Also, with Specs this Mon might be the new Kyurem, since Freeze Dry + Surf hit everything neutrally except Shedinja, Dewgong and Walrein (Thick Fat) which won't be in the meta. My favorite Paradox form by far.
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Metagame [SPOILERS] Scarlet & Violet OU Discussion [BAN LIST POST 626]
- Thread starter ironwater
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guys
guys
GUYS
we need to talk
we need to talk about Roaring Moon
Roaring Moon - 105/139/71/55/101/119 (Total: 590) - Dragon/Dark - Protosynthesis
Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy/Life Orb
Jolly
252 Atk/252 Spe/4 Def
- Iron Head
- Throat Chop
- Earthquake/Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw/Outrage
2HKOs everything at +1, except fairy steels if you choose to remove quake
+1 252 Atk Roaring Moon Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Enamorus-Therian: 186-220 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 184-218 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Roaring Moon Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 242-286 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Roaring Moon Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Scream Tail: 200-236 (46 - 54.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Magearna: 226-266 (62 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This thing gets a kill or two if it comes in, which is quite possible with its decent special bulk.
It is broken under sun with DD for speed buff.
Speed is the limiting stat here, but dragon dance fixes that.
Buzzwole would wall it, but it doesn't exist.
guys
GUYS
we need to talk
we need to talk about Roaring Moon
Roaring Moon - 105/139/71/55/101/119 (Total: 590) - Dragon/Dark - Protosynthesis
Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy/Life Orb
Jolly
252 Atk/252 Spe/4 Def
- Iron Head
- Throat Chop
- Earthquake/Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw/Outrage
2HKOs everything at +1, except fairy steels if you choose to remove quake
+1 252 Atk Roaring Moon Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Enamorus-Therian: 186-220 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 184-218 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Roaring Moon Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 242-286 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Roaring Moon Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Scream Tail: 200-236 (46 - 54.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Magearna: 226-266 (62 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This thing gets a kill or two if it comes in, which is quite possible with its decent special bulk.
It is broken under sun with DD for speed buff.
Speed is the limiting stat here, but dragon dance fixes that.
Buzzwole would wall it, but it doesn't exist.
Booster Energy is an insane item for paradox forms, it's basically a choice-free band/scarf/specs. I think you'd want to run that on most of them. Flutter Mane can have a free scarf with calm mind or a free specs if it runs modest. The speed boost might seem useless with its already high stat, but outspeeding +1 Roaring Moon, +1 Chomp and other speed Booster Energy users like Iron Valliant as well as scarf users is pretty big. It also means CM Flutter Mane almost can't be revenge killed. Great Tusk, Iron Hands and and Iron Moth reach huge power levels with no drawback, Roaring Moon and Iron Thorn get to +2 (or x2.25 depending on how the boost works) Atk and +1 Speed after a DD, and Iron Valliant can raise its Atk, SpA or Speed (the latter will probably more common). This item is too busted to be given to 570 BST mons, I think it should be one of the first bans this gen.
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flutter mane will most likely run speed boosting energy, considering pult ohkoes if it doesn't
Flutter Mane won't survive more than 2 weeks in the meta, methinks. Perfect coverage with those stats is a recipe for swift ban
Stealth Rock was everywhere for 5 generations and is much more discriminating, yet it was never banned because it was deemed a "balancing factor". If Spikes were to be banned, Stealth Rock has to go first.
i think they only activate the first time a mon comes in and aren't a permanent boost, if they do function as choice-free band/scarf/specs they are broken for sure tho. if they're one-time boost items they seem fair, but they will definitely be very useful items, especially on setup sweepers that can function on HO teams. flutter mane with +1 spe and cm/taunt/shadow ball/moonblast seems extremely hard to deal with if you don't have a shadow sneak user or something of that nature. flutter mane is looking like a pretty easy ban anyway tho given it's more or less spectrier with fairy stab, it outspeeds and heavily threatens most of the meta and anything that doesn't get 2hko'd can probably be invalidated as a check by cm and taunt/sub.
Agreed, Flutter Mane is busted and i believe it will go banned pretty quickly.
they are 1 time boost items that get consumed on entry for the boost. flutter mane should defo only come in when it knows it can take out important opposing mons or sweep through.
Potential new demon sweeper (best in lower tiers but could find a niche in higher tiers) thanks to the eeveelution calm mind buffs
"We have Suicune at home"
The Suicune at home
Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 224 Def / 36 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Acid Armor
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power/Terablast/Surf
- Rest/Wish
This set is somewhat inspired by InvisibleWater's post in this thread, thanks to its natural bulk, stored power and (new) access to calm mind and acid armor, vaporeon can somewhat reliably function as a "Crit-me not" sweeper. Thanks to terastalise, vaporeon can change into a steel/poison type to prevent itself being toxic stalled which allows it to use wish as a recovery move instead of rest and keep its water immunity. Like other crit-me not/demon sweepers this set is pretty matchup-fishy and requires dark types and fast taunt users to be removed/poisoned before attempting a sweep, so I don't see this thing being revolutionary or anything
"We have Suicune at home"
The Suicune at home
Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 224 Def / 36 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Acid Armor
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power/Terablast/Surf
- Rest/Wish
This set is somewhat inspired by InvisibleWater's post in this thread, thanks to its natural bulk, stored power and (new) access to calm mind and acid armor, vaporeon can somewhat reliably function as a "Crit-me not" sweeper. Thanks to terastalise, vaporeon can change into a steel/poison type to prevent itself being toxic stalled which allows it to use wish as a recovery move instead of rest and keep its water immunity. Like other crit-me not/demon sweepers this set is pretty matchup-fishy and requires dark types and fast taunt users to be removed/poisoned before attempting a sweep, so I don't see this thing being revolutionary or anything
"We have Manaphy at home"
The Manaphy at home:
Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 232 Def / 252 SpA / 24 Spe
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Surf
- Ice Beam / Tera Blast / Rain Dance
No idea how good this will actually be, but I hope it is.
The in-game description specifically states it only works on terrain.
Though I havent tried it on hazards yet, so it might still, but I wouldnt bank on it being hazard control.
Smoking that Pex pack rn
pex no longer gets knock or scald
so if pex no longer gets knock or scald, and recover has 5 pp, looks rough, good thing regenerator is a thing
Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Atk / 204 SpD
- Haze
- Poison Jab/Gunk Shot
- Baneful Bunker/Recover
- Surf
Haze is still a thing to annoy set up sweepers, Jab and Gunk shot to go to war with mons, especially clef, you could try Bunker for a bit more black sludge recovery, or recover itself since regen lets you use it less, surf because you need something
Cyclizar is the new Tornadus!
Cyclizar @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shed Tail
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin
- U-Turn / Draco Meteor / Dragon Claw
Please welcome the one way you can actually beat hazard stack! Cyclizar is going to be really, really strong this gen because it’s one of the only good mons with hazard control(in this case, Rapid Spin). To make things better, it’s also one of the only mons with KNOCK OFF this gen, meaning it’s also critical for hazard stacking teams themselves! Regenerator means it doesn’t have to worry about the recovery nerf, because it just clicks U-Turn and heals anyways. Plus, Shed Tail is monstrous with Regenerator, letting it pass some subs for a dangerous sweeper like Flutter Mane, Volcarona, or Garchomp. Overall, you should probably be spamming a lot of Cyclizar once the meta settles down from the Tera HO frenzy it will be at the start. With how good hazard stack is looking to be, it’ll probably be required on balance anyways.
Cyclizar @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shed Tail
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin
- U-Turn / Draco Meteor / Dragon Claw
Please welcome the one way you can actually beat hazard stack! Cyclizar is going to be really, really strong this gen because it’s one of the only good mons with hazard control(in this case, Rapid Spin). To make things better, it’s also one of the only mons with KNOCK OFF this gen, meaning it’s also critical for hazard stacking teams themselves! Regenerator means it doesn’t have to worry about the recovery nerf, because it just clicks U-Turn and heals anyways. Plus, Shed Tail is monstrous with Regenerator, letting it pass some subs for a dangerous sweeper like Flutter Mane, Volcarona, or Garchomp. Overall, you should probably be spamming a lot of Cyclizar once the meta settles down from the Tera HO frenzy it will be at the start. With how good hazard stack is looking to be, it’ll probably be required on balance anyways.
Agree with everything except a minor nitpick in the part in which you say, "one of the only knock off Mons" . Its true that many Mons lost access to it, but many still have it and many new got the Move:
-The already mentioned Cyclizar.
-Muk Alola.
-Pelipper.
-Gardevoir/Gallade.
-Zoroark (Hisuian one might be relevant, though its the one that doesn,t have STAB on it).
-Grass starter.
-Hoopa-U
-Rillaboom (won,t be OU anymore but still will be usable, Wood Hammer is very strong).
-Klawf (won,t be OU, but will see usage, since it has Regenerator too).
-Great Tusk
-Iron Treads
-Iron Jugulis
-Iron Valiant
-Wo chien (won,t be OU with that typing, but 570 Stats are still relevant).
-Toedscruel (won,t be OU, but has solid bulk and Rapid Spin too).
Regarding Cyclizar himself, a good partner for it would be Gholdengo, which resist every single Cyclizar's weakness, blocks Spin (and possibly Defog, confirmation is needed) and has solid bulk + STAB Shadow Ball from base 133 Special Attack, with Nasty Plot + Recover too. Honestly, if it wasn,t for the abbundance of Dark Mons and the offensiveness of the meta, Gholdengo could end up banned.
Speaking about Banned Mons:
-Cinderace this time probably should be OU, Libero has been severely nerfed. It will still be Top Tier, but not capable of breaking entire teams anymore.
-Giratina-A might not be broken. Rest has been nerfed, Toxic is gone (though it rarely used it) and many Dark types among other wallbreakers will populate OU now. Of course, it should not be unbanned Day 1, but once the meta settles down it could be tested. Giratina would be one of the only Deffogers in the game, a needed trait for the meta (only if its deemed not broken after testing though).
-Same goes for both Zamazenta formes. They have been nerfed and even Body Press doesn,t look broken enough for me. They could be a useful countermeassure to Dark SPAM.
-On the other hand, there is Spectrier. I was very against its Ban in SS, but it gained Draining Kiss. No, the population of Darks is not an excuse for a fast offensive threat with Nasty Plot and God ability, this horse now is clearly busted.
I was looking at some of the moves that got thanos snapped and saw
Power Up punch (for the bulky attackers)
Signal Beam (if you wanted that coverage somehow)
Foresight (so back to simple psiquic spam instead of stack damage mess)
and besides that, HP and pursuit are still not in the game so that means more ghost spam, halloween never ends boys
Power Up punch (for the bulky attackers)
Signal Beam (if you wanted that coverage somehow)
Foresight (so back to simple psiquic spam instead of stack damage mess)
and besides that, HP and pursuit are still not in the game so that means more ghost spam, halloween never ends boys
To be fair Cetitan does get EQ and Belly Drum so given it already outspeeds everything in hail (hits 538 with Jolly, so it can blow past Scarf Kart) and the fact that it'll be hilariously bulky behind AC it could actually be kinda threatening. Now I'm not sure how reliable of a snow setter Abomasnow will be, and with no Defog presumably you'll definitely have your work cut out for you from the getgo, but this shit still has a lot of potential.
So outside of Slowbro Palafin 2HKOs every mon likely to show its face in OU this gen.
Elemental Hero Aqua Neos (Palafin) @ Choice Band
4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
- Wave Crash
- Flip Turn
- Close Combat
- Jet Punch/Zen Headbutt
Zen Headbutt 2HKOs Toxapex and Max Defense Clodsire. Wave Crash 2HKOs most common Slowking variants. Everything else you can think of is either 2HKOd by Close Combat or OHKOd by Wave Crash if it doesn't resist.
Elemental Hero Aqua Neos (Palafin) @ Choice Band
4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
- Wave Crash
- Flip Turn
- Close Combat
- Jet Punch/Zen Headbutt
Zen Headbutt 2HKOs Toxapex and Max Defense Clodsire. Wave Crash 2HKOs most common Slowking variants. Everything else you can think of is either 2HKOd by Close Combat or OHKOd by Wave Crash if it doesn't resist.
yeah, belly drum and eq are really great for it. finding a good setter will be hard though, abomasnow gives you veil but doesn't seem too great of a setter for it (seems like it'd be hard to get in with it) and both slowking forms have chilly reception to set snow + pivot out, which is great but the lack of veil might make it hard to set up with belly drum. i think it'll be pretty hard to sweep without using belly drum, cetitan doesn't have anything like bolt beak to immediately threaten things. it might end up being a better idea to use other ice types to abuse chilly reception with but it's hard to tell right now
Basculegion @ Choice Scarf
Jolly max/max
Adaptability
- Last Rites
If you thought Dracovish was absurd... Last rites is apparently 50 base power plus 50 per dead ally. That means with Adaptability and this as your last mon, you're at a 600 base power physical ghost move off of 112 base attack. That makes this a Jolly choice scarfer that cleanly ohkos max/max Toxapex, for example. *If* this is actually how the move works... Hope everyone planned a normal type for their day one team.
Jolly max/max
Adaptability
- Last Rites
If you thought Dracovish was absurd... Last rites is apparently 50 base power plus 50 per dead ally. That means with Adaptability and this as your last mon, you're at a 600 base power physical ghost move off of 112 base attack. That makes this a Jolly choice scarfer that cleanly ohkos max/max Toxapex, for example. *If* this is actually how the move works... Hope everyone planned a normal type for their day one team.
where did you hear it was +50 per dead mon? I heard we didn't have the exact power increase yet, and 50 sounds way too high, probably closer to 20-30 if I had to guess
That or Sucker Punch, either way that is going to be nasty. Though considering that Population Bomb is effectively a 300 BP multi hit move with the Loaded Dice and when boosted by Maushold's Technician strong AF moves seems to be the flavor of this Gen.
Also, minor nitpick but isn't the moves name Last Respects?
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