Suspect SS AAA Suspect #9: Burning Red (Genesect)

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tzaur

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Irritated right now, 'cause I was on track to have a much cleaner record using Grim_Blazer double Unaware stall, but then the match-making system subsequently decided to load me into 3 Taunt breakers in a row and a MGLO Tran which both decimate the team once I was around 19-0. Should have just pivoted to one of astralydia's million teams featuring our crutch mon TC Gapdos since they always steamroll mid/upper ladder in my experience, lol.

Anyway, regardless of whether Gene deserves a ban (it does), it's surprising it took this long to suspect this thing. No sets are individually broken, but the thing is impossible to consistently check outside of Regenerator Heatran. Although rare, Gene can even decide to cross up Heatran by running Primordial Sea + Douse Drive which can still make Tran's life miserable--even vs. Desolate Land Tran if positioned well. I understand the nature of AAA, but Gene, to me, adds this bullshit layer of guesswork that goes far beyond that any other legal mon and even most if not all of the currently banned ones. Moreover, its access to Shift Gear can allow it to create large holes in opposing teams while sometimes forcing players to expend more resources than they should trying to deal with it due to it doubling its speed, shrugging off many forms of priority, and regaining a good chunk of its health back via Leech Life vs. non-resists. Ban.
 

Hera

Make a move before they can make an act on you
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The table's back bitches

My position is clear and has been clear for over a year: Genesect is THE most broken mon in the meta, arguably the most constraining force when building, and while banning it wouldn't fix the tier entirely, it would go a long way to solve the matchup issues that plague the meta. I cannot begin to explain how frustrating it is to take into account 4-5 Genesect sets when building, but you load into the one or two sets you forgot and autolose. Yes, there is an opportunity cost to running each Genesect set (barring Scarf but that set sucks) considering that it doesn't do a ton when it does find an MU where it is checked, but imo not only is it super easy to support Genesect with offensive partners, but I would argue that Genesect's sheer set viability constantly forces you to spin the Red Roulette on team preview; even if you prepare for a set and load into it, you won't know that it's the set you've prepped for, even after it clicks SG, which makes switching in on it that much more difficult. Genesect can't beat EVERYTHING with one set, but it beats enough with an absurd amount of sets that cannot be guessed from team preview and which forces suboptimal passive building decisions so you don't autolose to it. I am very glad that the supermajority is leaning in favor of a ban, because fuck this mon.

Also, I usually would not advocate for a quickban this late in the gen, but can Koko leave if Genesect gets banned? It's been dumb and broken ever since Pixilate Koko was rediscovered, and Scarf Regen Genesect has been constantly cited by council members and other players as the only reason it hasn't been QBed yet. Without Gene, offensive counterplay becomes Barraskewda or bust, and defensive counterplay is down to PhyDef Swampert (loses to Grass Knot), DS Hippo, Regen Nido (bad without Koko in the tier), and Regen Exca (also bad without Koko). VA Corv is a fake check.
 
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hayedenn

forgotten me already?
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Also, I usually would not advocate for a quickban this late in the gen, but can Koko leave if Genesect gets banned? It's been dumb and broken ever since Pixilate Koko was rediscovered, and Scarf Regen Genesect has been constantly cited by council members and other players as the only reason it hasn't been QBed yet. Without Gene, offensive counterplay becomes Barraskewda or bust, and defensive counterplay is down to PhyDef Swampert (loses to Grass Knot), DS Hippo, Regen Nido (bad without Koko in the tier), and Regen Exca (also bad without Koko). VA Corv is a fake check.
proof? please don't smear people's position on this so transparently

also id added ferrothorn, jirachi, roseli chomp, heatran, scarf azelf, zarude, triage bulu, scarf landorus-t, unaware chansey/mew (cm sets), chandelire, nihilego, and doublade (pixie) to your list
 

Hera

Make a move before they can make an act on you
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proof? please don't smear people's position on this so transparently
My mistake, this came from me misunderstanding a post from current council member avyrie. It wasn't Scarf Gene stopping Koko from being QBed, it was Koko stopping Genesect from being banned because the Scarf Regen set was a valuable tool for dealing with most Koko sets (it loses to double dance but that's besides the point). Sorry!

also id added ferrothorn, jirachi, roseli chomp, heatran, scarf azelf, zarude, triage bulu, scarf landorus-t, unaware chansey/mew (cm sets), chandelire, nihilego, and doublade (pixie) to your list
I forgot about Ferrothorn, Jirachi, and Triage Bulu, but the others either require specific sets to deal with Koko (Heatran needs Regen so it can heal off Volt and possibly Nature's Madness damage, Lando needs to be Scarf Regen and not WS Scarf or else it's 2HKOed), are assmons that would see fringe usage without Koko/already see fringe usage with Koko (Roseli Chomp, Doublade, Nihilego), or can't actually switch into Koko more than once (Zarude, Azelf, Chandy) because they're OHKOed, 2HKOed, or get Volted on and lack recovery. Even with the ones that are actually switch-ins, Ferro needs to be Regen and not FF/PS so it's a long-term answer, and I've personally experienced games where my RegenVest Jirachi gets worn down by Koko over the course of a game because Facade + Volt + Rocks adds up very fast. Granted, this is more my poor wording than anything; I should have specified counters, not checks, which based on the examples I provided is what I intended to mean. Even if you were to assume that I strictly meant checks, the last 4 mons mentioned (Unaware Mew/blob, Chandy, Nihilego, Doublade) are not checks because the latter 3 are slower and get Volted on (unless they're an unset like Scarf), and the former cannot check Pixilate Koko, which is what I mentioned. I don't understand where you got CM sets from.
 
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I don't have much to say since a great man once said:
"I think y'all should l2p there are a lot of tools to beat everything you're complaining about you just are focusing on the things you know and you've learned to know but come on if it doesn't work one way try another one, the day you'll be stuck in life bc you're in a situation you haven't learned at school you'll cry and call life broken? nah you will find another way, another tools to go through, everything is in ur mind you're just blocking urself in the patterns u know, stop being afraid of the unknown, of the match-up, of the set, adapt urself and play w/ it. not that i care anyway, but yh think on ur feet;
Luke 6:41
Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but fail to notice the beam in your own eye?
To meditate"
 

Glitchwood High

formerly Err0r Mobutt
that was a lot more fun than I thought it would be
shoutout to Royal going 22-0 with the team I built while I go 28-6 lmfao
anyways
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anyways! None of genesect's sets are particularly strong on it's own and there are some pretty strong blanket checks to a number of sets but....Genesect is hilariously versatile and even those blanket checks fall apart to a lot of stuff. Guessing the moveset of even H.O. Genesect is a massive pain in the ass and until you see that last moveslot you could get your shit slapped up Even with me running VA Corv (which is NOT bad and I have no clue where that sentiment came from), Haze Toxapex and Priority Zarude the metal bug still poses a massive threat.

Although that being said, I don't think it's...overwhelming? Though Genesect has a shitton of sets, none of them are 'uniquely' threatening; most of the sets aren't nearly oppressive enough to warp temabuilding. Additionally, it's a pretty matchup fishy mon and is very prone to doing nothing in a game, buuut even then, it has NINE fucking abilities in the compendium, and four good ones!

This post is mostly stating the obvious, but yeah--any individual set is, at most, decent, but it's almost a 'perfect' offensive mon because it could run practically everything on an offensive spectrum. Is it very scary? Yeah. Meta-defining? Probably. But what makes a Pokemon broken is when dealing with it becomes unreasonably difficult; i.e., trying to adequately prepare against it (if possible) is so hard that the metagame becomes centralized and it reduces skill.

No Genesect set is that hard, in a vacuum, to deal with. But is dealing with them too much? Are we even supposed to deal with all of them (because no team is supposed to be able to deal with literally everything, otherwise that shit would be broken too)? Answering this is kind of difficult. But I'm excited to see what comes next.

Honestly not sure how I'm gonna vote tbh,,,
 

Clas

My death was... greatly exaggerated
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In:GSAAADMPenguin.

mod edit: do you have proof you own the alt, and that the alt meets reqs? A screenshot like kDCA’s would be perfect.
usually you post after you have required suspect requirements with a screenshot (dont worry about that this time around i can reply with it), but even now you unfortunately lack the requirements (min 25 played, 78%+ gxe). sorry man.
 
Hey minor issue but when I tried to bring genesect’s ideal set to try it out it said I could only bring 4 moves, anyone know what’s up with that?

More seriously, genesect has always been one of those mons that can beat everything but never actually does. I still hold that it’s best current set is scarf regen because that one will always do something instead of blindly fishing for the perfect matchup. Will be interesting to see how the vote goes.
scarf genesect gets walled to eternity by regen walls, so I'm fine with it
 

abriel

I’m with you.
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Every Genesect set is manageable and some like scarf are healthy but the fact you have to prep for like 10 sets with 15 viable moves is what makes this mon so fucking stupid to deal with. It is nearly impossible to load up a good team that doesn't effectively autolose to a specific set. More than happy to potentially see it go.
 

Isaiah

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Why I'm gonna vote DNB

TL;DR Genesect having a lot of sets is fine because it's not too much trouble to have good answers to majority of them, and occasionally losing to a random one bc someone teched something super specific is...not that big of a deal. After thinking about it a lot, coming up with cool ways to counter your counterplay is just AAA fundamentals at this point.

If you have replays of Genesect being broken, that would be great, I didn't bother with replays because it's so mediocre in so many games I play/watch (even in tour play!).

Anyway, to my understanding there are three categories of Genesect:

> Mixed Shift Gear (No Guard, SFLO, Primordial Sea I guess)
> Physical (Guts,Tinted Lens, -ate, SFLO sometimes)
> Misc. (RegenScarf)

There are probably more sets or whatever that someone in a dark basement has manufactured specifically for beating the meta, but this is what I came up with in a quick skim of recent memory. That being said,

I can honestly say that I have yet to see a decent team without some way of outplaying/beating Genesect.
Going to the very BASICS and only using the first few Sample teams as examples:
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Admittedly is trouble if Genesect can shift gear on chomp, mew or pex, but even then...? Pex can knock it off so Moltres has good chance to eat electric move and kills it, limiting to a 2:1 trade, koko can do taunt/Facade 2HKO mindgames to prevent the setup, moltres outright kills it, scarf gene cooks it with flamethrower and is faster.

1664320967466.png

Tinted First Impression snaps Genesect in half, gzap is faster than standard sets and ohkos with STAB, Mew can trick, Blissey can Flamethrower on setup turn...there are actually quite a few options.

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This team has a heatran so it innately has decent options vs virtually any Genesect set, but even then scarf lati prevents setup with mystical fire, zarude can darkest lariat and put it away for good, and zapdos (is slower for some reason but) chops it up with a hurricane.

I don't want to write an essay about every single sample team bc then this post would become too long, but I stand by my opinion that gameplans on how to beat Genesect aren't that hard to put together or realize. Sure, if you get outplayed by the opponent and they get every turn right, you lose--but that's absolutely fine and they probably deserved it at that point.

I also wanted to address a little bit of Genesect counterplay as well. To make it as straightforward as possible, I'll literally just go down the VR and mention common mons. If you are reading this and are like "Well, that mon's just bad anyway", then I personally think you're probably missing out on the scope of teambuilding options in AAA--all of these mons are either consistently viable or each have a relevant niche even outside of Genesect, but this isn't a viability rankings nom so I won't get into the meat of that argument. Also keep in mind that these are all assuming it's setup Genesect since while regen Genesect is really good, it also probably has the most straightforward counterplay ever: pivot around it lmao.

Pokemon
Choice Scarf :Mew:/:Azelf:/:Genesect:/:Tapu Fini: - Threaten trick and/or fire move
:Tapu Koko: - Definitely not a counter, but it can at least Taunt on Shift Gear, or do > 50% with Pixilate Facade, or even fish for para with Discharge (don't do this unless you're desperate LOL)
:Heatran: (DesoLand, Regen, Magic Guard, whatever you like tbh) - Can eat pretty much any hit from Genesect even after it gets a Shift Gear and OHKO it back (I don't rate flash fire genesect because come on now, you KNOW you aren't putting that on a team in any serious capacity LOL). Even without regen, you can keep your heatran relatively healthy with leftovers + slow pivoting into it very reasonably -> I'm not even good but I can at least recognize that much.
:Chansey: - Whether it's Unaware or not, Chansey can Thunder Wave -> Teleport to something to kills Genesect
:Corviknight: - Volt Absorb bulk up can deal with boltbeam sets, flash fire works vs the facade + gunk shot + blaze kick set that Laxpras mentioned (Flash Fire Steels are literally fine in Heatran meta btw, that mon is bonkers)
:Ferrothorn: - Doesn't necessarily "win", but knocking LO and/or Leech Seeding on the Shift Gear can be good for pivoting around to teammates like Swampert and whatnot to wear Genesect down
:Mandibuzz: - Beats purely physical genesect with Dauntless Shield or Unaware and puts it to bed with Foul Play (Also lives the electric move from full more than 80% of the time lmao)
:Talonflame: - Isn't setup fodder bc it outspeeds and OHKOs
:Terrakion: - Isn't setup fodder bc it outspeeds and OHKOs
:Zapdos: - Doesn't OHKO but does loads of damage so you can capitalize on weakened Gene w/ teammates
:Zapdos-Galar: - Isn't setup fodder bc it outspeeds and OHKOs
:Zygarde-10%: - Isn't setup fodder bc it does 99.6% min if adamant, 90% min if jolly so you can capitalize on weakened Gene
:Barraskewda: - Isn't setup fodder bc it outspeeds and OHKOs
:Blissey: - Other than Thunder Wave -> Teleport, even BLISSEY can get licks in vs Genesect by opting to run Flamethrower (or Fire Blast) instead of Seismic Toss to abuse the Shift Gear turn or just plain eat any unboosted hit and cook it in return.
:Cinderace: Extremely good mon already, also has the "niche" of OHKOing Genesect with fire moves
:Dhelmise: - you're dead if they use their brain and attack instead of trying to setup lmao, but you still prevent the setup turn bc poltergeist OHKOs if CB, almost OHKOs if LO and then you just GGlide after
:Inteleon: - Isn't setup fodder bc it outspeeds and OHKOs
:Jirachi: - Similar to ferro in that it doesn't necessarily win, but can run fire punch to do a ton then play around the weakened Genesect until it dies.
:Kommo-o: - Honestly depends on the set, if it's physical you can rocky helmet + body press to squeak out the win, if it's mixed then No Guard Blizzard only has a 6% chance to OHKO max HP + 40 spdef Kommo-o, meaning you can rocky helm + body press and capitalize on weakened OR triage drain punch and do the same
:Landorus-Therian: - Scarf Aerilate can Body Slam/Explosion, Scarf Regen/AV Regen can EQ and capialize on weakened w/ teammates
:Latios: - Frankly I don't think Latios is A- to begin with, but even HERE if it's tinted Latios it isn't setup fodder and OHKOS, and even if it's any other set you do a million damage and capitalize on weakened w/ teammates

All of these are Pokemon I'd say are collectively very common and not unreasonable to build with (none of them are currently lower than A-), and this doesn't even include more generalized plans like having cores that do well into Genesect or other mons like Volcarona and Swampert that can OHKO or Roar it out. And before the argument of "why do you need multiple forms of counterplay for one Pokemon" come out, let's not pretend as though we don't already do that for just about every strong attacker or setup mon in the tier (Zapdos-Galar, Terrakion, Heatran, Tapu Lele, etc.)

So yeah, I think Err0r Mobutt unironically put it best when in his Genesect post in the main AAA thread he said: "Your team won't beat all Genesect sets, but it's beating most of them, and they're only running one". I highly doubt people are making a legitimate effort to have some kind of Genesect prep/gameplan and are just autlosing every game (or even any significant number of games) to random tech sets...come on now. If that was actually happening, every Genesect discussion would be littered with replays.
 
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