being said, Weavile's Triple Axel is a big threat to Sub Landorus-T and Weavile is the #2 OU mon, so keep in mind that setting up against Landorus-T ends up being very difficult when the opposing Landorus-T can just slow U-turn into Weavile (or Urshifu-R) that can KO you through Sub, so you absolutely need a plan B for these things (Toxic Spikes Toxapex sounds like a good partner).

What do y'all think about Protect SpD and Gravity SubBU ?

 

[Lord Xen III]

n the topic of standard Landorus-T, I want to gauge the playerbase's opinion on Protect. If your team can afford not running either SR or Defog on Landorus-T or don't particularly need Toxic, I feel like Protect is the next best option, moreso than Knock Off. Protect is very useful for many purposes:
LEFTOVERS RECOVERY = Landorus-T needs its Leftovers to keep it healthy, so Protect comes in handy to restore even more health throughout the game
SCOUTING = especially vs choiced attackers like Kartana, Tapu Lele, Dragapult, G-Zapdos and Weavile, being able to safely scout their moves can be absolutely game changing and help deal with them a lot more easily. Unfortunately, this doesn't work on Urshifu-R, though. It also helps baiting out random Ice Beams/Punches or Toxics on opposing Pokémon, safely revealing their lures.
TOXIC STALLING = Do I even need to explain the synergy between Protect and Toxic?

Very interesting! It seems like a very good concept. I've never seen it be used, do you have any replays? A set of Protect Toxic U-Turn EQ sounds goat on paper. Bu then you would need to dedicate two other slots for defog rocks. I can envision a core of perhaps a steel, something like SR Heatran/Ferro , and Defog Rotom alongside this Lando. You could theorectically scout a Tapu Lele focus blast with protect, and then know you could safely switch in your ferro to tapu lele. Rotom for volt-turn core?

 

[ZannaBianca]

As I said before, the Imprison set is extremely specific to those team that can afford dropping one (or both) Earthquake and Toxic. Most balance teams CAN'T have their Landorus-T miss even one of these moves; the only teamstyle that can afford this is HO and surrogates, where you don't need to click an uninvested Earthquake nor you need to Toxic a threat - you just need hazard and screen control against opposing Landorus-T, BOTH STEALTH ROCK AND DEFOG VARIANTS, with Stealth Rock + Defog + Imprison, and pivoting through U-turn. The statement in caps is very important - your HO team wants to keep its own Screens and Rocks up and deny opposing Rocks, which means having Imprison and both SR and Defog is VITAL. I don't see an Imprison set ever be worth it on a regular balance teams, where Landorus-T needs all its crucial moves.

On the topic of standard Landorus-T, I want to gauge the playerbase's opinion on Protect. If your team can afford not running either SR or Defog on Landorus-T or don't particularly need Toxic, I feel like Protect is the next best option, moreso than Knock Off. Protect is very useful for many purposes:
LEFTOVERS RECOVERY = Landorus-T needs its Leftovers to keep it healthy, so Protect comes in handy to restore even more health throughout the game
SCOUTING = especially vs choiced attackers like Kartana, Tapu Lele, Dragapult, G-Zapdos and Weavile, being able to safely scout their moves can be absolutely game changing and help deal with them a lot more easily. Unfortunately, this doesn't work on Urshifu-R, though. It also helps baiting out random Ice Beams/Punches or Toxics on opposing Pokémon, safely revealing their lures.
TOXIC STALLING = Do I even need to explain the synergy between Protect and Toxic?



The spread can DEFINITELY be improved, but I don't have neither time nor mental energy to provide one atm, might do it tomorrow.
Anyway, I'm a bit skeptical on Smack Down in all honesty. There are two main reasons: first, a neutral Smack Down is weaker than a resisted Earthquake, which is pitiful. Secondly, many teams have more than one Ground immunity, which means that they can pivot around Smack Downs and Earthquake between their Ground immunities and Steel types. It may sounds wierd, but I actually like Gravity and Toxic a lot more, especially Gravity. Opposing Landorus-T's Earthquakes now hitting you mean nothing when you can get 6 Bulk Ups in its face before even clicking Gravity. Gravity allows you to just click Earthquake on everything and avoids PP stalling scenarios from switches and even prevent Urshifu-R from switching in on a predicted Smack Down to threaten a Surging Strikes KO through Substitute.
That being said, Weavile's Triple Axel is a big threat to Sub Landorus-T and Weavile is the #2 OU mon, so keep in mind that setting up against Landorus-T ends up being very difficult when the opposing Landorus-T can just slow U-turn into Weavile (or Urshifu-R) that can KO you through Sub, so you absolutely need a plan B for these things (Toxic Spikes Toxapex sounds like a good partner).

What do y'all think about Protect SpD and Gravity SubBU ?

I have tried quite a bit and really love Gravity SubBU as a set, the only problem is that it is heavily MU reliant since it needs a lot of free turns and a few mons are quite a pain for it, especially Whirlwind users. One of my favourite partners for this set is set is RH Slowbro for a couple reasons, it provides FuturePort support for Buzzwole and, since Urshifu is forced into Surging Strikes if Lando is behind a sub, a quick prediction punishes Urshifu hard.

 

[Drahe]

<Did you know terrakion got a brother ?

​

Hi guys
With the rise of especially and seeing some on last tournament
& presence of ...
I thought Cobalion was an interesting steel pokemon actually.

Its utility remind me of Spd at early g8ou : check stuff pivot rocks toxic and die.​

► bringing S'ROCKS & being volt-switch user
► base speed 108 ; EV 0 Spe = 252
Contrary to most other steel types, it doesn't let and enter the field for free.
► bulk 91 / 128 / 72 with its elemental coverage : double resist rocks & u-turn ; resist dark dragon & ice ... (& more)
Despite being weak to fight & ground ... and fire (important weakness, purely steel ones, but none others).
It got some defensive affinity with
► bad mixed offensive stats of 90 & 90 ; Justified wich make dark-hits up its physical attack (by 1 only).
But strong BP moves as stabb Close Combat & miss-blast, megahorn, stone edge, steel-beam ...
Have access to sacred-sword to versus iron-defense users.
► utility moves, taunt, toxic, t-wave, iron-defense reflect or magnet-rise,
roar, safeguard, sub, block, SD, CM... quick attack bitch!
I don't know why this guy didn't get bodypress ... gamefreak. or vacum wave.
► LACKS : let opponent pivot its regenerator users on. Does not resist future sight.
One more ground weakness.

SPEEDS​

with neutral nature : outspeed those nature +
EVs : 44 Spe = outspeed
EVs: 108 Spe = outspeed
EVs: 176 Spe = outspeed
full speed nature + = you know what.

Physically defensive + some speed

Cobalion @ Chople Berry​

Ability: Justified​

EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe​

Impish Nature​

- Volt Switch​

- Stealth Rock / Twave​

- Close Combat​

- Toxic​

Twave really is interesting for this set as with chopple u gonna surprise fighting hitters
Also clicking twave frequently is better than CC when a walled pokemon is switching out for a more apropriated one .
Possible to lower speed for more Def.
252 Atk Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Cobalion: 63-78 (16.3 - 20.2%) -- approx. possible 5HKO <jealous
252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Cobalion: 51-61 (13.2 - 15.8%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Cobalion: 87-102 (22.5 - 26.4%)
0 Atk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Cobalion: 204-242 (52.8 - 62.6%) -- toxic him toxic him!
252 Atk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Cobalion: 224-266 (58 - 68.9%)
252+ Def Body Press vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Chople Berry Cobalion: 67-79 (17.3 - 20.4%)
0 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 140-168 (39.7 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Def Body Press vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Cobalion: 102-120 (26.4 - 31%) without berry
0 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ferrothorn: 186-222 (52.8 - 63%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Cobalion in Grassy Terrain: 140-165 (36.2 - 42.7%)
252 Atk Choice Band Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Chople Berry Cobalion: 195-231 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- pivoting out of this KO machine.
Excalty same damage for brave bird.

Mixed def - metal burst ; kinda meh

There is no moveset to cover offensively all what cobalion can cover defensively (and no healing move), that's why I tried some random metal burst use to get free from any hard hitter menacing my team (killing opponent wincon with surprise factor).
But metalburst isn't a sure move because of prediction & relying on taunt sometime.

Cobalion @ Leftovers​

Ability: Justified​

EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD​

Relaxed Nature​

- Taunt​

- Metal Burst​

- Thunder Wave / Stealth Rock / Close Combat​

- Iron Head / Close Combat​

Physical def is same as previously, so calcs are same,
no special reason for this Def spread, it is what last after Spe or Spd invest and is strangly same in both set (that's asmr).

This set is better fitted with such offensive presence in ur team.

252 SpA Choice Specs Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Cobalion: 172-204 (44.5 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Cobalion: 103-123 (26.6 - 31.8%)
0 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Clefable: 150-176 (38 - 44.6%) -- taunt CM set & hit or busrt.
252 SpA Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Cobalion in Electric Terrain: 162-192 (41.9 - 49.7%)

Metal burst :
252 SpA Choice Specs Psychic vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Cobalion in Psychic Terrain: 303-357 (78.4 - 92.4%) (fblast ko you)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Cobalion: 319-376 (82.6 - 97.4%)
0 SpA Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Cobalion: 288-338 (74.6 - 87.5%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Cobalion: 282-334 (73 - 86.5%)

possible other sets

a better mixed set ; using a real brain instead of mine
air baloon lead ; full speed HP ; taunt rocks steelbeam twave?
Sub status spreader ? with SpD for infiltrator pult. feat hexapult
---?---

Wanted to know if some people use him or none & wich set are U playing.​

Please, can someone find a way to lower weavile's usage.
Quickly diving out now.> ​

 

[AnimeFox2007]

Hello guys. Today I want to show off another team I believe to be great because it has great success with me is my anti meta team. For those of y’all who DON’T know, anti meta is a term used for a team that counters the current meta. Here it is:
Corviknight (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SpD
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Defog
- Roost

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 16 HP / 240 Atk / 12 SpD / 240 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Imprison
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn

Tapu Lele @ Assault Vest
Ability: Psychic Surge
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 6 Def / 248 SpA / 6 SpD / 248 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Shadow Ball
- Psyshock
- Thunderbolt

Ferrothorn (F) @ Shed Shell
Ability: Iron Barbs
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Spikes
- Substitute
- Knock Off

Kartana @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Smart Strike
- Leaf Blade
- Knock Off
- Sacred Sword

Mew @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Synchronize
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 148 SpD / 112 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Knock Off
- Taunt
- Roost

Each and every mon was chosen because of things it could do to ruin a competitive teams day. I hope y’all like it and find great success with it. Bye!

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Hello guys. Today I want to show off another team I believe to be great because it has great success with me is my anti meta team. For those of y’all who DON’T know, anti meta is a term used for a team that counters the current meta. Here it is:
Corviknight (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SpD
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Defog
- Roost

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 16 HP / 240 Atk / 12 SpD / 240 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Imprison
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn

Tapu Lele @ Assault Vest
Ability: Psychic Surge
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 6 Def / 248 SpA / 6 SpD / 248 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Shadow Ball
- Psyshock
- Thunderbolt

Ferrothorn (F) @ Shed Shell
Ability: Iron Barbs
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Spikes
- Substitute
- Knock Off

Kartana @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Smart Strike
- Leaf Blade
- Knock Off
- Sacred Sword

Mew @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Synchronize
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 148 SpD / 112 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Knock Off
- Taunt
- Roost

Each and every mon was chosen because of things it could do to ruin a competitive teams day. I hope y’all like it and find great success with it. Bye!

You know there is a RMT thread..... https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/ss-ou-teams.545/

 

[SetsuSetsuna]

I started playing around with this set when Cosmic was way more pupular and people would go hard Weavile, Shifu, Pult on Mew. However, even without those factors, this set is bonkers bonkers as a 1 time surprise.

Broken +
Mew @ Kasib Berry
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Ice Beam
- Psyshock
- Vacuum Wave​

You gotta find room to np (I just cheat and use screens) and then go bunkers.

Who do you OHKO after an np?

You love to see them

Offensive
offensive
if not AV
Offensive 98.7% min

Who else do you beat after an np?

You like to see them

(but it's annoying)
Magic Guard
the other variants
defensive
Defensive gets 2hko and can't ohko you back
Vacuum wave negates the bolt beak boost

Who do you trade with or can beat in a good day?

Annoying

not AV, , , , , in very specific situations, if they win the speed tie they get 2hko

You lose:

lol

AV, lol, lol, lol, sadness, Unaware, xd, Encore

Replays:

I don't remember where all my replays are so I hope these ones are enough lmao. They are in room tours and in the 1600-1900 ladder, a couple of good players in there. Ignore the team, is bad lol.

Replays

OHKO Kartana and weakens Drill and ttar
OHKO Torn and Weavile
Sets up on Fini and Slowking and sweeps
Sets up on Fini and kills 5 mons
Gets +4 on fini and beats lele and ditto
OHKO Lando and chips slowbro
Weavile, Glowking, Pex, Zapdos, Lando on the same team
OHKO Kartana and Volc
Cleans against Lando, Weavile and Kart
OHKO Lando and Kart and beats Zapdos and Corvi
OHKO Lando and Weavile, and chips Melmetal
OHKO Lando, Shifu and Dragapult

 

[Avira]

Mew is a pretty good mon, but a lot of the replays had some pretty senseless plays that could have been avoided if the players didn't set up SR on Meteor Beam and +2 Aura Sphere as well as other huge mistakes, not necessarily against Mew itself but one of the other mons on the team. Many of the players in your replays sacked a good portion of their teams for no reason when it was clear that if they had actually used a damage calculator that they could have avoided being completely decimated.

 

[SetsuSetsuna]

Mew is a pretty good mon, but a lot of the replays had some pretty senseless plays that could have been avoided if the players didn't set up SR on Meteor Beam and +2 Aura Sphere as well as other huge mistakes, not necessarily against Mew itself but one of the other mons on the team. Many of the players in your replays sacked a good portion of their teams for no reason when it was clear that if they had actually used a damage calculator that they could have avoided being completely decimated.

Mind giving precise examples? Idr any of the replays lol, I just copy pasted from somewhere. The only one I remember is where mew just won cause they sacked scizor to something. Also I'm not trying to highlight the entire games, just the parts where mew did what it did. You can't tell me "well he shouldn't have teleported into Weavile to deal with Mew" cause that makes no sense lol.

 

[theotherguytm]

Honestly, people say "Mew is unpredictable", but that's really not true.
Mew sets basically fall into two categories: Setup and Utility. Everything else is just terrible due to Mew's poor offensive stats and typing. Nothing a utility set does is ever really going to be threatening in the short term, so when it first hits the field the safest assumption is that it's going to be clicking some boosting move or other. Even if they call the switch-in and have the right coverage, unboosted Mew is never going to KO anything remotely bulky without hitting a 4* weakness.

NP/SD: honestly even at +2 Mew isn't really that threatening to Psychic-resists unless it has the correct coverage for your check. Psychic is a bad offensive typing because not only are several prominent defensive mons (Read: Steels) resistant to it, those mons usually require more coverage to exploit than Mew can fit in two slots, and on the SE end, you hit basically just Pex. There aren't any high-BP Psychic-type moves to fire off either, further neutering Mew's output. So you either go STABless and hit like a wet paper towel whenever you don't have an SE move, or you effectively waste a moveslot to be able to damage neutral targets for something that might make them blink once. This STAB problem, and the related moveslot problem, is why these Mews rarely run recovery even though they have the bulk to. It would just make them a worse Latios, and that's saying something.

Double Dance: See above but even less coverage lol. Sets that give up a moveslot to priority kinda belong in this category but trade consistently being able to dodge revenge killing for technically having a third attack. However... It's Mew lol those moves are going to be doing jack unless they're SE so not only do you have to hope and pray you have the right coverage for the defensive answer, you also have to pray you have the correct priority for the revenge killer.

DD: This is just a bad version of SD because a +1 Mew does nothing. You will always be DDing twice, so the only thing it does is save a moveslot on some hypothetical physical double dance no-one uses.

"Demon Mew": This is the one set that kinda needs dealing with differently to the above. However, it takes many Cosmic Powers for it to start being an actual offensive threat, so it will never get anything done as long as its check (faster disruption/status user, Dark type, etc) is alive. You beat it like you beat any other wincon tbh, just don't let your check die or win before it does.

Mew has had its moments this gen with Spikes and Cosmic Power in its arsenal, but honestly its main problem is 90% of the sets you can think of for it, another mon does better.

 

[Wigglytuff]

Tapu Lele @ Assault Vest
Ability: Psychic Surge
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 6 Def / 248 SpA / 6 SpD / 248 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Shadow Ball
- Psyshock
- Thunderbolt

Putting the (dubious) viability of the team aside, can you explain these EVs? 6 EVs is functionally the same as 4 EVs because EVs work in increments of 4. There’s no reason to have 6 EVs and all you’re doing is unnecessarily lowering SpA and Speed by 1, which is a pretty awful idea considering how important the 317 Speed Tier is.

 

[Finchinator]

hey You

yea, You reading this rn

FILL OUT THE SS OU TIERING SURVEY RN

thx

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

hey You

yea, You reading this rn

FILL OUT THE SS OU TIERING SURVEY RN

thx

Finch seriously wants a repeat of last time happens... ... wait you dont know... well let me remind you of that time.....

Yeah... that happened... Sooo to avoid this being off topic

- Is there any solid counterplay to mew once it starts boosting as it seems to just absolutely snowball once it gets 1 cosmic power good lord if 2. Since most darks like weavile while common still can be lured in via body press and just absolutely shut down, while even then it usually gets chipped throught a game and dies weakening something else or being at very low hp.

 

[theotherguytm]

- Is there any solid counterplay to mew once it starts boosting as it seems to just absolutely snowball once it gets 1 cosmic power good lord if 2. Since most darks like weavile while common still can be lured in via body press and just absolutely shut down, while even then it usually gets chipped throught a game and dies weakening something else or being at very low hp.

Running Body Press>Taunt makes Mew vulnerable to all Haze, Taunt, Trick, and Toxic users, as well as to a lesser degree Encore and burn users. With Taunt in its movepool those mons have to then be faster than Mew, but the same counterplay works. Keep in mind that Mew still isn't that offensively threatening at +2 or +3:
0 SpA Mew Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Regigigas: 100-118 (27.7 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Mew Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Regigigas: 139-165 (38.5 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(Compare: 252 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Regigigas: 114-135 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 86.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)
Here's a sample list of useful long-term counterplay:

Compress

Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Defog
- Knock Off
- Taunt
Taunt Torn-T can outlast Mew with ease by being Torn-T and totally shut it down.
Tapu Koko @ Light Clay
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Taunt
- U-turn
Keep your lead alive! Screens Tapu Koko turns Mew into food for any other sweeper on your team that can take a 60 BP Stored Power or two through Light Screen. Grimmsnarl is also notable for being Dark-type, and hence casually PP stalling Mew.
Tapu Fini @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 44 SpD / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Moonblast
- Trick
- Taunt
If you're running Scarf Fini and you see a Mew that is reluctant to enter the field of battle early, hold onto that Scarf! One Trick shuts Mew down for good, and Taunt can keep it at bay if you need to keep that Scarf for something else. Body Press Mew never makes progress against any Taunt Fini.
Hydreigon @ Life Orb/Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Earth Power
- Roost
A couple of notable Dark types now, and Hydreigon is worth noting for its access to Roost, allowing it to remain healthy throughout a game, while still having a monstrous offensive presence. While Taunt Mew can threaten to PP stall you, this can be mitigated by a surprise Toxic from a teammate, or switching around.
Moltres-Galar @ Weakness Policy/Heavy-Duty Boots/Chesto Berry
Ability: Berserk
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Fiery Wrath
- Hurricane/Sleep Talk
- Agility/Taunt/Rest
Moltres-G is notable for its ability to comfortably 1v1 Body Press Mew. I can't be bothered to post all the calcs, but Mew does lose the boosting war to NP+Fiery Wrath. Rest variants have good longevity and can last surprisingly deep into a game, while Taunt variants can shut down Mew even harder. Again, if you haven't got an Agility under your belt, Taunt Mew can potentially PP stall you though.
Dragapult @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Shadow Ball
- U-turn
- Hydro Pump/Fire Blast
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 218-260 (53.9 - 64.3%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 164-194 (40.5 - 48%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. +3 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 134-158 (33.1 - 39.1%)
Add in the chance for a Special Defense drop and Dragapult is pretty solid as a Mew killer, as spamming Roost at +2 doesn't save Mew. It even tanks +3 Stored Power:
0 SpA Mew Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 192-226 (60.5 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Obviously similarly powerful Ghost or Dark attacks break through Mew without any problems.

In short, just think of Taunt Mew as Double Dance Reuniclus+Taunt, and think think of Body Press Mew as Focus Blast Reuniclus without Magic Guard. Mew is a wincon, not a breaker, so the easiest way to beat it is to beat the rest of its team before they wear down your answers. And if all else fails, there's always crits.

 

[Endrism]

Now that the post-Kyurem meta seems to have gotten comfortable, viability slate is done, and we all seem to be settling into the new SSOU, how about a question to spice things up?

Is there any unconventional/underrated Pokemon or Movesets that you think are more viable than people think?

Since this forum just got over a massive discussion on it, let's leave Terrakion out of this one lol

As usual, I'll start:

Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Bold Nature
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp / Whirlwind
- Roost
- U-turn

I put a set like this up on the heat forums months and months ago, and since then it's been refined a bit. Introducting BULKarona.

Do you want a way to shut down Weavile immediately one way or another? Do you also want a mon that can eat 2 Shadow Balls from Pult at the same time? Need a status spreader? Phaser? Pivot? Well this monster can be that. In previous generations the thought of a non QD, bulky variant of Volcarona was a joke, a meme, but with Heavy Duty Boots and a lack of Greninja, this thing can actually play a really good role on a team. Swaps in on +0 Weavile and wins every time, as even if it sets up to +2 on the swap, a +2 Knock cannot kill this Volcarona, and Flamethrower is an easy KO.
Don't even think about Triple Axle unless you want to get burned in an instant. It completely hard walls Rillaboom as Grassy Glide, Wood Hammer, Non STAB Knock, Superpower, all pathetic. 2 Pult Shadow Balls don't kill and allow for some nice roost action. Does Dragonite or Garchomp think they can set up? No matter, click Will-O-Wisp or Whirlwind and say bye bye to your boosts. Double Iron Bash? Insignificant. In a pinch scenario you can even swap it in on Gapdos or Splashifu to try and burn on the CC.

Is this thing the hot new thing, the new meta? The thing that will shake the fabric of all of smogon?

no.

However I do believe it's not a heat niche meme either. Although it's difficult to fit, when it fits it can actually do some serious work, especially in a Weavile heavy meta.

Other Options for the set include:

Fiery Dance over Flamethrower: I mean if you think you can gain momentum with it sure? but I think flamethrowers just a better bet.
Toxic over Will-O-Wisp/Whirlwind: It's an option, but it kind of conflicts with Flame Body.
Defog over Will-O-Wisp/Whirlwind: There are better defoggers out there, but if you ABSOLUTELY need it, be my guest.

252 Def over 156 Def / 100 SpDef: Beats Black Glasses Bisharp, and guarantees you live a +2 EQ from Chomp, otherwise it's a roll.

252 SpDef ove- Absolutely Not. Don't do that, you will starting dropping to every Weavile you come across, it's not worth it, dont.

CALCS

252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Volcarona: 157-186 (41.9 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Volcarona: 144-172 (38.5 - 45.9%) -- approx. 3HKO
+4 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Volcarona in Grassy Terrain: 161-191 (43 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Volcarona: 343-405 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcarona: 307-363 (82 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Volcarona: 144-169 (38.5 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Volcarona: 256-303 (68.4 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Volcarona: 154-183 (41.1 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Volcarona: 142-168 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Volcarona: 156-184 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Arctozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Volcarona: 316-372 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage

Things you cannot beat 1v1:
You couldn't before, you still cant.
+1 DWB will kill you, but if hes +0 you can take em.
You can beat scarf variants, but not Specs variants.
Your worst nightmare.

Give it a try, I'd love to see people's thoughts on it and other underrated sets/mons people are using in the meta. Cheers!

 

[Red Raven]

Is there any unconventional/underrated Pokemon or Movesets that you think are more viable than people think?

Well, for me, the one mon that I think is underrated is


Kommo-o @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 92 SpD / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Toxic
- Protect
- Body Press
- Stealth Rock

Aside from the fact that the innocent, indecisive ice cream loving champion now has this one, this mon is actually legit in the tier. I think we can all agree that if you cannot offensively pressure Blacephalon, it's probably gonna spam shadow ball and there is nothing you can do about it unless you have something like Mandibuzz or Blissey. Even Weavile doesn't really want to mindlessly switch into it but Kommo o on the other hand, easily deals with that annoying clown in a similar manner in which Tyranitar shuts it down. While that alone is a strong enough reason to use this, it doesn't really end there. Rillaboom, Melmetal, Kartana, Victini and Zeraora are all nearly shut down by it. Although you will need another check to Kartana since it is a massive pain in the ass but the last two are especially relevant as Kom can take a lot of pressure of your ground type and it even abuses Rillaboom's own terrain. Oh, and it makes Heatran's life utterly miserable too. Kom does let Fini in for free but that isn't the worst thing in the world and the other fairies except for Clef don't really wanna get poisoned

The hp and def evs are just from its analysis page but I changed the speed to 16 so it can outspeed Crawdaunt and dumped the extra into spdef. Speaking of Crawdaunt, Kommo o also griefs rain so much that it's almost funny to see Barraskewda have minimal impact at all if I don't screw this mon up

The other set that I think is a bit underrated is of course, Cynthia's ace


Garchomp @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 192 Atk / 100 SpA / 216 Spe
Naive Nature
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Aqua Tail / Toxic

Mix Chomp has always been a thing for Trigon knows how long know but that set is mostly used because of draco meteor which beats most common Garchomp checks. However, I don't think draco is of much value now since Lando goes spdef which is the main target. It makes for a great lure against Slowbro but that's just one target. So, I've been tinkering with its evs and decided to just give it life orb. With 100 spa, you two shot the standard Corviknight set, 216+ spe to outrun Urshifu and the rest dumped into attack. The last move would depend on what you really wanna do. Aqua tail allows you to get rid of the flying Heatrans while hitting Landorus hard while toxic would cause you to be walled by flying Heatrans but in return, cripples Landorus, Zapdos and Tornadus and limiting their ability to remove your rocks. Then again, mix Chomp has always been notorious for losing to Zapdos and Tornadus anyway so I think that aqua tail is the superior option

Hide

100 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 200-237 (50.1 - 59.3%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 192 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 179-213 (46.8 - 55.7%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO

192 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 234-276 (72.4 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[cyberacc]

Both of these are honestly quite standard: If you're going for status on Volcarona I would prefer Toxic to make the bulky waters scared (Willoing a Pex does nothing since you still need to pair Volc with some sort of neutral to crunch Pex Heatran) and as for LO Gar defensive Kommo-O they're known but annoying since their typings and coverage can annoy the hell out of HO (for Kommo-O) and Balance (for Gar)

on topic: One I would say has picked up a lot of steam lately as a stall player is SPdef Rest Garchomp. Being a rocker, Heatran hardcounter and also having a second way of annoying VoltTurn is really good while having an EQ that can actively frighten enemy Pex and annoy Ferrothorn. On top of that you can keep it at some ridiculously low percentages before healing off hard hits due to its good speed tier.

 

[Smashburn]

Both of these are honestly quite standard: If you're going for status on Volcarona I would prefer Toxic to make the bulky waters scared (Willoing a Pex does nothing since you still need to pair Volc with some sort of neutral to crunch Pex Heatran) and as for LO Gar defensive Kommo-O they're known but annoying since their typings and coverage can annoy the hell out of HO (for Kommo-O) and Balance (for Gar)

on topic: One I would say has picked up a lot of steam lately as a stall player is SPdef Rest Garchomp. Being a rocker, Heatran hardcounter and also having a second way of annoying VoltTurn is really good while having an EQ that can actively frighten enemy Pex and annoy Ferrothorn. On top of that you can keep it at some ridiculously low percentages before healing off hard hits due to its good speed tier.

You beat me to the punch lol. I was planning on writing a whole segment about SpD Chomp, I still might. Even outside of Rest it manages its role well, and this is certainly more of a meta trend than a fad. The underrated SpD Chomp carries many defensive and offensive tools that cannot be compared, which gives it a genuinely viable niche in the meta (moreso than before). Garchomp's movepool variety gives it more tools to annoy teams than competing SpD Ground-types like Landorus, and Hippowdon-- who has taken a hit in usage with an uptick in checks due to meta shifts.

I think Aqua Tail is an honorable mention for more offensive sets. It's been previously looked at as an unconventional pick for most teams, being reserved for rain and the occasional deviant. However, with the presence of SpD Landorus-Therian and Air Baloon Heatran among less significant others, it fills a conventional moveslot on many sets.

Here is an unconventional set, I was quite entertained by it when I saw it.

Sub CM (Speed Boost)

Blacephalon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 232 HP / 4 Def / 20 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower
- Substitute​

Step 1: Get in front of something that assumes you're either Specs or Scarf, Step 2: Profit. This thing wreaks havoc on unprepared teams, and the risk of staying in front of it is reason alone to give it the opportunity to set up. Additionally, avoid status from and threaten supposed "checks" with Substitute. Due to the investment in bulk and speed it lacks power, which is a tradeoff for the opportunity to absolutely steamroll unsuspecting teams.

 

[ProNooob]

You beat me to the punch lol. I was planning on writing a whole segment about SpD Chomp, I still might. Even outside of Rest it manages its role well, and this is certainly more of a meta trend than a fad. The underrated SpD Chomp carries many defensive and offensive tools that cannot be compared, which gives it a genuinely viable niche in the meta (moreso than before). Garchomp's movepool variety gives it more tools to annoy teams than competing SpD Ground-types like Landorus, and Hippowdon-- who has taken a hit in usage with an uptick in checks due to meta shifts.

I think Aqua Tail is an honorable mention for more offensive sets. It's been previously looked at as an unconventional pick for most teams, being reserved for rain and the occasional deviant. However, with the presence of SpD Landorus-Therian and Air Baloon Heatran among less significant others, it fills a conventional moveslot on many sets.

Here is an unconventional set, I was quite entertained by it when I saw it.

Sub CM (Speed Boost)

Blacephalon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 232 HP / 4 Def / 20 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower
- Substitute​

Step 1: Get in front of something that assumes you're either Specs or Scarf, Step 2: Profit. This thing wreaks havoc on unprepared teams, and the risk of staying in front of it is reason alone to give it the opportunity to set up. Additionally, avoid status from and threaten wall supposed "checks." Due to the investment in bulk and speed it lacks power, which is a tradeoff for the opportunity to absolutely steamroll unsuspecting teams.

I mean beast boost already raises spatk might as well run amnesia (this js a joke pls dont kill me). Is this blace a wincon or a stallbrealer? Id assume wincon because blissey hard walls it?

 

[Smashburn]

I mean beast boost already raises spatk might as well run amnesia (this js a joke pls dont kill me). Is this blace a wincon or a stallbrealer? Id assume wincon because blissey hard walls it?

It would be your wincon, but in this case it actually walls Blissey, rather than the reverse. Thanks to Sub it can use Blissey as setup fodder for CM, however, I would be cautious around Blissey + Dragapult as it phases Blacephalon with no speed boosts. Other versions of the set are useful too, ones with Taunt to set up on both Blissey and Toxapex, but most of the time I like Sub.

 

[Red Raven]

Both of these are honestly quite standard: If you're going for status on Volcarona I would prefer Toxic to make the bulky waters scared (Willoing a Pex does nothing since you still need to pair Volc with some sort of neutral to crunch Pex Heatran) and as for LO Gar defensive Kommo-O they're known but annoying since their typings and coverage can annoy the hell out of HO (for Kommo-O) and Balance (for Gar)

on topic: One I would say has picked up a lot of steam lately as a stall player is SPdef Rest Garchomp. Being a rocker, Heatran hardcounter and also having a second way of annoying VoltTurn is really good while having an EQ that can actively frighten enemy Pex and annoy Ferrothorn. On top of that you can keep it at some ridiculously low percentages before healing off hard hits due to its good speed tier.

What's the set for the spdef rest Chomp? Is it just max hp, max spdef with rest, rocks, eq and whatever?

 

[Smashburn]

What's the set for the spdef rest Chomp? Is it just max hp, max spdef with rest, rocks, eq and whatever?

Not sure if you had seen it, I had a few variants in my Next Best Thing Garchomp submission.

I personally use these EV Spreads, with move depending on my team's needs:

(Careful) 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe

(Careful/Jolly) 252 HP / 200 SpD / 56 Spe

First one is basic SpD Chomp, 4 Spe EVs to creep 240. The second is to outspeed offensive Heatran, Careful for Modest Heatran and Jolly for Timid. EVs can always be tweaked to your liking, but I found these to be the most consistent.