Metagame SS LC

Éric

mons is mons
is a Pre-Contributor
Approved by Fiend and Coconut, copied from Acehunter1's SM LC thread. thanks to Hacker for the help
:ss/mienfoo: :ss/grookey: :ss/koffing: :ss/porygon:
Why play SS LC?
  • It's balanced and diverse: The meta has a wide range of viable threats and team archetypes, and each individual Pokemon tends to have many viable sets to choose from. It's a tier that encourages the player to build lots of teams; it even allows for easy innovation.
  • It's accessible: even though it doesn't share many metagame threats with Home SV LC, this tier is really similar to other old gens like SM and ORAS LC, having similar Pokémon and strategies being good. Also, since it is the latest old generation, it has a large playerbase and many resources, which are up to date.
  • It's very unique: there are lots of interactions that can only happen, or only do so regularly, in SS LC, like Koffing's Neutralizing Gas, Natu's Magic Bounce or the lack of Hidden Power.
Resources
Viability Ranking
Sample Teams
Role Compendium
 

Éric

mons is mons
is a Pre-Contributor
==Viability Rankings==

S Rank
:mienfoo: Mienfoo

A+ Rank
:porygon:
Porygon
:diglett: Diglett
:koffing: Koffing
:abra: Abra
:pawniard:
Pawniard

A Rank
:ferroseed: Ferroseed
:ponyta: Ponyta
:mareanie: Mareanie
:natu:
Natu

A- Rank
:grookey: Grookey
:carvanha: Carvanha
:tyrunt: Tyrunt
:frillish: Frillish


B+ Rank
:timburr: Timburr
:drilbur: Drilbur
:magnemite:
Magnemite
:staryu:Staryu

B Rank
:trapinch: Trapinch
:larvesta: Larvesta
:archen: Archen
:Vulpix: Vulpix
:charmander: Charmander
:mudbray: Mudbray

B- Rank
:dwebble: Dwebble
:onix:Onix
:morelull: Morelull
:foongus: Foongus
:pancham: Pancham

C Rank
:farfetch Faretch'd-Galar
:munchlax: Munchlax
:shellos-east: Shellos
:golett: Golett
:Sandygast: Sandygast
 

Éric

mons is mons
is a Pre-Contributor
==Role Compendium==

Format: solid at what it does || (shaky at doing so)

Section 1: Offensive roles
Speed related roles

These Pokémon have different ways to control speed, whether it be via natural speed, held items or priority moves.

Pokémon with 19 speed or higher

:abra: :diglett: :ponyta: :staryu: || (:ponyta-galar: :elekid: :wingull: :meowth:)

Choice Scarf users

:porygon: :magnemite: :charmander: || (:mienfoo: :diglett::mudbray: :archen: :vulpix: :amaura: :golett:)


Priority moves users

Fake Out

:Mienfoo: || (:grookey: :meowth:)

Grassy Glide

:grookey:

Sucker Punch

:Pawniard: :Diglett: || (:stunky:)

First Impression

:trapinch:

Feint

:trapinch: || (:mienfoo: :meowth:)

Mach Punch

:timburr:

Quick Attack

:bunnelby:

Vacuum Wave

:croagunk:

Ice Shard

:shellder: :snover:

Aqua Jet

:Corphish: || (:carvanha:)

Knock Off users
These Pokémon can utilize the move Knock Off to remove opposing Pokémon's items.

:mienfoo: :pawniard: :ferroseed: :grookey: :mareanie: :timburr: :archen: || (:abra: :farfetch :pancham: :corphish: :meowth::wingull:)

Wallbreakers
These Pokémon utilize their huge strength coupled with great stabs and/or good coverage to break holes in the opposing team.

:mienfoo: :abra: :pawniard: :porygon: :grookey: :ponyta: :mudbray: :ponyta-galar: :carvanha::pancham: :archen: :charmander: || (:staryu: :vulpix: :stunky: :bunnelby: :farfetch :wingull: :golett: :Corphish:)

Pivot moves users
These Pokémon are able to mantain offensive momentum using moves such as U-Turn, Volt Switch, Flip Turn or Teleport.

:mienfoo: :natu::porygon: :grookey: :carvanha: :magnemite: :archen: :slowpoke: :larvesta: || (:staryu: :bunnelby: :elekid: :pancham: :wingull: :chinchou: :meowth:)

Trappers
These Pokémon are able to trap opposing foes, whether it's all of them or depending of their typing.

:diglett: :trapinch: || (:magnemite: :wynaut:)

Set up sweepers
These Pokémon are able to use some moves or abilities to boost their stats, and likely wreak havoc amongst the opposing team.

Agility

:porygon:

Flame Charge

:ponyta: || (:vulpix:)

Calm Mind

:natu: || :ponyta-galar:

Speed Boost

:carvanha: || (:venipede:)

Iron Defense

:magnemite: || (:mareanie:)

Charge Beam

:magnemite:

Dragon Dance

:tyrunt: :onix: || (:corphish:)

Curse

:munchlax: :shellos:

Amnesia

:shellos:

Weak Armor

:onix: :dwebble: || (:sinistea:)

Shell Smash

:dwebble: :shellder:

Nasty Plot

:spritzee: :sinistea: :croagunk: || (:stunky:)

Swords Dance

:grookey: :pancham::farfetch || (:bunnelby: :sandshrew-alola: :corphish: :drilbur:)

Rapid Spin

:staryu: || (:drilbur: :sandshrew-alola:)

Weather setters
These Pokémon are able to set up weather with their abilities to help their teammates.

Sun

:vulpix: || (:diglett:)

Hail

:snover: || (:amaura:)

Weather abusers
These Pokémon utilize the field's weather in its favor, whether by having a speed-boosting ability or by the weather boosting their stabs.

Sun

:ponyta: :charmander:

Hail

:sandshrew-alola:

Section 2: Defensive roles
Hazards setters

These Pokémon support their teams setting up hazards.

Stealth Rock

:pawniard: :ferroseed: :diglett: :onix: :sandygast::drilbur:|| (:mudbray: :dwebble: :amaura: :golett:)

Spikes

:ferroseed: || (:dwebble: :bunnelby: :venipede:)

Hazard control
These Pokémon support their teams getting rid of the hazards on their field, or preventing them.

Rapid Spin

:staryu::drilbur: || (:sandshrew-alola: )

Magic Bounce

:natu:

Defog

:timburr: || (:cottonee:)

Screens setters
These Pokémon support their teams by using moves that effectively boost their teammates' bulk.

Reflect & Light Screen

:natu: :staryu: :abra:

Memento

:diglett: || (:cottonee: :stunky::vulpix: :koffing:)

Aurora Veil

:amaura:

Mienfoo checks

Defensive

:koffing: :mareanie: :foongus: || (:larvesta: :spritzee: :slowpoke: :shellos::cottonee: :venipede:)

Offensive

:abra: :natu: :porygon: :ponyta-galar: :archen: || (:charmander: :stunky:)

Abra checks

Defensive

:pawniard: :ferroseed: :porygon: :frillish: :magnemite: :munchlax: || (:spritzee::wynaut:)

Offensive

:diglett: :porygon: :grookey: :mudbray: :trapinch: :carvanha: :larvesta: :magnemite: || (:charmander: :stunky: :sandshrew-alola: :elekid:)

Porygon checks

Defensive

:pawniard: :ferroseed: :porygon: :frillish: :magnemite: :munchlax: || (:spritzee::wynaut:)

Offensive

:grookey: :mudbray: :trapinch: :onix: :magnemite: :timburr: :tyrunt: :archen: || (:diglett: :mienfoo: :croagunk: :pancham: :charmander::sandshrew-alola:)

Pawniard checks

Defensive

:mienfoo: :trapinch: :mudbray: :ponyta: :larvesta: :timburr: || (:pancham::shellos:)

Offensive

:mienfoo: :diglett: :mudbray: :ponyta: :onix: || (:charmander: :vulpix: :farfetch :magby:)

Grookey checks

Defensive

:koffing: :foongus: :ponyta: :larvesta::morelull: || (:ferroseed: :mareanie: :venipede:)

Offensive

:ponyta: :trapinch: || (:mienfoo: :natu: :pawniard: :diglett: :stunky: :charmander: :vulpix: :magby: :sandshrew-alola:)

Ponyta checks

Defensive

:staryu: :mareanie: :slowpoke: :onix: :porygon: :frillish: :sandygast: :munchlax: || (:mienfoo: :mudbray: :wynaut:)

Offensive

:diglett: :staryu: :mudbray: :trapinch: :onix: :tyrunt: :carvanha: :archen: || (:mienfoo: :dwebble: :shellder: :chinchou: :drilbur: :corphish:)

Staryu checks

Defensive

:ferroseed: :foongus: :frillish: :porygon: :slowpoke: :munchlax: :shellos: || (:magnemite: :mienfoo: :mareanie: :cottonee: :chinchou: :snover: :wynaut:)

Offensive

:grookey: :diglett: :porygon: :magnemite: || (:mienfoo: :trapinch: :tyrunt: :elekid:)

Ground checks

Defensive

:natu: :frillish: :slowpoke: :porygon: || (:mienfoo: :koffing: :shellos: :cottonee:)

Offensive

:grookey: :staryu: :porygon: :carvanha: :archen: || (:mienfoo: :diglett: :shellder: :wingull: :snover: :sandshrew-alola::corphish: :wynaut:)

Clerics
This Pokémon is able to use Wish to heal its health or its teammate's.

:spritzee:
 
Last edited:

Colin

formerly BeardedDrakon
is a Tiering Contributor
LCPL Champion
I played SS LC in LCPL a good amount, and since the tournament is over bar tiebreaks I can now post my meta opinions without leaking. I will be doing that in the form of VR noms.

:diglett: A+ -> S:

I am doing this nom for 2 reasons. One is that Mienfoo, while still being the best Pokemon in the tier, is less essential than it was with Timburr + Larvesta cores being an alternative for a few bulky offenses. Another is that Diglett is an extremely good glue that both enables offenses amazingly and is the best way to limit LO Abra, Magnemite, and Ponyta from freely taking multiple kills. Air Balloon sets in particular can both counter trap some other Diglett sets or avoid being trapped themselves, while other sets such as Pdef Eviolite, LO, and Choice Scarf all have important niches in the builder as well. In my opinion, Diglett is almost as needed as Mienfoo on most teams, and is as important to beat in the builder as Mienfoo. The only thing that made Diglett dependably worse this LCPL is the rise of Scarf Pawniard (Scarf Dig and Evio Pdef Dig can revenge kill though).

:abra: A+ -> A:

This one is very simple; LO Abra, usually its most dangerous set, can be reliably limited to only getting one kill by Air Balloon Diglett since the threat of being counter trapped isn't there. Scarf Pawniard becoming more common also makes Abra more prediction reliant. In spite of these two things, LO Abra is still among the scariest Pokemon in the tier and is pretty much unwallable. its teams also have ways to win vs AB dig, since Abra can still take a kill and it has other threats such as Magnemite + Dig and a defensive backbone to fall back on. Shed Shell + Knock Abra has seen some usage, but it falters against Ferro and has a 4mss wanting both substitute and submission.

:frillish: A- -> A:

Frillish is bulky, amazing vs fire types, and actually very good at forcing progress with the recent taunt sets. Wisp sets are still very good vs physical attackers such as Mienfoo, and it's one of the better answers into Sun teams, though its not infallible. It's very dependable since it is defensively useful every game, and can force progress reliably.

:morelull: B- -> A-:

Morelull is now the second best Fighting type counter. It has spore which often forces in Natu or claims something, it hits decently hard, has reliable recovery, and it has an extremely unique defensive profile. It compresses a water type switch in to your fight answer, and doesn't give entry to certain threats such as non Sludge Diglett and Abra, and can be a dark resist for Scarf Pawniard. Effect Spore might not be reliable, but it can punish U-turns among other things. Morelull's defensive profile is not without downsides though; its weak to all the other fighting type counters, and it doesn't choke regen Pokemon like Koffing does. Its also very weak to Poison Jab Mienfoo and Sludge Bomb Diglett which are used to snipe it.

:ferroseed: A -> A-:

Ferroseed is often passive and is a very bad rocker since it has difficulties breaking through Natu. Its spikes sets are very dangerous long term if rocks can be set by a teammate though. Because of these limitations, it only really fits well on bulkier balances, and it needs backup vs Abra since it cannot wall fire punch sets. Its role compression of being able to switch into water types is less useful on many teams, since they are less common, and can also be done by using Morelull as your fighting resist.

:larvesta: B -> B+:

Larvesta is a high risk high reward Pokemon, needing perfect hazard removal to function, losing to Stone Edge Mienfoo, and being trappable. It got more usage than anything in its rank by far which is why I nommed it up, and of the fighting type counters it uniquely has pivoting and hits extremely hard.

:carvanha: A- -> B+

Carvanha doesn't enjoy the rise of Morelull, and can also be prediction reliant to break. I'd imagine when paired with Poison Jab Mienfoo and/or running a Diglett set that isn't sash SpA it could be more consistent, but that hasn't happened yet. A good Pokemon, but doesn't have an elite team like it did last year.

:Grookey: A- -> B+:

Grookey has difficulties breaking on its own, and is also reliant on winning a speed tie vs opposing Natu to pose an endgame threat. Life Orb sets are better breakers, particularly with Wood Hammer, but lack the defensive utility that Eviolite sets have.

:onix: B- -> B:

Onix got a decent amount of usage, and is a good rocker with good defensive utility that can be a threatening DD mon with EQ + Head Smash coverage. Rock Blast sets are bad because they can't break Frillish or Morelull as easily.

:sandygast: C -> B:

Sandygast has proven to have a niche as a defensive rocker/ground type with recovery that can get past Natu with decent prediction. Its passive, but with spikes support and Koffing to make damage on Mienfoo stick its manageable.
 

Colin

formerly BeardedDrakon
is a Tiering Contributor
LCPL Champion
My team is out of LPL, so that means I can complain about the tier here w/o sabotaging my effort in that tournament. SS is in a bad state right now, with many games being mostly decided on match up, and many even match ups having speed ties or other 50/50's being a significant factor in who wins the game. The speed ties aren't as bad as they were in current gen in my opinion, but the mus have gotten more lopsided than they've ever been since the Magby ban in my opinion. Many Pokemon that were once good have been invalidated by Air Balloon Diglett, or simply don't fit well on teams anymore, which worsens the problem.

In my opinion, there are 3 particularly notable mu checks; they are:

:vulpix: - Sun is the most obvious mu check, as it has many auto win mus vs teams lacking enough fire resists and other counter play vs sun boosted Charmander/Ponyta. Sun might be broken, but more because it is restricting than that it is consistent. Diglett both helps and hurts this archetype, since it makes it much harder to position but also can invalidate Mareanie, provide secondary sun/rocks, and kill off other fire and rock types. If Diglett gets banned, Sun might break, but sun also loses an important support pick.

:abra: :porygon: - Life Orb Abra is usually broken into any team without a Diglett or Trapinch, and Porygon can counter trap many Diglett and Trapinch sets to enable other threats. Air Balloon or Shed Shell Diglett is amazing into these structures, but in my opinion its unhealthy to be forced to either run a specific pokemon or a very fast paced offense to avoid losing to Life Orb Abra. Abra can be prediction reliant, but it can often afford to run substitute to alleviate this. Mienfoo and the Pokemon it forces in are forced out by Abra, meaning it gets a lot of opportunity vs teams without Diglett.

:diglett: :air balloon: - Air Balloon/Shed Shell Diglett is a potential ban candidate to me. It limits Abra, which is good, but it also invalidates Pokemon such as Mareanie, Larvesta, and most electric types in addition to limiting or trapping even more. It being unable to be counter trapped usually means that these Pokemon become unviable or very inconsistent, since Shed Shell dig can not be limited to one kill/entry. Banning Diglett would be a drastic shift that would almost certainly result in more bans down the road, but considering the state of the tier almost no matter what gets used, I support this.

Another option would be to ban Mienfoo, since it is the most directly responsible for the tier's centralization through both its own usage and the counter play it forces. Each team is either HO, or has a dedicated switch in to Mienfoo, which Mienfoo often breaks with some support like hazards. I have few guesses on what the tier would look like without Mienfoo, but it is extremely restricting and the tier is extremely bad, so I support a ban. Many of the speed ties are because of Mienfoo too.

Hazard Stack is also an important mu check, but it can be outplayed more easily and has more ways to potentially beat it, so I consider it healthier.
 
:diglett: :air balloon: - Air Balloon/Shed Shell Diglett is a potential ban candidate to me. It limits Abra, which is good, but it also invalidates Pokemon such as Mareanie, Larvesta, and most electric types in addition to limiting or trapping even more. It being unable to be counter trapped usually means that these Pokemon become unviable or very inconsistent, since Shed Shell dig can not be limited to one kill/entry. Banning Diglett would be a drastic shift that would almost certainly result in more bans down the road, but considering the state of the tier almost no matter what gets used, I support this.
I agree with this, would even go as far as to say that Diglett makes Mienfoo more broken and that banning it would help with some issues such as speed ties. It doesn't just limit mons' usage but also how much they can do on a match, it almost feels like you're discouraged to use faster mons such as Abra/Ponyta to wallbreak or even just revenge kill because they don't get to do more than just picking a single KO before being trapped, without Diglett the offensive answers to Mienfoo would be more free and we could possibly even see Mareanie as another fighting resist grow in usage. Tho it does come with it's concerns i genuinely think that banning this mon is the best way to improve SS.
 
the VR really needs some changes so here is what i think reflects the lcwc meta best:

:diglett: S:
Diglett is undoubtedly the top 2 mon of the tier as it's the best speed control and revenge killer we have, it makes so much MUs better to handle and can trap a wide number of mons due to final gambit, also a solid SR setter.

:natu: A+:
Natu is the type of mon that you can add on any team and it will make it better, it's an incredible pivot, gives safety against spikestack and is quite versatile with sets, being able to run calm mind or life orb for extra firepower.

:frillish: A:
Frillish is an incredible wall that doesn't suffer from being too passive due to scald burn into hex being hard to switch into, it can break through it's own checks in the long run and is also very valuable against sun teams.

:pawniard: A:
Pawniard has to compete with ferroseed for the steel type slot on the team so they should be on the same rank, the scarf set is also very mediocre since it's very predict reliant and can easily lose momentum against mienfoo.

:abra: A-:
Abra needs to choose between having extra damage or being able to escape trapping which makes it awkward, counter trapping is not very reliable due to floating dig being everywhere but even then it's still the strongest mon in the meta and will be very good if you can fish for a team without diglett.

:morelull: B+:
Morelull is the second best fighting resist we currently have, it compresses fighting res and water res in the same slot and is very threatening to mienfoo with moonblast and effect spore, however it's very passive against ferro and has a notable weakness for tspikes or any poison coverage which can make it unreliable.

:archen: B+:
Archen is a solid scarfer that can force progress with knock + u-turn combo and has coverage to hit everything it needs, it can also run juice sets that have great wallbreak potential if given the opportunity, unfortunately defeatist + SR weakness limits a lot how much you can get out of it.

:sandygast: B+:
Sandygast has proved to be a solid SR setter and a wall that makes great defensive cores even outside of the usual hazard stack teams, however unlike frillish it's more passive and doesn't get many opportunities to fish for burns.

:tyrunt: B+:
Tyrunt doesn't like the rise of Morelull and Frillish/Sandygast but it's definitely still a solid sweeper that just needs someone to find a good team for it to start doing it's thing again.

:grookey: B:
Grookey has a hard time sweeping due to the limited turns it has + how much support it needs, it doesn't force much progress since it knocks the same mons that would be knocked by mienfoo (koffing and larv), has low defensive value for being a grass type that absolutely doesn't want to switch in on scalds and usually relies on speedties to break through natu.

:mareanie: B:
Mareanie is by far the most trappable fighting resist we have which makes it unreliable, however it's still a great mon that can make progress early by spamming knock off.

:timburr: B-:
There is 0 reasons to be running timburr outside of that one sun team rn, the 2 structures that would normally use it (fighting spam and larv teams) are mediocre, and in any other team you would much rather have mienfoo instead.

:trapinch: B-:
Hard to justify using trapinch over diglett, it still does it's job just fine but there aren't that many strong sweepers to abuse ferro/pory being removed so you usually don't get that many value out of it, not to mention fgambit dig can also trap ferro if needed while being much better overall.

:magnemite: B-:
Magnemite is nothing but a MU fish, scarf sets against dig teams need to win a 50/50 every single time and they also just can't break through ferro, the charge beam salac set can either insta win or be completely useless depending on wheter your opp has a ferro or not, overall a very unreliable mon.

:lileep: UR -> C:
Lileep is a niche SR setter that can absorb scalds from frillish and hits the same bulk as sandygast meaning it can also check the likes of natu and ponyta, however it's extremely passive with no way of punishing a mienfoo switch while also being weak to u-turn, it has a place in some tspikes teams but probably not something you would want to run often.

:foongus: C:
Foongus is simply outclassed by morelull, with lower defenses and no resist to knock it gets worn down very easily and really hates to face the common koffing + natu combination, the one niche it has is not having the tspikes weakness which could become relevant if more people start running that.

:pancham: UR:
i see no reason to run pancham at all, worse than the 2 other fighting types so it's only niche is on a fighting spam (which is already mediocre) and even then farfetch'd-galar is doing the same job, if not better.

:shellos: UR:
Shellos is simply outclassed by every single other defensive water type, no scald + hex combination, no spin + twave, no tp + future sight, the one niche it has is sticky hold but it's not enough when you're still being a passive mon that doesn't check anything the other water types don't, the cmn set is also very meme and needs a lot of support to not just insta lose against frillish.
 

Colin

formerly BeardedDrakon
is a Tiering Contributor
LCPL Champion
Teamdump:

https://pokepast.es/de6fddfb8e5f3a1d - a Morelull balance; its standard but is poor vs Toxic Spikes Koffing. You can use CM natu if you want here over U-turn. Used during LCWC w1.

https://pokepast.es/625c462f7e098730 - I cooked a bit too hard with this one, its very poor vs Onix and Tyrunt. Its neat offensively, but inconsistent. Used during LCWC w2.

https://pokepast.es/38b6d8964860fed7 - A Sandy Fat + Twave pawniard team, it is weak to Tspikes Koffing. its passive though. Used during LCWC w3

https://pokepast.es/ceff2309a118a420 - This team is flawed but decent. Scarf Archen is quite dangerous with hazards up but it needs hazards off itself which this team isn't amazing at ensuring. Mareanie knock is good but it can get trapped if not played carefully. Used during LCWC w4.

https://pokepast.es/c4d5ee79074b8d00 - Sun is extremely good and dangerous. Used during LCWC w5.

https://pokepast.es/e5f8bf202f62b269 - Dark Pulse Koffing is giga brain to make Sandygast a better mu, since Onix can't break through on its own. Scarf Pawniard isn't that good but because the Knock Off on Mienfoo is so high value it can pull its weight. You can put Twave on the scarf set if you want, but Beat Up and Sucker Punch are more generally useful than paralyzing Mienfoo. Used during LCWC playoffs stage 1.

https://pokepast.es/6792bfdfbde8c5d1 - Dark Pulse Koffing says hi again, but it has a 4mss on this team as it wants Thunderbolt and Fireblast and Tspike. This Diglett set is amazing, because it can use substitute on a Koffing and then ensure either rocks go up or Natu takes a Rock Slide. U-turn into Air Balloon Diglett also isn't a problem. The team is generally passive, which is a major problem, but spikes can pull a lot of weight if you can get past Natu. Used during LCWC semis

https://pokepast.es/37a435d5e64199e2 - I stole this team from the scout of my opponent but changed some stuff. I'm pretty sure Papillon also used this team. solid but prediction reliant, and weak to sun and Agility Porygon and Mareanie. Used during LCWC Semis Tiebreak. Fireblast Koffing over Wisp is also good here. Used during LCWC semis Tiebreak.

https://pokepast.es/ff68b1a8ef272f2a - By this point, I realized that Tspike Koffing was so dangerous that not bringing a grounded poison type was a bad plan, so I modified my LCWC semis team to make it more aggressive and called it a day. Air Balloon Diglett is a lot more threatening into this team though. Used during LCWC Finals.

This tier needs tiering action, with Diglett, Mienfoo, and Tspike Koffing its almost impossible to get creative without giving up terrible matchups.
 

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