Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Leo]

Yeah Kyurem is def an underrated threat and while not as good as it was in ORAS cause there are way more Ice resists in the tier rn I think it's definitely better than some of the C shitmons such as Whimsi and Tenta/Mandi. While not as threatening as Kyube it's still able to mess up teams that rely on cores like PexZor or TangZorZyg as their def backbone. It also enjoys the rise of bulky grass types aka Tangrowth and kinda Ferro and Spikes really help it wear down mons

 

[Toshiro46]

Not to be nitpicky, but in your post you calc'd the ORAS 184 Calm Clef. Max Bold doesn't lose to Coil Zygarde if healthy at all, even if it's at +2 (max 51%), which is what MG Clef should be running, especially since you didn't take Clef softboiling into account.

Also, why are Terrak and Ttar on the same rank? Every mon in S/A takes neutral damage from Terrak's stabs, and it also has more sets (Rockium Z, Scarf, Band) that it can run, whereas Ttar only runs band. Pursuit isn't hitting as many things as it was in ORAS anyway and Phero being gone is awesome for Terrak too.

I was using the OU Utility set on the calculator, which is on Clef's SuMo page. But yeah, if you're running CM Clef with the 252/252 Bold, then it's definitely a solid check to SubCoil* Zygarde, because +2 Zygarde can't 2HKO it at full health due to leftovers.

Scarf is Terrak's only commonly used set rn, the others are usually performed better by one mon or another. Afaik, Scarf is the main reason it's as high as it is, since a high scarf speed tier and rock STAB means it can stop volcarona in its tracks.

* Edited in SubCoil

 

[Seth_]

This is not exactly counterargument against kyurem rise, more like side note.

Kyurem, as well as many other wallbreakers are cool but all of them have one common problem. Despite they are working fine, they are terribly, terribly outclassed by top threaths: Z-SD chomp n' lando, specs gar n' lele (manaphy is inferior to all of them). First two are competing for name of best set up wallbreaker, secon two are competing for name of best choice locked wallbreaker. All of them have no real switch ins (technically you can switch chansey into gengar, but gengar can run trick in order to improve matchup against stall). They completely devour any kind of bulky core.

Despite some mons like kyurem and crawdaunt are cool and I would like to see them rise as it happend in ORAS but i don't think that this will happen as long as this big 4 is in tier.

btw. rise rachi

 

[Lazyboy0337]

----> C++++

With Pheromosa being Banned, Tapu Fini falling off quite a bit, and the fact that Tapu Koko and Greninja are everywhere now makes Kyurem better then ever before. Dragon/Ice typing isn't the best defensively but still allows it to come into Tapu Koko, Protean Greninja, Rotom-Wash, and Mega Vena while still allowing it to hard check nearly every single bulky water,grass, and ground type in OU bar Tapu Fini is great, and not being major pursuit targets for everything with pursuit like Latios and not being awful like Hydreigon makes it worthy for something higher then what Magneton is ranked in. It has almost 0 switch ins in all of OU and hits even resists stupidly hard with its STAB or passable coverage options in the form of Earth Power/Focus Blast/ Hidden Power Fire and even roosts to switch into the aforementioned mons consistently, while having enough bulk to swallow things like Scarf Keldeo's Secret Sword, Magearna's flash cannon, and even a chance to 81.2% to tank Tapu Lele's moonblast allow it to easily muscle through bulkier builds that become slightly better upon Pheromosa's absence.

Offensive Calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 214-252 (70.3 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 180-214 (59.8 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 232 HP / 80 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 176-210 (49 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 320-378 (79.2 - 93.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 348-409 (107.7 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 195-231 (69.3 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defensive Calcs

(Super Effective Hits)

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 302-356 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 288-338 (73.6 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 216-254 (55.2 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 338-402 (86.4 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

(Resisted Hits)

252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem in Electric Terrain: 117-138 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- 20.7% chance to 3HKO

4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 175-208 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 67-80 (17.1 - 20.4%) -- possible 5HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 161-190 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Kyurem-B does everything you just posted and more. Pokemon are rated on individual merit, but every single one of those calcs and role as a Dragon/Ice is done by Kyurem-B better due to being less predictable, Teravolt and 10 more Defense at the cost of 10 special attack (which doesn't change any of the offensive calcs). The only niche Kyurem has over Kyurem-B is Pressure to better use a SubRoost set.

 

[Leo]

This is not exactly counterargument against kyurem rise, more like side note.

Kyurem, as well as many other wallbreakers are cool but all of them have one common problem. Despite they are working fine, they are terribly, terribly outclassed by top threaths: Z-SD chomp n' lando, specs gar n' lele (manaphy is inferior to all of them). First two are competing for name of best set up wallbreaker, secon two are competing for name of best choice locked wallbreaker. All of them have no real switch ins (technically you can switch chansey into gengar, but gengar can run trick in order to improve matchup against stall). They completely devour any kind of bulky core.

Despite some mons like kyurem and crawdaunt are cool and I would like to see them rise as it happend in ORAS but i don't think that this will happen as long as this big 4 is in tier.

btw. rise rachi

How is Kyurem outclassed by SD Lando and Chomp lol what. It's pretty clear they have different roles so I don't think there's much to explain needed. On the other side Specs Gengar and Lele don't outclass it either or at least not the way you claim them to do. One of the biggest perks it has as a breaker is its superior bulk making it harder to rkill whereas Lele and Gengar fall prey to common rkiller in the tier such as most scarfers Metagross Ash ninja etc. Of course it's not a top tier mon but I think it's better than the lower ranking mons

Kyurem-B does everything you just posted and more. Pokemon are rated on individual merit, but every single one of those calcs and role as a Dragon/Ice is done by Kyurem-B better due to being less predictable, Teravolt and 10 more Defense at the cost of 10 special attack (which doesn't change any of the offensive calcs). The only niche Kyurem has over Kyurem-B is Pressure to better use a SubRoost set.

Well Specs Kyube kinda has the surprise factor but it loses 10 Base SpAtk so it can't 2hko Clef Ferro and M-Venu anymore which is why Kyurem got some hype late ORAS. Clef isn't as prominent as it was in ORAS but I still see no reason to sacrifice damage for 10 Base Defense and "surprise factor". Mixed Kyube still gives Kyurem competition imo but Specs is kinda outdone by regular Kyurem idk if I'm missing something

 

[Seth_]

Don't try to wall greninja with kyurem. It's gonna be dissapointing. You want to break walls with it, deal damage. Garchomp has both more speed and better option to hit it.

I get your point that kyurem can take ONE hit and OHKO back. However this is nonsense. When you are teambilding and your answer to ie. greninja is keeping kyurem at 100% (sr weak mon, good luck) briniging it on free switch and then deal damage you fucked up. That's nonsense, that's never gonna work.

So yeah, in the end kyurem's superior work is very minor thing. It will come in play , I'd say once per 20 games, maybe even rarer. For wallbreaker you wanna mainly deal damage, and all these mons are the best at it.

 

[Leo]

Don't try to wall greninja with kyurem. It's gonna be dissapointing. You want to break walls with it, deal damage. Garchomp has both more speed and better option to hit it.

I get your point that kyurem can take ONE hit and OHKO back. However this is nonsense. When you are teambilding and your answer to ie. greninja is keeping kyurem at 100% (sr weak mon, good luck) briniging it on free switch and then deal damage you fucked up. That's nonsense, that's never gonna work.

So yeah, in the end kyurem's superior work is very minor thing. It will come in play , I'd say once per 20 games, maybe even rarer. For wallbreaker you wanna mainly deal damage, and all these mons are the best at it.

I never said Kyurem is supposed to switch into mons or be the Greninja counter lol I just said it's less prone to being rkilled by everything with its modest bulk which makes it more annoying for Offense to deal with

 

[mdvd]

C- --> B-

Hydreigon is way too underrated right now. I've been trying out Hydreigon since Phero got suspected and banned and it's viability has surprised me. Right now it sits in a tier with things like Decidueye, Cofagrigus.. who really aren't viable imo. I think Hydreigon is a good scarfer and wallbreaker right now , while it's speed isn't the best it just outspeeds important things in the meta like Lele, Landorus, Zygarde, Kyurem-Black. While there are many fairies right now they all (besides fini) get ohko'd or 2 hit ko'd by one of Hydreigon covarage moves Mimikyu and Lele aren't even dark resists while Koko and Bulu almost never carry fairy stab. Hydreigon's typing paired with levitate and good bulk + roost make it a good switch in into things like A-Marowak, not transformed A-Greninja that doesn't carry ice beam. It's also one of the few ghost resists and it has decent bulk and roost. Levitate also really helps it right now with not many hazard removal and the popularity from spikes. What does it have over Latios? While Hydreigon is slower, it has way way better covarage options fire blast, eart power, focus blast/superpower, flash cannon making it a big threat against more balanced teams. And psychic/dragon type also isn't really good in the current heavy steel meta. Hydreigon also synergises well with many top tier mons like Metagross, Toxapex.. Acces to u-turn makes it also a good volt-turn partner. C- to B- may seem a bit overwhelming because it's a whole rank but i think Hydreigon can defenitly be seen as viable as things like Nidoking, Gyarados mega etc. I don't see Hydreigon as a niche mon like the other mons in C rank. And while i think specs (the only set on the smogon page) isn't necessarely bad i think scarf or Life orb 3 attacks + roost/taunt are much better right now. And sorry for my bad English grammar.

 

[Seth_]

Nonsense. Calcs or didn't matter.

Kyurem is actually less bulky than many other mons because of rock weakness. This meta lacks any reliable hazard removers so it is safe to assume that rocks are always up.

 

[Virizain]

Don't try to wall greninja with kyurem. It's gonna be dissapointing. You want to break walls with it, deal damage. Garchomp has both more speed and better option to hit it.

I get your point that kyurem can take ONE hit and OHKO back. However this is nonsense. When you are teambilding and your answer to ie. greninja is keeping kyurem at 100% (sr weak mon, good luck) briniging it on free switch and then deal damage you fucked up. That's nonsense, that's never gonna work.

So yeah, in the end kyurem's superior work is very minor thing. It will come in play , I'd say once per 20 games, maybe even rarer. For wallbreaker you wanna mainly deal damage, and all these mons are the best at it.

How many times have you actually used Kyurem, to say that it only comes in once every twenty games? Its great natural bulk and decent defensive typing give it plenty opportunities to switch in onto the aforementioned mons like Tapu Koko, Greninja, Rotom-Wash, Tangrowth, Mega Venusaur, Choice Locked Keldeo, Manaphy, and Zapdos. There is no nonsense in the fact that it always 1v1 Standard Proten greninja, even being able to hard switch into it and either force it out or threaten it for an OHKO, and nobody ever said that Kyurem is supposed to wall anything, much less a Greninja.

So yeah, in the end kyurem's superior work is very minor thing. It will come in play , I'd say once per 20 games, maybe even rarer. For wallbreaker you wanna mainly deal damage, and all these mons are the best at it.

Now you are really underestimating Kyurem's offensive presence in almost every way. When equipped with choice specs, its hard enough to OHKO nearly everything in front of it, including things that would fall under your category such as Mega Mawile and Rotom-Wash, making it nearly impossible to switch into it since its only reliable switch ins ( two of them in all of OU) are getting rarer by the day.

Nonsense. Calcs or didn't matter.

Kyurem is actually less bulky than many other mons because of rock weakness. This meta lacks any reliable hazard removers so it is safe to assume that rocks are always up.

Kyurem is single-handedly one of the bulkiest wallbreakers in OU by far, shrugging of resisted hits like nobody's business and going on to take most super effective hits that would have decimated other wallbreakers who can't hope to claim the same feat. Unlike wallbreakers such as Hoopa-Unbound and Tapu Lele, Kyurem has a passable defensive typing and has multiple opportunities to switch into all the grass, water, and electric types in the tier, chief of which are Tapu Koko, Greninja, and Mega Venusaur which I have mentioned a one a too many times.

tldr :

---> C+

 

[Toshiro46]

The only real reason to run Kyurem over Kyube is the extra SpA, and that's little enough. The cool thing about Kyube is that it gets bolt strike for mixed beambolt coverage (which is just amazing) and can fire off obscenely powerful outrages.

I'd be ok with a rise to C+ because being a mostly less effective wallbreaker than the already lackluster Kyube isn't great, but neither are the C+ mons. It does Specs Ice/Dragon/Ground coverage better than any other poke not named Kyurem-White, I'll give it that.

Edit: I like the change to the banner! Including both Grens is lol

 

[FatBagel]

I'm not the greatest player, only around 1400 ELO, so take what I say with a pinch of salt etc. but I think Volcanion could and should move up to B.

I'm running AV and it checks (I think) all Greninja sets, and there's very little that can switch into it. I use it to come in on Heatran, but it easily switches in on Scizor, Gengar, Charizard-Y, Tapu Fini/Bulu and a few others. Steam Eruption is a fantastic move and Fire Blast gives it some great coverage. Obviously it needs Rapid Spin/Defog support, which stops it going any higher right now, but it's a really solid 'mon at the moment.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

With Pheromosa gone, do you think that makes Kartana any more viable? It lost some competition as a fast wallbreaker, and even though its attacks are fairly weak that insane Attack stat makes up for it. After a Swords Dance it can shred slower teams with ease - off the top of my head I can't name anything in OU that resists Grass / Steel / Fighting. Fightinium Z Sacred Sword lets it beat Skarmory.

+2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 277-327 (82.9 - 97.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[UltraBallz]

With Pheromosa gone, do you think that makes Kartana any more viable? It lost some competition as a fast wallbreaker, and even though its attacks are fairly weak that insane Attack stat makes up for it. After a Swords Dance it can shred slower teams with ease - off the top of my head I can't name anything in OU that resists Grass / Steel / Fighting. Fightinium Z Sacred Sword lets it beat Skarmory.

+2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 277-327 (82.9 - 97.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

First to your point, Zapdos is a pokemon in OU that resists all three attacks and is probably the best kartana check. Volcarona, Alola Wak, and Zard Y also do.

Aside from that, I'd be against a Kartana rise. While it does do well against fatter teams against any other playstyle it is very lackluster due to it's slightly underwhelming speed tier (obviously its good but there are so many threatening special attackers faster than it that threaten an OHKO) and its horrible sp def that makes it fold to even resisted hits from things like koko. this means that unless you are running the really bad timid set to get a speed boost your opponent can just sack something or get a slow u turn from defensive landorus and then kill it. And usually kartana doesn't have that many opportunities to come in and set up.

And then even against fatter teams, Zapdos is becoming more and more common and you aren't breaking through shit as long as the opponent is smart enough to keep their Zap healthy. But I do agree of course kartana has it's niche against these fatter teams just in my opinion it isn't good enough to warrant a rise.

 

[Toshiro46]

May All Your Clefables Burn To a Crisp

----> C++++

With Pheromosa being Banned, Tapu Fini falling off quite a bit, and the fact that Tapu Koko and Greninja are everywhere now makes Kyurem better then ever before. Dragon/Ice typing isn't the best defensively but still allows it to come into Tapu Koko, Protean Greninja, Rotom-Wash, and Mega Vena while still allowing it to hard check nearly every single bulky water,grass, and ground type in OU bar Tapu Fini is great, and not being major pursuit targets for everything with pursuit like Latios and not being awful like Hydreigon makes it worthy for something higher then what Magneton is ranked in. It has almost 0 switch ins in all of OU and hits even resists stupidly hard with its STAB or passable coverage options in the form of Earth Power/Focus Blast/ Hidden Power Fire and even roosts to switch into the aforementioned mons consistently, while having enough bulk to swallow things like Scarf Keldeo's Secret Sword, Magearna's flash cannon, and even a chance to 81.2% to tank Tapu Lele's moonblast allow it to easily muscle through bulkier builds that become slightly better upon Pheromosa's absence.

Offensive Calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 214-252 (70.3 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 180-214 (59.8 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 232 HP / 80 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 176-210 (49 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 320-378 (79.2 - 93.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 348-409 (107.7 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 195-231 (69.3 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defensive Calcs

(Super Effective Hits)

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 302-356 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 288-338 (73.6 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 216-254 (55.2 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 338-402 (86.4 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

(Resisted Hits)

252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem in Electric Terrain: 117-138 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- 20.7% chance to 3HKO

4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 175-208 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 67-80 (17.1 - 20.4%) -- possible 5HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 161-190 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Because Kyurem is a rocks-weak mon, every one of the super effective defensive calcs bar fini's becomes a OHKO after rocks, and fini (a mon that walls specs kyurem besides, but doesn't wall kyube cause bolt strike) is not even known for its SpA yet still easily gets a guaranteed 2HKO. Also if Magearna just uses Fleur Cannon it's a guaranteed OHKO so.

As for the resisted hits, well poison isn't even resisted by ice/dragon so idk why gunk shot gren is there, and Rotom-W is hardly known for incredible SpA yet still takes a 5th off of the (once again) rocks weak mon. And cool, after rocks Kyurem is a guaranteed 2HKO to Steam Eruption, so it can't switch in at all.

As for your offensive calcs... Kyurem can't OHKO physically defensive Toxapex even after rocks, which is a point against it. Most Magearnas are AV now, which means it has a chance to not even 2HKO them and still gets OHKOed in turn by Fleur Cannon. I don't know why you use HP Fire for your megagross calc when earth power does more, and all this means is Megagross has to be wary about switching in to Kyurem, but it still wins a 1v1 anyway every time.

The only thing you lose offensively in these calcs from running Kyube over Kyurem is the slim chance to OHKO Megagross and non-AV Magearna and the chance to 2HKO AV Magearna (Oh wait Bolt Strike can 2HKO Magearna), and in return fusion bolt guarantees the KO on Keldeo and has a chance (an almost guaranteed one after rocks) to OHKO Lele. Oh and because Kyube has Teravolt it does way more with ice beam on Mega-Venu than Kyurem does.

Basically these aren't great calcs. There may be relevant ones out there showing that Kyurem actually picks up KOs that Kyurem-B doesn't (and I was just using the mixed wallbreaker set to compare with Kyurem, if you compared with a specs set you'd find Kyube performs great with earth power and ice beam because teravolt means Rotom W and Mega Venu are destroyed), but you haven't provided them.

 

[TekTek]

I don't know what you guys think about that ; but i really feel like Rotom-W is underestimated right now.

Rotom-W B+ -> A~ : This thing checks the 3 most used mons (Landorus-T offensive variantes get OHKO by Pump, Fini can't handle volt-switch and MMetagross fear wisp and can hardly hit it with the usual Ice punch/Meteor Mash combination), threaten most of volt-turn response (ground type, A-marowak) bar Zygarde/Chomp both who can't switch in freely due to wisp. It also is capable of threatening Keldeo and Greninja's choice sets.

Double-dance Lando can't OHKO it even with rockium-Z before +2 and is heavily it in return
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Rotom-Wash: 90-107 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 296-350 (92.7 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Metagross needs zen-heabutt, or
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Rotom-Wash: 80-95 (26.4 - 31.3%) -- 24.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
(I don't mention ice punch or meteor mash for obvious reasons)

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Rotom-Wash: 127-151 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
even then, rotom can switch in and burn.

Fini is checked
0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 20 SpD Rotom-Wash: 91-108 (30 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Same thing for A-Marowak who straight up die and can't 2HKO that easily w/o rocks
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Rotom-Wash: 153-180 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marowak-Alola: 296-350 (113.4 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Spec ash-greninja locked on anything but dark pulse or scarf Keldeo are forced out
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 20 SpD Rotom-Wash: 140-165 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Rotom-Wash: 96-114 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I really think this mon can destroy teams that aren't prepared to it, and thus might be ranked at least in the A-tiers. Is it only me not good enough to play around it, or is this thing a real potential threat lurking under the radar ? I understand that some things like Zygarde can really blocks it, but it still take a chunk from pump (from 36 to 41% on DD offensive) and has to play around wisp. And it do have obvious counters (Tangrowth first), so it can't really reach to high either.

 

[Gary]

Remember that we don't need to bold every calc or statement. It doesn't really help your argument at all it kind of just discourages people from reading it because it's a bit annoying. Half the time the stuff you guys choose to bold just doesn't make sense.

 

[Toshiro46]

Problem with all those calcs is that every time Rotom-W switches into basically any of those threats (bar a lando T EQ or something), it's losing near half its health, which is a big deal when it only has leftovers for recovery. Whereas something like Tangrowth has Regenerator, so it can consistently throughout the match switch in and out to sponge hits and regain momentum. In terms of its role as a defensive pivot, it's really outshone by av tangrowth.

 

[TekTek]

That's why I put calcs from metagross/lando : it only takes something like 35% from those hits and always threaten in return because of wisp/pump, forcing a switch and regaining 2 times of leftovers in the meantime (or gaining momentum from volt switch). It is true tho for Keldeo/Gren that's why I only mentionned that it can forces them out while running a bold defensive set. I feel that the offensive presence of such a bulky pokemon has to be taken in consideration ; and I agree that Tangrowth is a better defensive switch in (but lack the active pivot utility).

Maybe this is totally irrelevant and Rotom is well placed, just wanted to point this mon out.

 

[Toshiro46]

Tangrowth has just as much if not more offensive presence, since it has a higher base special attack and can also hit from the physical side as well; though, you're right, it does lack the actual pivot move that Rotom has in volt switch.

 

[Virizain]

Because Kyurem is a rocks-weak mon, every one of the super effective defensive calcs bar fini's becomes a OHKO after rocks, and fini (a mon that walls specs kyurem besides, but doesn't wall kyube cause bolt strike) is not even known for its SpA yet still easily gets a guaranteed 2HKO. Also if Magearna just uses Fleur Cannon it's a guaranteed OHKO so.

As for the resisted hits, well poison isn't even resisted by ice/dragon so idk why gunk shot gren is there, and Rotom-W is hardly known for incredible SpA yet still takes a 5th off of the (once again) rocks weak mon. And cool, after rocks Kyurem is a guaranteed 2HKO to Steam Eruption, so it can't switch in at all.

Stealth Rocks is actually a lot easier to remove with Pheromosa being gone, as it brings the rise of a whole new handful of hazard removers into viability such Starmie, Lati@s, and Excadrill, and we still have our old ones in Tapu Fini, Mega Scizor, Mega Sableye, Skarmory, and even Zapdos, so I don't know how you can *safely assume* that Stealth Rocks are always up, because to put it bluntly there not. This is exculding the fact that Kyurem can OHKO nearly every user of Stealth Rocks if they try to set it up in Kyurem's face, so even if they do manage to get up rocks, it will be their only time doing so, meaning that all your "after rocks, after rocks" are almost completely irreverent, scince hazard control is still plentiful, and you'd better have it if you want to use Kyurem.

As for your offensive calcs... Kyurem can't OHKO physically defensive Toxapex even after rocks, which is a point against it

This is ridiculous. Even if Kyurem can't cleanly OHKO toxapex, what will Toxapex do back, OHKO? Kyurem takes 0 from scald and shrugs of scald burns like nobody's business and still does ~90% to Toxapex with earth power, meaning that it has limitless switch in opportunities into Toxapex and will always beat it, period.

The only thing you lose offensively in these calcs from running Kyube over Kyurem is the slim chance to OHKO Megagross and non-AV Magearna and the chance to 2HKO AV Magearna (Oh wait Bolt Strike can 2HKO Magearna), and in return fusion bolt guarantees the KO on Keldeo and has a chance (an almost guaranteed one after rocks) to OHKO Lele. Oh and because Kyube has Teravolt it does way more with ice beam on Mega-Venu than Kyurem does

Kyurem can still OHKO Rotom-Wash with Draco Metoer and still 2HKO Mega Venasur with ice beam, just like Kyurem Black, so this point is just redundant. Draco Metoer also OHKOes Keldeo and Specs Flash Cannon OHKOes Lele as well, leaving aside the note that it does nearly ~99% with ice beam after stealth rocks damage, and can still 2HKO Assualt Vest Magearna with Earth Power, meaning that all of these *niches* Kyurem Black has over aren't niches at all. So I don't see anything wrong with my calcs, they are perfectly fine as is.

 

[Gary]

Actually no, Stealth Rock is not easier to remove with Pheromosa gone. In fact, hazards are low key busted right now because OU just lost its best hazard remover that was spashable on all kinds of offensive teams, and what were left with is a cesspool of shit removers that aren't very splashable. All of the removers you mentioned weren't less viable because of Mosa, they were just shit in general, with the exception of Mega Sableye because that's only used on stall and doesn't remove hazards itself, merely acts as a deterrent. The Lati twins were always bad hazard removers, especially in a metagame where coverage is absolutely needed to make them viable in general otherwise they just let some of the best Pokemon in the tier in for free. Starmie got better simply because now offense is forced to run it as a spinner, or else they have to use passive shit such as Fini which is easy to wear down and sucks all momentum from you. Excadrils Speed tier is ass and it's not bulky enough to take on some of the Pokemon it wants to such as Lele and Mega Mawile, so you are basically forced into running Scarf or Sash Lead which loses to the best rocker in the tier, RH Lando. Skarmory's viability hasn't changed at all because it was always used on fat balance or stall teams, and Zapdos is a really mediocre Defogger that prefers to run coverage to actually do something instead of sit there and let stuff like Ferro and or Lando/Zyg in for free. Mega Scizor is basically it when it comes to reliable hazard control outside of stall these days, and that thing is also passive as fuck.

Doesn't help that Greninja beats/heavily pressures basically every remover in the tier as well, and is one of the best spikers, so you have that to worry about too. So yeah, Pheromosa gone actually forces you to run shitty removers to support Pokemon such as Mega Pinsir, Zard-Y, Volcarona, and Kyurem, so they actually have more of an opportunity cost with Mosa gone, especially Pokemon like Pinsir that appreciate being on offensive oriented teams. That would mean that by your logic, Kyurem would be worse because it now has a higher opportunity cost due to it having to fall back on shitty removal.

 

[The Swan]

I'd like to make a nomination, and that is for Magnezone to go from A- to A. Magnezone's greatest niche lies in its high Special Attack, coupled with Magnet Pull. This means that most Steel types can be neutralized by Magnezone, and yet many things that Magnezone directly counters have higher viability than it. Listed below are just a few calcs for what Magnezone can do to Pokemon higher on the viability ladder than it.

• 252 SpA Magnezone Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 204-240 (57.9 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 216-254 (71 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
• 252 SpA Magnezone Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Scizor: 272-320 (79.3 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 210-248 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(Oh, and it also kicks Kartana's scrawny ass with HP Fire, but I digress.)
Now, many of those seem like rather strange calcs to bring up. After all, Scizor has U-Turn, right? Well, as accurate as that is, Magnezone still outspeeds Scizor, so you're going to be taking a pretty massive chunk out of Scizor's health no matter what. As for the Celesteela set used, that is the bulkiest Special Defensive one there is, and the most it can do is Flamethrower Magnezone for a 2HKO, but Magnezone outspeeds, so it still wins. Oh, and just for reference, these are all calculations where Magnezone has Choice Scarf, the one often viewed as the less viable option. You know what Magnezone happens to outspeed with Choice Scarf? Keldeo, the Pokemon often considered a premier OU threat.

• 252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 320-380 (99 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

And if you're feeling particularly dangerous, you can run HP Ice with Choice Scarf and kill some offensive Landorus sets, such as this popular set that carries Stealth Rocks.

• 252 SpA Magnezone Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 316-376 (99 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Hell, the guy even beats certain Mega Mawile sets one on one, even though I could've sworn the dude was banished to Ubers. But since it is currently on this viability ladder, I'm still including it.

• 252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 154-183 (63.6 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Just in case anyone was wondering, Mega Mawile with maximum investment in Attack only does 49.1% with max damage on Sucker Punch.)
Now, I know that a Pokemon can't be bumped up in a ladder simply because it does well against certain threats above it, but Magnezone was built with the purpose of countering some of these guys, so it seems unfair not to include him alongside them. Not only that, but top tier threats are Pokemon that you NEED to have a counter for in order to succeed, and Magnezone counters a surprising number of them, which is, well, exactly what should make a Pokemon have importance within their tier.
So there you go. Thanks for taking the time to read this, and I hope that I could at least bring some attention to this topic. Cheers. :)

 

[readytolose]

snip

The fact that Magnezone counters things that are a higher viability than it isn't a justification for it moving up in the rankings, just look at Bronzong, whose main niche is checking top tier threats like Lando and Metagross. Magnezone is really solid right now but I don't think you get why it's good. For starters Scarf Magnezone isn't considered very viable since it's outsped by a lot of common threats like Greninja, Tapu Koko, and Dugtrio and doesn't actually improve its matchup against offense all that much. HP Ice is a no-no too because the main reason for using Magnezone is to remove Steel-types like Ferrothorn and Scizor to give teammates more wiggle room.

That being said Magnezone is good because it can check a handful of things with Assault Vest, and it deals with Ferrothorn, Celesteela and Mega Scizor which are quite good right now. Ferrothorn has become a god since Spikes are so good, so Magnezone has been pulling its weight for me. It has a bit of flexibility so it can run Specs, or even meme Sub sets. Scarf is still usable but doesn't hold up well in practice. I've been using it to good effect right now but I don't know if I could justify a rise or a drop personally.

Also your Mawile calc is wrong. 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 128-151 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO

 

[The Swan]

The fact that Magnezone counters things that are a higher viability than it isn't a justification for it moving up in the rankings, just look at Bronzong, whose main niche is checking top tier threats like Lando and Metagross. Magnezone is really solid right now but I don't think you get why it's good. For starters Scarf Magnezone isn't considered very viable since it's outsped by a lot of common threats like Greninja, Tapu Koko, and Dugtrio and doesn't actually improve its matchup against offense all that much. HP Ice is a no-no too because the main reason for using Magnezone is to remove Steel-types like Ferrothorn and Scizor to give teammates more wiggle room.

That being said Magnezone is good because it can check a handful of things with Assault Vest, and it deals with Ferrothorn, Celesteela and Mega Scizor which are quite good right now. Ferrothorn has become a god since Spikes are so good, so Magnezone has been pulling its weight for me. It has a bit of flexibility so it can run Specs, or even meme Sub sets. Scarf is still usable but doesn't hold up well in practice. I've been using it to good effect right now but I don't know if I could justify a rise or a drop personally.

Also your Mawile calc is wrong. 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 128-151 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO

Whoops, my bad with the Mawile calc, you got me there. I screwed up the nature (Don't even ask me how I did that one.). The primary reason that I ran calcs with Choice Scarf is because that is actually the set that I personally use most often and have the most experience with, so I felt like I could back up my statements more with that. But anyways, I think there is a clear dividing line between a Pokemon like Bronzong and Magnezone. Bronzong is, in just about every set, a defensive pivot, meaning there are other determining factors for why it isn't so popular, primarily its lack of reliable recovery. Every time I've ever heard the guy discussed, it's always "He would be fantastic if only he wasn't worn down over time." That is a crucial flaw in Bronzong that goes further than just having a type weakness, (that's not me saying that's your argument for Magnezone moving up, it's just an example.) but rather, it is a problem that Bronzong can encounter in every single game, thus justifying a lower ranking. This kind of Achilles Heel is something that Magnezone doesn't really have, or at least, doesn't have as badly. The biggest thing holding Magnezone back is its atrocious base 60 speed, which, as you said, isn't necessarily fixed by Choice Scarf, but boasting 11 resistances and an immunity means that Magnezone can better combat this problem by making good predictions, while Bronzong would need to avoid most damage entirely in order to fix its problem. In a weird way, I think Magnezone is kinda like Mamoswine from gen 5. Mamo was popular in OU, and even saw some play in Ubers, because it was something of an anti-metagame Pokemon, able to check many top threats at the time, like Garchomp and Salamence. Going to modern day, I believe Magnezone should go up in the ladder for similar reasons, because it checks many threats that could otherwise have the potential to wreck havoc on a team. But maybe that's just my opinion. Thanks for responding :)