Ladder Smogon Triples

I wuv you said:
I've played with teams dedicated to it, against teams dedicated to it, with teams with just one, and against teams with just one.

None of them are broken.
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then what do they provide that helps the metagame develop? Even if they aren't broken they are still over centralizing
 
Chenkovsky said:
A team
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this isn't contributing anything to the argument, but i've battled against someone named Juicy on Battle Spot who uses a perish trap team and every time i go up against him i can never take a game off him. since i've gone up against him so many times, i think i have the gist of the team, and now that i look at it, it's a pretty elegant team. although i'm pretty easy to impress as long as gothmaw is in the equation lol. note that this is going off memory and experience so idk EV spreads or items that aren't announced are just guesses on my part

Gothitelle @ Leftovers
Shadow Tag

Future Sight
Protect
Rain Dance
Trick Room

Politoed @ Sitrus Berry?
Drizzle

Perish Song
Protect
Scald
Ice Beam?

Mawile @ Mawilestone
Intimidate

Play Rough
Sucker Punch
Iron Head
Protect

Ludicolo @ ???
Swift Swim

Fake Out
Giga Drain
Hydro Pump
???

Kingdra @ Focus Sash?
Swift Swim

Hydro Pump
Protect
Draco Meteor?
???

Klefki @ Light Clay
Prankster

Reflect
Light Screen
???
???

the holes should be easy to fill in for anyone wanting to try it out. usually what happens is that perish trap goes up -> mawile or the rain core busts the rest of the team up if politoed isn't in any shape to set up again. mawile doesn't go mega until perish trap runs through half the team for intimidate support to ensure gothitelle doesn't die (which is exactly what happens). note that klefki can learn imprison, making any imprison+perish song misdreavus (just about the hardest counter for perish song i think) useless. Future Sight gothitelle is neat as well to get damage off on the back 3 pokemon after perish trap does its work on the front 3.
 
I wuv you said:
I've played with teams dedicated to it, against teams dedicated to it, with teams with just one, and against teams with just one.

None of them are broken.
Click to expand...
Real talk though, if you plan on making broad statements but don't plan on backing them up with some evidence (or at the very least a reason why you feel the way you do) then you probably shouldn't be posting about it. I like triples so I figured I'd post a few reasons. as to why I think Perish Trap was deserving of a ban:
  • The effects are devastating in Triples. As others have said, your opponent using Perish Song and then stalling you out will take care of half of your team at minimal risk to the opponent, putting you in a really bad position.
  • While in a hypothetical sense, attacks can do this too, Perish Trap is much harder to safeguard against. When it comes to dealing with attacks, one has Protect/Detect, Wide Guard, Quick Guard, Rage Powder/Follow Me, and straight up switching, to name a few things, so a good team typically has many options to deal with attacks. However, dealing with Perish Trap is much harder, as it is a strategy that actively discourages interaction with the opponent (Perish Trap > Protect, switch). The only way to really answer it is to bring a Soundproof Pokemon, an Imprison Pokemon, or a Taunter, which aren't really effective options (and Taunt fails entirely if your Taunter isn't in at the time or if the opponent just puts Perish Song on something that doesn't usually carry it, so you don't think to Taunt it). These options will lead to you having a much less effective team though (with the exception of Taunt).
  • One of the main flaws of Perish Trap in Doubles is that you could just use offensive pressure to prevent being set up on by playing carefully with support Pokemon. However, in Triples one could just hide their Perish Song user in a corner where they'll be safe from your most threatening Pokemon. Pairing it with an effective support mon can ensure that they get Perish Trap off very successfully and wreak havok on your team.
  • It's an uncompetitive strategy in that it seeks to avoid interaction with the opponent whenever possible, making the game much more about your matchup than one that involves much skill.
These in conjunction with the arguments already suggested give some pretty good reasons as to why a metagame without Perish Trap would be preferable to a metagame with it.
 
Audiosurfer said:
Real talk though, if you plan on making broad statements but don't plan on backing them up with some evidence (or at the very least a reason why you feel the way you do) then you probably shouldn't be posting about it. I like triples so I figured I'd post a few reasons. as to why I think Perish Trap was deserving of a ban:
  • The effects are devastating in Triples. As others have said, your opponent using Perish Song and then stalling you out will take care of half of your team at minimal risk to the opponent, putting you in a really bad position.
  • While in a hypothetical sense, attacks can do this too, Perish Trap is much harder to safeguard against. When it comes to dealing with attacks, one has Protect/Detect, Wide Guard, Quick Guard, Rage Powder/Follow Me, and straight up switching, to name a few things, so a good team typically has many options to deal with attacks. However, dealing with Perish Trap is much harder, as it is a strategy that actively discourages interaction with the opponent (Perish Trap > Protect, switch). The only way to really answer it is to bring a Soundproof Pokemon, an Imprison Pokemon, or a Taunter, which aren't really effective options (and Taunt fails entirely if your Taunter isn't in at the time or if the opponent just puts Perish Song on something that doesn't usually carry it, so you don't think to Taunt it). These options will lead to you having a much less effective team though (with the exception of Taunt).
  • One of the main flaws of Perish Trap in Doubles is that you could just use offensive pressure to prevent being set up on by playing carefully with support Pokemon. However, in Triples one could just hide their Perish Song user in a corner where they'll be safe from your most threatening Pokemon. Pairing it with an effective support mon can ensure that they get Perish Trap off very successfully and wreak havok on your team.
  • It's an uncompetitive strategy in that it seeks to avoid interaction with the opponent whenever possible, making the game much more about your matchup than one that involves much skill.
These in conjunction with the arguments already suggested give some pretty good reasons as to why a metagame without Perish Trap would be preferable to a metagame with it.
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I would write more but I've given up the argument. I see that I clearly can't change anyones mind, I'm not wasting more time on it.
 
I wuv you said:
I would write more but I've given up the argument. I see that I clearly can't change anyones mind, I'm not wasting more time on it.
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You never made a concise post about how it isn't broken. You had no facts on the matter beyond "I've played against it, and it sucks". I've never played the triples ladder (and I really should start actually), but given the copious amounts of good arguments I've seen, I know that Perish Song is quite broken.

I may have thought (or think) otherwise if you could write an argument; I'm genuinely curious as to why you think this.

EDIT: I reread the previous page and I see now. Long story short, it's not broken because:

- Spread moves can achieve a six-turn victory as well, or even fewer.
- You can beat Perish Trap by winning on turn six, or before.
- I can't recall if there are more good arguments but I'm on my phone and have to go.
 
My experience in triple battles is 1900's+ every season for the last 8 months on world battle spot, clocking up almost 2000 battles in triples and almost the same for showdown. I was rank 1 on the last x and y battle spot triples before it reset with a 91.9 GXE, Glicko +1 of 1960 at 1650 rating. I am also currently rank 1 on Smogon triples and 2nd to a perish team on battle spot triples.

My first Rank 1 was achieved with a Talonflame/meowstic/Mega Gardevoir/Hitmontop/Togekiss/Heatran. I used this team for at least 6 months on 3DS battle spot for a 1900+ rating. Then I slightly changed my team to counter rain teams by replacing the Talonflame for a whimsy with sunny day and tailwind. Then just a couple of weeks ago after my first rank 1 on pokemon showdown I swapped out the Togekiss for a terrakion which did help me get that massive Glicko of 1960..

My point is that I have a lot of experience when it comes to triple battles and although I have not experienced many personal team changed I have played against it all and my team was built to counter it all..

Meowstic has safeguard and imprison, quickguard and trick room to counter trick room teams, Dark void, priority, tailwind.. My Whimsicott sets up my team with my own it's own tailwind/sunny day for Heatran and obviously now beat up for Terrakion.. My meowstic, Gardevoir and Hitmontop counter or at least give me a high % chance of beating other Terrakion+beat up teams. Even though I did love my Bold Togekiss with follow me, I now do find it a lot easier to beat perish song teams with Terrakion.

However! My latest experiences against Linkes Auge's perish Trap team have been very disheartening.. Ludicolo/Mega Genger/Politoed are always the opening trio.. Ludicolo can either fake out or hydro pump for serious damage on Terrakion or Gardevoir, Genger can protect/disable or perish song if a protect/tailwind is predicted. Politoed can encore a tailwind or sunnyday, or taunt a trick room, it will normally survive a +6 rockslide to perish song if needed and you get the picture..

I am still currently working on a strategy to beat perish trap as I do love the challenge but it delaying my push for top 5 world on the triples 3DS battle spot. I know Smogon rules only apply to Smogon triples but I would rather find a way to beat it then ban it..
 
I've been testing this out, so

Shuckle@Leftovers
Sturdy
-Acupressure
-Toxic
-Sticky Web
-Stealth Rock

Gliscor@Toxic Orb
Poison Heal
-Rock Slide
-Protect
-Cross Poison/Poison Jab
-Swords Dance

Deoxys-A@Life Orb
Pressure
-Extreme Speed
-Knock Off
-Aerial Ace
-Brick Break

Shuckle should be on the left, Gliscor in mid, and Deoxys on right. I know this doesn't contribute to the argument, but this trio has been working pretty well for me. Most of the time, people start with a focus on Deoxys, and that gives Shuckle a free turn to set up sticky web, and at that point, they expect a switch. If Deoxys is still alive, people continue to focus on that, giving Gliscor a swords dance if that hasn't already been done, and stealth rocks. After that, Deoxys is nearly always dead because it's pretty frail. A solid replacement is Ferrothorn, since it is a big threat and generally forces a switch. Shuckle can survive basically everything, and so will be able to get a few Acupressures onto Gliscor, who now has some random stat boosts. Shuckle should start either using acupressure on itself, or using toxic liberally. After that, just use rock slide on everything available. An excellent counter is anything with foul play.
 
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Here's a cool core: garchomp, skarmory, and mega gengar. The concept behind the core is simple. Skarmory goes in the middle and is immune to both gengar and garchomp's spread moves; earthquake and sludge wave. Furthermore, this leaves skarmory the opportunity to use tailwind and double the speed of the attackers. Should the opposing team just so happen to carry trick room in a feeble attempt to negate any offensive pressure, skarmory will have the ever-so-nifty taunt to make sure that trick room wont happen.
sharknado (Garchomp) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Protect

bird hype (Skarmory) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Tailwind
- Taunt
- Brave Bird
- Protect

spoopy (Gengar) @ Gengarite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sludge Wave
- Shadow Ball
- Protect
- Dazzling Gleam
 
xzern said:
Here's a cool core: garchomp, skarmory, and mega gengar. The concept behind the core is simple. Skarmory goes in the middle and is immune to both gengar and garchomp's spread moves; earthquake and sludge wave. Furthermore, this leaves skarmory the opportunity to use tailwind and double the speed of the attackers. Should the opposing team just so happen to carry trick room in a feeble attempt to negate any offensive pressure, skarmory will have the ever-so-nifty taunt to make sure that trick room wont happen.​
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Really interesting core and looks pretty fun. Never seen skarm used much outside of singles so that's cool.
I feel like will-o would be a better move for gengar over gleam though.
 
I know I haven't played Pokémon in a few months but my last experiences with Perish Trap are just problematic. It really is an evil strategy. I don't know if I can call it OP, because I have defeated some Perish Trap teams (Feint is a useful move), but sometimes there really is nothing you can do. It's kind of a hard issue.

Teams can be really, really good but succomb to a Perish Trap strategy almost immediately.
What does this mean? Should everybody prepare for Perish Trap? Will we have to rely on the unexisting Feint + Scrappy combo (that would be nice)? Or should we treat Perish Trap and non-Perish trap as two separate things? I don't know. It's kind of like Dark Void. Two of the biggest problems in triples right there, and many times they're used together. Even I don't really know what to think about them.

Also Taunt is unreliable when Aromatisse exists. Taunt is NEVER the way to go when you want to stop Trick Room. Aroma Veil is too beautiful.
 
I know it's not really too appropriate to ask this, but since triples isn't very popular at all I thought I'd come here. Could any good triples players check out my RMT and give some input? Thanks.
 
Emerald Master said:
I only see it being used if you're using it adjacent to a friendly heatran, which would open you up to earthquakes
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Exactly, and lando-t is one of the most prevalent mons in the format. You'd also have to be next to heatran for it to be useful so if at any point in the match you're not beside heatran it's almost a waste of a moveslot. Searing Shot is really different from EQ in that it's hard to find mons with immunities to it that don't stack weaknesses.
 
I can't say much about Searing Shot; it's not as though it existed on Battle Spot. Even then, with pokes like Victini, I still can't imagine it being very useful. Move on to something else.
 
Could PerishTrap be countered simply by using Pokemon with Volt Switch, U-Turn, and Ghost types, who are immune to shadow tag?
 
Kind of but not entirely. The problem is that you'll still have a hard time dealing enough damage to them since they usually find some way to regain it back. Then, from that point, you eventually get worn down because they may carry something like toxic, and by the point that you've only got 3 of your own left, they'll use Perish Song and get you killed since they'll most likely have the slowest poke.
So sort of, but it's not as though carrying those will make Perish Trap teams impossible to work. Once it gets down to the last 3, it's pretty much all over.
 
The real problem with Volt Switch/U-Turn is you have to correctly guess their Perish Song user -who will probably be in a corner anyway- and/or get lucky with their Protects not going off. (And if you're having everything target a different Pokemon to switch, then there's almost no chance they'll all escape, while if they're targeting the same guy, you have to get lucky)
 
Ghoul King said:
The real problem with Volt Switch/U-Turn is you have to correctly guess their Perish Song user -who will probably be in a corner anyway- and/or get lucky with their Protects not going off. (And if you're having everything target a different Pokemon to switch, then there's almost no chance they'll all escape, while if they're targeting the same guy, you have to get lucky)
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You don't need to guess who the perish song user is. You just need to guess which mon isn't going to be protecting which can sometimes be easy because of the way protect works in consecutive turns.

This isn't an amazing counter to perish trap though imo. It's still really powerful and having maybe two voltturn mons on your team isn't going to help all of your team from perish trap. It can slow the strat down and get you the win on occasion but most good perish trap teams can play around it.
 
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You do have to correctly guess their Perish Song user is. They can and will have multiple possible users on the field at the same time. If you guess wrong, Volt Switch/U-Turn doesn't help any. Regardless my point was just that this means that adding the moves and using them won't even necessarily let you break loose from Perish Trap, when using them to escape would be the whole point. A better answer is Roar/Whirlwind, which bypass Protect and can be used to force out the trapper, at which point you're free to switch if they didn't luck into a different trapper being forced in.
 
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