Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

[Thunder Pwoell]

My brain hurts reading this.

Can I genuinely ask what traits does this Pokémon lack and or what trends exist in OU right now that demands the C+ viability ranking?

Yessir. In my not humble opinion, I've had many issues with this mon from the beginning. It seemingly is super powerful but it is so lackluster art doing its job as a breaker and/or sweeper most of the time unless you are running mono fat. Its attacks are not that strong either unless you're at +2 and even then it's meh and still frail at that. I think it's a child/newbie/callous trap because of how its seemingly sky-high attack stat. However, this attack stat by itself ignores 2 other main variables of the attack damage equation: move base power & ability.

For example here are some calcs:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Grassy Glide: 121.1 - 142.8%
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade: 143.9 - 169.5%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Wood Hammer: 207 - 243.9%

resisted hit v. coverage
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Wood Hammer: 68.5 - 80.8%
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword: 63.5 - 74.9

super effective
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP: 103.8 - 122.8%
252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Phantom Force: 105.8 - 125.8% ( worth noting that dragpault has almost half of the attack stat as kartana)
(reminder that these are just benchmarks showing raw damage output OctoMystic HydreigonTheChild )

This is just a small anecdote but I show these to bring up some important distinctions, its relatively low base power moves and no boosting ability are lacking. This shows a small distinction ( I’m just using rilla and dragapult here as benchmarks, I’m aware there are others but the important thing is that many other mons hit higher attacking stats than this despite not having close to the same base attack because of abilities and movesets. And these mons are faster, a lot less frail than kartana, and have far better moves than it.

Is kartana weak? Yes if you are scarf but that is not what I am saying. Vs fat, which seems to be your (your being plural here not specifically you since you didnt mention this) kartana can do amazign things but so can other breakers. Kartana is pretty easily taken out specially , and faster mons do not need to be that strong or even unsually strong to kill it at all on the physical side :

+1 252 Atk Mew Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 260-306 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 259-305 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 328-388 (126.6 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 141-166 (54.4 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

On the special side we know it dies, onto the next. Now you also asked especially C+. The mons in C+ are not bad whatsoever once you get over the rating of it even though this is all subjective. Kartana actually fits in very well with them, although I also think MANY of them are far too low in the first place.
Happy Tuesday

 

[Obsidian297]

Damage isn't everything

What makes Kartana good is how that damage in conjunction with its movepool, which isn't the largest, but has enough to make Kartana hard to switch into, with Leaf Blade, Knock Off, Smart Strike, Sacred Sword, Psycho Cut, Defog, Synthesis and Swords Dance

Leaf Blade is quite powerful by itself, dealing slightly more damage than Grassy Glide Rillaboom, which is already hard to switch into.

Like Rilla, Kartana gets Knock Off, which makes Kartana punish Corvi, Skarm and other switch ins by removing their boots or lefties. This wears these mons down quite fast, which in conjunction with other forms of pressure can make them faint quite quickly.

There are a few mons that resist the combo of Grass and Dark, the viable ones being Gapdos, Goltres, Blaziken, Geezing, Hydreigon, Bulu and Zarude, which are hit by a common coverage move of Kartana, Sacred Sword removes Hydreigon, Zarude and Goltres, Smart Strike removes Geezing and Bulu, and the very rare Psycho Cut removes Blaziken and Gapdos, neither or which can withstand Kartana to begin with.

There are 3 viable Kartana sets, CB, CS and LO, CB is a relentless wallbreaker, CS is an amazing cleaner and if the conditions are right, LO can win the game if it gets an SD.

Plus, no one uses Kartana for its bulk. It can take a stray Knock Off or U-turn or even Stone Edge quite well if it has to, but it's not required to.

I heard no one say that as Cinderace is frail, it isn't OP. I feel it's a disingenuous argument, (especially +1 Mew, why would you stay on a potential Knock off, plus, how does Mew reach +1? Does it even use CC at high levels?)

Kartana deals damage, and it deals good damage and it's fast enough to deal that good damage. It has utility, between its typing and Knock Off, and with Beast Boost, it can easily be game over.

I'd like to hear your counterpoints, though if you simply don't like Kartana, that's fine, but don't ignore its strengths.

I'm not saying it's perfect, I'm just saying that Kartana has a lot of strengths.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Yessir. In my not humble opinion, I've had many issues with this mon from the beginning. It seemingly is super powerful but it is so lackluster art doing its job as a breaker and/or sweeper most of the time unless you are running mono fat. Its attacks are not that strong either unless you're at +2 and even then it's meh and still frail at that. I think it's a child/newbie/callous trap because of how its seemingly sky-high attack stat. However, this attack stat by itself ignores 2 other main variables of the attack damage equation: move base power & ability.

For example here are some calcs:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Grassy Glide: 121.1 - 142.8%
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade: 143.9 - 169.5%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Wood Hammer: 207 - 243.9%
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Wood Hammer: 68.5 - 80.8%
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword: 63.5 - 74.9
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP: 103.8 - 122.8%
252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Phantom Force: 105.8 - 125.8% ( worth noting that dragpault has almost half of the attack stat as kartana)

This is just a small anecdote but I show these to bring up some important distinctions, its relatively low base power moves and no boosting ability are lacking. This shows a small distinction ( I’m just using rilla and dragapult here as benchmarks, I’m aware there are others but the important thing is that many other mons hit higher attacking stats than this despite not having close to the same base attack because of abilities and movesets. And these mons are faster, a lot less frail than kartana, and have far better moves than it.

Is kartana weak? Yes if you are scarf but that is not what I am saying. Vs fat, which seems to be your (your being plural here not specifically you since you didnt mention this) kartana can do amazign things but so can other breakers. Kartana is pretty easily taken out specially , and faster mons do not need to be that strong or even unsually strong to kill it at all on the physical side :

+1 252 Atk Mew Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 260-306 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 259-305 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 328-388 (126.6 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 141-166 (54.4 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

On the special side we know it dies, onto the next. Now you also asked especially C+. The mons in C+ are not bad whatsoever once you get over the rating of it even though this is all subjective. Kartana actually fits in very well with them, although I also think MANY of them are far too low in the first place.
Happy Tuesday

Kartana is in no form weak. 181 base attack boosted by life orb is insane. Also WHAT ARE YOU CALCING AGAINST. If you call kartana weak then we can look at pretty much the entire meta and say lando-t is weak because it dosent ohko every pokemon in the tier, or rillaboom who dosent ohko corviknight is weak, your arguments are bad. WORTH noting as well that dragapult does 20% less damage than kartana, and that can be the difference from OHKO'ing a mon and 2hko'ing.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 430-508 (109.1 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Phantom Force vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 317-374 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is such a huge different you are comparing, these are not even good calcs, you are comparing 2 different pokemon as well.


-1 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 144-172 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Almost 2hko'ing defensive landorus with just a stab through intimidate which we all know, landorus-t is gonna switch in once, then the next time it comes in it is unable to check kartana. Rillaboom is slower, only having grassy slide as a form of pressure against faster mons, and it is very prediction reliant with CB, While life orb wears it down in conjunction with wood hammer recoil. Kartana has a great movepool of moves to choose from as well, leaf blade, knock, sacred sword, smart strike, synthises, swords dance, defog. Leaf blade and knock hit the entire meta and even if it dosent, getting rid of an item helps kartana sweep late game due to softening the team up by removing its scarf, boots, leftovers to make them easier to take advantage off. Kartana's moves arent weak either, base 97.5 Knock off before their item has been removed, 135 BP with stab lead blade, 105 smart strike with stab, sacred sword destroying most steel types at neatral and nuking almost all of them at +2. Kartana also has 109 speed which outspeeds base 105's, garchomp, blacephalon, and base 100's. While rillaboom sits at a speed tier of 85 and relying on grassy slide to cover it. Kartana of all mons in C+/B-, you are high asf, this is unreasonable and if your team does not have the proper counter measures to counter kart because of it removing items, hazards, and support from their teammates you are gonna fall to it, kartana is not frail by any means, it can tank a physical hit once or twice, and a weak super effective hit such as melmetals Double Iron bash, or an eq from it, swamperts eq, weavile's knock off even. Kartana is not meant to be switching into strong attacks, its supposed to be brought in onto a weak attack or a free switch in via teleport or aggressive double switches and cause havoc via SD, item removal, or just the snowballing ability of beast boost. Your arguments are nothing, and you are just putting out a worst case scenario for a pokemon that is very good.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Brain hurt reading this.

Can I genuinely ask what traits does this Pokémon lack and or what trends exist in OU right now that demands the C+ viability ranking?

Some people just don't use x mon, and think x mon should go down because they cant use them properly or have a counter team towards it and dont see its true potential, its like shoving dracovish into a metagame full of very fast electric types, fairies, and water immunities

 

[YeetYolk07]

Yessir. In my not humble opinion, I've had many issues with this mon from the beginning. It seemingly is super powerful but it is so lackluster art doing its job as a breaker and/or sweeper most of the time unless you are running mono fat. Its attacks are not that strong either unless you're at +2 and even then it's meh and still frail at that. I think it's a child/newbie/callous trap because of how its seemingly sky-high attack stat. However, this attack stat by itself ignores 2 other main variables of the attack damage equation: move base power & ability.

For example here are some calcs:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Grassy Glide: 121.1 - 142.8%
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade: 143.9 - 169.5%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Wood Hammer: 207 - 243.9%
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Wood Hammer: 68.5 - 80.8%
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword: 63.5 - 74.9
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP: 103.8 - 122.8%
252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Phantom Force: 105.8 - 125.8% ( worth noting that dragpault has almost half of the attack stat as kartana)

This is just a small anecdote but I show these to bring up some important distinctions, its relatively low base power moves and no boosting ability are lacking. This shows a small distinction ( I’m just using rilla and dragapult here as benchmarks, I’m aware there are others but the important thing is that many other mons hit higher attacking stats than this despite not having close to the same base attack because of abilities and movesets. And these mons are faster, a lot less frail than kartana, and have far better moves than it.

Is kartana weak? Yes if you are scarf but that is not what I am saying. Vs fat, which seems to be your (your being plural here not specifically you since you didnt mention this) kartana can do amazign things but so can other breakers. Kartana is pretty easily taken out specially , and faster mons do not need to be that strong or even unsually strong to kill it at all on the physical side :

+1 252 Atk Mew Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 260-306 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 259-305 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 328-388 (126.6 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 141-166 (54.4 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

On the special side we know it dies, onto the next. Now you also asked especially C+. The mons in C+ are not bad whatsoever once you get over the rating of it even though this is all subjective. Kartana actually fits in very well with them, although I also think MANY of them are far too low in the first place.
Happy Tuesday

Just a quick question what do you mean by no boosting ability? Not challenging just a bit confused.

 

[pulsar512b]

Just a quick question what do you mean by no boosting ability? Not challenging just a bit confused.

They mean no grassy terrain (boosting grass moves) or abilities like adaptability or huge power. But, why would a 181 atk mon need that :p

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

Just a quick question what do you mean by no boosting ability? Not challenging just a bit confused.

sheer force/adaptability/technician/terrain/etc

There are a few mons that resist the combo of Grass and Dark, the viable ones being Gapdos, Goltres, Blaziken, Geezing, Hydreigon, Bulu and Zarude, which are hit by a common coverage move of Kartana, Sacred Sword removes Hydreigon, Zarude and Goltres, Smart Strike removes Geezing and Bulu, and the very rare Psycho Cut removes Blaziken and Gapdos, neither or which can withstand Kartana to begin with.

you're forgetting mandibuzz which it cant do anything to and is super common.

CS is an amazing cleaner and if the conditions are right, LO can win the game if it gets an SD.

This is where I think our core disagreement is. Besides the mandibuzz thing, I think we disagree on the usefulness of CS and its ability to even get that +2. late game, if it gets a +2 and nothing is faster than it, it can and will absolutely steam roll your squad. however, that is true for a lot of plethora of mons. CS viability is pretty questionable except in very specific circumstances that even you alluded to. I actually like banded though.

heard no one say that as Cinderace is frail, it isn't OP. I feel it's a disingenuous argument, (especially +1 Mew, why would you stay on a potential Knock off, plus, how does Mew reach +1? Does it even use CC at high levels?)

cinderace is faster and stronger (damage wise) with an incredible ability and movepool. it also has more bulk and isnt as frail as kartana tbh. as far as the mew and the other calcs, this was just a baseline since mew is non stab base 100, showing what the benchmark is.

Kartana deals damage, and it deals good damage and it's fast enough to deal that good damage. It has utility, between its typing and Knock Off, and with Beast Boost, it can easily be game over.

I'd like to hear your counterpoints, though if you simply don't like Kartana, that's fine, but don't ignore its strengths.

I'm not saying it's perfect, I'm just saying that Kartana has a lot of strengths.

I like your post's layout and leading to this. I actually agree with this statement however I think theres just a fundamental disagreement on how impactful those strengths actually are. And yes if it's not clear lol I "simply do not like Kartana."

 

[OctoMystic]

Yessir. In my not humble opinion, I've had many issues with this mon from the beginning. It seemingly is super powerful but it is so lackluster art doing its job as a breaker and/or sweeper most of the time unless you are running mono fat. Its attacks are not that strong either unless you're at +2 and even then it's meh and still frail at that. I think it's a child/newbie/callous trap because of how its seemingly sky-high attack stat. However, this attack stat by itself ignores 2 other main variables of the attack damage equation: move base power & ability.

For example here are some calcs:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Grassy Glide: 121.1 - 142.8%
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade: 143.9 - 169.5%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Wood Hammer: 207 - 243.9%
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Wood Hammer: 68.5 - 80.8%
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword: 63.5 - 74.9
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP: 103.8 - 122.8%
252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Phantom Force: 105.8 - 125.8% ( worth noting that dragpault has almost half of the attack stat as kartana)

This is just a small anecdote but I show these to bring up some important distinctions, its relatively low base power moves and no boosting ability are lacking. This shows a small distinction ( I’m just using rilla and dragapult here as benchmarks, I’m aware there are others but the important thing is that many other mons hit higher attacking stats than this despite not having close to the same base attack because of abilities and movesets. And these mons are faster, a lot less frail than kartana, and have far better moves than it.

Is kartana weak? Yes if you are scarf but that is not what I am saying. Vs fat, which seems to be your (your being plural here not specifically you since you didnt mention this) kartana can do amazign things but so can other breakers. Kartana is pretty easily taken out specially , and faster mons do not need to be that strong or even unsually strong to kill it at all on the physical side :

+1 252 Atk Mew Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 260-306 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 259-305 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 328-388 (126.6 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 141-166 (54.4 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

On the special side we know it dies, onto the next. Now you also asked especially C+. The mons in C+ are not bad whatsoever once you get over the rating of it even though this is all subjective. Kartana actually fits in very well with them, although I also think MANY of them are far too low in the first place.
Happy Tuesday

Sorry but what are these calcs for, also how is the Pokemon with the highest attack in the game weak? Where are you getting that mew +1 from? id like to remind you with the other calcs that You’re using examples that are dealt with by usual partners to kart, namely rillaboom and magnezone.

 

[pulsar512b]

you're forgetting mandibuzz which it cant do anything to and is super common.

a mon with a common counter is not bad because of that, and it doesnt even do a great job of beating it
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mandibuzz: 181-214 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO - any chip adn it cant swap in

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mandibuzz: 269-317 (63.5 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
still cant swap in (to a already +2 kart)

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Smart Strike vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mandibuzz: 313-370 (73.9 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
smart strike chonks it even more

 

[Obsidian297]

you're forgetting mandibuzz which it cant do anything to and is super common.

Yeah, thanks, I legitimately forgot about Mandi. However, she's quite passive and Smart Strike actually does quite a lot to Mandi as pulsar512b shows.

the usefulness of CS and its ability to even get that +2. late game, if it gets a +2 and nothing is faster than it, it can and will absolutely steam roll your squad. however, that is true for a lot of plethora of mons. CS viability is pretty questionable except in very specific circumstances that even you alluded to.

I'm not a CS fan either, and I don't like how unreliable it can be. You do need quite a bit of matchup luck and a lot of support for CS to work, but once that happens, ooh boi.

it also has more bulk and isnt as frail as kartana tbh

I disagree. Cinderace has a SR weakness rather than a resistance, so it's often forced to run HDB, and if it doesn't, its longevity is compromised heavily. Running HDB means your power is compromised, and unlike Kartana, who can boost while Choice Locked, Cinderace can boost while running Bulk Up, which isn't that strong as compared to other sets, so you give up even more power.

Cinderace also lives and dies by the accuracy of its moves, literally in HJK's situation. Kartana has all of its moves above or at 100% accuracy, which is a massive distinction.

Most importantly, Cinderace has U-Turn, which allows it to pivot in and out and become a lot more threatening.

This isn't denying Cinderace's strengths, it did get quick banned twice after all.

as far as the mew and the other calcs, this was just a baseline since mew is non stab base 100, showing what the benchmark is.

Ahh, that makes sense, though to better illustrate your point, using other physical mons would've been better, like SD Chomp or even Azu.

I like your post's layout and leading to this. I actually agree with this statement however I think theres just a fundamental disagreement on how impactful those strengths actually are. And yes if it's not clear lol I "simply do not like Kartana."

Thanks dude! I'm not the biggest Kartana fan either, but it's really strong as seen from my post and many others, and definitely more viable than C+.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Besides being able to revenge kill +1 Blacepeon, what are some other notable threats that the Scarf Jolly set outruns? If that's pretty much it, I don't really see the justification of using it over Adamant since the difference in power is around that of a Kartana holding a Muscle Band

 

[death dreigon]

a mon with a common counter is not bad because of that, and it doesnt even do a great job of beating it
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mandibuzz: 181-214 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO - any chip adn it cant swap in

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mandibuzz: 269-317 (63.5 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
still cant swap in (to a already +2 kart)

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Smart Strike vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mandibuzz: 313-370 (73.9 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
smart strike chonks it even more

Adding on to "mandi as a kartana switch in", kartana also runs swords dance commonly and it is legit good w protective pads as u even setup on pex and ferro,2 common walls for kartana

 

[658Greninja]

Yessir. In my not humble opinion, I've had many issues with this mon from the beginning. It seemingly is super powerful but it is so lackluster art doing its job as a breaker and/or sweeper most of the time unless you are running mono fat. Its attacks are not that strong either unless you're at +2 and even then it's meh and still frail at that. I think it's a child/newbie/callous trap because of how its seemingly sky-high attack stat. However, this attack stat by itself ignores 2 other main variables of the attack damage equation: move base power & ability.

For example here are some calcs:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Grassy Glide: 121.1 - 142.8%
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade: 143.9 - 169.5%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Wood Hammer: 207 - 243.9%
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Wood Hammer: 68.5 - 80.8%
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword: 63.5 - 74.9
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP: 103.8 - 122.8%
252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Phantom Force: 105.8 - 125.8% ( worth noting that dragpault has almost half of the attack stat as kartana)

This is just a small anecdote but I show these to bring up some important distinctions, its relatively low base power moves and no boosting ability are lacking. This shows a small distinction ( I’m just using rilla and dragapult here as benchmarks, I’m aware there are others but the important thing is that many other mons hit higher attacking stats than this despite not having close to the same base attack because of abilities and movesets. And these mons are faster, a lot less frail than kartana, and have far better moves than it.

Is kartana weak? Yes if you are scarf but that is not what I am saying. Vs fat, which seems to be your (your being plural here not specifically you since you didnt mention this) kartana can do amazign things but so can other breakers. Kartana is pretty easily taken out specially , and faster mons do not need to be that strong or even unsually strong to kill it at all on the physical side :

+1 252 Atk Mew Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 260-306 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 259-305 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 328-388 (126.6 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 141-166 (54.4 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

On the special side we know it dies, onto the next. Now you also asked especially C+. The mons in C+ are not bad whatsoever once you get over the rating of it even though this is all subjective. Kartana actually fits in very well with them, although I also think MANY of them are far too low in the first place.
Happy Tuesday

Kart can do it’s job regardless if the opponent has a Mandi or a Torn. Knock Off is so good for utility, but give it to a mon with 181 Atk and one that has most of it’s checks being mons that hate losing their items, and it’s OD. Even if Kart doesn’t outright break something in half it’s almost always going to force progress due to how busted Knock is. Even if it’s something as minuscule as taking away Tang’s Rocky Helmet, it allows you to pivot around Tang without worrying about chip damage. The reason why Kart’s mu vs Balance, Voltturn, and BO is so valuable is cause these three playstyle are the most common styles you’ll see on high ladder or tournament (More specifically tournament) and the fact that it’s a breaker that doesn’t mind coming in on non-BP Ferro, one of the most awkward mons to switch into safely, is also highly valuable. Also by calling Kart a noob trap, you indirectly just called great players who used Kart with success in tournaments like Leo, Luthier, and Storm Zone noobs.

Rillaboom hits harder than Kart but your forgetting some attributes that Kart has over Rilla.

-Kart takes less from rocks

-Kart outspeeds some of Rilla checks like Kyurem, Hydreigon, Zapdos, Offensive Tran, and Lele. Most of these mons are rising in usage due to the Ace/Mag ban. It’s helpful to know that Kart can murk three of these mons with Sacred Sword, and kill a crippled Zapdos with a LO boosted +2 Knock Off.

-Rillaboom hates losing it’s Band while Kart doesn’t mind losing LO too much which makes the mu vs Ferro much more in Kart’s favor.

For the calcs with +2 Leaf Blade vs Pult’s LO boosted Phantom Force, you used Mew. No shit Phantom Force is gonna look stronger. Test these calcs again but on Koko, and you get this.

252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 282-333 (100.3 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Dragapult Phantom Force vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 208-246 (74 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 563-663 (200.3 - 235.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Kart has less competition with the metas physical breakers due to how distinct it’s niche is compared to other breakers. Like there’s no way SD Chomp is gonna break past Slowbro without a lucky crit or chip.

Also no one argued that Kart’s physical bulk was fantastic, but for an offensive mon it’s really good to have, especially when you take into account it has the best defensive typing in the game. It’s not Slowbro levels of physically bulky, but it can take one or two strong physical attacks which like I said is great on a breaker. The calcs you brought out are mostly from mons that are either declining in usage, irrelevant in OU, or SD Lando.

DD Mew is outclassed by more consistent sweepers like Scale Shot Chomp and it’s better to utilize it’s ability to setup hazards than to attempt a budget Dragonite.

SpD Swords Dance Scizor is def a solid mon in the OU meta but Scizor LO SD Scizor is very rare and they don’t run U-Turn cause Superpower and Knock are much more valuable.

Barra has been declining in usage and viability cause everyone and their mother runs a good water resist and the fact that rain isn’t doing too well rn hurts it alot.

Who cares about being 2HKOd by offensive Lando when you threaten it out with LO Leaf Blade anywaya. Which let’s you force progress by simply clicking Knock as Lando is forced out.

252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 266-316 (83.3 - 99%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Be honest. You may think Kart doesn’t deserve to rise to A tier and thats fine, but there’s no way you really think it’s worse than Buzzwole and on the same league as Toge.

The stuff regarding Mandi is valid but remember that Mandi absolutely hates losing Boots. Then consider the fact that Mandi has to check a whole bunch of other shit, most of which are common teammates of Kart like Lando, Pult, and Rilla which can just U-Turn on it then go into something that forces Mandi out. Then when Kart comes back and gets up a Swords Dance. This is what happens.

96 Atk Dragapult U-turn vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mandibuzz: 53-63 (12.5 - 14.8%) -- guaranteed 6HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mandibuzz: 269-317 (63.5 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Finchinator]

While I respect the thoughts of Thunder Pwoell, Kartana has received 21 votes for A or A- and 1 vote for B+ since the release of DLC2. I believe the useful life of this conversation has expired and we should move on to discussing other Pokemon rather than moving Kartana down to C+.

 

[glava222]

from what I have seen, I personally think melmetal will come back to the A ranks soon. It really appreciates slowking taking up some of slowbro's space, as it can maul slowking even with resisted hits, because lets face it, slowking is the physically frailest viable bulky water. It definitely also likes there being less toxapex to resist its STAB. If banded sets get in safely and their metal bird is sufficiently hurt(or they dont run it), there are a lot of team comps that basically just have to sack a mon. The biggest reason that it dropped in the first place IMO was that it was just walled by most of the meta physically defensive mons in the cinderace/mage meta. I absolutely agree that it deserved the B+ drop it got because the meta was very unfavorable to it when the VR update dropped, but I see it being A- rn, and maybe getting to A later on if the meta suits it. Probably won't reclaim it's A+ status tho

 

[NotInMyChristianServer]

Let's not forget one little detail about Kartana: it's bulk. It can switch into or take hits from Ground-types, Rillaboom, Non-Close Combat Zeraora, and even something as strong as Life Orb-boosted Crawdawnt (Knock Off is barely a 2HKO with rocks, and Synthesis allows Kart to keep itself healthy). Scarf Kartana is one of the few mons able to revenge kill Scale Shot Garchomp at +1, and if provided with Grassy Terrain support it can stay onto +2 Earthquake after taking a boosted Scale Shot (Rillaboom gets continuously chipped down, so it's not unlikely that it gets into unboosted Scale Shot's range). Scarf also can forgo Sacred Sword in favor of Synthesis to make the most of it's defensive capabilities in a similar way of how Specs Tapu Koko can use Roost.
If anything, Kartana fits at home on Rillaboom BO teams looking for a secondary Grass-type to keep Rillaboom as healthy as possible; Synthesis is a big part of why, as Rillaboom sometimes isn't enough to cover the phletora of Grounds such as SD Garchomp and other attackers it is tasked to switch into as a Grass-type.

 

[Gothh]

I’m surprised that Moltres is in B. It checks a lot of the meta game and threatens burns on Offensive Pokémon like Kart, Melmetal and Rillaboom. I understand that Zapdos is used more for typing and offense and Moltres usually always plays the role as a defogger but I personally think it should at least be A-.

 

[YeetYolk07]

I’m surprised that Moltres is in B. It checks a lot of the meta game and threatens burns on Offensive Pokémon like Kart, Melmetal and Rillaboom. I understand that Zapdos is used more for typing and offense and Moltres usually always plays the role as a defogger but I personally think it should at least be A-.

The issue with it is that once it gets knocked, it's pretty much useless. With a lot of the stuff it checks carrying knock, it has a hard time.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Also moltres hates being toxic'ed and as mentioned, knocked. It just dosent do it as well anymore as a defensive check that is 4x weak to rocks.

 

[Fusion Flare]

Moltres was good back when Bug type Pokémon ruled the tier like the bubonic plague, and when those got banned, it uh... dropped off the tier like a wingless bird in the sky. Sadly it simply can’t punish the intimidating insects such as Pheromosa, Genesect, and Cinderace (what, you never knew Ace was a bug? Weirdo) with its flaming feathers.

Of course, not like the boisterous bugs couldn’t just shove it aside. Any genesect with electric coverage eviscerated it, pheromosa just clicked shock wave a few times, with quiver dance only brutalizing things further. Cinderace didn’t do TOO much, but it could also just fish for a gunk shot poison to avoid flame body. All in all, this bird isn’t the hottest thing on the block anymore.

 

[Finchinator]

On top of the above about losing defensive value, Moltres also does worse against common Stealth Rock setters right now, making it an ineffective Defog user. Other birds are far more common and consistent right now, leading to an overall drop in viability and usage. Perhaps it will surge again in the future, but for now we were pretty confident in moving it down.

 

[Red Raven]

I really think Moltres should drop to B- or C+ now that I take a closer look at the list. This mon is now once again overshadowed by Zapdos. Cinderace was its last lease in ou as it was one of the few mons that can handle Cinderace without too much trouble but now, soccer bunny is gone and Moltres just can't afford to switch into Kartana or Rillaboom. If there's anything that would make one regret life choice it is when you see your Moltres lose its boots

And by the way, I wanted to ask, how does a mon raise or drop in viability? Does it just take a bunch of votes and then added when the list is updated? If that's the case, how many votes does a mon need to be raised or drop?

 

[Finchinator]

And by the way, I wanted to ask, how does a mon raise or drop in viability? Does it just take a bunch of votes and then added when the list is updated? If that's the case, how many votes does a mon need to be raised or drop?

We have a viability ranking council usually consisting of 7-11 people, not to be confused with the OU tiering council, and they vote on the Pokemon in the slate. We also have a private chat to discuss opinions and potential discrepancies. If a strong majority is voted for on certain Pokemon, then that determines the ranking. Otherwise, discussion and potential in-chat tiebreaks are used. We do this for each slate; I use a spreadsheet to log votes and tally responses.

If you have more questions or want a little sneak peak on the process, shoot me a PM and I'd be glad to give you an in-depth walk through the whole ordeal. There's full transparency here!

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

I think moltres is far more threatening than yall are making it seem by far. however I will say that I think the defensive set is the worst one and I am assuming that this is the set almost all of yall are using and/or familiar with. Does anyone besides Storm Zone and I use offensive moltres? if not i can vouch for it.

 

[AM]

I think moltres is far more threatening than yall are making it seem by far. however I will say that I think the defensive set is the worst one and I am assuming that this is the set almost all of yall are using and/or familiar with. Does anyone besides Storm Zone and I use offensive moltres? if not i can vouch for it.

I only use offensive moltres when I use/used it because its a bad defogger anyways and doesnt defensively check anything well (at least to justify using a defensive one). I think its fine in its rank currently though.