Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

[Endrism]

B > B+
It doesn’t enjoy Weavile and Fini being used more than ever, but it appreciates the rise of Blace, Volc, and Washtom. It faces less competition ever since Kyurem was yeeted out of the tier. It has a good speed tier for a breaker, outpacing Lele and barely outspeeding Urshifu by one point. Blissey being less common for reasons I’ll explain later also boost Hydreigon’s wallbreaking capabilities. It also pairs nicely with one of the best mons in the tier rn, Ferro who can check Fini, setup spikes, and appreciates Hydrei’s ability to check Tran. Speaking of spikes, it also happens to be immune to them, which is great in a meta filled with spike stacking BO t

As someone who started using Hydreigon the moment Kyurem got thanos snapped, I have to disagree. On paper this thing looks like it would do wonderful things, but Dark/Dragon is a terrible defensive typing. A dark type that can't check Pult is a yikes because Draco just nukes this thing out of existence. It can't touch Fini and get blasted into next week by Weavile, Kart, Koko, Clef, Alotales, Gapdos, Lele, and Chomp, and even loses to T-Tar and Melmetal despite having Earth Power. Its poor defensive typing with the abundance of CC's in the meta means things like Sub NP fall flat because it can't keep its sub up.

However, I pretty much agree with everything else you posted.

 

[658Greninja]

As someone who started using Hydreigon the moment Kyurem got thanos snapped, I have to disagree. On paper this thing looks like it would do wonderful things, but Dark/Dragon is a terrible defensive typing. A dark type that can't check Pult is a yikes because Draco just nukes this thing out of existence. It can't touch Fini and get blasted into next week by Weavile, Kart, Koko, Clef, Alotales, Gapdos, Lele, and Chomp, and even loses to T-Tar and Melmetal despite having Earth Power. Its poor defensive typing with the abundance of CC's in the meta means things like Sub NP fall flat because it can't keep its sub up.

However, I pretty much agree with everything else you posted.

Understandable, but Hydreigon outspeeds and OHKOs Lele with +2 Flash Cannon. 98 speed vs 95 speed.

 

[Endrism]

Understandable, but Hydreigon outspeeds and OHKOs Lele with +2 Flash Cannon. 98 speed vs 95 speed.

Even so, if its a 1v1 situation and both are 100% HP and +0, Lele wins. Plus Scarf Lele, while not being the most popular, is used a decent amount on ladder.

To prevent this from being a one liner tho, Ill make a nom I can't believe hasn't been said.

Tornadus-Therian - A+ > S-

Ever since Kyurem left the meta, I've found myself using it on so many teams as a nice glue. Utilizing a ground immunity, hazard remover, pivot, Regenerator, a great movepool including strong moves like Hurricane, Focus Blast, Heat Wave, Superpower, Grass Knot among some other off pick options like Sludge Wave, Psychic, Weather Ball, Dark Pulse, and even Foul Play, along with great utility with taunt, knock, toxic, and the afformentioned defog and u-turn, AND being able to set up with Nasty Plot, PLUS having decent bulk and a 121 Speed Tier? WOWZA.

This thing is a great defog user able to get in, defog away hazards, and u-turn out while regaining that juicy 33% from regen on the swap, it can set up nasty plot and use the very monstrous combo of STAB Hurricane and Focus Blast along with a possible Heat Wave over either of those moves for a very high damage sweeper, and it can use Assault Vest to eat some good special hits from big threats like Pult, Knock some items, do some damage, and easily pivot out with U-turn. It can fill many roles, outspeed many threats, do a lot of damage, and is just such a good mon to have on teams. Pairs insanely well with other Regen to pivot around like crazy.

Of course, we need to talk about its cons too.

Torn really struggles with the uprise in Weavile usage, and doesn't like the presence of things like Koko, Zera, and Eleki. Pairing it with Lando and a bulky water is my favorite way to go, with a bulky water like Colbro or Fini able to stop Weavile, and Lando able to stop the electrics in their tracks it makes Torn able to run around and pivot out to its friends to regain health when Weavile/Electric Type swaps in.

Overall great mon to have around on many teams. Think it deserves its place in S-.

 

[escarlata]

View attachment 406701B+ > A-
The fact that there are still so few checks to a healthy Goltres behind screens even with a surge of electrics, Nihilego and the omnipresent Weavile makes me believe it deserves a rise. It is a highly valuable aspect on HO while doubling as a Pult and Rilla check. Clef and Fini only 2-shot it, (CM Clef 2-shots in screens). Even its checks can fail to rkill it because of screens or flinch procs.

I would like to back this up, but for different reasons. I think screens offense was the reason why Moltres was raised to B+ in the first place. What makes it A- worthy imo is the fact that it is still very very good outside of screen offense. When we look at usage stats, Moltres most used teammates are not limited to just screens users anymore.

For a Pokémon with only like 6 viable moves, it plays surprisingly differently based on various item choices.

Out of all the stuff that can viably run a Double Dance set, few can set up multiple boosts as consistently as Moltres. It’s so easy to force a second boost, a WP activation or a Berserk activation. And on sets with Lefties/Sitrus, often it can even Confusion/Flinch hax it’s way through something like unaware Clefable and end up regenerating enough HP to be outside of Band Weavile Ice Shard range for example. Specs variants is also a very underestimated set that also have been showing up semi frequently, leveraging on its good set of resistances to commonly Choiced moves.

Tldr; if Moltres was B+ for its strengths in screens offense, the fact that it is becoming amazing outside of screens offense makes it deserving of a rise imo.

 

[Ruparajan]

Rillaboom to B+ -- Rillaboom has always been decent in the meta. With corv usage falling and specially defensive lando-t rising rillaboom is better than ever now. Even its rising checks like torn-t don't like switching into knock off. Grassy slide provides priority when under grassy terrain. Can be a good late-game cleaner with either lo/band spam. All this makes me feel its a solid B+ pokemon.

Regieleki to B-/B -- This thing can outspeed most scarfers. It provides hazard control while keeping its offensive power. Lando-t (special mention due to usage), grounds, and ferrothorn/rillaboom are its main checks. Lando-t can be taken down by explosion generally due to it running specially defensive. This is the set I prefer to run - 84 atk , 252 s.atk , +172 speed. This set outspeeds 350 scarfers. (Calc- 84 Atk Regieleki Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 213-251 (55.7 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery ) I know it's not a lot of damage but worn-out ones can be taken down if u really need to do it. The rise in weavile anyways threatens the grounds.

 

[Darkortex]

to B- | Mfer is borderline useless in this metagame. It loses to basically every hazard setter and gets permawalled by every physical wall in the tier such as corviknight, slowbro, zapdos, buzzwole and even stuff like lando-t and physically defensive ferrothorn without an incredible amount of chip damage. It lacks an ability to switch in safely versus anything not named tapu koko or clefable (the later is very shaky already), and it doesnt have the bulk to safely set up versus anything nor enough power to threaten teams that are otherwise weak to it on paper. Furthermore, its offensive checks such as rillaboom and urshifu-rs are on the rise in the meta, basically preventing it from exerting a serious offensive presence. Its sand-setting partners are also at an extremely low point in the metagame, with hippowdon on the verge of dropping to UU and Tyranitar not far behind due to how incredibly harsh the metagame is for them.

I wanted to drop this thing to C+ with its buddy dracozolt but people are probably going to be angry about that, so B- it is.

 

[ayman x]

Magnezone: A to A-

magnezone has adapted to ferrothorn usage with its body press set and this set can be pretty mediocre in non ferro matchups. this set is also not the most reliable way of trapping melmetal. corviknight, skarmory and celesteela usage is fairly low. specs, while not as common, hits like a truck but cannot necessarily trap ferro and is not as reliable a breaker because of spdef lando + steel resist style cores that naturally exist on teams, forcing mind games. overall, i don’t think magnezone belongs in the same tier as behemoths like RS, lele, garchomp and volcarona and is more of an anti-meta mon that exists to enable other physical breakers.

 

[Ruparajan]

to B- | Mfer is borderline useless in this metagame. It loses to basically every hazard setter and gets permawalled by every physical wall in the tier such as corviknight, slowbro, zapdos, buzzwole and even stuff like lando-t and physically defensive ferrothorn without an incredible amount of chip damage. It lacks an ability to switch in safely versus anything not named tapu koko or clefable (the later is very shaky already), and it doesnt have the bulk to safely set up versus anything nor enough power to threaten teams that are otherwise weak to it on paper. Furthermore, its offensive checks such as rillaboom and urshifu-rs are on the rise in the meta, basically preventing it from exerting a serious offensive presence. Its sand-setting partners are also at an extremely low point in the metagame, with hippowdon on the verge of dropping to UU and Tyranitar not far behind due to how incredibly harsh the metagame is for them.

I wanted to drop this thing to C+ with its buddy dracozolt but people are probably going to be angry about that, so B- it is.

I agree with all of your points and this thing is probably better in C+ then B- tbh.

 

[Undorian]

Very inexperienced opinion here, I have also never participated in official tiering discussions. I gladly invite any disagreements and criticism voiced and I am fully prepared to change my opinion.

Tapu Fini (A+) -> (A)

I don´t think Tapu Fini is as good as the other A+ Pokemon, at least right now. In theory, Fini is a good switch-in to the rampaging

, and can check several other notable threats such as

,

, and the ever-present Ground types (

,

). It is also a potent stall-breaker with Taunt and Whirlpool and can serve as a win-con with Calm Mind, and a revenge killer with a Choice scarf. However, this suits Weavile just fine who will cheerfully knock off Fini´s item (be it Leftovers or a Scarf) at the first opportunity, and thereafter it and its teammates can wear Tapu Fini down without her being able to do much about it, and one can even accelerate the process with the help of entry hazards.

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 76-90 (22 - 26.1%)
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 96-114 (27.9 - 33.1%)
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 101-119 (29.3 - 34.5%)
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 102-121 (29.6 - 35.1%)
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 97-115 (28.1 - 33.4%)
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 90-108 (26.1 - 31.3%)

A healthy Tapu Fini can safely switch about twice or thrice into banded Weavile, before getting simply overwhelmed; not a difficult task if one has something to sponge Fini´s hits and force her out, which brings me to what I believe to be her other notable shortcoming:

Tapu Fini isn´t very good at applying pressure onto most opposing teams. Unlike

and

, that can attempt to outstall their opponents thanks to reliable recovery, or

and

, who can pose as an immediate offensive threat in their own right, or

and

, who can "borrow" a teammate´s offensive power via pivoting, Tapu Fini relies on her own mediocre offensive tools to fight off opponents. Her offensive stats are below average by the standards of the tier, and even her supereffective STABS do not terrify foes without some offensive investment...

0 SpA Tapu Fini Scald vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Landorus-Therian: 152-180 (39.7 - 47.1%)
0 SpA Tapu Fini Scald vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Heatran: 126-150 (32.6 - 38.8%)

...making staying in with SpDef-invested Landorus-Therian sometimes surprisingly viable to bring in an offensive check to defensive Fini via U-Turn and gain valuable momentum. Nature´s Madness, a move that can quickly wear down Pokemon that otherwise wall Fini such as Ferrothorn or Toxapex, is also a move that never actually knocks out an opponent, making taking it a similarly calculable risk. I believe, with all this in mind, that Tapu Fini most of the time, fails to make enough progress against opposing offensive teams, while also not preserving enough of its team´s defensive backbone at the same time to serve as a reliable pivot.

Fini´s Calm Mind set, while potentially powerful, fails to break through

and Power Whip

and can be easily revenge-killed by faster offensive threats such as

or

. Her Scarf set, which is currently the highest-ranked among the standard sets, I believe, is also the one that provides the least defensive value to a team and is even more unreliable at checking Weavile. Her stall-breaker sets, while incredibly consistent at leveling stall teams, are well known at this point, and have led to adaptations within the metagame, such as more offensive switch-ins like Roost (or not)

and

being used to scout Fini or just switch in continuously. Dedicated Stall teams are also not currently metagame-defining, from what I know.

I believe, based on the above thoughts, that Tapu Fini in the current metagame is not as reliable as a defensive pivot against the dominant Bulky Offense style as the current viability rankings make it out to be. It gets worn down too fast and makes too little progress against opposing teams using the tools at its behest. I do not think Tapu Fini is as consistent as other Pokemon currently ranked within the same tier such as Melmetal or Clefable, and that it would fit in better with (A)-ranked Pokemon such as Corviknight or Urshifu-Rapid-Strike who are strong, but not outstanding at this point. I nominate it to drop a sub-rank and am interested to hear other people´s opinion on this matter.

I hope I worded everything right.

 

[Walletinspector62]

What’s up! It’s been a while since I’ve done one of these, and I must say I really enjoy our current meta. There are a ton of viable options to run and I believe that there are still a ton of unexplored options in the tier. Just wanted to share some noms.

A+ -> S-: Yeah this Mon is still ridiculous. This Mon is at least on par with Weavile maybe even better. With blissey usage dropping and pretty much no good dark types, shadow ball is probably the easiest button to click in the tier. Even if it can’t directly pressure something like an assault vest Melmetal, it can always just U turn out into one of its teammates, which brings me to my biggest point that Dragapult forms incredible offensive cores. If you want to run any offensively oriented Mon ever, chances are Dragapult is a perfect partner for them. Also D Dance sets are pretty good too. What more can I say, it’s Dragapult.

A+ -> S-: this Mon is just incredible. It does such a ridiculous amount of role compression. Knock user, U turner, defogger, Special Sponge, regenerator so it never gets chipped, ground immunity, and huge offensive force just in one slot is crazy. Every time Tornadus comes in it will always accomplish something, whether that be chipping something or knocking off an item. Assault vest pretty much checks every single special attacker in the tier that isn’t an electric type. The best part is is that Torn will outlast every single other Mon in the tier due to regenerator. Offensive sets are good as well, but are frustratingly inconsistent. Idk what else to say it’s just amazing and I think it deserves to move up.

A -> A-: eh. It’s main problem is that pretty much every Mon it wants to check has a way of exploiting it, whether it be Fini and torn knocking it off, Tran being able to eventually muscle past with eruption, or lele with psyshock. Being a special sponge that doesn’t like taking shadow balls or fiery wraths hurts it as well. As a future sight user Slowbro is just better. It’s still a good Mon just not as good as it has been in the past.

A- -> A: there are no switch ins to this thing still. Most teams when building bring mons to check Dragapults respectable base 100 special attack shadow ball, but do no take into account Blacephalons significantly stronger shadow balls. For instance, a Mon like sp def Lando can take at least two shadow balls from pult before dropping, but blace can cleanly 2hko even the bulkiest of landos with its specs shadow ball. Specially defensive steels like ferro and Melmetal that are used to soft check pult just get blown back by blaces fire stab of choice. For any mons that like taking shadow balls like umbreon or blissey, it just clicks trick. Also one of the scariest late game cleaners in the game with scarf thanks to beast boost and how easy it is to chip down mons in the current meta. It needs a little support but removing rocks is not a difficult task in the current metagame. Overall it’s a very solid Pokémon and I think it should move up a rank.

-> B+ at least: Rain is once again really good in the current metagame. With Kyurem gone and Rilla being bad it can finally return to being the best weather. Skewda is probably the scariest late game cleaner in the entire tier and can chip down checks like Fini with flip turn. Seismitoad is an incredible Mon on rain, being electric immune which is really important while also posing a surprisingly potent offensive threat. Life orb weather balls and earth powers do a fantastic job at softening up an opponents team for other rain teammates such as Skewda or shifu. Overall, rain is in a much better place than it was a few months ago and I would like to see a rise.

B -> B+ at least: yeah I have no clue why this Mon dropped. It still destroys bulky offense and fat which are two of the best play styles right now. With blissey and Slowking both being somewhat niche, Nidoking can now finally become checkless once again. Also dominates popular defensive cores and can find holes on mons such as koko and clef to come in and reek havoc.

A -> A-: yeah I understand that Lando does get chipped throughout a match, but a well player Lando can shut this Mon down forever. Bulk up has taken over the boots pivot set as the best option for this Mon, and it has breathed new life into it. However, I still this Mon is prone to chip, getting whittled down by rocky helmet damage fairly quickly. Every time it comes in it has to choose whether it want to actually swing and take around 35 percent of its health because ferro switched in or if it wants to read a switch and double out. Overall it’s hard to fit on teams and it’s usage is quite low compared to other Ou mons. I think a one tier drop is fine.

C+ -> higher: idk if this is a hot take, but I like this Mon a lot in the current metagame. Bulletproof makes it so it can absorb shadow balls, which is always a huge plus, but it’s defensive typing helps against a lot of the best mons in the tier, such as kartana Heatran barraskewda Blacephalon and a lot more. Furthermore, it’s an excellent stealth rock setter, and can pressure foggers such as corv and torn with moves like toxic and flamethrower respectively. Offensive sets also aren’t terrible, with pretty much the only consistent check to clangorous soul kommo being Unaware clef.

Thanks for reading! I hope y’all have a nice day!

oh and yes I understand that I have six mons in the S Tier but like, they are all above every other Mon in the tier so idk about that

 

[ProNooob]

to B- | Mfer is borderline useless in this metagame. It loses to basically every hazard setter and gets permawalled by every physical wall in the tier such as corviknight, slowbro, zapdos, buzzwole and even stuff like lando-t and physically defensive ferrothorn without an incredible amount of chip damage. It lacks an ability to switch in safely versus anything not named tapu koko or clefable (the later is very shaky already), and it doesnt have the bulk to safely set up versus anything nor enough power to threaten teams that are otherwise weak to it on paper. Furthermore, its offensive checks such as rillaboom and urshifu-rs are on the rise in the meta, basically preventing it from exerting a serious offensive presence. Its sand-setting partners are also at an extremely low point in the metagame, with hippowdon on the verge of dropping to UU and Tyranitar not far behind due to how incredibly harsh the metagame is for them.

I wanted to drop this thing to C+ with its buddy dracozolt but people are probably going to be angry about that, so B- it is.

Also, hippo could drop too? I only see it on sand and stall teams, and they are both dropping in viability. I genuinely see no niche it has?

EDIT: after thinking more, it should be out right above blaziken IMO. Hippo is not the greatest but it feels wrong to put it below blaz or on the same level as bulu.

 

[remetagross]

Agreeing on Tornadus. This guy is the most obnoxious Pokémon of the tier. It never dies, it tanks tons of stuff, it is a constant pain in the butt knocking items off left and right and gaining momentum through U-Turn. The fact it is so fast means it can pretty much always use U-turn to get away from danger while triggering Regenerator and bringing in a check to whatever is before it, and it's harder to chip than it was in SM now that it's got the boots.

 

[Smashburn]

to B- | Mfer is borderline useless in this metagame. It loses to basically every hazard setter and gets permawalled by every physical wall in the tier such as corviknight, slowbro, zapdos, buzzwole and even stuff like lando-t and physically defensive ferrothorn without an incredible amount of chip damage. It lacks an ability to switch in safely versus anything not named tapu koko or clefable (the later is very shaky already), and it doesnt have the bulk to safely set up versus anything nor enough power to threaten teams that are otherwise weak to it on paper. Furthermore, its offensive checks such as rillaboom and urshifu-rs are on the rise in the meta, basically preventing it from exerting a serious offensive presence. Its sand-setting partners are also at an extremely low point in the metagame, with hippowdon on the verge of dropping to UU and Tyranitar not far behind due to how incredibly harsh the metagame is for them.

I wanted to drop this thing to C+ with its buddy dracozolt but people are probably going to be angry about that, so B- it is.

I strongly agree with that drop, although my slight nitpick is that Rillaboom isn't seeing a continued rise in usage at all. In fact, Rillaboom has been severely hurt by every recent meta trend which has put a huge dent in its viability. Therefore, it hasn't had much of- if any- a hand in Excadrill's decline. As for sentiments regarding Rillaboom rising a subrank, I would disagree because I still feel that the meta is still harsh for it despite its good qualities; more popular checks to it have only grown in variety and popularity, making a rise in its usage that much harder to justify. That said, I wouldn't advocate for a Rillaboom drop either as it still has the qualities to make itself among the better contenders of the B rank.

Moltres-Galar is a mixed bag, but simply I think it falls short of a rise to the A- sub-rank. While it has many great qualities to justify a potential rise, it falls short of those typically seen in the A- sub-rank-- those, which naturally fall short of or fluctuate in the A rank (Blacephalon, Dragonite, or Victini at the moment) or being trend specific in viability (Ninetales-A, Rotom-W, Zapdos-G, and Volcanion).

Other nominations I agree with:

A+ -> S-

A+ -> S-

A -> A-

A- -> A

B -> B+

B -> B+

A -> A-

C+ -> Above (possibly B)



​

 

[ProNooob]

Time to make two proper noms!

B -> B-
If we are dropping excadrill, why not drop it’s partner in crime, tyranitar hippowdon! I feel like hippos main niche was on sand and stall, and both archetypes are going down in viability. This even reflects in it’s usage rate which is UU levels. And for my spicy nom

B -> A-
I’m going to preface this by admitting that I have heavy bias as nido is my fav mon, but I do have my reasons. First, is it’s coverage. It has sludge wave, earth power, flamethrower, and boltbeam. This lets it carry the tools to snap any fat balance/ BO that doesnt have blissey (which it CAN tech superpower for although this doesnt help with much else) or if they can outspeed and kill. It can be a little prediction reliant at times but it still slays. This, combined with the rise of ferro BO and fatter balance teams means that IF you can bring the king in (and lets be real, a lot of too mons have uturn or vswitch) it will beat the crap out of smth. Blissey becoming less common is just benefitting it even more. Admiteddly, A- might be junping the gun as it camt run 5 moves, so it can still be walled.


I also do believe blace and torn-t do believe to go up, although there is not much to be said that has not already.

 

[Duckslikerain]

B- -> B+
It punches holes into teams and has incredible synergy with the slowtwins. This pokemon can truly dominate games with no set up and a little prediction and the proper pivot support pokemon. Its a medium risk high reward pokemon that has a solid role as an anti-bulky offense mon.

 

[Politoad]

welp, all I see is nominations for tier shifts for mons that are in the list already, so time for some fresh air with a new nomination.

everyone's favorite legendary doggo!

no, not you

ew hell no, not you either

---

good boi :)

okay on a more serious note now, this may come as quite a surprise to all of you, but I truly feel like Arcanine could use a spot on the list.

to C-

In a meta full of strong physical attackers, a Pokémon that can shut several commons ones down completely and cripple a handful of others on switch-in, can prove itself very useful. Especially with common mons such as and , it's nice to have a proper answer to them. Even though 90 / 80 / 80 doesn't seem like amazing stats for a defensive-oriented Pokemon, having one of the best abilities in the game in Intimidate really does reasonably make up for it.

I'd like to quickly summarize what you will further be seeing in this post:

- The set it uses;
- What it is useful for, including calculations;
- Team(mate)s for it;
- Relevant replays and short additional descriptions;
- Overview of its two (/three) strong drawbacks, I will also talk about these earlier in this post;
- Final conclusion;

Set

Arcanine @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 Spe
Bold / Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Teleport
- Morning Sun
- Flamethrower / (Flare Blitz)

Will-O-Wisp is absolutely the move to go for over Toxic, since it strongly stimulates Arcanine's role as a physically defensive Pokemon by halving the target's physical move power. This works especially well in combination with Intimidate, which already lowers the targets Attack stat by one stage upon switchin. The additional great thing with Arcanine is, is that with its typing, it lures in Landorus-T, Tyranitar, Urshifu-R, Dragonite, Chomp, Pex and the Slowtwins, all of which hate being hit on the switch with a burn. Especially offensive variants of the former five of this list are truly crippled by this, as it forces them to either set up several SD's to compensate (which takes several turns) or simply lose its breaking power, making them easier handled by teammates. There is Aroma / HBell ofc, but I feel like it's not really that common in the metagame except on maybe stall or BO Dnite's.

Don't necessarily feel the need to elaborate on Teleport; great pivoting move gaining momentum and allowing safe switchins for frail, offensive teammates that really can't afford to take hits, whilst Arcanine can.

Morning Sun, whilst only having 8 PP, provides Arcanine with recovery in case it needs it to stay healthy throughout the game and ensures it can properly execute its role. This is one of its two (three) major drawbacks: 8 PP isn't great, but acceptable - the fact that Morning Sun is affected by weather is heavily detrimental, which in three of the four cases means it will only heal 25% of its health by using this move in rain, sand or hail. Obviously, sun is great for it, healing 2/3 instead, but yeah let's face it, sun is the least viable of the weathers and is barely used. On the contrary, rain (teams Arcanine really doesn't do well against at all for obvious reasons) is way more used, and I see sand/hail regularly as well. Thankfully, weather spam is not as common as it was back in generation 5 (all hail the frog).

Last slot is reserved for an offensive move. I definitely prefer Flamethrower because of it not having any recoil that would harm Arcanine's ability as a physically defensive mon, in addition to hitting physically defensive Pokemon like Melmetal, Buzzwole and Tangrowth much harder. It also avoids contact on Ferro and CorvSkarms Rocky Helmet and negates Iron Defense. Flare Blitz could be used for one that likes more breaking power and also being able to hit the (nowadays less common) egg for reasonable damage.

The EVs are obv. mostly invested in Defense to maximize Arcanine's defensive capabilities (fun fact: it avoids the 2HKO from scarf Lele's psyshock), whilst the Speed EVs allow it to reach a stat of 241, outspeeding several Pokémon around the 240 mark.

Set Usability

Arcanine is a proper Pokémon for checking some of the most threatening physical attackers in the metagame. This includes cleaners such as Weavile, Kartana, and Zeraora, but it also properly deals with other physically offensive Pokémon such as Melmetal, Rillaboom, Hawlucha, the odd Scizor, and even Bisharp (even though Defiant may leave you guessing otherwise).

Most of these defensive Pokémon lack any kind of proper defensive capabilities, but Arcanine has a respectable special Attack of 100 and Attack of 110, meaning it can also get rid of several other common defensive Pokémon, including Ferrothorn (let's face it, it's also everywhere), the metal birds (Corviknight / Skarmory), Tangrowth and Buzzwole. With this attack power and its 95 Speed stat, it also manages to check Magnezone.

As listed, here will be some relevant calculations against the Pokémon it is supposed to be used against:
* note: I accidentely used a spread of 252 / 198+ whilst making the calculations. The differences are neglectable however.

Defensive:


+1 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 233-274 (60.6 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Revenge OHKO or heal to weaken the damage, turning it into a 3HKO)
-1 252 Atk Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 79-94 (20.5 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 132-156 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (65 BP) vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 88-105 (22.9 - 27.3%) -- 54.7% chance to 4HKO
+1 252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 196-232 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (around 2% chance to KO with the second hit if no heal)
-1 252+ Atk Melmetal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 152-180 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 168+ Atk Buzzwole Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 140-166 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Arcanine: 102-120 (26.6 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine in Grassy Terrain: 119-141 (30.9 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 239-282 (62.2 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Superpower over 5 turns vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 270-321 (70.3 - 83.5%) -- not a KO
-1 252 Atk Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 252 HP / 198+ Def Arcanine: 87-103 (22.6 - 26.8%) -- 33.9% chance to 4HKO

fun thing it also heavily cripples phys leftovers Pult by switching in on DD, burning it, also being able to take the second hit, heal and pivot out:

+1 252 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Arcanine: 204-242 (53.1 - 63%) -- approx. 2HKO
+1 252 Atk burned Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Arcanine: 102-120 (26.5 - 31.2%) -- approx. 4HKO

not advisable though, band and lo also beat it.

Offensive


0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 924-1092 (356.7 - 421.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (close call)
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 222-264 (79 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 40 HP / 104 SpD Melmetal: 236-282 (56 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 122-146 (27.5 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (rather weak, but it still wins)
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 212-252 (75.1 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 200-236 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Rocky Helmet is guaranteed 2HKO)
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 258-306 (77.2 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 340-408 (96.5 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 256-304 (72.7 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 152 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 320-380 (81.4 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Scizor: 420-496 (122.4 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rillaboom: 260-308 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zeraora: 118-139 (37.2 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Teams

I feel like Arcanine does well on BO teams that need a defensive answer to physical Ice/Steel/Grass types whilst also appreciating the momentum Arcanine creates to get the true attackers in properly. That being said, it does need a bit of support itself.

Defog or Spin is absolutely mandatory as your HDB will most likely be knocked off by opposing Weavile, Rillaboom and Kartana, mons you'll be willing to switch into. Arcanine is of course weak to Stealth Rock, and it really can't have 25% of its HP being lowered on switch in as it will lower the amount of Pokémon it checks. Rotom-Wash does this exceptionally well, considering it also covers Arcanine's type weaknesses in Ground and Water and can create momentum with VSwitch as well. Other Defoggers that provide momentum, such as Corviknight, can also fulfill this role well.

A specially defensive Pokémon that can switch in and take strong special attacks that Arcanine may struggle against (even though scarf Blace for example only 3HKOes - but Arcanine can't do much back), whilst also providing momentum, works excellent for it. Slowking and even Blissey are two good examples.

Replays:

Before I tilted due to my own poor plays, I was using Arcanine successfully around the 1600-1800 mark. Most of the replays are from games against similarly ranked players.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1510090848-8sfx3ttrq68ljw31ejpz7nce1k7wx1epw

In this replay Arcanine effectively burns Chomp on Scale Shot whilst they predicted me to switch because of Intimidate. Additionally, it handled phys Pult and picked off both Koko and Alolatales.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1510698285-8o1wzn98jq25tw26zy4h1usm6f3fyqopw

Here it effectively burned Shifu on switch-in, also properly handling Weavile.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1510737666-jtqf09ujy4nd90derp86ohavh26lt4gpw

Dealing with Zeraora (and Weavile, even though they forfeited) late game.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1511361549-vo2fxrwi2bzei95hpsi38tmf4ujmet1pw

Again late-game, beating Kartana and Buzzwole with a little bit help of Tangrowth. I should've been more careful not to let Arcanine get poisoned right here.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1512221030-9fp9l5wf23wvjmqkfhznbfq0cqi376dpw

Burning Lando-T on switch in, and also again late-game, dealing with Weavile, Zeraora, and defeating Corviknight.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1513322864-r5nqkl208atesnod7veu7frdtmnfig4pw

Burning Chomp, shitting on Zera, Rilla and Melm as well. Also don't judge my use of Rhydon this game, it was just for fun (maybe also why I lost many points!) :)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1515552490-xeggimvw0tnj0nf6j47wuadhn3wgd3tpw

playing around the Bisharp, late-game handling Rillaboom and Zeraora.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1516443446-0hs9fre0tixjrzng2nxm3di21dkvnfvpw

crippling / beating four mons again

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1516620258-flmng5sc06ffyl2en1jn8g0nsczepwvpw

dealing with half the team again

Drawbacks

I've shortly pointed out Arcanine's main two / three (heavy) drawbacks:

- Stealth Rock weakness, of course you have HDB but you'll be switching into mons using Knock Off (so it requires Defog (or spin)! But synergizes well with several that do this)
- Morning Sun being weather affected (I feel like this is its strongest con. Thankfully weather isn't permanent. You're going to massively enjoy the occasional sun though).
- Morning Sun's 8 PP, but in practice for me it's usually been enough.

Conclusion

I truly feel like Arcanine has reasons to be used in the OU metagame for all the reasons I listed above. Intimidate, bulk, alright offensive presence for a defensive Pokemon, speed, decent recovery, and Teleport. I hope you'll consider testing it and enjoying it yourself, as I have definitely done so.

Thanks for reading and have a wonderful day!

 

[Colin]

An inexperienced opinion from lower ladder, but I believe deserves a slight rise. C+ -> B-

Set:

Celesteela @ Power Herb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest
- Meteor Beam
- Autotomize
- Flamethrower
- Air Slash

Other than the surge of electrics and rain, the recent meta changes have been quite welcoming to this pokemon. For starters, common partners in crime Nihilego and offensive rocks balloon Heatran have all skyrocketed in viability. Balloon Heatran in particular is an excellent partner in crime because of its ability to completely stuff any other Heatran without a balloon that can't pop its balloon, as well as being a fantastic wallbreaker and stealth rock setter. As for reasons to use Celesteela, it offers a potent special cleaner with above average defensive utility for a HO, being able to abuse scarf locked Lele and Kartana in particular. It is also able to tank many moves either while setting up or if failing to get a KO courtesy of its excellent defensive typing and natural bulk. Overall, I think B- is a good spot for it as it is specific even in the landscape of HO, and has woes against certain fats and electrics, but it remains quite potent against many balance, BO, and HO builds, especially the common lando-water-steel-bird shells. I think Celesteela is one of the bigger beneficiaries of the shift to a more offensive meta, even though it is not responsible for such changes.

 

[Ctann]

Curious why Tornadus-Therian isn’t S or just under S tier.

it might not be as flexible as landorus-therian, however when it comes to useful Pokémon that work very well.. it’s literally:

tornadus-T is to Landorus-T as pepsi is to coke.

and it’s not bad being the second most multi-use Pokémon in OU.

the S Pokémon’s feature Heatran, which has little presence against rain and Weavile, which can’t put in excessive work against strong offenses. They just don’t work on as much teams, and against as much teams as tornadus-t. It’s also harder to get creative with them..

—

the other multi use (A to A+) Pokémon is slowking-G. But I guess it’s physically defensive set isn’t for everyone due to the knock off weakness and EQ weakness, however it can switch into a lot of things and threaten back. Just to refresh some memories:

slowking-galar @ black sludge
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Psychic
- Trick
- Ice beam
- Thunder wave / Flamethrower

Psychic is immediate damage STAB for Pex, zapdos-g, urshifu, buzzwole, etc. all of those cannot OHKO it.

trick is the only way you can force progress against teams stacking switch ins like heatran, Blissey, hippodown, Tyranitar, Melmetal, aegislash, etc.

thunderwave and ice beam are a nice combo to finish your setup, covering almost all of OU’s most common offensive switchins with the neat paralysis chance for Weavile/Bisharp switch ins.

sludge bomb can be subbed in if you need it to actually use an attack on fairies. Future sight and slack off are useless, as you need to be an immediate threat. EQ and scald are too weak and don’t work on enough teams, tho EQ might be okay if you really really need a way to hit heatran and opposing slowking-G with assault vests (slowking-G is the best check to itself)

you can sub in a Colb berry (or the ghost/ground berries) for black sludge, and trade trick for flamethrower. Because slowking-G makes a great offensive switch into Ferrothorn. But then it will be hard to force progress against defensive teams, so consider future sight subbed in somewhere too if you’re using a resist berry.

something like:

- future sight
- flamethrower
- thunderwave / psychic
- ice beam / sludge bomb

this set up can deal much more easily with Kartana , sometimes Weavile, rillaboom and bisharp, and definitely Ferrothorn.

Thunder wave is just overall useful with ice beam to put some work in once you force out a Pokémon.

the stabs can be subbed in, psychic is just overall a great stab on a phys def set, whilst sludge bomb is your best tool to spam against tornadus-t, hippodown, Mandibuzz, Tyranitar and zapdos, and also surprises any banded Rillaboom.

Unfortunately heatran and Tyranitar become massive problems, so you’re forced to run a top switch in for both of those, and that’s a little hard to find for a Pokémon that likes to come in and out a lot

trick also has unexpected uses in longer games against slower, bulkier teams. Such as absorbing knock offs, and gradually removing items from teammates.

—

An interesting thing about

and

Zapdos is very meta right now, so by association, SpD is becoming good again. And there’s something to be said about passive sand storm damage chipping important defensive Pokémon, like , and as well as chipping offensive Pokémon like , and into OHKO/2HKO ranges for your scarfers, speed boosters or priority users. I’d rate hippo as a really good Pokémon on a non-sand dedicated team!

unexpected benchmarks can be reached with sandstorm damage for breakers like banded or LO Kartana. It’s a very useful synergy.

 

[Moyashi]

I think TornT is S- quality, but putting it up next to LandoT is a bit harder of a sell. It does have terrific flexibility and splashability, but I'm not sure it is quite LandoT level. Not yet anyway. But it definitely is S- I think.

Anyways...

Rillaboom - B -> B-

I was pretty hesitant if I really wanted to make this nom since it does have some decent traits, but the more I think about it and the more I both play games and watch games, the more they feel like on paper traits and I feel Rilla should drop. Too many teams are prepped for it these days, even without doing it deliberately. Faster grass resists, the continued rise in presence of Ferrothorn, and the fact that it just... Doesn't do much. It requires a lot of support these days to function and quite frankly it feels outclassed as a breaker. Mono grass isn't a good offensive typing, but some grasses make up for this with useful defensive utility. And general utility. Rillaboom has very little if any. As a grass type breaker, Kartana is arguably a significantly better choice as its high speed and power mean it isn't so easily stuffed by flying types.

"But Rilla can at least knock switchins"

True... But so can Kartana. Because of the presence of so many faster resists, its ability to break is limited and is often forcing it to click other moves. Zapdos rising in usage more and more, and seeing usage of flame body Heatran means that it often risks being crippled even if it knocks them on the switch. Dragonite seeing more use lately as well is another issue for it, as is Volcarona Band sets are really bad, and SD sets, while not exactly bad, struggle without high support. If it had some useful defensive utility to speak of, maybe I would feel differently but it struggles to switch in without help. If it gets knocked, it becomes even less threatening and if burned by either scald or flame body mons, it becomes almost totally useless.

These issues, and the fact that it faces huge competition from Kartana as an offensive grass type who is much more consistent, And I would argue can fulfill all of Rilla's rolls while matching up much better against more of the metagame... and Rilla's complete lack of SPL success leaves me feeling like it should drop to B-.

 

[ausma]

A+ -> S-
Agree

I've seen Tornadus-T as an S- level threat for a while, but I believe the incredible success of its AV variant has really cemented just how much Tornadus-T can actually provide for teams, and to an extent how threatening it can be with a dedicated item slot.

Between an AV allowing it to actually check Pokemon that you wouldn't at all expect it to while still being an entire Torn, being an incredibly consistent Defog user, being capable of consistently disrupting fat and aiding Spike-stacks with Taunt, and boasting the underrated Nasty Plot that allows it to directly shred bulkier structures while maintaining godly defensive utility, there's not really a structure where Tornadus-T can't fit. It excels on fat and balance, it's great on bulky offense, and even has some very pinch applications on some dedicated offenses. Regenerator is just that good of an ability on a fast pivot, and further drives home just how splashable and consistent of a disruptive presence and naturally threatening check it is toward the a lot of the offensive metagame. Tornadus-T is really only held back by Hurricane's accuracy and 4MSS for utility sets, but given how often times these weaknesses do not really block it from consistently doing what it is out to do from an offensive utility standpoint, I believe they are justifiable to block it from S but not quite S-. While I don't often like citing tour usage, there's a reason it's steadily rose into top 5 in consistent usage, and even trumped the massively influential Weavile in usage over the past week.


B -> B+/A-
Unsure, leaning toward disagree

Most certainly not to A-, but I can see B+ considering how Nidoking is a wallbreaker that is staggeringly difficult to play around and is so easy to facilitate with Pokemon like Urshifu-R and Dragapult, and Substitute variants are great at pressuring Heatran's Air Balloon consistently. Though, it certainly has some really bad caveats that block it from being super consistent and thus leave me skeptical toward the notion of a rise. Being a Ground-type that is wholly contained by any Pokemon's Knock Off and lacking any kind of defensive utility against any Pokemon not named Tapu Koko is difficult, and its reliance on Substitute to mitigate prediction really hurts considering it really wants all 4 of its moveslots for coverage. The uptick in AV Tornadus-T and Air Balloon Heatran being able to threaten it if it gets in safely with a Substitute down sucks a lot for it, on top of that. It is immensely potent when it secures the right matchup and is on a team capable of facilitating wallbreaking opportunities, but in a metagame where having defensive utility on even your offensive Pokemon is so important and given that Knock Off is just that much of a debilitating move for it, it's difficult for me to entirely subscribe to this nomination. Though, I'm not entirely sold on if it should stay in B either, so I'll be experimenting with it some more.


Rising in some way
Agree

This nomination is more to address Rain as a whole, and these three Pokemon have viability strictly attached to the archetype. However, I'd like to mostly talk about Seismitoad + Volcanion rain, which is at an all time high with Kyurem no longer around to both pivot into and threaten either of these Pokemon. While checking Rain is easy on paper, Seismitoad and Volcanion are so good at consistently blowing holes into Rain checks (and, frankly, everything) to where eventually losing to Barraskewda can be a neigh inevitability in some matchups, even when packing these checks. Both of these Pokemon hate Blissey, but I've been a gigantic fan of Focus Punch Seismitoad as an option to both snipe Blissey and more critically pressure Ferrothorn, and Volcanion can potentially overwhelm Blissey anyway especially with Ferrothorn hazard support which really goes to show just how capable current Rain structures are at overwhelming standard Rain checks. Thus, this really only leaves Gastrodon as the only consistent check to Rain in a vacuum, which gets pressured hard by hazard stacking and your choice of offensive Tornadus-T or Zapdos anyway. Rain also packs some terrifying, albeit less common, options in Urshifu-R and Crawdaunt, too, so even Gastrodon isn't a guaranteed failsafe. By no means do I feel Rain is broken, of course. Outlasting rain with your checks and then using the forced Pelipper switch to position your team to deal critical damage against its key breakers, on top of things like hazards and Life Orb chip, make it very manageable with the right mentality and options, but to underestimate it is a grave mistake and I fully support a rise.

 

[Ruparajan]

I strongly agree with that drop, although my slight nitpick is that Rillaboom isn't seeing a continued rise in usage at all. In fact, Rillaboom has been severely hurt by every recent meta trend which has put a huge dent in its viability. Therefore, it hasn't had much of- if any- a hand in Excadrill's decline. As for sentiments regarding Rillaboom rising a subrank, I would disagree because I still feel that the meta is still harsh for it despite its good qualities; more popular checks to it have only grown in variety and popularity, making a rise in its usage that much harder to justify. That said, I wouldn't advocate for a Rillaboom drop either as it still has the qualities to make itself among the better contenders of the B rank.

Moltres-Galar is a mixed bag, but simply I think it falls short of a rise to the A- sub-rank. While it has many great qualities to justify a potential rise, it falls short of those typically seen in the A- sub-rank-- those, which naturally fall short of or fluctuate in the A rank (Blacephalon, Dragonite, or Victini at the moment) or being trend specific in viability (Ninetales-A, Rotom-W, Zapdos-G, and Volcanion).

Other nominations I agree with:

A+ -> S-

A+ -> S-

A -> A-

A- -> A

B -> B+

B -> B+

A -> A-

C+ -> Above (possibly B)



​

Can I know why you are opposing a rillaboom rise? I feel it is good with specially defensive lando rising, corv dropping, and skarm not even being ou.

 

[Snowy]

Raise swole bug, shit is sitting at a 70%+ win rate in spl and it's not surprising given how well it reliably answer's some of the tiers biggest threats right now. Not only this, but it straight up just claps a lot of the team comps going around at the moment with its three attacks.

Drop victini, I can't remember the last time I saw this Mon win, p sure it's sat at a sub 40% winrate for the last few major tours (it's at like 25% in spl kek). It's not hard to see why this thing struggles to do much, with none of the top tier mons beside lele (which is still taking a decent chunk out of it) giving it free switch ins. There's also the fact that heatrans on every other team and majority of the top offensive threats are faster and clap it.

Agree with torn and rain goons going up, Nido is better than everything in B bar rain goons and slowking (which I think could get a raise) so it could probably go up, but I'm fairly indifferent.

 

[Drahe]

Can I know why you are opposing a rillaboom rise? I feel it is good with specially defensive lando rising, corv dropping, and skarm not even being ou.

I'm also oposite to boom rise in viability in actual meta.

Hard to have a set that can cover offensively all rising defensive answers as without loosing some "important" moves.

Being knocked really dent its power with loosing except if SD wich is 1 more move that let only 3 offensive ones
Also it's sometime difficult to bring rillaboom in the field : u-turn users make good damages on it, scald, fire coverage, share ice weakness with other common pick...

Offensively make a better job as breaker/sweeper and as breaker/revenge killer wich are jobs rillaboom pretend to do : less effectively.
Defensively, to check some stuff with a grass : do a better job, or even can find better niche roles (water wall) +neutral on uturn

To end about boom, a lot of player don't like to have grassy terrain while using earthquake users as & wich can be discussed but surely have opposite opinions that affect collective viability ranking.

 

[SLDR]

Can I know why you are opposing a rillaboom rise? I feel it is good with specially defensive lando rising, corv dropping, and skarm not even being ou.

Tornadus-T and Zapdos are thriving at the moment and these two are arguably more difficult to face for Rillaboom than the two metal birds, especially Zapdos. With the uptick of Choice Band Weavile and physical offense in general, many physical sponges have been used more (see Buzzwole in the last two weeks of SPL) and already used mons like Ferrothorn have started to run physically defensive spreads and even Rocky Helmet. Kartana is by far the premier offensive Grass in the tier and it even has more defensive utility than Rillaboom (+1 Nihilego, Toxic immunity, much better form of speed control) and, if you're trying to build a Grass spam team you are going to get better results with Tapu Bulu, which has actual defensive presence, a secondary Fairy typing and a wider movepool to pave the way for Kartana.
Rain is one of its supposed good matchups, but any good Rain teams has both Zapdos and Ferrothorn which are going to be a nightmare to face, especially when you factor in Rillaboom's weakness to Ferrothorn's hazards stack and its overall inability to manually switch into the Rain threats it has to threaten.
Another big factor is Rillaboom's almost non-existent defensive utility, courtesy of its mono-Grass typing and usually uninvested bulk not being very usable in the current metagame. If a Pokémon struggling to make an offensive impact has also trouble on the defensive side, it ends up not being at the forefront of the metagame. The worst part is, however, that you naturally tend to build teams equipped to handle Rillaboom even without consciously taking it into account. Underestimating Rillaboom in the builder is technically impossible because you need to take Kartana into account and, since Kartana is just better, usually what handles Kartana is more than enough for Rillaboom.
All of these changes are definitely hurting Rillaboom's viability, despite its old nemesis being also on a bad trend.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

Raise swole bug, shit is sitting at a 70%+ win rate in spl and it's not surprising given how well it reliably answer's some of the tiers biggest threats right now. Not only this, but it straight up just claps a lot of the team comps going around at the moment with its three attacks.

Drop victini, I can't remember the last time I saw this Mon win, p sure it's sat at a sub 40% winrate for the last few major tours (it's at like 25% in spl kek). It's not hard to see why this thing struggles to do much, with none of the top tier mons beside lele (which is still taking a decent chunk out of it) giving it free switch ins. There's also the fact that heatrans on every other team and majority of the top offensive threats are faster and clap it.

Agree with torn and rain goons going up, Nido is better than everything in B bar rain goons and slowking (which I think could get a raise) so it could probably go up, but I'm fairly indifferent.

yall really have to stop this anecdotal short sighted incredibly ridiculous logic in your posts man. in literally in any other context this wouldnt fly, especially on tours. just because you didnt see it win or it was used on teams that did win nor lose is not logic of that individual mon being good or bad. This a team and coach thing. It's crazy if you apply this to anything irl (it's also crazy here but yall have convinced yourselves otherwise out of groupthink). Now as an alternative, can you explain what those mons did in the majority of those games, what sets, what value they provided, and if they were used to their best (or just a small analysis of their games) ? you dont have to go that far but saying that player mon x is bad because it just happend to be on squads that didnt perform as well is incredibly reductive, especially with the massive amounts of variables in play here. Similar on the opposite side (buzzwole in this case), but youre far less likely to get a false negative. and even then, that argument is weak on its own