Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v5 (usage in post #547)

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Hey, just wanted to share my thoughts on a mon I think is currently being slept on.
mudsdale.jpg

Mudsdale @ Assault Vest
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Heavy Slam
- Close Combat
- Rock Slide
Assault Vest Mudsdale is a pretty underrated set atm. In general, it's just a great blanket check to the majority of special attackers in the tier, and it only got better with the introduction of new powerful special attackers from the DLC. It's super useful to just pivot Mudsdale in and build off from that momentum, or to use it to stop something like NP Hydriegon from blasting your whole team. Mons like Alakazam, Magnezone, Magearna, Volcarona, and Clefable can't really do anything to Mudsdale, and they're all essentially a free switch. This allows the player to gain momentum and puts them into a position where they can either pivot out Mudsdale as the opponent (likely) switches, or fire off one of Mudsdale's powerful attacks to put some dents into the opponent's team. Of course, Mudsdale can get worn down after repeated switches due to no recovery, so it is dependent on Wish support to stay healthy. Still, Mudsdale has a pretty solid niche on bulky balanced teams, and definitely should be looked at more.
+1 224+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mudsdale: 184-217 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Mudsdale Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Magearna: 228-270 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mudsdale: 162-192 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Mudsdale Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 243-286 (96.8 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mudsdale: 115-136 (28.4 - 33.6%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Mudsdale Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 468-552 (165.9 - 195.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mudsdale: 148-175 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Mudsdale Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 372-440 (119.6 - 141.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mudsdale: 121-144 (29.9 - 35.6%) -- 31.7% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Mudsdale Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Blade: 450-530 (172.4 - 203%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mudsdale: 286-339 (70.7 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mudsdale Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 228-270 (70.1 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (sets Hydriegon up to be revenge killed)
 
The lose of z-move specialy coversion Z make a weak mon outclassed by most other breaker...
While the loss of Z-moves did fuck Porygon-Z over hard, calling it weak is an overstatement. 135 base attack is nothing to scoff at, and the fact that it even has Nasty Plot to bolster its special attack even further. I do agree that it is outclassed by other breakers, though, but given Porygon-Z's role may now be limited to Nasty Plot sweeping, calling it a breaker seems inaccurate given Porygon-Z's (likely) new role.
 
Hello people, today in the new episode of the new player trying to survive
I have been experimenting on Porygon-Z
Alkazoth´s set idea about it its the best set in my opinion (I tried Boltbeam+Tri Attack but is just bad)

Porygon-Z @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tri Attack
- Shadow Ball
- Hyper Beam
- Trick

Spikes support is really appreciated, Porygon-Z usually destroys one stall/slow mon without priority and afther that dies of just about a single light breeze, this mon is unholy outclassed by Volcarona in almost every aspect possible but the fun you get when you ruin a Magearna sweep attemp with trick its just worth it

Any opinions about this mon before it falls into the shadow realm?
Interesting. I've been running modest nature Porygon-Z for the extra power. I can see why timid would be better, since it outspeeds adamant band Urshifu, one of its biggest threats, but gets wiped by scarf Urshifu. There are a few things I prefer about Porygon-Z over Volcarona.

Porygon-Z isn't as dependent on its item as Volc is. With the prevalence of knock off in the tier, pokemon are bound to lose their items at some point in the battle. Porygon-Z doesn't need its specs that badly, since its tri attack and hyper beam hit hard without it thanks to its incredible spatk and adaptability. It even runs trick, so it'll be switching items with stall mons to screw them over anyway. Volc however, NEEDS its boots to survive, and if it doesn't have its boots, rocks does half damage upon switch in, which is devastating to people who wanna sweep with it.

Another thing I like about that Porygon-Z set over Volc is it doesn't need to set up. Volc's able to sweep after it sets up enough quiver dances, but sometimes Volc won't have the time to set up due to the amount of common Volc checks (spdef Pex, Azu, Lycanroc, Daunt, etc.) so it might be tough to try to find away around that. Porygon-Z doesn't need to set up since it runs specs, so its spatk is equivalent to Volc's after 1 quiver dance. Adaptability raises its stab to 2, so that makes tri attack roughly the same base power as Volc's stab fire blast (minus the 85% accuracy). This makes it better for nuking in a pinch without the need for setting up.

Porygon-Z utilizing trick+specs makes it an ideal wall/stallbreaker, since giving specs to mons like Ferro, Pex, and Corv ruins rhweir their usage of utility and hate being choicelocked. It forces them to use one status move only when sent out. I've also loved how great this strat ruins cm+shift gear+stored power Magearna. Specs stored power without any boosts still hits poorly, and prevents Mag from ever wanting to set up. I mention this because Mag is one of the biggest threats in the metagame rn due to its diverse movepool, great spatk, steel+fairy typing, and relatively strong bulk, and being able to ruin stallbreaking Mag's cm+shift gear+stored power set up is such a gratifying feeling.

Overall, Volc might be a better mon since it's got much better special bulk and speed. Porygon-Z's walled by mons like Chansey and spdef Pex, while Volc can easily take care of Pex assuming it's running psychic. Regardless, I still love using it since it's such a satisfying end-game nuke and has an overall better ability (adaptability > flame body and swarm).
 
I agree that porygon Z can be usefull as a breaker / trick user - but its kinda telegraphed, trick works with magearna because people expect a plethora of sets and can get the oponent answers with their guards down, porygon Z only viable set is trick so its harder to use. Also I don`t get why the comparison of Pory and Volca, they have absolutely nothing in common except for the fact they both use the special atk stat to deal damage, seems kinda forced imo. To me porygon really gets kinda ruined because he cant learn flamethrower, normal + ghost + fire coverage would be dope

But I agree he is definitely viable, specs adaptability tri attack is a splashable nuke and hyper beam has the potential to destroy stall
 

Gomi

yep
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View attachment 256528
Hydreigon's 4mms problem has started to become a bit of an issue. Prior to the dlc it ran draco,pulse,flash cannon on its np set. But now mage has dropped and it considers to drop draco or cannon for flamethrower. Moreover, I've used or seen only scarf hydreigon since the dlc dropped.
I'm a little confused here, I'm pretty sure flamethrower was already an option over dark pulse? There's no reason to drop such critical moves to keep a midground since Draco nukes everything but steels and fairies anyways. This isn't to say Magearna isn't annoying ( +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 244-289 (67.2 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ) but it certainly isn't because of lacking moveslots.
 
So far so good, it's dope to finally have a metagame rather than like 10 viable pokemon that make up every team

Urshifu: Great mon, and great meta addition. The amount of pressure this thing exerts on bad teams is pretty extreme. Nonetheless, I think it's a force for good in the metagame that punishes the most standard TeleClef builds with guaranteed 2HKO's on CB Wicked Blow. Its ability might be broken, but I guarantee mons like Galar Weezing, Hawlucha, and +Def Clefable will find their way into this meta. For those too put off by it, you can always run +Def Amoongus or Toxapex to cut the guesswork out. I still feel like having NP Sash Zam (among other sash users) and other more niche defenses and RKs will keep Urshifu in the "powerful if used correctly" camp, and it will always always always struggle against stall because of Clefable/Mandi/Pex cores.

Comfey: The Wreath of Death is back, and I think it kinda makes sense in OU this time around. CM+Stored Power gets all the runaway train power of its regular Psychic type users, but with the important ability to now priority sweep the tier's ever popular dark, dragons mons like Dragapult, Kommo-o, Hydregion, and Urshifu. It can also Taunt potential phasers/status-spreaders like Pex, or run Specs + utility moves like U-Turn or Defog to allow Magnezone to come in and trap scary opposing steel types. Overall, I think this mon is going to have a lovely niche in the C ranks. Oh and it gets Giga Drain too, but currently I don't really see the appeal.

Blissey: Like other teleport users, Bliss benefits massively from this tech. Instead of being the god of all momentum-draining walls, now you've got something that only really fears strong fighting attacks and can either Teleport or Wishpass to help teams stay healthy in the face of raging Volcaronas, Zams, and so on. Definitely underrated and imo better than Chansey because of Knock Off Pex/Tang but Chansey's definitely a better staller.

Weezing Galar: When this thing used to just exist to check Conk, it was meh. But with Urshifu everywhere, it's a legit pick and it has enough coverage to remain deadly. Also, the shift away from SpA Dragapult to DD/physical is a good one, as WG soaks Dragon Darts and, since you're not forced to run Clefable on every team now, you can make up for its role with Slowbro or Blissey, both of whom hate the common strong Fighting/Dark coverage.

Clefable: God, it's good to see Clef get put down a notch. Being 2HKO'd by CB Urshi is absolutely justice for thing, and though it's still good, those 4 moveslots are beginning to feel a little cramped. I'm personally just waiting til people rediscover Bold Clef again and start using that.

Marowak Alola: a mon you always wanted to be cool finally is. Great coverage, great power, no setup needed, and it can set up rocks. Poltergeist, Flare Blitz, and EQ are plenty of coverage to annoy many common mons.

Mandibuzz: The predominant Marolola, Urshi, DD Dragapult, and Hydreigon check. Definitely going to replace Corviknight if trends keep up.

comfey replay so you know i'm not kidding
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1138436389
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1138438169
 

Gross Sweep

Plan Ahead
is a CAP Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
After looking at the Role Compendium, I just wanted to mention something I've been using recently and have had a lot of success with.


Mandibuzz (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 SpD
Impish Nature
- Foul Play / Brave Bird
- Defog
- U-turn / Knock Off / Brave Bird
- Roost
Phys def Mandi is pretty useful in the current climate. It's still naturally bulky enough to deal with a lot of threats Sp.Def would, such as Volc and non-LO Zam, while maximizing its ability to deal with things like Marowak and Urshifu. The given Sp.Def allows you to always live a +2 Dazzling gleam from non-lo Zam, allowing you to U-Turn into a revenge killer or knock out a slightly weakened Zam with Foul Play/Knock Off. Taking 76% max from a +1 Volcarona Fire Blast, Mandi can do a minimum of 82% with brave bird, guaranteed living even after a max role FB and BB recoil. While this set obviously isn't as well equipped, the extra defense can be useful in some games where you get quickly worn down by opposing breakers.
I am similarly enjoying Mandibuzz. The immediate meta trends following the release of the DLC really favor Mandibuzz, giving it an opportunity to thrive. With that in mind I have a suggestion for your Mandibuzz spread, which is moving 16 EVs from Def to Speed. 16 EVs wont drastically hinder Mandi's bulk, while at the same time allowing Mandibuzz to hit 200 speed. This is mainly to help with Azumaill, as Adamant max speed Azu hits 199. Mandi probably shouldn't be a teams first/best answer to Azu, but Mandi has enough bulk to eat a +6 Aqua Jet (takes a max of 64%) and KO back with Foul Play after Rocks (Roll in Azu's favor without). Variants without Foul Play will benefit from this too as it makes Mandi harder to set up on as it can either Knock off the Sitrus berry or get in 2 Brave Birds for solid damage. Once again it's a little change that wont effect the mon very much overall, but I think will be beneficial given the popularity of Azu straight out the gates this DLC.
 
I'm a little confused here, I'm pretty sure flamethrower was already an option over dark pulse? There's no reason to drop such critical moves to keep a midground since Draco nukes everything but steels and fairies anyways. This isn't to say Magearna isn't annoying ( +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 244-289 (67.2 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ) but it certainly isn't because of lacking moveslots.
Personally I feel keeping dark pulse and draco even though draco/cannon/flamethrower atleast hits the tier neutrally.But dark pulse is much more consistent since u are forced to draco on stuff like alolan wak which cuts your sweeping potential. Hydreigon runs flashcannon only for the bulky fairies aka clefable. You can lure clef to eat hits from stuff like urshifu which makes it unable to switch into hydreigon later. This is pretty much situational but with proper team support hydra can work out without flashcannon.
 

Gomi

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is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
Personally I feel keeping dark pulse and draco even though draco/cannon/flamethrower atleast hits the tier neutrally.But dark pulse is much more consistent since u are forced to draco on stuff like alolan wak which cuts your sweeping potential. Hydreigon runs flashcannon only for the bulky fairies aka clefable. You can lure clef to eat hits from stuff like urshifu which makes it unable to switch into hydreigon later. This is pretty much situational but with proper team support hydra can work out without flashcannon.
I wouldn't call having to click draco instead of pulse on a pokemon that's both SR weak, unable to run heavy duty boots effectively, and unable to KO you in return "4MSS", this just seems like having movepool variation depending on the team. If your Hydrei's Draco/Flame/Flash, it doesn't just lose its usefulness upon seeing an Alolawak in team preview, It barely changes much at all even.
 
Hey, just wanted to share my thoughts on a mon I think is currently being slept on.
View attachment 256546
Mudsdale @ Assault Vest
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Heavy Slam
- Close Combat
- Rock Slide
Assault Vest Mudsdale is a pretty underrated set atm. In general, it's just a great blanket check to the majority of special attackers in the tier, and it only got better with the introduction of new powerful special attackers from the DLC. It's super useful to just pivot Mudsdale in and build off from that momentum, or to use it to stop something like NP Hydriegon from blasting your whole team. Mons like Alakazam, Magnezone, Magearna, Volcarona, and Clefable can't really do anything to Mudsdale, and they're all essentially a free switch. This allows the player to gain momentum and puts them into a position where they can either pivot out Mudsdale as the opponent (likely) switches, or fire off one of Mudsdale's powerful attacks to put some dents into the opponent's team. Of course, Mudsdale can get worn down after repeated switches due to no recovery, so it is dependent on Wish support to stay healthy. Still, Mudsdale has a pretty solid niche on bulky balanced teams, and definitely should be looked at more.
+1 224+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mudsdale: 184-217 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Mudsdale Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Magearna: 228-270 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mudsdale: 162-192 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Mudsdale Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 243-286 (96.8 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mudsdale: 115-136 (28.4 - 33.6%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Mudsdale Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 468-552 (165.9 - 195.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mudsdale: 148-175 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Mudsdale Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 372-440 (119.6 - 141.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mudsdale: 121-144 (29.9 - 35.6%) -- 31.7% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Mudsdale Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Blade: 450-530 (172.4 - 203%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mudsdale: 286-339 (70.7 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mudsdale Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 228-270 (70.1 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (sets Hydriegon up to be revenge killed)
Any reason in particular for running inner focus over stamina? I get that it is slow and therefore vulnerable to flinches, but out of the mons you mentioned only hydreigon runs a flinching move (dark pulse), but I don't really think it's great against hydreigon anyways, plus if you face a special attacker you can be better prepared for a physical attacker. Also I'd say Body Press>Close Combat, with stamina that could put a TON of hurt on the other team, and also close combat reduces defenses, which doesn't work if you're running it to be bulky. I'd also take some HP or Sp. Def EVs and put them into attack, not a lot, but most of the calcs allow for a bit less bulk, and will do the same job, overall I think this set could be good, but I don't think it'll be a staple.
 

AllTerrainVen0moth

Banned deucer.
Let's talk about stall.

:ss/chansey: Believe me when I say, Chansey is going to be EVERYWHERE on stall teams nowaways, especially with its new access to Teleport. Fortunately, Wish and Teleport are incompatible with each other, otherwise, well... you probably know what's coming.

:ss/blissey: I can totally see this big blob going UUBL, as its basically slightly less bulkier Chansey. Thats basically it.

:ss/clefable: Still the premier WishPort threat, as Chansey cant do it. Remember Pre-DLC when people were talking about banning this thing to ubers?

:ss/tangrowth: The Noodle Pokemon is back, and its as defensive as ever! I really dont have an opinion on it.

:ss/skarmory: :ss/corviknight: Skarmory outclasses Corviknight in every way possible. Sure, Skarmory doesnt get U-turn, but this is stall we're talking about. Im seriously having PTSD to last gen just thinking about it.

:ss/slowbro: This derpy thing (seriously, what is it?) will probably continue to do what it was doing in NatDex Ou, and be a staple of stall teams. Now if only Alolomola was back...
 
Any reason in particular for running inner focus over stamina? I get that it is slow and therefore vulnerable to flinches, but out of the mons you mentioned only hydreigon runs a flinching move (dark pulse), but I don't really think it's great against hydreigon anyways, plus if you face a special attacker you can be better prepared for a physical attacker. Also I'd say Body Press>Close Combat, with stamina that could put a TON of hurt on the other team, and also close combat reduces defenses, which doesn't work if you're running it to be bulky. I'd also take some HP or Sp. Def EVs and put them into attack, not a lot, but most of the calcs allow for a bit less bulk, and will do the same job, overall I think this set could be good, but I don't think it'll be a staple.
Main reason for Inner Focus is used over Stamina is just because of the way better match up against Togekiss and Jirachi. Stamina on paper looks good, but in practice, it usually doesn't really do much. Whatever mon the opponent switches in on Mudsdale will likely beat Mudsdale even with +1 def (e.g. Rillaboom). In theory, you could use Stamina to beat things like Defog Corviknight 1-on-1, but most of the time the player's better off just switching Mudsdale out to another mon to sway momentum for their team.
Primary purpose of Close Combat is to just chunk switch ins and to take out Hydriegon (or if it's at full hp and the NP set, set it up to be revenge killed). Even with Stamina giving +1 def, Body Press' damage output is much lower than Close Combat's. This is notable for things like bopping Ferrothorn and Chansey on the switch.
0 Atk Mudsdale Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 124-148 (35.2 - 42%) -- 84.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 Def Mudsdale Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 102-122 (28.9 - 34.6%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Close Combat overall makes it harder for Ferrothorn to make repeated switch ins into Mudsdale. If the Ferrothorn has Rocky Helmet instead of Leftovers, it can only switch into Mudsdale's Close Combat once.

0 Atk Mudsdale Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 276-326 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 0 Def Mudsdale Body Press vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 228-270 (32.4 - 38.4%) -- 98% chance to 3HKO
After Stealth Rock, a Chansey that switches in on Mudsdale's Close Combat will always have >50% hp remaining. This will force the opponent to Softboil with Chansey, in which case the player is given a free switch. If they instead go for Stealth Rock or Toxic as Mudsdale is switched out, it becomes very easy to pressure Chansey out for afterwards. Should be noted that Close Combat's def/sp,def drop do not matter in this match up at all.

0 Atk Mudsdale Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 228-270 (70.1 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Def Mudsdale Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 126-150 (38.7 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Close Combat is preferred here. If Hydreigon is running the Nasty Plot set, Mudsdale doesn't even get the chance to proc Stamina. Close Combat's higher power gives you a much easier time revenge killing Hydriegon afterwards.
 
Geraldinho used Rising Voltage!
It's super effective!
(The opposing croacroa lost 47% of its health!)

Turn 17

The opposing croacroa used Roost!
The opposing croacroa had its HP restored.
(The opposing croacroa loses Flying type this turn.)

Geraldinho used Rising Voltage!
(The opposing croacroa lost 47% of its health!)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1138756491

Why was the damage equal?
 
Geraldinho used Rising Voltage!
It's super effective!
(The opposing croacroa lost 47% of its health!)

Turn 17

The opposing croacroa used Roost!
The opposing croacroa had its HP restored.
(The opposing croacroa loses Flying type this turn.)

Geraldinho used Rising Voltage!
(The opposing croacroa lost 47% of its health!)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1138756491

Why was the damage equal?
Rising Voltage doubles in power when the opposing pokemon is affected by Electric Terrain. In the first case, Voltage was Super Effective, so it had an effective power of 140; but the opposing pokemon was Flying-Type, so it wasn't under the effect of Electric Terrain. In the second case, the opposing pokemon used Roost, temporarily removing its Flying-Type and as such grounding it, thereby making it affected by Electric Terrain. In this case, Rising Voltages power becomes doubled to 140, but is normal effectiveness.
 
Hello people, today in the new episode of the new player trying to survive
I have been experimenting on Porygon-Z
Alkazoth´s set idea about it its the best set in my opinion (I tried Boltbeam+Tri Attack but is just bad)

Porygon-Z @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tri Attack
- Shadow Ball
- Hyper Beam
- Trick

Spikes support is really appreciated, Porygon-Z usually destroys one stall/slow mon without priority and afther that dies of just about a single light breeze, this mon is unholy outclassed by Volcarona in almost every aspect possible but the fun you get when you ruin a Magearna sweep attemp with trick its just worth it

Any opinions about this mon before it falls into the shadow realm?
Porygon Z would have been pretty decent before the dlc, but now that Chansey, Magearna etc are out as well as the greater power level AND the loss of Z moves + Hidden Power I'm sad to say Porygon Z probably won't see much usage.

Also if you want to run a stupid set Band Double Edge hits harder than Tri Attack!

Edit: I know Specs Modest Hyper Beam Porygon Z shouldn't go anywhere near OU but the raw power is neat, so here's a bunch of stupid calcs for fun.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 426-502 (108.1 - 127.4%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 310-366 (101.9 - 120.3%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 243-286 (69 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery *Tri-Attack 2HKOs at about 80%

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 350-414 (49.7 - 58.8%) *potential KO at 70% with Stealth Rocks!

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 368-434 (110.1 - 129.9%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 315-371 (78.7 - 92.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 244-288 (81 - 95.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 275-324 (80.6 - 95%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 333-392 (96.8 - 113.9%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 302-356 (107 - 126.2%)

Also worth noting is two Tri-Attacks out-damage one Hyper Beam so you can just pepper slower bulky mons without much fear. All these resisted Hyper Beam OHKOs convert to Tri-Attack OHKOs with neutral damage. Tri-Attack hits with so much power than it cleanly 2HKOs almost every single thing in OU, and OHKOs anything squishier than a 0/0 Volcarona (which is quite tough specially). Pair it with Teleport to switch in for free multiple times and just wreck house. As everyone knows from Cinderace's Zen Headbutt a 20% secondary effect isn't insignificant and Tri-Attack does have a burn / freeze / paralyze chance. Not super relevant since most targets just straight up die but it could be useful at some point.

Oh but Ghosts!

252+ SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 222-262 (85 - 100.3%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 374-442 (117.9 - 139.4%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 374-440 (143.2 - 168.5%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Marowak-Alola: 352-416 (108.9 - 128.7%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mimikyu: 282-334 (112.3 - 133%)

Is Porygon Z S tier? No. But it's a funky set that could pull its weight in some games. But Teleport support makes it easy to switch in and when it IS in your opponent better predict well or something will probably die. Well, except AV Magearna I guess.
 
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Necrozma @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 236 HP / 20 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Photon Geyser
- Heat Wave
- Calm Mind
- Moonlight

I find this to be the most reliable Mage check right now. Switch this in the moment Mage comes in for a sweep and start Calm Minding. With both mons at +6, Necrozma avoids the 2HKO from a 320 BP Stored Power (6 Calm Minds, 1 Shift Gear) while 2HKOing Mage with Heat Wave:

+6 0 SpA Necrozma Heat Wave vs. +6 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 148-176 (49.1 - 58.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
+6 0 SpA Necrozma Heat Wave vs. +6 248 HP / 16 SpD Magearna: 146-174 (40.2 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Finch set, Necro KOs first)
+6 252 SpA Magearna Stored Power (320 BP) vs. +6 236 HP / 252+ SpD Necrozma: 135-159 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- 48.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 0 SpA Magearna Stored Power (320 BP) vs. +6 236 HP / 252+ SpD Necrozma: 111-131 (28.1 - 33.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not to mention that Necrozma is very versatile in its own right. Photon Geyser is a great move that ignores abilities, enabling it to blow past Unaware Clefable and Quagsire who are both stall staples. Prism Armor reduces super effective damage, so it can eat Shadow Ball coverage from Alakazam and other Psychic types while it sets up. Moonlight provides it reliable recovery on top of Leftovers as well, so if you manage to set up with this thing you can really blow holes in teams that don't have Chansey or physical Dark types.
 
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I wanted to bring something up that I thought was a pretty interesting discussion to have.

Slowbro was really hyped up coming into the DLC as one of the best mons to join in. I remember seeing most people having it as their #1 returning mon and I would say it was deserved somewhat in theory but at the moment in the meta-game, I rarely see it and I think it is because in the current meta-game it is a bit of a liability. Marowak-Alola, Urshifu-SS, and Volcarona are so powerful it feels like Slowbro is almost always going to be passed over in favor of Toxapex or some other wall. There are also so many U-turn threats like Cinderace and Scizor, it feels like in general as a physical wall, it isn't covering the mons it should be covering. This isn't even mentioning Zeraora and Rillaboom who are still popular picks.

I could be missing something it covers that is essential in the metagame but atm I just feel like it can't slot in due to the threats.
 
I wanted to bring something up that I thought was a pretty interesting discussion to have.

Slowbro was really hyped up coming into the DLC as one of the best mons to join in. I remember seeing most people having it as their #1 returning mon and I would say it was deserved somewhat in theory but at the moment in the meta-game, I rarely see it and I think it is because in the current meta-game it is a bit of a liability. Marowak-Alola, Urshifu-SS, and Volcarona are so powerful it feels like Slowbro is almost always going to be passed over in favor of Toxapex or some other wall. There are also so many U-turn threats like Cinderace and Scizor, it feels like in general as a physical wall, it isn't covering the mons it should be covering. This isn't even mentioning Zeraora and Rillaboom who are still popular picks.

I could be missing something it covers that is essential in the metagame but atm I just feel like it can't slot in due to the threats.
The most important part about Slowbro is that it gets Teleport, which is a great move for teams ranging from Fat Balance to Bulky Offense as it can bring in Pokemon like Alakazam or Volcarona in much more easily.
 
Skarmory outclasses Corviknight in every way possible. Sure, Skarmory doesnt get U-turn, but this is stall we're talking about. Im seriously having PTSD to last gen just thinking about it.
People have been comparing the 2 since Corvinight was released, and this is just blatantly untrue.
252 Atk Mew Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 152-180 (38 - 45%)
252 Atk Mew Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 124-148 (37.1 - 44.3%)
252 SpA Mew Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 160-190 (40 - 47.5%)
252 SpA Mew Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 180-214 (53.8 - 64%)
As you can see, Skarmory is BARELY stronger on the physdef side, and MASSIVELY weaker on the spedef side.

Comparing their movepools, the only notable differences of important moves are Skarmory having stealth rocks and spikes, and Corvinight having U turn. And going off of this, you might be right, people might want to use skarm because it is the best spiker in the tier.

However, it appears to me that you have absolutely forgotten the fact that Corviknight has Pressure. And we're talking about stall here. Remember zaptos in gen 7 stall? Having a defogger that has pressure is immensely valuable for stall teams, especially with no mega sableye for deterrent. Not to MENTION the benefits of just having a pokemon with pressure and that typing and stats on your team for general support. I also find it curious that you remarked on Chansey having teleport being useful for stall, but then disregarded the usefulness of U-turn on Corvinight.

I think all in all, Corvinight is just the better pokemon, although Skarmory is plenty good, being maybe the best spiker in pokemon at the moment, depending on how good you think Ferrothorn is
 
People have been comparing the 2 since Corvinight was released, and this is just blatantly untrue.
252 Atk Mew Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 152-180 (38 - 45%)
252 Atk Mew Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 124-148 (37.1 - 44.3%)
252 SpA Mew Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 160-190 (40 - 47.5%)
252 SpA Mew Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 180-214 (53.8 - 64%)
As you can see, Skarmory is BARELY stronger on the physdef side, and MASSIVELY weaker on the spedef side.

Comparing their movepools, the only notable differences of important moves are Skarmory having stealth rocks and spikes, and Corvinight having U turn. And going off of this, you might be right, people might want to use skarm because it is the best spiker in the tier.

However, it appears to me that you have absolutely forgotten the fact that Corviknight has Pressure. And we're talking about stall here. Remember zaptos in gen 7 stall? Having a defogger that has pressure is immensely valuable for stall teams, especially with no mega sableye for deterrent. Not to MENTION the benefits of just having a pokemon with pressure and that typing and stats on your team for general support. I also find it curious that you remarked on Chansey having teleport being useful for stall, but then disregarded the usefulness of U-turn on Corvinight.

I think all in all, Corvinight is just the better pokemon, although Skarmory is plenty good, being maybe the best spiker in pokemon at the moment, depending on how good you think Ferrothorn is
Corviknight is undeniably better "goodstuff" in that it fulfills many team niches all at once. Pressure assists in Defogging over long games by letting it stall out entry hazards. U-turn is also nice against Magnezone!

Skarmory on the other hand is a Spiker, Rocker, and has Whirlwind + Counter support. Also its Body Press hit quite a bit harder than Corvi's.

Tldr Corvi fits on more teams easier but Skarm fulfills a smaller, but very important niche. Both have advantages over each other but neither is truly "better".
 
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:ss/skarmory: :ss/corviknight: Skarmory outclasses Corviknight in every way possible. Sure, Skarmory doesnt get U-turn, but this is stall we're talking about. Im seriously having PTSD to last gen just thinking about it.
If it’s for Stall teams, not really.
As a defogger, Corviknight is far better.
Skarmory does have better Physical Bulk, but that extra bulk amounts to just a few extra percentage that it might as well not exist.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 168-198 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 204-241 (51 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And there is no doubt that Corviknight has the far superior Special Bulk, but here’s the difference.
248 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 336-396 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
248 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 390-462 (116.7 - 138.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
There is like a ~1% difference of physical bulk in Skarmory’s favor and a ~30% difference of special bulk in Corviknight’s favor.
And as you can see, that means a lot in Corviknight’s survivability.
It could mean the difference between surviving against Magnezone or not, and that difference also stacks with your item.
Leftovers for Stallmons is the most ideal item, but with trappers Shed Shell is a requirement to not immediately be screwed by trappers.
With U-turn, Corviknight won’t have to worry about slower variants of Magnezone if its caught with its pants down. U-turn is also a great scouting tool as well, which also helps against Magnezone, where as Skarmory can only hope to have Shed Shell, and if that is knocked off, can only hope to be at Full Health and Whirlwind a Pokemon that can’t damage Skarmory immediately, or hope that Body Press crits.
And we can’t forget about Pressure or Bulk Up (although Bulk Up is more SemiStall instead of Pure Stall, which is [SemiStall] a better playstyle imo.).
Pressure is pretty important, especially now, thanks to the likes of Urshifu. Draining half the PP of Wick Blow and Close Combat is pretty amazing. It’s not limited to Urshifu either, as there are other Pokemon who require every last drop of their moves.

This isn’t to say Skarmory is bad, as Skarmory has access to Toxic, which can put a timer on wallbreakers, Whirlwind for emergency checking set up sweepers, and Skarmory’s Body Press has a meaningful difference in damage.

And tbh, I think Skarmory is more suited for more offensive oriented teams thanks to Hazards, something Stall prefers to keep off the field.
 
If it’s for Stall teams, not really.
As a defogger, Corviknight is far better.
Skarmory does have better Physical Bulk, but that extra bulk amounts to just a few extra percentage that it might as well not exist.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 168-198 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 204-241 (51 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And there is no doubt that Corviknight has the far superior Special Bulk, but here’s the difference.
248 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 336-396 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
248 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 390-462 (116.7 - 138.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
There is like a ~1% difference of physical bulk in Skarmory’s favor and a ~30% difference of special bulk in Corviknight’s favor.
And as you can see, that means a lot in Corviknight’s survivability.
It could mean the difference between surviving against Magnezone or not, and that difference also stacks with your item.
Leftovers for Stallmons is the most ideal item, but with trappers Shed Shell is a requirement to not immediately be screwed by trappers.
With U-turn, Corviknight won’t have to worry about slower variants of Magnezone if its caught with its pants down. U-turn is also a great scouting tool as well, which also helps against Magnezone, where as Skarmory can only hope to have Shed Shell, and if that is knocked off, can only hope to be at Full Health and Whirlwind a Pokemon that can’t damage Skarmory immediately, or hope that Body Press crits.
And we can’t forget about Pressure or Bulk Up (although Bulk Up is more SemiStall instead of Pure Stall, which is [SemiStall] a better playstyle imo.).
Pressure is pretty important, especially now, thanks to the likes of Urshifu. Draining half the PP of Wick Blow and Close Combat is pretty amazing. It’s not limited to Urshifu either, as there are other Pokemon who require every last drop of their moves.

This isn’t to say Skarmory is bad, as Skarmory has access to Toxic, which can put a timer on wallbreakers, Whirlwind for emergency checking set up sweepers, and Skarmory’s Body Press has a meaningful difference in damage.

And tbh, I think Skarmory is more suited for more offensive oriented teams thanks to Hazards, something Stall prefers to keep off the field.
Variants of Magnezone slower than Corviknight straight up do not exist, even Body Press variants invest an amount that is not realistic for Corviknight to try to creep. U-turn only works if you read a switch and is in no way a substitute to Shed Shell for Corviknight.
 

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And tbh, I think Skarmory is more suited for more offensive oriented teams thanks to Hazards, something Stall prefers to keep off the field.
Stall teams love passive damage from hazards, this has been the case since GSC, and skarm is really the best spiker they can fit. Bulky Offense and Balance don't want Skarm most of the time because its a momentum sap with extreme 4mss and they already have a far less passive option in Ferrothorn, HO doesn't want Skarm because Mew is the best hazard spam lead possibly since deo-d and deo-s, not that custap berry exists for Skarm to have a sembalance of an HO lead niche. Stall does want skarm because it has more bulk to cover its worse special defense and it appreciates the amount of utility it offers in one slot (Whirlwind and counter as last ditch anti sweep attempts, spikes, toxic, just being physically fat enough to wall things, defog if you REALLY need it) Nothing does was skarmory does for stall and nothing likely ever will, Corv's definitely an option but skarm is still skarm, it's the same thing physically with more tools that benefit a passive, residual playstyle like stall, albeit at the cost of a pretty useful ability.
 
One amazing underrated mon right now is Gastrodon. I don't believe that people realized how good its in this meta (or in every other), you all should try.

1593044131155.png

Gastrodon@ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Curse/Scald
- Recover

Checks Magearna, Clefable, Rain, Scizor, Cinderace and Volcarona, you can even opt for running mix defenses or full physical.
Hates toxic, but you can manage. Its far from perfect but is fine for now.
Earthquake does more reliable damage in general, Curse its just a personal choice but works great with Zone trapping Skar and Corvi. Toxic wears down random mons, and recover saves the day sometimes.
 
Stall teams love passive damage from hazards, this has been the case since GSC, and skarm is really the best spiker they can fit. Bulky Offense and Balance don't want Skarm most of the time because its a momentum sap with extreme 4mss and they already have a far less passive option in Ferrothorn, HO doesn't want Skarm because Mew is the best hazard spam lead possibly since deo-d and deo-s, not that custap berry exists for Skarm to have a sembalance of an HO lead niche. Stall does want skarm because it has more bulk to cover its worse special defense and it appreciates the amount of utility it offers in one slot (Whirlwind and counter as last ditch anti sweep attempts, spikes, toxic, just being physically fat enough to wall things, defog if you REALLY need it) Nothing does was skarmory does for stall and nothing likely ever will, Corv's definitely an option but skarm is still skarm, it's the same thing physically with more tools that benefit a passive, residual playstyle like stall, albeit at the cost of a pretty useful ability.
Do you mean Pure Stall or SemiStall?
And regardless, sure it’s nice, but if Hazards were removed from the game, the Stall spectrum would benefit much more than any other playstyle.
Not only is it harder for Stall to keep Hazards up against the opponent given the lack of offensive pressure, but also because that little bit of damage can add up when your entire goal is to make the game last as long as possible.
Stall hates Hazards so much that Stall teams would run multiple Hazard Control just so they didn’t have to deal with Hazards.
Yeah, Hazards are nice for wearing down the opponent for Stall teams, especially for against Stall team, but it’s way more important for Stall to keep hazards off.
There also are other members of Stall that can put Hazards up, such as T-spikes Tox and SR Chansey. Plus Skarmory has Toxic itself for residual damage against non-Steel types and non-Poison types.
Even in GSC, the fact that you had only 1 layer of Spikes with every team bringing a Rapid Spinner kind of shows how much Stall hates hazards, since such little damage (compared to now) makes a huge difference.
 
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